Thinking Anglicans

GAFCON: Friday morning

Today’s Church Times has these four reports from Paul Handley.
GAFCON Churches ‘will stay in the fold’
Akinola: Lambeth betrayed us
Dr Nazir-Ali: ‘Inculturation has limits’
It’s conscience, say Lambeth absentees

There is also his latest blog entry posted last night.
Will a new structure emerge from GAFCON?

There is also this leader.
The GAFCON Reformation

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dodgyvicar
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dodgyvicar

So Nazir-Ali wanted Lambeth to have been conciliar?
His real wish, I think is for Anglicanism to be centralised and ruled by diktat – his diktat, and those of primates.
Anglicanism in England is synodical, and so was CMS.
‘I am not having members telling me what to do’ is my favourite quote of his.
All rather sad and totally misunderstanding the nature of Anglicanism if you ask me.

Tim
Guest

Blimey. I just read the akinola-on-gafcon-and-lambeth article and cannot believe the lies. The only thing Lambeth and ++Rowan have *done* is seek to accommodate all parties, and the only change there recently was wrongly not inviting +VGR to the party this year. And somehow that’s portrayed as “betraying” *his* band of cronies?
Truly, a different universe is formed.

Treebeard
Guest
Treebeard

What do folks here make of this ?

http://www.dontthrowstones.info/index.cfm

MJ
Guest
MJ

This is outrageous and only goes to show that this is purely about power and nothing to do with ‘protecting’ conservatives in liberal dioceses. The Diocese in Europe and +Rowell could in no way be characterised as ‘revisionist’: “Delegates at the revolutionary Global Anglican Futures Conference (GAFCON) being held in Jerusalem learnt this week that for the first time in history, three senior church leaders agreed to give official oversight to an independent Anglican church, which is based in the Algarve. In a statement sent to The Portugal News from the ‘Holy City’, where more than 1,200 delegates from around… Read more »

Ben W
Guest
Ben W

Tim, True, you are here in another universe. Attend to the record: 1)statement on sexuality out of lambeth’98, 2)Windsor report (recognition that unilateral action in US is a betrayal of understanding and agreement – a break that must be dealt with), 3)Primates meeting and expectation that issue will be recognized in US and addressed in run-up to Lambeth ’08. What is not to understand? It is not simply a matter of one individual (you can trivialize this if you want to but that only digs a deeper hole) – it is keeping faith with the process and with one another!… Read more »

Colin Coward
Guest

As one of the ‘Gafcon 8’ I have a particular interest in George Conger’s report yesterday about the sheet produced for the security guards naming and picturing eight persons he believed might seek entrance to the conference. He calls it a volunteer gaffe in the context of tight security at the conference. The story raises further questions. Why was the selection and training of volunteers at this conference so badly handled. This volunteer was specifically working in security. What training did these security specialists received? Andrew Carey in today’s Church Times thinks the Gafcon team would have been better organisers… Read more »

Wierdfish
Guest
Wierdfish

“…In a radical break with tradition, three church leaders, The Most Rev. Emmanuel Mbona Kolini, Archbishop of the Province of the Anglican Church of Rwanda and Bishop of Kigali, The Most Rev’d Dr. Justice Ofei Akrofi, Archbishop of the Church of the Province of West Africa and Bishop of Accra and The Rt. Rev. Frank Retief, Presiding Bishop of the Church of England in South Africa signed the Concordat in Jerusalem, the document of acceptance which brings All Saints Anglican Church into their care.”

Oh the irony… especially since the Priest-in-Charge at All Saints is a member of Accepting Evangelicals!

Colin Coward
Guest

Ben W’s parallel universe is one in which wishful thinking and fantasy prevail over the reality of what has been happening in the Anglican Communion, the nature of power and authority, the roles and powers of the variuous instruments of Communion, and the nature of human sexuality. No-one keeps faith with the process and many fail to keep faith with one another. All of us ignore one clause or another from Lambeth 1.10, according to the outcome we hope and pray for. It is impossible for anyone to keep faith with Lambeth 1.10 because it makes mutually exclusive commitments. There… Read more »

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

Well said, Colin.

