Thinking Anglicans

Zimbabwe goings-on

Updated Friday evening

Pat Ashworth reports in the Church Times that Harare Anglicans are urged to stand up to Kunonga.

George Conger reports in the Church of England Newspaper that Central Africa Issues Ultimatum to Kunonga.

And he also has Provincial Leaders Tell Harare Bishop to Resign in the Living Church.

Episcopal News Service reports CENTRAL AFRICA: Provincial dean declares two Zimbabwe dioceses of Harare and Manicaland vacant.

See also these reports on Episcopal Café Harare chancellor warns diocese and Kunonga must go, say provincial leaders.

19 comments

  • Ford Elms says:

    “the Diocese of Harare disassociates itself ….sympathises or compromises with homosexuality.”

    Let there be no mistake about motives here. The diocese will have nothing to do with anyone who “sympathises” with homosexuality. Can any Conservative Evangelical comfort my fears on reading this? Can anyone give me the pastoral care that will make me not fear how this will make gay people suffer there? Can any of them prove to me that this is NOT what they want for this part of the world, and that, given the chance, they will not do exactly the same thing here? I doubt it. After all, he’s on their side. I predict that the response, if any, will be about me overreacting, etc. etc., with no intent whatsoever to understand why the threat of this is so real for a North American gay man. So much for listening.

    “was Bishop Kunonga’s election campaign manager, and was rewarded with ordination and the post of diocesan secretary “

    Leaving aside the comment about a criminal record, repentance is possible for everyone after all, I think the idea that the bishop had a ‘campaign manager’ pretty much says it all. If he thinks the episcoptae is something to be campaigned for, then perhaps he ought not to be a bishop?

  • Blessing to Bishop Chama, and may God bring peace in this troubled corner of the Garden.

    And in the meantime, perhaps, after all the allegations of too much “advice” from North Americans to Africans, this African can offer some advice to North Americans: to wit, a diocese cannot (either in Central Africa, or in the Episcopal Church) simply withdraw and walk away.

  • Prior Aelred says:

    The departure of this known criminal is past due (IMHO) — mind you, he can’t take the diocese with him (CCCP take note)!

  • Ford Elms says:

    “Can any Conservative Evangelical comfort my fears on reading this? Can anyone give me the pastoral care that will make me not fear how this will make gay people suffer there?”

    Day three since I asked, and still not one Evangelical has stepped up to the plate. Glad to see the “listening process” provided you all with such great resources for ministering to gay people!

  • NP says:

    Sorry Ford – had not read this thread as my post on it never showed…..I said on that post that I thought what we are seeing is someone looking for an excuse to avoid discipline from ++Malango

    No, it is hard to trust the chap in Harare.
    What you see is an excuse for him to split with ++Malango…….. because, I think, what you are seeing is the result of ++Malango disciplining the guy. In African culture, the discipline would have been in private (eg Mbeki in South Africa never criticising Mugabe in public)

    Now, you will not agree with ++Malango on certain issues but I am sure you will see that it is ridiculous that the chap in Harare splits with ++Malango for his liberal views! The crook is just covering his tracks.

  • Ford Elms says:

    NP,
    And this constitutes an answer to my request in what respect, precisely? In that you completely miss the point, you show again how much benefit you would have gained from the listening process that you DIDN’T carry out! You are so oblivious to what it is that frightens gay people, why it is we don’t trust you, that you can’t even answer a question that is clearly spelled out! Go back to my original post and read it again, then answer my question, if you can figure it out.

  • NP says:

    Ford – maybe you should re-read my post.

    ++Malango appears to be discipling the supposed bishop in Harare….. to defend himself, he is using an issue as a smokescreen.

    The chap in Harare is a bad egg. I said months ago that he should be removed…… I am not the type who thinks a bishop’s teaching an life does not matter,you see. He is not invited to Lambeth. Calling on people who are not associated with him to defend him is not a strong point….. and certainly does not weaken the case for sticking to Lambeth 1.10

    I note it is very hard for some people to aknowledge that ++Malango may be doing a good thing here…. and that it is ridiculous for the chap in Harare to claim ++Malango is going TEC’s way on certain issues!

