Thinking Anglicans

American news reports on secessionists

Today, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette has this article by Ann Rogers: Secession sends churches into unknown territory.

And last Friday the Ridgecrest Daily Indpendent in California had Split in world church could mean change for local parish by Ruth Justis.

Earlier last month, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram had Episcopal diocese takes step to cut ties by Terry Goodrich.

In a related development, Episcopal News Service recently published Executive Council committee chairs respond to retired bishops’ open letters which references the detailed response given (PDF file) to “a pair of open letters written last summer by a group of retired bishops, demanding a “public report” of the cost of litigation over breakaway groups attempting to take the Episcopal Church’s property”. The article also gives some background on the earlier actions of those retired bishops.

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drdanfee
drdanfee
13 years ago

Well one blessing of the ENS background summary elements is just that these historical bits show that the efforts to divide were being carried out, clearly, well ahead of the consecration of VGR of New Hampshire. In fact, the most recent waves of that special conservative dissent in favor of the realignment campaigning are revealed to us as simply the gathering forceful ebbs and flows of those prior new conservative rigors which started so long before – cannot agree to disagree because the scriptures are read only one simple negative way, cannot agree to leeway in believer spiritual pilgrimage because… Read more »

David Wh.
David Wh.
13 years ago

Of so loving… the liberal Episcopal hierarchy persecute orthodox Christians by the diocese-full. This must be a first in ecclesiatical history!?

Why doesn’t Archbishop Rowan speak out clearly against their un-Christian attitudes and practices? It would really undermine TEC; probably stop them dead in their tracks at last.

Simon Sarmiento
13 years ago

David Wh.
Could you please give us a concrete example of what you mean by “persecute orthodox Christians”. I will assume that “diocese-full” is hyperbole, and settle for a specific example of a particular individual.
Thanks

Prior Aelred
13 years ago

I have the highest regard for Jan Nunley, but if my memory serves me correctly, the report is misleading in that Bishops Allison & Dickson, while present & supportive, did not actually participate in the laying on of hands in the consecration of the original AMiA bishops. This sticks in my memory because this meant that the consecrations failed to meet the canonical requirements of Nicea (i.e., at least three bishops). Why they acted as they did in this schismatic act (according to Lord Carey) mystified me then & continues to do so.

Lou Poulain
Lou Poulain
13 years ago

David Wh.

Oh, Please! I am so tired of reading about “persecution of orthodox Christians.” I second Simon. Examples are in order.

Lou

choirboyfromhell
choirboyfromhell
13 years ago

Yes, yes, we are Rite Two’ing them to death and causing so much pain. Nobody required you to hire a female cleric at your parish, made you use Rite II or consecrate a gay bishop for your diocese. Nobody told you to turn the high altar around. You can still live in your own little world and the local bishop, if they’re smart won’t bother you. Then again nobody required you to use an overhead projector for your non-1983, Lift Every Voice and Sing, and Wonder Love and Praise Hymns. Nobody deign upon you to stand to pray with your… Read more »

JPM
JPM
13 years ago

They’re persecuting orthodox Christians now? Oh my–His All-Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew is not going to be happy about this!

Pluralist
13 years ago

I thought David Wh. was being doubly ironic, on the liberals are persecuting and one wave by the Archbishop to bring such to a halt. Trouble with irony is you’re never sure.

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
13 years ago

Seems to me that the Exec Council statement is precise and factual. It is well documented and to the point. T

he accusations had begun – just a little – to start to sound like the bogus and hateful “Protocals [sp? it’s late here!] of the Elders of Zion.”

I hope the people who wrote the letters that elicited the sane and rational response from Exec Council will cease and desist [wow! that sounds like lawyer-talk!] from further spreading their lies.

Anthony
Anthony
13 years ago

As is often the case with those of the conservative bent, or the “neo-orthodox” – rather than fight for what Jesus actually taught, and preached, they idolize a 1950’s praxis based on hyperbole wishing to exist in a state of continual persecution.

It’s easier to fight a “they” than to face that fact that injustice is indeed more orthodox, but much more difficult to explain, or grasp. Dialectic thinking is very difficult, so lets role the clock back to a time when the bad guys were easy to spot.

Mark Wharton
Mark Wharton
13 years ago

Simon Sarmiento asked David Wh. to provide concrete evidence as to how orthodox Christians are persecuted and I would like to give him some. This is another contributer and not David Wh. 1)The refusal to ordain young men and old who cannot accept either the ordination of women or the ordination of active Homosexual Bishops! 2) The undermining by Liberal Bishops of Traditionalist Parishes, this includes law suits and action against Priest who cannot receive communion from women Bishops. 3) The refusal to grant any adequate provision to those Parishes who cannot accept the ministry of women priests and bishops… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

1) Ordination is no right, but done (if at all) on a Personal basis only. Not because of “views”.

2) Specific details, please!

3) Specific details, please!

4) Specific details, please!

