Thinking Anglicans

Lambeth: catching up with news reports

The Times Ruth Gledhill
Bishops invited to give tribal politics a go at the Lambeth Conference
and Cardinal Ivan Dias: Anglican Church suffering spiritual Alzheimer’s
Also Lambeth voices: a panel of Anglican bishops share their views with Faith Online

Guardian Riazat Butt
Call at Lambeth for gay bishop to resign post
and Cardinal accuses Anglican Communion of ‘spiritual Alzheimer’s’
Also Conference diary

Telegraph Martin Beckford
Liberal churches have ‘spiritual Alzheimer’s’, claims Vatican cardinal
and Church needs a miracle to survive, says Archbishop [this is not Rowan Williams speaking]

BBC Robert Pigott
Lambeth diary: Anglicans in turmoil
and Anglicans accused of ‘demonising’ Windsor Continuation Group

Religious Intelligence George Conger
Vatican official in warning to Anglican bishops
and Akinola: Conference attendance ‘is immaterial’

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Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
12 years ago

Who thought it was a good idea to be lectured by a clergyman who represents a church that does not recognize Anglican orders as valid? Oh – the ABC I suppose, who secretly wishes he were an RC? As someone who has friends whose families have been devastated emotionally, spiritually, and, yes, materially by both Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s, I found his clever metaphors quite offensive. I suspect my friends who have been touched by these diseases would be badly hurt. Why pay attention to such an insensitive and arrogant cleric? I hope if I had been present I would have… Read more »

Treebeard
Treebeard
12 years ago

Well said Cynthia Gillat.

I do beleive you would have and I hope I would ahve joined you.

Very offensive to those with the illnesses.

Very offensive to the anglicans churches.

YES ! Who gave him air romm to do such lecturing ?

John Omani
John Omani
12 years ago

I think Cardinal Dias’s comments were offensive even within his own communion, given that the late Pope was crippled by Parkinson’s.

But this does give the lie to the suggestion in the Independent that the Vatican is propping up Williams. Dias is closer to the Holy Father than Kasper or Murphy O’Connor, and favours incorporating the Anglo-Catholics into the Communion.

Pamela Grenfell Smith
12 years ago

I note that, out of Cardinal Dias’ lengthy and mostly peaceable address, most of the British press as presented on TA appear to snatch the two sentences likely to be perceived as most wounding to Lambeth in particular and Anglicans in general, and then characterizes these two sentences as an attack. I’m getting a bit fed up with most the British press, actually. It seems that they view their role as finding something every day to be snarky about. And how they love to tell us that the Communion is doomed! Apparently we can expect burnings at the stake any… Read more »

Treebeard
Treebeard
12 years ago

‘Because people don’t always want the same thing?’

That comes down to choice and Live and let live.

It’s what liberal types have championed all along, Isn’t it ?

Yes, we seem to have the press we deserve ….

BillyD
BillyD
12 years ago

What I found odd about the cardinal’s speech was that in his closing he quoted two people (Newman and Kilmer) who swam the Tiber.

badman
badman
12 years ago

Pamela, the Bishop of Buckingham says something similar about this in a comment added to his own blog at http://bishopalan.blogspot.com/2008/07/o-monstrous-world-dangerous-conceit.html#comment-280535721585015435

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
12 years ago

“I note that, out of Cardinal Dias’ lengthy and mostly peaceable address, most of the British press as presented on TA appear to snatch the two sentences likely to be perceived as most wounding to Lambeth in particular and Anglicans in general, and then characterizes these two sentences as an attack.” Agreed, that journalists will often focus on a provocative quotation in order to attract readers [if it bleeds, it leads]. But try this: “I note that out of Cardinal X’s lengthy and mostly peaceable address, the press choose to highlight his characterization of TEC as ‘a bunch of retards’… Read more »

Bob in SW PA
Bob in SW PA
12 years ago

I agree with Cynthia. I find it amazing that the RC church bashes gays but then how many priest, at least in the American Church, do they think are straight?? The only difference between us ordaining GL people and their ordaining GL people is that we are open about it. Rome denies they have homosexual priest or that they’re celibate. Yeah, right. On the question of women, the RC church is one of the few groups allowed to practise institutionalized discrimination. They only accept single males. No married males or women need apply (and probably married women, would be the… Read more »