Ben W
Guest
Ben W

Colin, If I wanted to take extremist tidbits from here and there and paste them on you that would be an easy way to dismiss you (well he is just in fantasy land you know!)I could do that but that might say more about me than you. I guess neither of us is completely out of it, we both seem to recognize that those who walked away from Lambeth ‘98.1.10 acted in betrayal of others – your words: “No-one keeps faith with the process and many fail to keep faith with one another.” After that it is hard to know… Read more »

BillyD
Guest
BillyD

“The Church of England in South Africa?” What are they doing at GAFCON?

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Ben W, I feel there has been offence on both sides, but who do you see as exhibiting Christian behaviour for the most part? I cannot find much that is Christian in the behaviour of most of the leaders of the Right. Pharisaically defending Law when Christianity is about practicing the spirit of the Law and being free from the letter of that Law isn’t very Christian. Christians are called to love, and not just the nice people, we are called to love those who we feel most deserve our judgement, the ones no-one feels deserve love. Do you actually… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

“Nor have I thought that you can simply dismiss those now meeting in Jerusalem as a bunch of dummies – they represent the great majority of Anglicans in the world!”

Since they were not, for the most part, elected by the laity of their dioceses, they represent only those who elected or appointed them. I can claim to represent my parish, but if the parish did not choose me, I represent only myself.

JCF
Guest
JCF

“I have not thought that gay people would or should simply go away (that is your “fantasy” projected on evangelicals).”

So you’re saying, Ben W, that you welcome us—WITH OUR SAME-SEX PARTNERS—to The Lord’s Table, both communing AND presiding?

That, and THAT ALONE, is THE alternative that would disprove my deluded “fantasy”! (and not some meaningless blather about “welcoming but not including” or “including you but not your sin” etc. etc. ad nauseum)

Lord have mercy!

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Methinks Ben W is talking “numbers” again!

;=)

Colin Coward
Guest

Ben W Another false assertion, my friend. Those now meeting in Jerusalem do not ‘represent’ the vast majority of Anglicans in the world. They represent themselves. The opinions they are expressing do not even represent the opinion of all those present in Jerusalem. Some of them are reported to have wanted to go to Lambeth but have been prevented by their own Primates. I only have news reports to rely on for this statement, of course. As you rightly say, none of us is completely out of it. We have all been drawn, by God, into this challenging and complex… Read more »

Cheryl Va.
Guest

Well played Colin Those who are unfaithful are those who refuse to provide hospitality to the “least of these” (See Matthew 5:19 or 25:34-46). In refusing to acknowledge, minister or protect those who would be in communion with them, such souls can not prove that they would provide for those who are “not like” them e.g. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, humanists or atheists. Thus they prove they are not part of fulfilling Jesus’ divine missives to be the Counsellor, Comforter or Prince of Peace to all the peopleS of all the nationS (Isaiah 9:6). Thus they are in breach of the… Read more »

Lapinbizarre
Guest
Lapinbizarre

As has been noted here before, Ben W., it was the “great majority” who “cried out all at once, saying, ‘Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas'”

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

This whole new structure thang is disingenuous at best. It aims to build on realignment, and yet balloons into momentary shapes when pressured, and upon close detailed scrutiny as a reformation movement often proves to be markedly mean-spirited, miserly and ungenerous in its tone of voice, and above all, fearful about an endless list of picky scruples that it believes/preaches will unduly compromise the witness to Jesus of Nazareth in the modern world. Surely any such new structures must be aimed at collapsing the current worldwide Anglican big tent into something other, smaller, more highly conformed in doctrines, and more… Read more »

Ben W
Guest
Ben W

Colin, I appreciate the fact that you climbed down from your earlier position of mocking dismissal toward me and other evangelicals. About whether the bishops in Africa represent their people or not, we have been around this before. (Do you want to say the only way people can represent anybody else is if they have been “elected” according to our rules, and which, British or American?? Our system in which perhaps 25% to 50% of the people will vote and then split that vote, that is the only way to do things? Especially in the case of leaders in the… Read more »

