Thinking Anglicans

Virginian property dispute continues

The Washington Post has a report by Michelle Boorstein on the legal disputes in Virginia: In Property Dispute, Litigation Drags On, And the Costs Grow.

An earlier report in the Washington Times by Julia Duin Va. Diocese opens $2 million line of credit is referenced but not linked by the Post.

The January issue of the Virginia Episcopalian can be found as a PDF file here.

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Richard LyonPat O'NeillBen WLeonardo RicardoFord Elms Recent comment authors
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JCF
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JCF

For the love of Christ, CANA-ites: stop, just stop.

Go build your churches, and leave us Episcopalians ours.

Lord have mercy!

Ben W
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Ben W

JCF,

I wanted just to pass this by. . . but one more thought!

Let’s see, people who have worked and served in a particular church over a life time (paid for the buildings and cared for the people to build up the church), it does not belong to them, leave it to us! Churches that heard the voice of the larger communion and want to continue in communion . . . By what standards of truth or justice does this make sense? Drink a strong cup of coffee and clear your mind!

Ben Wiebe

Leonardo Ricardo, San Juan, Puerto Rico
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Leonardo Ricardo, San Juan, Puerto Rico

Ben Wiebe

No more than my Grandmothers stained glass window belongs to me and my family or to YOU…they belong to whom they were freely “given” and donated to…a loving God thru the Christ they were freely given to ALL of our sisters, brothers, moms/dads, friends and fellow pewsitters, you know, ALL the people at TEC! Nothing was built/given SELECTIVELY with “strings” attached.

Go build elsewhere if you wish but don’t steal anything on the way out (it would only underscore that you gave selfishly/falsely and PRIDEFULLY in the first place and “you have YOUR reward already.”

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

Ben, a church is God’s house to which He invites us, not our house to which we invite Him. Those buildings were given to God. It is not appropriate for the descendants of the original givers to ask for these gifts back because they don’t like the people looking after God’s property. Yours is a surprising attitude for an Anglican to have. I’m rather suspicious that you think that working for the Gospel entails some sort of reward. Second, what is the “voice” that people are refusing to hear? A voice that says that roughly ten percent of the population… Read more »

Phyllis
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Phyllis

Ben – I left the Methodist Church, but I didn’t get to take the building with me.

The particular churches you speak of all have members of the congregation who are Episcopalians and plan to remain Episcopalians. No matter how long particular members of the congregation have been there, even if they are a majority of the congregation, they can’t take the building from those folks, or that denomination, when they leave.

I really don’t understand why people leaving the Episcopal Church can’t seem to understand what theft is. Was that not taught to them in Sunday School?

christopher+
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christopher+

The Anglican Communion is not – and will not be – defined on the basis of uniform agreement on matters of sexual ethics as regards gay people. Imagine a church so focused on (and opposed to) gay sex, rather than on Christ, that this would be its core, defining doctrine! No, thank you. I agree that a cup of coffee generally does us all some good, but the issue here is Episcopal Church canon law, under which all parishes in Virginia have lived and worked and to which they are subject, even when some members of a current generation disagree… Read more »

In hoc signo
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In hoc signo

By this standard, Ben: that not everything on which you spend your precious money and/or time is at your complete disposal or discretion to deal with as you wish. Examples include children, organizations to which you and others belong, public infrastructure supported by taxes (without which most free-marketers would not even have money to spend). Besides which, what of those who worked and served and paid and cared and do NOT wish to leave TEC? Are they to be kicked to the curb with nothing?

Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

The property is by law held in trust for TEC and for the Episcopalians in generations to come who will use that property. I dare say the families of those whose ashes rest in the columbarium that forms a wall of our church’s chapel intend that those ashes will not suddenly be stolen and taken to Nigeria. When I was growing up, my dad was transferred by his company fairly often. He used to joke that he’d built several Episcopal churches he’d never set foot it – seems like as soon as one building fund campaign got going, he’d be… Read more »

Erika Baker
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Erika Baker

“sort of behaviour is not necessary to preach a mesage that homosexuality is sinful. Indeed, it is pretty much the opposite of the Gospel, yet not one Evo, not one, has come out against it. Not one”

And THAT is the crucial point. In the whole debate, on TA and everywhere else I’ve been following people’s actions and conversations.

