Thinking Anglicans

Morgan comments on the covenant

The Archbishop of Wales, Barry Morgan, has said that, while he supported the principle of an Anglican Covenant, he could not endorse the proposed version currently on the table.

See press release, Archbishop of Wales warns proposed Anglican Covenant could lead to exclusion.

See full text of his address, Talk to the Governing Body, September 2007. Here is an extract:

Three of the primates have also ordained bishops specifically to exercise ‘pastoral oversight’ in North America, and this has won the approval of a fourth primate, the Chair of the Covenant Design Group who has said that their consecrations could lead “towards a creation of a viable, stable and orthodox Anglican presence in the USA”. To intervene in the internal affairs of another province in this way has hitherto been regarded by the Communion as totally unacceptable. The Windsor report condemns such activities as did previous Lambeth resolutions. Although the primates in Tanzania also condemned these actions, they seemed to accept the fact that some primates did not feel able to refrain from such actions, until sufficient provision had been made, for what are regarded as faithful Anglicans in North America. That totally subverts the polity of the province concerned and Anglican ecclesiology in general, (if it happened in this province, we would not find it acceptable), but the primates seem to give it passive acceptance. The implementation of the Covenant will be in their hands, and they seemingly condone ‘the breaking of the bonds of affection’ in a very substantial way by some of their number. As they said in their press statement at Tanzania , “Those who have intervened believe it would be inappropriate to bring interventions to an end until there is change in the Episcopal Church”. They then go on to propose pastoral strategies with a pastoral council and a primatial vicar for the Episcopal Church to be in place by the end of September. That would possibly end interventions by individual primates but it would be a massive intervention in the affairs of the Episcopal Church by the primates as a body and all of this before a Covenant is even in place.

Moreover the primates at Tanzania went further. They said, “Pastoral needs are not limited to the Episcopal Church alone. Until a Covenant is secured, it may be appropriate for the Instruments of Communion to request the use of this or a similar scheme in other contexts should urgent pastoral needs arise”. In other words, there could be wholesale intervention by the primates in any province until a Covenant is in place and then obviously intervention by them again if any province was deemed to have breached the terms of that Covenant. Not surprisingly the Episcopal Church has refused such requests. In an attempt however to be irenic the Episcopal Church says, “The proposed pastoral scheme is injurious to the Episcopal Church but we pledge ourselves to find ways of meeting the pastoral concerns of the primates compatible with our own polity and canons”. In other words, before a Covenant is even established the primates are imposing deadlines and demands. What will happen if a Covenant were to be in place?

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drdanfee
drdanfee
13 years ago

Bravo, AB Morgan, and thanks to the Wales believers for so offering and modeling the out of fashion sort of traditional Anglican communities where this type of commentary can be published without trash talk, threats, and accusations of innate lack of orthodoxy that immediately evoke terrible questions about what sorts of punishments, and how heavy, must quickly be levied. We cultural communities who were perhaps once railroaded by the dreaming British and other European empires of a past century, are now loathe to repeat those painful subjegations of conscience, freedom, and body to fallible outside authorities who serve their own… Read more »

Anglicanus
Anglicanus
13 years ago

If Dr Williams is finding it all too much, could repeat the process and have THIS Archbishop of Wales come to Canterbury?

NP
NP
13 years ago

Oh no….so, Wales won’t sign up to the covenant…….there you, go, TEC Global’s sunday attendance can add to 0.9m in the US another 0.1m from Wales! TEC Global hits its 1m attendance on Sundays! OK, the nos do not indicate whether Morgan is right or not…..but I still do not want to follow the ideas of those who have failed for years to attract many people from within the church, let alone from outside. The WO issue is not the same as the current issue facing the communion as those for it made a biblical case for WO……we have never… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
13 years ago

Morgan “fears the draft – under consideration by all churches in the Anglican worldwide community – will lead to one voice on controversial issues, such as homosexuality, which members would have to sign up to or leave.” But, dear Mr Morgan and all those who do not yet understand, that is precisely the point of the covenant. Have no illusion, there are those who are blocking these developments not because they are further behind in the listening process, but because they consider the listening process in and of itself to be evil. Just as they consider that relaxing things so… Read more »

Stephen Roberts
Stephen Roberts
13 years ago

NP – I don’t get it. Covenant = good, Literal scriptual bible adherence = essential, Numbers in pews = sign of faithfulness and solid spirituality.

