Thinking Anglicans

bishops interviewed

The Presiding Bishop of the Southern Cone Gregory Venables is interviewed by Ruth Gledhill. See Archbishop Greg: ‘Why I’ll be at Lambeth’.

The Bishop of New Hampshire is also interviewed by Ruth Gledhill. See Lambeth: Bishop Gene and Bishop Greg.

Update Friday morning
Not only is Bishop Venables coming to Lambeth, but so also is the Bishop of Fort Worth, see this announcement.

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Walsingham
Walsingham
13 years ago

Oh my Lord. Ruth Gledhill writes (in a response to a comment): “If TEC or a number of people in TEC started referring to the PB as Archbishop, I can assure you we would follow suit. Or I would. But I don’t understand why TEC can’t arrange things so that the PB can be an Archbishop? Can’t they give her a diocese and make it an archiepiscopate? There must be a way round it. I agree that position should be an AB’s position.” Ms. Gledhill, a reporter should brush up on the subject she is reporting on before saying such… Read more »

Pluralist
13 years ago

Sounds like Venables dialogue is to say it’s all over – you have your Western inclusive Anglicanism.

By the way, it is not that inclusive, as my blog will explain in about ten minutes from me writing this.

http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com

Ashpenaz
Ashpenaz
13 years ago

In another thread, I said that I don’t trust Bishop Robinson when he talks about monogamy–I suspect he might mean what many gays mean: a committed open relationship. Notice that this lack of clarity continues in this interview–some of the comments point it out. I’m not sure he means sexual exclusivity in lifelong relationships when he discusses marriage. As a gay man, I prefer the clear definitions of Jeffrey John and Bruce Bawer.

dr.primrose
dr.primrose
13 years ago

Another couple of comments on Gledhill’s comments. Originally, the Presiding Bishop of TEC was merely the most senior diocesan bishop, who presided over House of Bishop meetings. I believe in the 1920s, the canon was changed so that the Presiding Bishop was elected and the procedure was changed so that the Presiding Bishop resigned as ordinary of a diocese upon taking office. In addition, I believe that in the late 1970s and early 1980s Presiding Bishop Allin floated the idea of changing the title to “Archbishop.” There was not a lot of support for that but at the 1982 General… Read more »

robroy
robroy
13 years ago

Exactly so, Walsingham. The Presiding Bishop can’t even enter a diocese without the diocesan bishop’s permission. The PB is not an archbishop, only presiding at GC, etc. Thus, the letter that Katherine Jefferts Schori wrote to ++Venables was an offensive intrusion into the governance of the diocese of Fort Worth. This also points to the federation nature of the TEC.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

I, for one, is fond of looking at things from “the alternative angle.” So I find this article by Pluralist, refused by Jim Naughton as it is, most interesting.

It poses the question of how the Easter events actually functioned on the level of myth. The workings of a Myth. Surely an inportant part of the spreading and establishment of Christianity in its early, diverse forms (Epiphany and Adoptionism).

Merseymike
Merseymike
13 years ago

There is precisely nothing which indicates the smears which ‘Ashpenaz’ attempts to land on Gene Robinson.

I would suggest that we have a conservative trying to further attack Gene Robinson for things which he has never said, and doesn’t say in this interview.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

Yes, it’s funny that he insists.

counterlight
13 years ago

All this tempest over +Robinson’s sexuality (or anyone’s sexuality) must appear astonishing to those multitudes outside the Church. This is especially so in a world where Important People responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people, and for profiting off those deaths, will certainly never face justice or richly deserved opprobrium, and will always be attended by fawning sycophants and a compliant press. And meanwhile we’re ready to draw and quarter a bishop who fell in love with a man, and worse, had the temerity to be honest about that. Dick Cheney and Robert Mugabe are enjoying their… Read more »