JCF
JCF
12 years ago

My (critical) comments about the Cardinal’s address are here: http://www.haloscan.com/comments/terrym/6369087883954851925/#16613

[And I didn’t even touch on the “Alzheimer’s/Parkinson’s” bit! :-0]

drdanfee
drdanfee
12 years ago

Hmm okay, if Diaz is a friend, then as the saying goes … who needs these odd, strange warnings to Anglicans that we must be careful with modernity lest it cause us to come down with either spiritual Alzheimers or spiritual Parkinsons Disease? His remarks, his sound bite analogies go way past trendy conservative religious cleverness by half. The difficulties we are having across our Anglican believer differences are not simplistically due to certain liberal Anglicans rushing to cave in to fashionable modernity. I really see the constant repeats of this sound bite as dastardly falsehoods. The empirical data behind… Read more »

Walsingham
Walsingham
12 years ago

Isn’t it interesting that Ruth Gledhill’s headline, “Cardinal Ivan Dias: Anglican Church suffering spiritual Alzheimer’s”, appears to be a wilful distortion? He simply didn’t say that. What he *did* say is: “For example, when we live myopically in the fleeting present, oblivious of our past heritage and apostolic traditions, we could well be suffering from spiritual Alzheimer’s. And when we behave in a disorderly manner, going whimsically our own way without any co-ordination with the head or the other members of our community, it could be ecclesial Parkinson’s.” Note that there is nothing in there about Anglicans having Alzheimer’s, real… Read more »

WSJM
12 years ago

Well, I think it was very nice of Cardinal Dias to come to the Lambeth Conference and tell us what we ought to do or not do.

It would also be very nice if Presiding Bishop Jefferts Schori were invited to come to the next Synod of Bishops in Rome and tell them what they ought to do or not do.

I’m willing to bet real money that she would be even nicer.

Ian
Ian
12 years ago

I have a mother suffering from Alzheimers and a father who suffered from Parkinsons before he died. I didn’t find the comments in the least bit offensive. Truth hurts

Ken Petrie
12 years ago

I thought this site was called “Thinking Anglicans”. Playing PC word-games with metaphors isn’t thought – it’s the bleating of sheep. Metaphors are an essential party of the thinking process, and to censor them on the basis they will offend people who cannot see past the language is shutting down thought, but then, that has always been the real purpose of political correctness – the term belongs to Soviet Russia, where it originated. As a thinking Anglican, I welcome what the Cardinal had to say, and if he had warnings to give us from his perspective, we would do better… Read more »

choirboyfromhell
choirboyfromhell
12 years ago

When you deny half of the world’s population recognition (and implementation) of the Call, conveniently forget the not so distant atrocities committed or ignored in the past, and lecture another denomination about failing to preach the gospel while your own hemorrhages catastrophically, I’d say that’s the kettle calling the pot black.

This American just learnt about irony on this latest trip to the UK. Lovely example!

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

I am firmly with Cynthia and Trebeard on this having worked with people with various kinds of Dementia.

Erika Baker
Erika Baker
12 years ago

“Isn’t it interesting that Ruth Gledhill’s headline, “Cardinal Ivan Dias: Anglican Church suffering spiritual Alzheimer’s”, appears to be a wilful distortion? He simply didn’t say that.”

Please!! Journalists DO NOT write their own headlines. I thought that was well known on TA by now.

Neil
Neil
12 years ago

Whilst agnostic about the Cardinal’s terminology – though certainly not seeing devils at work as does Cynthia Goran and Treebeard in their reactions – I agree entirely with his point about all of (not just Anglicans) who do not grapple sufficiently with Scripture and Tradition and who would reinvent a gospel and church in their own image. At least Anglicans though are dealing/struggling to find a theology that speaks to the modern world rather than burying their heads in the sand as the RCs seem to be.

Treebeard
Treebeard
12 years ago

It seems that sheep too, may be demeaned with impunity here. And yet they too have their value and life.

Jesus seems to have recognized their value as living beings.

May all beings be well
May all creatures be happy

kieran crichton
kieran crichton
12 years ago

I would say there’s no circus without clowns.

Now to figure out whether the Cardinal is leading the troupe, or some sub editor at the Times.