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
13 years ago

” … active Homosexual Bishops!” Since the only out gay bishop in TEC is Gene Robinson, and he has not, to my knowledge, tried to bish anywhere but New Hampshire, I am puzzled by this writer’s list of persecutions.

I certainly am repelled by the activities and pronouncements of Bishops Scofield and Duncan, for example, and am thankful not to be in their dioceses, but it would be more than a little paranoid of me to feel ‘persecuted’ by them.

Malcolm+
13 years ago

(1) Details? I certainly no of people ordained who are opposed to the ordination of women. I know of some who weren’t because of how they conducted themselves. (ie, It is one thing to miss the communion at the start of the deanery clericus because a woman priest was presiding. It is merely rude to miss it because a woman priest would be present.) (2) The only lawsuits and actions I’m aware of involve priests purporting to remove their parishes (and the property) from the Episcopal Church – and that is why the lawsuits are happening. There are countless traditionalist… Read more »

choirboyfromhell
choirboyfromhell
13 years ago

Where Mark Wharton, is that specific parish that got sued by their bishop for not taking communion from a female priest? The decision in receiving communion is a private matter period. Always has been.

You want a provision to engage in discrimination? Get real.

Want is Universal Catholic Truth? Who wrote it? Did I miss something in the thirty-nine articles? My catechism? The Creeds?

My uncle, an oilman who worked near to were you probably live would dismiss this as a bunch “whoey”!

Prior Aelred
13 years ago

I know of plenty of cases of “liberal” parishes in “conservative” dioceses & vice versa who manage to get along — just the way it always has been in The Episcopal Church — this puritan “hate” (see 1984) is a new thing — I never saw it before Trinity was established in PA — lots of jokes about High Church & Low Church (& “being able to get to heaven but not knowing what to do when they get there”) but not this hate!

JCF
JCF
13 years ago

DavidWh and Mark Warton:

I really wish I could personally end your persecution…

…complex. But Jesus can, and I will pray for your healing.

Lord have mercy!

choirboyfromhell
choirboyfromhell
13 years ago

Absolutely agree Prior Aelred, this is ridiculous and I wish some would grow up and move on.

Merseymike
Merseymike
13 years ago

Its quite amusing when challenging the right to discriminate is labelled as ‘persecution’

Simon Sarmiento
13 years ago

Mark
I have to say I don’t find any of your assertions about “persecution” at all convincing, yet. Can you be more specific, or are you just trying to wind us up?

Mark Wharton
Mark Wharton
13 years ago

Simon Sarmiento, I am not trying to wind you up! I have recently visited an Episcopal Diocese, the Diocese is Orthodox. I met parishes and clergy who told me of their first hand experience of persecution from the presiding Bishop and persecution and derision from Bishops out of the Diocese. It is an offence in several diocese in America to refuse to take communion from a woman priest: This is a fact! There have been many, many men refused ordination in the American Church, I heard an excellent talk by Bishop Keith Ackerman SSC on this at the FIF assembly… Read more »

Erika Baker
Erika Baker
13 years ago

“It is an offence in several diocese in America to refuse to take communion from a woman priest: This is a fact!”

Could you please provide some evidence for this?

Simon Sarmiento
13 years ago

“It is an offence in several diocese in America to refuse to take communion from a woman priest: This is a fact!” I have really no idea what you mean by this. I am trying, very hard, to understand what you are getting at. What, exactly, do you mean by “offence” and how would it be determined that such an event had occurred? What penalty is applied, and by whom? As to ordinations yes, I do believe you that it is very difficult for persons who take a position against WO to get accepted in some American dioceses. If you… Read more »

choirboyfromhell
choirboyfromhell
13 years ago

“It is an offence in several diocese in America to refuse to take communion from a woman priest: This is a fact!” What canon law states this? What parish by-law? How would anybody know that not taking communion was for personal reasons other than from a female celebrant? No, the liberal wing is not innocent; I have stated on previous occasions since the 1960’s at changing words from “ghost” to “spirit” in the Gloria Patri got the ball rolling. Liberal insensitivity has been horrendous at times. And yes, the same people tend to be active over the years in the… Read more »

Stephen Roberts
Stephen Roberts
13 years ago

Summarising Mark Wharton’s post: “I went to some place in the USA and some people told me that some bishops and some clergy were persecuting them and refusing ordination to some people. And some people have told me off for my (unspecified) views in England. This means that liberals are nasty” You may wish to read the linked pages before replying. It will save you repeating the fallacies of your current argument. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ “I have recently visited an Episcopal Diocese, the Diocese is Orthodox.” *Which* diocese – without the name, you deprive us of context and leave yourself open to… Read more »

mark wharton
mark wharton
13 years ago

Simon Sarmiento: I believe from my friends in the Diocese of Newyork, whose parish priest is a member of FIF, that the church wardens are required to report to the Bishop that they have seen thier priest receive communion from a woman priest. I can only go on thier word. Also “As to ordinations yes, I do believe you that it is very difficult for persons who take a position against WO to get accepted in some American dioceses. If you choose to call this persecution, well ok, but that is not what I would call it” What would you… Read more »

mark wharton
mark wharton
13 years ago

If those “persecuted” conduct themselves anything like the uber-pure who have been refused ordination in CofE, I’m not surprised the Diocesan has refused ordination” What do you mean by this? I have read the article and would support this stance; luckily the flying Bishops in England prevent catholic ordiands from having to refuse ordination due to the stance of the Bishop! I am presuming that Stephen Roberts would be unhappy at the prospect of an orthodox ordained being ordained but would be happy for a divorced now gay man to be Bishop of New Hampshire? It is time for integrity… Read more »