EmilyH
EmilyH
13 years ago

In +Cantuar’s Advent Letter, he stated: “And while (as I have said above) I understand and respect the good faith of those who have felt called to provide additional episcopal oversight in the USA, there can be no doubt that these ordinations have not been encouraged or legitimised by the Communion overall…. Second: I have underlined in my letter of invitation that acceptance of the invitation must be taken as implying willingness to work with those aspects of the Conference’s agenda that relate to implementing the recommendations of Windsor, including the development of a Covenant. ” Although +Jefferts Schori is… Read more »

robroy
robroy
13 years ago

What I take from Venables going to Lambeth as a guest of Rowan Williams but Robinson is not coming through the gate but entering through some other way:

Border crossing is not equivalent to tearing of the fabric of the Communion. Border crossing was acknowledged in the DeS communique as necessary to protect the orthodox in America from the predations of the pogrom that the liberal cabal is leading against those that stand for traditional Christian beliefs.

toujoursdan
13 years ago

The TEC has made it clear that “open” relationships that some gay men enter into are not part of the Christian vision.

“We expect such relationships will be characterized by fidelity, monogamy, mutual affection and respect, careful, honest communication, and the holy love which enables those in such relationships to see in each other the image of God” – D039 passed at GC 2000

So I have to also wonder why people choose to put words into Gene’s mouth when he has never said anything that seems out of step with this resolution. It also strikes me as a smear.

Leonardo Ricardo
Leonardo Ricardo
13 years ago

“I would suggest that we have a conservative trying to further attack Gene Robinson for things which he has never said, and doesn’t say in this interview” Merseymike

I would suggest the ‘conservative’ isn’t even Gay as he keeps tossing that tidbit in to further contaminate the tainted gossip mix.

Perhaps ‘Ashpenaz’ will explain his personal homosexual road to virtue and character/lack-of-sin to us as he blindly projects “steamy” intimacies for others.

Malcolm+
13 years ago

“In another thread, I said that I don’t trust Bishop Robinson when he talks about monogamy–I suspect he might mean what many gays mean: a committed open relationship.” Which being interpreted is: “I actually have no evidence, but I want to attack this man, so I will make up accusations of things he might believe on the grounds that he has not explicitly said he doesn’t.” “Ashpenaz has not expressly said that he opposes violence against homosexuals. That proves he supports it.” “Ashpenaz has not expressly said that he opposes the false teachings of the Donatists. That proves that he… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
13 years ago

“…the predations of the pogrom that the liberal cabal is leading against those that stand for traditional Christian beliefs.”

Dear heaven! If you get any more over the top, Robroy, we’ll have to hire a helicopter to bring you back to earth!

JCF
JCF
13 years ago

FWIW, Ashpenaz strikes me as someone deeply, deeply conflicted over (presumably) his own sexuality: “*I* can’t be gay—they’re icky and promiscuous!”

God bless you, Ashpenaz, as you struggle . . . just leave +Gene Robinson out of your own dilemma? (It’s not so hard to do. See re “Rowan Cantuar & Lambeth”)

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“the predations of the pogrom that the liberal cabal is leading against those that stand for traditional Christian beliefs.” Beg pardon? Could you provide specifics? Seriously. Our bishop is being falsely accused of this kind of behaviour by the Right. If they can lie about him, they can lie about anyone, so pony up. Having seen how a good Christian bishop can be misrepresented and spun out as a liberal (which he is not), a “revisionist” (which he is not), and a persecutor of the faithful traditionalists (which he is not) I am disinclined to take any such stories from… Read more »

Malcolm+
13 years ago

A pogrom is it now.

Pogrom is a word with a specific meaning, Robroy.

Your use of it here constitutes a lie, Robroy.

counterlight
13 years ago

Robroy will be pleased to know that the Chinese regime fully agrees with him.

There was pogrom carried out against gay men throughout China during the Cultural Revolution, and was particularly violent in Shanghai. Unlike Robroy’s imaginary pogrom of “orthodox” Anglicans, thousands of people died.