JPM
JPM
12 years ago

What disease is it when a church engages in an international conspiracy to protect sexual predators?

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
12 years ago

“Metaphors are an essential party of the thinking process, and to censor them on the basis they will offend people who cannot see past the language is shutting down thought, but then, that has always been the real purpose of political correctness – the term belongs to Soviet Russia, where it originated.” “Oh that’s just PC blather” is one way to avoid looking at offensive language someone has used and to attribute over-sensitivity to those who are hurt. I do not know where the term originated, or for what purpose, but now it is used most often by people who… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

Neil wrote: “I agree entirely with his point about all of (not just Anglicans) who do not grapple sufficiently with Scripture and Tradition and who would reinvent a gospel and church in their own image.”

Neil dear, it is the anti Moderns who are busy reinventing “a gospel and church in their own image.” A false gospel.

Treebeard
Treebeard
12 years ago

It’s like the “I’m sorry if anyone was offended” as a substitute for the more honest “I am sorry I hurt you.”

Posted by: Cynthia Gilliatt on Friday, 25 July 2008 at 4:25am BST

Yes, this is more like alocholic denial (and I should know)….

Walsingham
Walsingham
12 years ago

@Erika Baker:

Even if I take that at face value, that doesn’t excuse the lead-in, which Ms. Gledhill almost certainly *did* write:

‘A senior Roman Catholic cardinal has suggested that the Anglican Church may be “suffering from spiritual Alzheimer’s”. Speaking at a plenary session of the Lambeth Conference, Cardinal Ivan Dias, of the Vatican’s Congregation for Evangelisation, also indicated that perhaps the Anglican Communion had “ecclesial Parkinson’s”.’

Again, a willful distortion. And it fits into a pattern.

Ken Petrie
12 years ago

I think this goes to the heart of the Gospel. Is the Church a community of the Redeemed who love and respect each other, or is it a battleground in which any political weapon I can find to get my own way is legitimate? It is not loving to take offence when none is intended, less so to try to censor debate or champion ones own cause. It is not loving to manipulate or throw tantrums or to want ones own way. It is not loving to substitute words someone didn’t use to smear them. I happen to be myopic,… Read more »

Erika Baker
Erika Baker
12 years ago

Walsingham I apologise! I had read the press reports but not the actual speech. Having now read what was actually said I discover the following paragraph: “Much is spoken today of diseases like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s. By analogy, their symptoms can, at times, be found even in our own Christian communities. For example, when we live myopically in the fleeting present, oblivious of our past heritage and apostolic traditions, we could well be suffering from spiritual Alzheimer’s. And when we behave in a disorderly manner, going whimsically our own way without any co-ordination with the head or the other members… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
12 years ago

Has anyone thought that, just possibly, the good Cardinal was speaking (perhaps obliquely) to the hierarchy of his own Church, too?

After all, accepting an invitation to speak at the seminal gathering of another Christian Church does at least hint at a willingness to engage in dialogue, which is different from monologue – as witnessed in some other branches of the Church.

With the reversal of Vatican II’s decision to bring the Roman Catholic Church into the modern world, the Roman Curia has perhaps an even better reason for being called myopic.

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
12 years ago

“it is the anti Moderns who are busy reinventing “a gospel and church in their own image.”

But isn’t it funny, Goran, the lengths they will go to to claim otherwise? Apparently, for many of them, some of the ancient heresies were “orthodox”, or at least minor disagreements, and ideas that were at the heart of Christianity for 1500 years were nothing more than “the traditions of men”, if indeed they are acknowledged to have existed at all. It’s as if history is all some sort of fiction.

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

History is an Art, I grant that Ford.

The most subjective of Arts ;=)

Walsingham
Walsingham
12 years ago

@Erika Baker: No need for apology. At least not on your part. Meanwhile I’d like to see Riazat Butt and Ruth Gledhill apologize for their antics, but I’m not going to hold my breath. The temper-tantrums they’re throwing at not being allowed in are certainly entertaining enough. Meanwhile the press (particularly, but hardly only, Ms. Gledhill and Ms. Butt) seems to be intentionally stirring the pot for all it’s worth. If you read the original speech, it’s actually not all that bad. Thought-provoking, even a bit self-critical (for I agree with Father Ron’s assessment, that the text was direct as… Read more »

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