Rome has huge numbers, the power to punish dessenters / heretics and holds a “traditional” view on homosexuality. So what’s unique about Anglicanism that keeps you in the Anglican church?

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“I still do not want to follow the ideas of those who have failed for years to attract many people from within the church, let alone from outside.” And where did I read that the numbers in the diocese of Sydney Australia have DROPPED by 10%, despite +Jensen’s “bums in pews” compaign? And are you really saying that you would consider it right to follow someone who is popular with the world? “a biblical case for WO” No, there really isn’t a very strong Biblical case, actually. Your heroes certainly don’t accept one, they call it “fudge”. If you know… Read more »

C.B.
C.B.
13 years ago

NP – You miss the point. It’s NOT numbers. If Wales, Ireland and Scotland refuse the covenant as written, then England can NOT be far behind. It is a united front for the United Kingdom. The Anglican brand is theirs. Others who slam the name on their products are pretenders and a knock-off that will sell like hot cakes to masses of people no doubt, but like a cheap watch it will breakdown the minute you get it wet.

Pluralist
13 years ago

As Cheryl says, what is the point of a Covenant unless it restricts? This one is about a process, a process in which change is slowed down to the slowest common denominator when any province declares that an issue is controversial. I agree with Barry Morgan’s criticisms, but the Covenant is meant to do precisely what he does not want it to do. At the English General Synod, only the MCU and Church Society was against it, the latter because it was process based and not actually doctrinal. We had people voting for it because it would restrict, and voting… Read more »

dave p
13 years ago

“we have never had a biblical case for having adulterers or drunks as bishops or vicars.”

And yet we have literally *thousands* of them today and littered through the history of the church. Many of them are rectors of “conservative” parishes. One of the two network parishes in my Diocese called a rector who’s on his third or fourth wife.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

Dave P.,
To you with failing hands I pass the torch.

NP
NP
13 years ago

dave – I would not justify those rectors being in leadership positions either…..prefer to stick with what the bible says qualifies people for leadership than to compromise with people.

Ford – biblical case for WO – as I have said before, John Stott has written very well on this. (“Issues Facing Christians Today” is his book)

Ford – have you read these articles from O’Donovan?
http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/page.cfm?ID=130
Thought you might appreciate them….

BobinSwPA
BobinSwPA
13 years ago

I applaud AB Morgan. The world is never going to be black and white. There will always be shades of grey. If we don’t learn to live in a church that accepts, “we’re not always going to agree on everything,” then how do we expect the world to do it??? Until we learn to live in disagreement bombings, wars, etc… will continue. NP: I go to a small non network parish in the diocese of Pittsburgh. Yes, it would be nice to have a few more members but, at least I’m not lost in the crowd. At my old network… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
13 years ago

Queers Folks=Drunks. What’s curious about that equation? Doesn’t it just sound right? Isn’t it so self-evident that nobody needs to keep asking questions? Well, for one thing – even taken without further inquiry on its own clever sound bite terms – it is way too simple and way too easy: a sound bite, simple to the point of dull ignorance, duh. Even being a drunk is complicated according to our best knowledge these days. We are currently using multiple empirical perspectives – i.e., models like the disease, social learning, cognitive-behavioral, and biopsychosocial models , to start, start, our growing better… Read more »

David H.
13 years ago

Ahhhh yes, NP. How silly of me. If I want to discern right from wrong, or discover the truth in a theological issue, all I have to do is count the numbers on each side !

It’s so simple! Wonder why I didn’t think of it before ?! I shall now become an atheistic Communist (China) – or if I can’t live w/o religion, a Hindu (India).