He will be so pleased to know that the Chinese are not only cracking down on those heathen Tibetans, but also on those filthy perverters all things decent, the gays; and just in time for the Olympics.

http://gaycitynews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19471744&BRD=2729&PAG=461&dept_id=568864&rfi=6

The Segregationists always keep such marvelous company; from Phelps to East European Neofascists to the Chinese regime.

robroy
robroy
13 years ago

Pogrom was the word that the card carrying reappraiser BrianfromT19 used when he stated, “I’d like to see this put pressure on ++Katharine to adjust her pogrom.”

The travesty of the approval process of +Mark Lawrence is a good example of open effort to see to it that no conservative hold any authority in the TEC.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

The word “pogrom” refers specifically to Russian State and church oppression in former Lithuanian and Polish lands in the 1890ies. The Ukraine, and so on.

Thousands (those that survived) fled to other European countries, America and South Africa (and even further; to China).

For us as Europeans this is a prelude to what happened later. It does not behove you from other parts of the World to make political capital out of things you don’t know anything about. Things that still hurt for us.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

Just as Tertullian said the interpretation of the Bible belonged to the Jerusalem = the Church, not to Athens = Hellenism, our sad Memories belong to us.

Walsingham
Walsingham
13 years ago

@robroy: It doesn’t matter who used the term “pogrom” in that context. It is simply out of bounds. As painful as the situation in TEC is for many people, it by no means is anything remotely like a pogrom. Meanwhile, it is highly distasteful that counterlight compares theological conservatives to Fred Phelps or imply that conservatives all want to do the deplorable sorts of things to gays that are happening in China or elsewhere. Hyperbole such as this serves no purpose whatsoever aside from escalate things. Think about it: Who or what benefits most when we fight over sniping and… Read more »

counterlight
13 years ago

“…it is highly distasteful that counterlight compares theological conservatives to Fred Phelps or imply that conservatives all want to do the deplorable sorts of things to gays that are happening in China or elsewhere.”

No apologies.

They’re on YOUR side like it or not. Why?

Think about it.

Dallas Bob
Dallas Bob
13 years ago

1) Writing a letter is not meddling. Visiting a diocese to consort with those who wish to harm the Episcopal Church is. 2) Presiding Bishop Schori offered no threats of retaliation. She simply wrote “I write to urge you not to bring further discord”. Are conservatives so wimpy they can’t take a little letter like that? 3) Conservatives don’t seem to be rushing to respond to Presiding Bishop Shori’s statement: “I ask you to consider how you might receive such a visit to your own Province from a fellow primate”. 4) The instrument hasn’t been invented that can measure how… Read more »

John Henry
John Henry
13 years ago

“Are conservatives so wimpy they can’t take a little letter like that?” – Dallas Bob.

A very pertinent question, especially in the light of +JL Iker’s toxic reponse to PB Schori’s letter to her opposite number, PB Venables of the Southern Cone.

robroy
robroy
13 years ago

Was just reading about Howard of Florida deposing 41 priests in his short tenure! By the end of the year, Katherine Jefferts Schori will most likely have deposed or driven off more bishops in her short tenure than in the past 100 years. That should give anyone pause. This is not living in tension. This is not decimation. This is take no prisoners, a religious equivalent of ethnic cleansing.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

Robroy wrote: “This is not decimation.”

No, not at all, for “decimation” refers to the Roman Army killing its own soldiers to enforce discipline in non-enforcable circumstance.

Every tenth soldier had to take a step forward and was cut down on the spot by a petty officer, glaven in hand.

It was last tried towards the end of WWII at Villmanstrand/Lappenranta in Finland.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

So nothing to do with “ethnical cleansing” even if you think that would make a useful “talking point.

My repeated advice to you is not to try (again!) to mis-use things you do not know of for political gain.

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

The “Take no prisoners, allow no ransoming” refers to the Knights Templar and the Crusade.

That one can arguably be called “ethical cleansing”.

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
13 years ago

If you choose not to live in the same house with people with whom you disagree, have they “driven you off?” Or have you opted not to try to live in harmony with disagreement?