Simon Sarmiento
13 years ago

Mark Wharton
I would call that “discrimination”.

I would use “persecution” to mean something along the following lines:

“the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights contrary to international law by reason of the identity of the group or collectivity;’

or as answers.com suggests:

The term “persecution” derives from the vocabulary of religion and was used to describe the torture and torments inflicted on the early Christians martyrs. In everyday usage, it characterizes all relationships in which one party, the persecutor, pursues the other, the persecuted, with malevolent intentions, cruelty, and hatefulness.

Stephen Roberts
Stephen Roberts
13 years ago

I didn’t mention +Robinson, it is a puritanical obsession with “spiritual purity” and “orthodoxy” that causes you to introduce him here. I’m not in a position to judge Gene Robinson’s suitability as a bishop, and frankly, neither are you. “I am presuming that Stephen Roberts would be unhappy at the prospect of an orthodox ordained being ordained” You presume too much. If an ordinand passes diocesan and national selection, and is suitable to the satisfaction of their bishop (i.e. the one who will be ordaining them), then I trust that the spirit has worked through the discernment process and that… Read more »

choirboyfromhell
choirboyfromhell
13 years ago

You are making assertions based on conjecture and gossip. I hope that you know that a person can refuse communion for a myriad of reasons (from having received communion earlier in the day to considering penance from a prior act, ad if.) Such a story from a FIF priest in New York (Manhattan) seems truly unlikely. Perhaps the priest has refused sharing the altar with a female cleric/curate/seminarian? Since the act of receiving communion from the female priest is a regular act, are the two clerics a ‘team’ in their parish? Is the male priest retired and attending the parish?… Read more »

choirboyfromhell
choirboyfromhell
13 years ago

I’m getting very sloppy. My previous 2026-5th GMT posting should be directed to Mark Wharton. Apologies.

Bob In PA
Bob In PA
13 years ago

Persecution works both ways. I live in the diocese of Pittsburgh. Here we ordain women but only the ones who follow Duncan. Liberal women are discouraged from seeking ordination. Parishes have been forced to accept orthodox priest and Duncan’s henchmen and woman have tried to bully and swindle liberal to moderate parishes in this diocese to accept evangelical holy rollers for their priest. Many people don’t understand the politics or what questions to ask of a potential rector. What they get isn’t always what they wanted. My old parish has moved so far to the right anyone who is moderate… Read more »

Malcolm+
13 years ago

Mark Wharton: “I have recently visited an Episcopal Diocese, the Diocese is Orthodox. I met parishes and clergy who told me of their first hand experience of persecution from the presiding Bishop and persecution and derision from Bishops out of the Diocese.” M+ – Given the limited juridical powers of the Presiding Bishop, it would be pretty weak persecution. And derision is hardly persecution. If it is, then Gene of New Hampshire has a better case than you. MW – “It is an offence in several diocese in America to refuse to take communion from a woman priest: This is… Read more »

JCF
JCF
13 years ago

“I believe from my friends in the Diocese of Newyork, whose parish priest is a member of FIF, that the church wardens are required to report to the Bishop that they have seen thier priest receive communion from a woman priest. I can only go on thier word.”

This is patently ludicrous. Mark Wharton, let go of my leg already? The pulling of it, veritably amounts to persecution! ;-/

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“I have recently visited an Episcopal Diocese, the Diocese is Orthodox” It’s one or the other, it can’t be both. Oh, unless you mean agreeing with a particular position. I would think that position is rejection of homosexuality. What is the “orthodoxy” we find quite commonly in those areas of the Church where gay people are not welcome? Well, denial of baptismal regeneration comes to mind, and denial of the Real Presence, lay presidency, and attempts to redefine the Trinity so as to bolster arguments against female headship. None of these can in any way be said to be ‘orthodox’… Read more »

Malcolm+
13 years ago

Ford: “Rejection of homosexuality is a better definer of ‘orthodoxy’ than one’s beliefs about the Trinity?”

But Ford, you haven’t been keeping up.

According to the Primate of Argentina and All the Western Hemisphere, if we disagree with him about the odiousness of homosexuals, then we clearly reject Jesus as Lord. At least, that’s the latest lie he’s told about you’n’me.

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