Leonardo Ricardo
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Leonardo Ricardo

Drink a strong cup of coffee and clear your mind!

Ben Wiebe

Posted by: Ben W on Friday, 11 January 2008 at 1:19pm GMT

Brother Ben, drink a strong cup of coffee and see if you can remember if the “tax deduction” for “giving” all those wonderous GIFTS to TEC was filed with Nigeria or the Good Ol’ U.S.A.?

JCF
Guest
JCF

Heh: coincidentally, I just finished a good strong cup of coffee!

I just wanted to correct one thing to my preceding post: when I said “leave us Episcopalians ours (churches)”, I’m not really talking about “us Episcopalians, Right Now.”

We don’t own the churches anymore than CANA does.

I’m talking about holding them *in trust*, for FUTURE Episcopalians…

…”while the Lord tarry”. Natch! 😉

Ben W
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Ben W

Leonardo et al, Hold on! You recall the original contrast made by JCF? “Go build your churches, and leave us Episcopalians ours.” Last I heard ECPUSA is still claiming allegiance to the larger communion of the AC. Though that is more and more being contested. In as much as that is the identity those who stand with Lambeth’98, including 1.10, can at least in this respect be regarded as the “original Epicopalians.” So to whom do the churches belong? At the same time, I am not simply concerned about a legal point here, as Christian people the reason for raising… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“Besides which, what of those who worked and served and paid and cared and do NOT wish to leave TEC? Are they to be kicked to the curb with nothing?”

They are faithless persecutors of the faithful remnant who believe nothing, have no respect for Scripture, and are seeking the approval of the World to the extent that they are willing to sell out the Gospel to do it. They are pagans, unitarians, hedonists who seek to give God’s blessing to promiscuous homosexuality. Or at least that’s what the Right trumpets with every opportunity.

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

In addition to all the above, it’s worth mentioning that at the VA churches in question, it’s clear that many of those voting to leave TEC were not life-long Episcopalians and members of that parish, but relatively recent newcomers, who joined (according to those in the know) for social and political advancement.

Leonardo Ricardo
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Leonardo Ricardo

“Last I heard ECPUSA is still claiming allegiance to the larger communion of the AC.” Ben Ben, I think the only “allegiance” I’ve ever “pledged” to is the U.S.A. (not to be confused with respectfully reciting/confirming the Creeds in my personal religious life)…I know TEC is “in Communion” with ALL of the Anglican Communion Provinces even though Nigeria/Uganda and their liked minded accomplices have “sworn off” being in Communion with us. They have, by their excluding actions, betrayed any wish for a loving ongoing relationship at the moment, as a matter-of-fact they’ve grandstanding by “degrading” any former relationship with TEC… Read more »

Ben W
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Ben W

Pat,

There will I guess be some of that,
people leaving for various reasons. But there will it seems always be rationalization (“they were never part of the church anyway”), even the absurd is rationalized – the definition of ideology.

Ben W

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

Ben:

Google for press reports on all this. Read the descriptions of Falls Church and Truro, including the comments from the cradle Episcopalians in those parishes about how they were pushed out by the newcomers in many ways. (And I say this as someone who is not a cradle Episcopalian.)

These parishes were not built by those currently controlling them and voting to remove them from TEC, nor by their ancestors. Rather, they were built by the ancestors of the very people who now find themselves described as “unfaithful” because they prefer to maintain their affiliation with the national church.

Richard Lyon
Guest
Richard Lyon

The final disposition of property is going to be made by the civil courts on the basis of civil law and not cannon law. Given the growing chaos that is happening in TEC all over the US, it is reasonable to expect that different courts are going to interpret matters differently.

When the dust finally settles, it seems likely that there will be two or more church organizations with an Anglican heritage in the US. Property ownership will probably be a hodgepodge. What seems very certain is that a bunch of lawyers will have greatly benefited from the process.