Walsingham
Walsingham
13 years ago

@counterlight:

Interesting: According to you, I try to stick up for conservatives, ergo I’m a conservative.

Mayhap you should engage brain before posting. You’re doing “our” side a disservice otherwise.

robroy
robroy
13 years ago

The schoolmarmish lesson in the term decimation is unnecessary as I used it correctly.

Only the most foolish ideological liberal would say good riddance to 41 priests being deposed in a span of four years or more bishops be deposed or fleeing to Rome in four years as the previous hundred. Those are really quite staggering. No, all is not well. BrianfromT19 understands that denomination won’t survive the hemicorpectomy.

Erika Baker
Erika Baker
13 years ago

Robroy
are you sure that all these poor people are fleeing from persecution?
I thought they simply decided they didn’t like it any longer and walked away.

And what about all those millions who no longer go to church at all because they have nothing but contempt for a church that is so opposed to a thinking developing faith but insists on conformity and simple playground answers?

robroy
robroy
13 years ago

People, especially clergy who have given their lives to a church, aren’t simply walking away, they are being pushed. Katherine Jefferts Schori doesn’t have a clue about the Christian way to resolve conflict. “I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? “But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers! The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already.” The Christian leader’s method of conflict resolution – of reconciliation: “Enough of this acrimony.”… Read more »

Malcolm+
13 years ago

It is absolutely correct that there have been decisions made and actions taken on the “liberal” side that have added to the problem.

It is a diabolical lie to suggest that the “conservative” side is innocent of all offence.

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
13 years ago

Robroy: Prayer and honest talk only work if both sides are interested in talking honestly and listening to the other side. When one side is insistent in its belief that they and they alone know the mind of God and those who oppose them are heretics and blasphemers, then there is no room for discussion. Nobody told Bishop Schofield to leave. Nobody is telling Duncan and Iker to leave. They are leaving of their own accord…and nobody’s stopping them, either. What we will prevent them from doing is taking property given to the church by the faithful Episcopalians of the… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“it is highly distasteful that counterlight compares theological conservatives to Fred Phelps or imply that conservatives all want to do the deplorable sorts of things to gays that are happening in China or elsewhere.” But you see, conservatives don’t seem to realize that they cannot lie about people, slander people, disseminate false information about people, then expect that these same people will trust them. It’s that simple. What evidence do I have that people who do such things understand anything about me and my life, or that they have my best interests at heart? That is the point. Sorry, walsingham,… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“they are being pushed.” There was a time when I felt like this. The issue was OOW, and what I saw as the faithlessness of those who led the Anglican Church of Canada. They seemed to make their decisions based on modern politics, not the Gospel. Sound familiar? I was just as angry as the more extreme GAFCONers today. What changed? I grew up. I realized that I might not actually HAVE all the answers. That people in charge of the Church might actually not be the faithless politicians I thought they were. Most importantly, I realized I needed God… Read more »

robroy
robroy
13 years ago

I see that I left my thought slightly unfinished in my last post: The diocese of Quincy had pulled back somewhat. The debacle of the inhibition of retired Bp MacBurney, two days before his son died despite requests to delay a short while. KJS’s disregard for Bp MacBurney’s personal family situation has galvanized the diocese which I am sure will now be leaving in the Fall. Talk of reconciliation is a sham. She communicates via nasty letters, sent via the public medium of the internet, threatening depositions, etc. This is not how a Christian leader acts. Of course, there are… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

Robroy,

A couple of weeks ago on the HoB/D list it was remarked that it was not the deposed bishops themselves, but others, interested, movers who were complaining over the depositions.

One of the deposed former bishops was even quoted to have merely said about “abondoning this church” I have.

It seems to me that there are several intersted parties around to complain about what is really logical ends to logical effects.

Now that speaks of late modern Politics, of the political climate (“culture wars”) these days in the USA.

Animosity.