Jerry Hannon
Jerry Hannon
13 years ago

“Oh no….so, Wales won’t sign up to the covenant…….there you, go, TEC Global’s sunday attendance can add to 0.9m in the US another 0.1m from Wales! TEC Global hits its 1m attendance on Sundays” Gee whiz, NP simply forgot about Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Brazil, Mexico, South Africa, New Zealand, most of Australia, half to two-thirds of England, plus parts of several other Provinces. But, NP, it’s not going to be “TEC Global;” it’s going to be the true, historic, continuing, Anglican Communion. The rest will have to decide whether they want to be linked up with the new Calvinist pretend-Anglican-Communion… Read more »

ettu
ettu
13 years ago

I rather like examples from nature – specifically biology – and when it comes to uniformity (a la a covenant) versus diversity what springs to mind is monoculture with all its attendant risks of crop failure and insect susceptibility versus the multiplicity of plants found in nature. Perhaps NP would be more comfortable with a genetically cloned faith where diversity is non-existent – although reliance on chemical fertilizers and pesticides increases under that scenario – the religious analogy would be the weeding that was done by the Inquisition to maintain the uniformity of that period in history. Personally I believe… Read more »

Malcolm+
Malcolm+
13 years ago

Things created are always and inevitably shaped by the circumstances of their creation. Thus, any covenant created in the midst of a crisis will be shaped (mishapen, deformed) by the crisis.

Had the proposed covenant arisen out of charity rather than vengeance, it might well have been a covenant that was all about restriction. But because it arose in the context of power politics, it is all about power.

Damn the Covenant. And I mean “damn” entirely literally. Its original proponents may have been honest in their goal. It’s authors have produced a devilish deceit.

Viriato da Silva
Viriato da Silva
13 years ago

Clearly, both Anglicanism in general, and the Communion in particular, would be so much better off had *this* Archbishop of Wales been the one made Archbishop of Canterbury . . .

Cheryl Clough
13 years ago

King David was an adulterer, Noah was a drunk, Moses a murderer… But they were good enough to do what God wanted them to do. The wonder of God is not that God makes us perfect, but that God is capable of using us despite our inadequacies. Plus there are times that our inadequacies actually help manifest and communicate an understanding e.g. Job’s losses and bankruptcy did not take away his love of God nor his trust in God, and God continued to love Job, even though God did rebuke Job for thinking he understood God better than others. Then… Read more »

counterlight
counterlight
13 years ago

Anyone submitting nominees to be ordained Episcopal bishops in Nigeria, Uganda, Zimbabwe, the Southern Cone, Singapore, and Sydney? I’m certain that there are Anglicans stranded in those places who would love to have the alternative pastoral oversight of bishops ordained by ++Schori.

If the conservatives get alternative pastoral oversight, then how about us? How about a special primatial vicar for LGBTs who can offer something more in the way of pastoral care beyond funerals and house blessings (or in the case of cerain other countries, arrests, beatings, and excorcisms)?

Bob in SW PA
Bob in SW PA
13 years ago

“King David was an adulterer, Noah was a drunk, Moses a murderer… But they were good enough to do what God wanted them to do. The wonder of God is not that God makes us perfect, but that God is capable of using us despite our inadequacies.” Amen Cheryl. If we were perfect we would not run after God, we’d have no need of God. I think God knew this. If we adopt a convenant how do we undo it when we find out it isn’t what we wanted??? Sometimes it’s better not to decide or as my rector says,… Read more »

NP
NP
13 years ago

Cheryl – David never taught it was to be an adulterer and Noah never taught it was ok for drunks to be in ministry…..this is the difference. As I said above, nos per se do not prove right or wrong but it is a bit rich expecting most of the AC to be led by a declining minority….. this is exactly why the liberal ABC has given us (wait for it…..) Dromantine, TWR and Tanzania. I like the liberal ABC’s choice of ++Gomez to be in charge of the coveanant process…..again, this indicates where most of the AC is in… Read more »