Ben W
Guest
Ben W

Ford, I am with you in the call to love. It is a challenge in all areas of life, whether it is race or economics etc, not just when it comes to this one – and it is something much more than making nice. In dealing with homosexuality liberals by conviction would have an affinity here (the greater challenge in this case is for the evangelical – disagreeing strongly will he respond with care?). You ask whether we see this in the Right. (I could ask, do you know all evangelcals so that you can speak for them all?), I… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Ben “I don’t think that means we stop affirming the Gospel of peace” You have of course read the transcript of the LGCM interview with +Orombi, ++Akinola and Jensen TA linked to. And you are aware that the only out gay Nigerian Christian is currently living in exile in another country fearing for his life. And there is the matter of the Ugandan lesbian woman who was raped and beaten and who is now seeking asylum in Britain, yet +Orombi did not condemn any violence against lgbts in his country. And you have read Ford’s attempts, for a couple of… Read more »

Treebeard
Guest
Treebeard

Colin,

I appreciate the fact that you climbed down from your earlier position of mocking dismissal toward me and other evangelicals.’ (‘Ben W’)

Very very unpleasant posts these. Heaven help those upon whom he turns his invective. And all under cover of anonymity while poor Colin speaks for himsef, and as himself !
And this is Witness?

I of course speak from the (comparative) safety of middle earth !

Treebeard
Guest
Treebeard

“…In a radical break with tradition, three church leaders, The Most Rev. Emmanuel Mbona Kolini, Archbishop of the Province of the Anglican Church of Rwanda and Bishop of Kigali, The Most Rev’d Dr. Justice Ofei Akrofi, Archbishop of the Church of the Province of West Africa and Bishop of Accra and The Rt. Rev. Frank Retief, Presiding Bishop of the Church of England in South Africa signed the Concordat in Jerusalem, the document of acceptance which brings All Saints Anglican Church into their care.” Oh the irony… especially since the Priest-in-Charge at All Saints is a member of Accepting Evangelicals!… Read more »

GRAHAM PALMR
Guest

This world family of Anglican churches is suffering from the Gafcon group saying they wish to have a different diet. This has happened over the centuries and if they feel the present Archbishop is pushing the boundaries a little far, they should bear in mind that even he cannot last for ever. “Blessed are the peacemakers” This is the duty of Gafcon, and if they proceed on their present course they should not be allowed to stay in the same church, and under the roofs that they now use. If they do remain with the rest of us another ruse… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“About whether the bishops in Africa represent their people or not, we have been around this before. (Do you want to say the only way people can represent anybody else is if they have been “elected” according to our rules, and which, British or American?? Our system in which perhaps 25% to 50% of the people will vote and then split that vote, that is the only way to do things? Especially in the case of leaders in the church we can do without gospel discernment as long as we have followed these rules!?).” I certainly want something more than… Read more »

Colin Coward
Guest

I’ve been pondering Ben W’s comment about me since he posted it yesterday afternoon: “Colin. I appreciate the fact that you climbed down from your earlier position of mocking dismissal toward me and other evangelicals.” I wasn’t aware that I had climbed down. ‘Climbed down’ implies that I have done something that I don’t think I have. I try and acknowledge the integrity of those who hold radically different opinions from myself when I write. Sometimes I don’t get it right, and my tone changes. But has my tone ever been one of ‘mocking dismissal’? If it has, I apologise.… Read more »

Cheryl Va.
Guest

Unfortunately Erika, I think some souls idea of peace is that all those that don’t agree with them shut up and put up. Preferably while cleaning, maintaining and cooking their meals and lives for them. Of course, with a smile on their faces so that their oppressors can claim that they are happy and have no grievances.

Fortunately God looks beyond appearances to what is really happening.

Ben W
Guest
Ben W

Colin, Thanks for the spirit of your response. I was responding to your first note in which you talked “about” me rather than to me and said: “Ben W’s parallel universe is one in which wishful thinking and fantasy prevail over the reality of what has been happening in the Anglican Communion . . .” I did not think or intend to imply that you had “changed [your] mind about conservative attitudes to homosexuality …” Actually, would that be so bad,if we want to advance the conversation would not some change at times be good news?(or what is this conversation… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Ben W, “do you know all evangelcals so that you can speak for them all?” Of course not. There is a lovely site called Ship of Fools where my anti-Evangelical bigotry is brought to light and I am shamed by it. Not here, though. See Erika’s response to you. When I refer to “the Right” I am referring to things like GAFCON/CANA/Essentials/the Network. It is difficult to keep in mind that not all Evangelicals are among their number, or that not all GAFCONITES are Evangelicals. Yet, it is true the the loudest voices within that movement are Evangelical. It is… Read more »

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

If you are anti-evangelical, Ford…I think you are FAR too soft on them!