Walsingham
Walsingham
13 years ago

@Ford Elms:

“But you see, conservatives don’t seem to realize that they cannot lie about people, slander people, disseminate false information about people, then expect that these same people will trust them. It’s that simple.”

So the response to an individual or subset of conservatives tarring all gays with a broad brush is to tar all conservatives with a broad brush.

Honestly, did you put much of any thought into the effect your words have or who they affect? I’d say not. So why get upset when these “conservatives” do the same?

Physician, heal thyself.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“She communicates via nasty letters, sent via the public medium of the internet, threatening depositions, etc. This is not how a Christian leader acts.” I find it funny that a conservative could express such feelings about the communications of KJS. I have to admit, the McBurney business, if it is indeed as you say, lacks the compassion one expects of a bishop. The thing is, I have heard a lot of misrepresentations, spin, and out and out falsehood from the Right concerning our own bishop lately. If such things are being done against our bishop, they could be done against… Read more »

counterlight
13 years ago

“…if conservatives want gay people to trust them, they have to earn that trust, and the above tactics are not the best way to go about that. If someone talks like Fred Phelps, they ought not to be surprised when they are classed with him.” I couldn’t have said it better myself. Exactly. No, I don’t think conservatives are evil like Phelps and the Chinese regime. But, that they find themselves on the same side as such should give conservatives pause. My aim is not to insult, but to prick consciences. If I didn’t think they had consciences, then I… Read more »

Walsingham
Walsingham
13 years ago

@counterlight: “No, I don’t think conservatives are evil like Phelps and the Chinese regime. But, that they find themselves on the same side as such should give conservatives pause.” It should give *you* pause that that tactic — guilt by association — can be just as well used on you. Doesn’t make it any more fair in either case. It’s pointless trying to speak of “conservatives”, “reappraisers”, “reasserters” or whatever the flavor of the month is. It’s all just labels, pigeonholing, framing, or other forms of rhetorical gamesmanship — anything to avoid actually answering and considering what the other guy… Read more »

robroy
robroy
13 years ago

Ford Elms, see http://tinyurl.com/6b7mao regarding the sad and troubling MacBurney affair. Göran Koch-Swahne, in the U.S. even if a person admits to a crime, there still needs to be a trial that is in accordance with the laws of the land. The canon laws were simply not followed. It is laughable that one of the defenses now being proffered was that they were following the same procedure as the previous two depositions. As the new appendix to the memorandum outlining charges against KJS states, “Past malfeasance is not a defense; to the contrary it is proof of a pattern of… Read more »

counterlight
13 years ago

“(Might I gently remind you of your ill-starred attempt to pin me as a conservative.)”

And so, since you’re so determined to win here, what do you pin me as?

counterlight
13 years ago

Walsingham,

I have apparently struck a nerve and created an enmity that I did not intend.
Perhaps you would like to continue this discussion by private email and spare poor Simon the trouble of reading this.

counterlight@earthlink.net

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
13 years ago

“guilt by association” It isn’t merely guilt by association, walsingham, (love the name BTW, OLW has never let me down!) that was the point of my post. We are talking about actual behaviour here, support for jailing people, even stoning people, opposing basic human rights, using the same terms, the same attitudes, the same language. Guilt by association means one is guilty of another’s crimes because one associates with the other. This is guilt by commission. Oh sure, no conservative Anglican has picketed a funeral that we know of, but the kinds of behaviours I indicated above would put them… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
13 years ago

Robroy, This is an excellent example or just how late modern American 29th century Inerrantism has destroyed the ability to read, understand and distinguish. Something of the sort happened 1000 years ago in Judaism. Squeaked between the Age old Intolerance of Byzantion and the New Integrism of Islam Judaism got into trouble with the Oral Torah. Could something merely Oral and un-written be Torah? The innovators didn’t think so… What has happened in this case is very similar. The text (any text) is made sacrosanct in the minds of some, and the un-written Rules are regarded as illegitimate, because not… Read more »

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