Stephen Roberts
Stephen Roberts
13 years ago

Cheryl – thank you for your post – exactly “on the money”. Sinner, saint or satsuma, God works through us all *as we are*. NP – Seeing as you’ve ignored my question the first time, I’ll ask again. Why do you bother to be Anglican when we’re all so obviously damned in your eyes? What is unique to being Anglican that means you’re in the AC rather than the RC, Baptist or any other church? Which Anglican values do you hold dear? I’ve read plenty of your posts telling people what and who isn’t Anglican, but nothing of what being… Read more »

NP
NP
13 years ago

Dear Ford

I thought you would like this a lot
http://covenant-communion.com/?page_id=152

I have to agree with this man’s rebuke (from scripture) to us all and it is similar to what you have been saying for ages

NP
NP
13 years ago

Stephen Roberts – sorry, just saw your question to me…..the answer is that I have no issues with Articles, the creeds, Lambeth 1.10, TWR, the Tanzania Communique or ++Gomez being in charge of drafting the new covenant PLUS I am very comforatble with the views of the vast majority of the AC ……. so it is very easy for me (and people like +Duncan) to want to be Anglican! The more interesting question is why does the current leadership of TEC want to stay in the AC so desperately – but on the condition that they do not have to… Read more »

Cheryl Clough
13 years ago

NP

You are right

“David never taught it was to be an adulterer and Noah never taught it was ok for drunks to be in ministry”

Neither David nor Noah taught.

Who were Jesus’ major enemies? The ones who ensured he was crucified on the cross? Those who taught. The Teachers of the Law.

Do a word search on a computer bible, there are too many passages for me to bother listing here, and I would merely be repeating previous postings.

dave p
13 years ago

Tiny minority, NP? As Jerry Hannon notes above, you might want to consider that, while TEC is the current whipping boy, the following are actually much in agreement:

“Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Brazil, Mexico, South Africa, New Zealand, most of Australia, half to two-thirds of England, plus parts of several other Provinces.”

Luigi and the boys will be round to keep them in line later, I guess (once the straitjacket, I mean, Coveneant, is in place).

And let’s not forget a significant portion of the CofE too. It will be interesting to see how that plays out on home soil.

Stepehn Roberts
Stepehn Roberts
13 years ago

NP – I’m not sure you have the gist of my question. “In the light of other christian denominations and traditions, why be Anglican?”

For my part, I am a member of the CofE because it is a reformed, catholic church. A church which has uses a combination of scripture, tradition and reason to evaluate its mission and God’s will (insofar anybody can determine God’s will).

So, I’ll ask again… Why Anglican (before all this kicked-off)?

counterlight
counterlight
13 years ago

May I make another modest proposal on what appears to be turning into NP’s blog. So, ignoring him completely… If the Communion is unified on the backs of LGBTs, then I’ll assume they don’t want my sodomite money. How about a big fat LGBT financial boycott? This whole madness is being driven by Western money. Perhaps LGBTs should hang on to their (not exactly tiny) share of that Western money. Why not borrow a page from the Consev playbook and say “no taxation without representation!”? Why should we bankroll our oppressors and their enablers? Maybe we could set up some… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“I have no issues “ So you’re an Anglican because you don’t have issues with Anglicanism, not because you believe any particular Anglican ethos? See, that’s the difference between you and me, I have huge issues with some of the things being done by the Church or some portions of it, and with the nasty behaviour of some of our leaders, but I am an Anglican because I believe that the “Anglican Way” for want of a better term, is a good expression of Christianity. It seeks, like Paul, to be all things to all people, as far as possible,… Read more »

L Roberts
L Roberts
13 years ago

‘…..the answer is that I have no issues with Articles, the creeds, Lambeth 1.10, TWR, the Tanzania Communique or ++Gomez being in charge of drafting the new covenant PLUS I am very comforatble with the views of the vast majority of the AC ……. so it is very easy for me (and people like +Duncan) to want to be Anglican!’

So many impossible things before breakfsst !

Colin Coward
13 years ago

NP, not long now before you discover that the hopes you have placed in TWR, Tanzania Communique, Lambeth 1.10, the ABC, are dashed. TEC won’t be humiliated, the Communion won’t break up. TEC is not a tiny minority, Archbishop Gomez is deeply compromised. The Archbishop is trying to persuade his very reluctant global south colleagues to come along to Lambeth with him (because he has to be there) and there they will be, along with TEC and Canada. If you have read Gregory Cameron’s article, you will understand that none of the edifices on which you put your trust, and… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“How about a big fat LGBT financial boycott?”

My answer would be absolutely not. I cannot accept not giving to the work of the Church just because I didn’t get my way in something, whatever that something is. I might give it all to PWRDF or something, so that I can know that I am lending to the Lord, but not give at all? I feel it would just as wrong for me to do that as it is for the Consevos who seem to think that Church teaching can be bought in that fashion.

Cheryl Clough
13 years ago

Hi Counterlight I’m not sure you meant “…I still want to see Alternative Primatial Oversight for LGBTs.” Looking at what Primates seem to become, there are some who are thinking the Presbyterians did the right thing by getting rid of that layer of bureaucracy. Get a gang of guys together who’ve been given “authority” and the power mongerers will see how far they can take that “authoritative position” and how they can entrench their cronyism. Actually, I think what you are asking for is some kind of Communion that welcomes and is genuinely hospitable to GLBTs, their friends and families.… Read more »

Merseymike
Merseymike
13 years ago

Ford ; your compromising will never work. There bis no middle way. Its equality and inclusivity or nothing.

I stopped giving money to the church years ago. I don;t actively support institutionally homophobic organisations, and currently the CofE is in that category.

NP
NP
13 years ago

Stephen Roberts – I love it…… people don’t want to answer the question about why be Anglican when doing so involves bringing chaos to the AC, trying to force it to accept a radical position accepted by few even in the AC…..but want to ask people like me who are in line with the articles, creeds and scriptures of the AC why we are Anglican!!! I am not compromising or operating “don’t ask don’t tell” policies or deliberately subverting the church by being Anglican….ask those who are doing these things why they are Anglican…..that is more of a question. Ask… Read more »

counterlight
counterlight
13 years ago

Might I suggest a solution that tenants in this country use when they get into fights with their landlords, and Roman Catholics use when they get into fights with their bishops: escrow accounts. It is possible to fund charitable and pastoral services without bishops and other hierarchs getting their sticky fingers on the money and using it to fund campaigns to disenfranchise some of the donors. I see no reason why any sane self-respecting LGBT should ever write out a check from their earnings to fund the likes of ++Akinola, +Iker, or +Duncan. And if LGBTs are to bear the… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“trying to force it to accept a radical position” So why are you trying to do this? You are forcing a radical “Bible only”, anti-liturgy, restrictive, radical Evangelical Protestant agenda on a Church that has always considered Herself reformed Catholic and broadly accepting. We have always sat the fence between Rome and Geneva. You are seeking to place us solidly on the Protestant side. But you aren’t consistent. On the one hand, you idolize the reformers, yet you are willing to sacrifice the principles they died for and have a new “pseudopope’ as long as that forwards your agenda. This… Read more »

NP
NP
13 years ago

Ford – you are over-reacting, mate.

Remember, I am not alone…..
– Neither I, +Duncan nor ++Akinola are forcing any change on the AC but just asking those who want to be vicars and bishops keep to the requirements of the bible AND the AC for people in leadership positions;
-ALL the Primates of the AC issued the Tanzania Communique you know – it was not just ++Akinola or nasty NP making demands!

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
13 years ago

“I fear you have made the Bible into far more of a graven image than anything you may think about icons.”

Hear, hear. NP’s attitude toward the Bible is closer to the Islamic belief about the Koran than anything I’ve ever encountered in most of Christianity, let alone the Anglican tradition.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“nasty NP making demands!”

NP, TEC isn’t forcing anything on anybody. Explain, please.

“keep to the requirements of the bible AND the AC for people in leadership positions”

And why is it that they do not need to keep these requirements themselves?

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