  • Ford Elms says:

    NP,
    You are totally missing my point, thereby proving that you haven’t done any listening at all, ever. The bishop made some very scary statements. They jumped out at me, yet you don’t register them despite it being explained to you. This proves that have not listened to gay people at all, and really don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to gay issues. Violence is a real part of our lives. We do not trust that conservatives, given half a chance, would not hang us from the nearest tree. Your side have been doing it to us for a very long time, it still happens, even in Western society, often as a result of conservative Evo preaching against us, and in many of the places that are now actively seeking to break up the Church, jailing or killing us is at least encouraged among the general public, and in some cases is law. Frankly, I don’t trust you people. You support, vehemently, people who would be only too willing to jail or kill me. You aren’t terribly concerned when someone kills one of us. Many of you deny the reality of gay bashing, while you don’t even know who Matthew Shepard is, or why his murder has become something of an icon. I can, and do, imagine you getting all worked up after an hour or more of some preacher yelling from the pulpit about how the gays are destroying the family and God has hardened our hearts and left us in sin. It wouldn’t take much for a mob of you thus worked up and full of the Glory to kick me to death and think you do God service. You have given me no evidence that you understand this fear, you will no doubt deny that I have any right to this fear, or that maybe some of the things you say and do, both you personally and you Evos collectively cause this fear, and will certainly deny how your actions contribute to a situation where such things can happen. And you expect me to believe you have “listened” to gay people? Normal up!

  • NP says:

    How many times….the chap in Harare is corrupt….I really do not have to defend him. ++Malango appears to be getting rid of him.

    (I am the guy who does not support keeping the unfit bishops in place, remember? SO, you ask me to defend a guy I would have removed years ago?)

    Are you now associating English and US conserveratives with Kunonga even though there is no relationship? (Waging war as the world does, Ford, smearing your “enemies”?)

    Listening? I do listen to the “clobber verses”, Ford. They have some authority which is greater than both sides of this debate

  • Ford Elms says:

    NP,
    LOL. How can you not get a point that is so clearly spelled out for you? You go on and on about defending/condemning Kunonga. I haven’t even breathed anything about that. I am pointing out the kinds of things that Evangelicals do and say that makes gay people fear them, that endanger our lives! You have not even addressed the issue. Do you seriously believe that any of my posts on this thread have been about Kunonga’s fitness or lack thereof to be a bishop?

  • Ford Elms says:

    NP,
    I don’t know how much longer Simon willl tolerate this derailment, but perhaps I’ll get another kick at the can. It occurs to me I might have been a bit harsh. You seem to have blundered on to the wrong thread and then gotten so excited about locking horns with me that you haven’t noticed! You appear to have been having a discussion with someone about the relative fitness of Malango and Konunga to be bishops, who then asked you to defend one of them. It wasn’t me, as you know, I don’t believe it to be my right to say who the Spirit wants shepherding the flock. So, someone out there in cyberspace asked you to defend someone you don’t like and is waiting for your reply. Now, if you want to talk about why gay people don’t trust Evangelicals, while I derailed the thread in bringing it up, I’m glad to explain as long as Simon lets me. As to the fitness of people to be bishops, I don’t feel I have the right to comment, so you’ll have better luck going back to whoever it was you were discussing that with in the first place.

  • NP says:

    Ford you say both that you are not asking anyone to defend the chap in Harare but also ask above “Can any Conservative Evangelical comfort my fears on reading this? Can anyone give me the pastoral care that will make me not fear how this will make gay people suffer there?”

    Why ask a “Conservative Evangelical” these questions?

    Are you trying to associate opposition to condoning behaviour “incompatible with scripture” and Kunonga? I would hope you are not doing that.

    Noticed a Conservative Evangelical Archbishop seems to be getting rid of the chap in Harare? But you ask some “Conservative Evangelical” to give you assurances about someone who most of us do not think is fit to be a bishop and who is not under our control – why ask us this?

  • NP

    You seem to have missed the news that Abp Malango has now retired.

    As to whether he was a “conservative evangelical” I am doubtful.

  • Ford Elms says:

    “why ask us this?”

    I think I’ve been pretty clear why I ask this. I do not trust you. Simple. There is a group, not all of them Evangelicals, and not all EVos are a part of that group, who believe and preach slanderous lies about gay people as though they were fact, who demonize and revile us and call us animals, who defend jailing us for 5 years as though that were merciful, who deny their role in gay bashing, some even deny it exists, yet who do not know the person whose death has become an icon of anti-gay violence. These people receive money from billionaires who publically advocate stoning us. They claim that lifelong celebacy is no more rigorous than remaining faithful to a wife one presumably loves and respects, or even no worse than turning down a second piece of dessert! You defend these people. You even believe these things yourself. You have made common cause with poeple who put my life in danger. Let me ask you, are you afraid to go to Nigeria? I am. I wouldn’t set foot there, it’s too dangerous for me. You defend the peple who cause that. You, indeed, see nothing worng with depriving me of rights anyone else takes for granted, indeed, you consider YOUR rights infringed if you are prevented from descriminating against me! Many of you practice a religion based on emotion rather than reason, and I have no trouble at all imagining a group of Evos whipped up by some emotional preaching amd full of the Glory beating me to death for the greater glory of God. The thing is you will be all offended at this and try to deny and defend yourself rather than give any thought to why I feel this way, what you do that confirms these suspicions, and how you can rectify the situation. I am an evil fag who God has abandoned to his sins. He has hardened my heart, that’s why I won’t respond to your insults and dehumanizing of me and repent and grovel. You won’t even consider that your demonizing, dehumanizing, and reviling of me is what has caused the situation. That would mean you had perhaps done something wrong, the you wouldn’t be able to feel so much holier than subhuman me, I guess.