For me its not about mocking dismissal, but simply that I find their ideas and their god loathsome.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“I find their ideas and their god loathsome.” So do I, Mike, and that’s a sin for me. We ought not to loathe any of our fellow humans, regardless. Yet, I still feel that doesn’t negate the need to continually refute their claims to True traditional Christianity, nor the increasingly glaring distortions of logic and history they must resort to to justify their claims. I keep saying, Evangelicalism might well be right, I’m not qualified to say, but it ain’t Tradition, it ain’t the “faith once and for all delivered to the saints”, and it darned well ain’t ‘orthodox’, whatever… Read more »

ben W
Guest
ben W

Ford, I see the Gafcon statement and key items listed. As I said above you can think about this abstractly and say they are acting out of order, and I have encouraged patience while working with Ab Rowan Williams and those with him, but there has been deep alienation (people seem not to get it – what is the meaning of unilateral acts in walking away from an agreed process!?) Having lost hope after three tries and much time they will act to take steps not to be simply co-opted. I don’t find that impossible to understand! I think the… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Ford
“We ought not to loathe any of our fellow humans, regardless”

No, but we can find their IDEAS loathsome, which is what MM has suggested they are.
I agree with him and I make absolutely no apologies for that.

Is this one of the first instances of a liberal “hate the sin love the sinner”?

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Ben, my comments on the Jerusalem statement can be found here: http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/003192.html#comments It’s the thread entitled GAFCON: Sunday lunchtime and my comments are the fourth post. For a start, how about the lie that TEC has invented a new Gospel? You excuse African bishops as acting in a particular context. I understand they are acting in the presence, in some instances, of a militant Islam, and that their traditional cultures have an abhorrance of homosexuality, but what cultural context makes it appropriate to repeatedly rape and beat some one who is a lesbian, to jail gay people for 5 years,… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“What specifically do you find objectionable?” Well, just for starters: *4. We uphold the Thirty-nine Articles as containing the true doctrine of the Church agreeing with God’s Word and as authoritative for Anglicans today.* Here’s Article XXI: “General Councils may not be gathered together without the commandment and will of Princes…..” I’m a US citizen; I do not need the approval of a “Prince” (or a government) to meet with my co-religionists. In fact, to require the same is a direct violation of the First Amendment of the US Constitution. Similarly, Articles XXXVI and XXXVII (in the original) make references… Read more »

Ben W
Guest
Ben W

Ford, GAFCON is not expecting to declare “the whole gospel” on this occasion but affirming it, in the context of the early church and of strong statements in more recent Anglican history (no inclination “just to make it up”). The aim is to address the current situation in light of the gospel. I try to hear the statement for what it says rather than for what it does not say, recognizing there are some gaps to which in some cases you point, that will need to be elucidated in the future. One can easily dismiss the threats of “secularism” etc… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Ben, I take exception to the following: “the acceptance…of a different ‘gospel’” This is a blatant lie intended to inflame the sentiments of those who need to feel themselves some oppressed remnant valiantly standing for the Truth against the world. It is reviling in the interests of vainglory, nothing more. “four Ecumenical Councils” This is huge. If they reject the final three, are they Nestorians, Monophysites, or Monothelites? Some non-Anglican Evangelicals reject some or all of the Seven outright, their Anglican brethren would seem to do like wise. If they repeatedly claim to be orthodox, they are either lying or… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Does the shrinking of the “mainline” – certainly TEC and ACC – churches in some cases to less than half within a generation say nothing to us?).” Ben, it says an awful lot. Do you have any idea of the image of Christianity held by those who do not attend church, who count themselves atheists, or who hold us in scorn? Any idea why Christianity is “a despicable religion”? Look at the stereotype. It is of an authoritarian, lawbound, judgmental, power hungry, hypocritical, ignorant organization stamping it’s foot like a little child at not being able to force everyone else… Read more »

Ben W
Guest
Ben W

Ford,

There is assumption piled on assumption here – most of this I am not going to answer because I think you know better – take the last one about the rape of the woman, do you have to ask? (your question has the character of “have you stopped beating your wife yet,” it assumes what has never been the case!). There are a thousand dreadful things going on most days in the world that are despicable and which I do not all have to disaffirm because I would not for a moment cuntenance them!

Ben W