  • NP says:

    Simon – +Malango was involved with the last meetings which Junonga effectively walked out of – was he not?

    Ford – I would be marching with you against anybody who used words like “animals” or promoted violence……
    What I am objecting to is any attempt to link Kunonga et al with “Conservative Evangelical” views in general when he is not representative.
    Unless you can show Kunonga has support from the Network or Reform, it is not right to taint conservatives by association with someone we would have removed from office a long time ago.

    Ford – I respond to you with respect. I give links to academic articles because I respect your thinking and knowledge. I have said repeatedly that I respect you….. but now you say “You won’t even consider that your demonizing, dehumanizing, and reviling of me is what has caused the situation.”

    I think you should retract that, Ford….I have never dehumanised, demonised or reviled you – if you think I have, pls show me where.

    And even if I have not but you feel I have, I am sorry you feel like that – honestly. But unless you can show how I have dehumanised, demonised or reviled you, pls retract that allegation as I believe it is not true.

  • choirboyfromhell says:

    So these are two dioceses that are surely Windsor “compliant”. Yeah.

    So let’s get on with preaching selected verses of scripture, and wonder why the injustice of it all seems to be crashing down on our heads.

    The evangelicals have picked a loser, plain and simple.

  • NP says:

    choirboy…..says “The evangelicals have picked a loser, plain and simple.”…….

    OK, no evos in the US or the UK are linked with Kunonga…but you assert a link…..so, we should drop Lambeth 1.10 immediately?

    Do show me where the Network or Reform or even Akinola objected to the ABC not inviting Kunonga to Lambeth 08? Since you link the two, I guess you have some evidence and are not merely trying to smear conservatives???

    You and others in the last decades cannot make the case and persuade many in the CofE that certain behaviour is not “incompatible with scripture”….so you have to resort to bizarre smear tactics as above…..not convincing, you realist that, right?

  • Ford Elms says:

    “I would be marching with you against anybody who used words like “animals” or promoted violence”

    Not true. You claim +Akinola’s push to jail us was “consistent with Scripture”. Or do you see unjust imprisonment that may well lead to the person being murdered as somehow not ‘violent’? I responded to this, but was probably too intense. You have frequently accused me of “picking and choosing” the parts of Scripture I follow. You have repeatedly accused me of trying to justify sin by claiming others sin too, despite my repeated clarifications. You have repeatedly scorned me among the number of those whose Churches you believe are dwindling because they are “liberal”. So, ‘demonizing’? No. I apologize for that word. Dehumanized? Well, you think if +Akinola jailed me he would be “consistent”, so you believe my gayness is jailable. Sounds dehumanizing to me, but maybe I’m being too sensitive, so I apologize for that word too. But revile? Oh, yes, I think I just pointed out how you do that frequently. You can’t say you respect me, then turn around and scorn my beliefs, NP, and I just finished a post responding to your scorn about my beliefs on the Eucharist. And do I need to refer to your ideas about me praying to “Jesus’s mum”?

  • Ford Elms says:

    “smear conservatives”

    NP, this isn’t about “smearing” anybody. Whether ior not Conservative Evangelicals formally support them is immaterial. They clearly think the same way when it comes, for instance, to gay people. That is my point. If you (conservatives in general) are willing to slander me, to lie about me, to claim a right to discriminate against me, to say I am “not fit” to serve God, to approve of jailing me, then why should I have any trust in you? Why should I listen when you tell me to obey a God who you claim gives you the right to treat me like this? You claim the Scriptures say I will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. You may well be right. But then you think this gives you the right to do all these other things. Do you seriously think that the clobber verses, even if they are interpreted they way you want them to be, give you the right to behave like this? You probably do, you already claim a Scriptural justification for judgementalism.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *