Thinking Anglicans

Lambeth: Windsor Continuation Group documents

Updated and republished 11 pm Monday Originally published at 7 pm

The full text of the Preliminary Observations issued by the Windsor Continuation Group is now available at ACNS.

Windsor Continuation Group – Preliminary Observations to the Lambeth Conference (Parts 1, 2 and 3)

This document is NOT a report by the Windsor Continuation Group. It constitutes their preliminary observations on the life of the Communion and of the current state of responses to the recommendations of the Windsor Report, and offering some suggestions about the way forward. These observations are offered to the Lambeth Conference for conversation and testing. Are they an accurate description of the current state of our life together?

Update at 11 pm Monday

The document as published by ACNS currently lacks the final page of the paper version which reads

Update 2 pm Tuesday
The omission described above has now been corrected.

Ministering “pastorally and sensitively to all”.

The WCG note that the Resolution 1.10 of Lambeth 1998 included a call for “all our people to minister pastorally and sensitively to all irrespective of sexual orientation and to condemn irrational fear of homosexuals, violence within marriage and any trivialisation and commercialisation of sex”.

We further note that in Dromantine in January 2005, the primates stated that “the victimisation or diminshment of human beings whose affections happen to be ordered towards people of the same sex is anathema to us. We assure homosexual people that they are children of God, loved and valued by him, and deserving of the best we can give of pastoral care and friendship”.

We believe that the time is ripe for the bishops of the Lambeth Conference to reaffirm the commitments expressed in these statements, and to invite them to be committed to challenging such attitudes where they may exist in the societies, churches and governments of the nations in which they proclaim the Gospel as good news for all without exception.

Also, there are problems with the two links to PDF files at the bottom of the ACNS page. One of those links is to the PDF version of the same document(s), which contains the same omission, and the other is a PDF version of the first draft of the Indaba process document, but I am unable to open it on a Macintosh.

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john
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john

Very tedious and badly written. One gets fed up with this endless obsessing over procedure, processes, implementation of already dubious attempts to impose ‘authority’. People have lives to lead. I know many gay persons who lead virtuous lives. Some of them are Christians. Some are Anglicans. Most British people nowadays see no problem in this. Most British, American and Canadian Christians see no problem either. Nor do Brazilian Anglicans. Nor do black South African or Botswana Anglicans. All this is pathetic and demeaning, and infinitely burdensome for our gay brothers and sisters. The C of E – and Anglicanism generally… Read more »

Steven
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Steven

As I read this, much of what comes through to me is the call for a “cease fire.” I think they’d probably get my vote on this. However, cease fires seldom take place until both sides in conflict have come to feel that they would rather stop in place–even though it is not their ultimate goal–than continue to sustain their current losses. In the real world, it is usually the byproduct of a bloody stalemate. And, it definitely appears that the two sides are unlikely to be able to come up with an agreed and comprehensive list of things (to… Read more »

peterpi
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peterpi

“There have been different interpretations of the sense in which ‘moratorium’ was used in the Windsor Report. Our understanding is that moratorium refers to both future actions and is also retrospective: that is that it requires the cessation of activity. This necessarily applies to practices that may have already been authorised as well as proposed for authorisation in the future.” I realize that this is a work in progress, an interim report, but the use of “retrospective” and applying to acts that have already been authorized, alarms the heck out of me. Bye-bye +Gene Robinson? Thanks for all your good… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

Two quick observations and a general comment.

There IS no confusion about the status of Lambeth resolutions. They are advisory only and always have been. Lambeth is not a ruling body for the Communion, nor was it ever meant to be. The only ones who are ‘confused’ about this are the ones who wish to attack TEC and Canada via such resolutions.

The fact of border crossing and vagrant bishops is not ‘controversial;’ it is a clear violation of the practice of the church going back to Nicea.

On the whole, the document does not seem well balanced.

JCF
Guest
JCF

Thought #1: “While acknowledging that resolutions of one Conference have been reviewed, and directions changed at a later Conference, nonetheless, like the resolutions taken by councils of bishops in primitive Christianity, they are of sufficient weight that the consciences of many bishops require them to follow or at least try to follow such resolutions. They are taken after due debate and after prayer by the ministers who represent the apostles to their churches” Are bishops FREE to follow their consciences, or not? Who decides what is legitimate conscience-following, and what isn’t? Re the second sentence: The Church of “the apostles”… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

Thought #2: “The question of the moratoria… * There have been different interpretations of the sense in which “moratorium” was used in the Windsor Report. Our understanding is that moratorium refers to both future actions and is also retrospective: that is that it requires the cessation of activity. This necessarily applies to practices that may have already been authorised as well as proposed for authorisation in the future. * The request for moratorium applies in this way to the complete cessation of (a) the celebration of blessings for same-sex unions, (b) consecrations of those living in openly gay relationships, and… Read more »

karen macqueen+
Guest
karen macqueen+

It would be well for all of us to be calm as this “report” is considered by the bishops at Lambeth. This is a report of the Windsor Continuation group, charged with making recommendations for the implementation of the Windsor Report. If Simon will allow me, I will offer several entries critiquing each of the important parts of this report from the various perspectives in TEC. To get to the bottom line, however, if the Lambeth Conference were to support the ABC in implementing these recommendations, more or less in their present form, I think the following would ensue: 1.… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

Thought #3: What’s with all the EUPHEMISMS??? “the swift formation of a ‘***Pastoral*** Forum’ at Communion level to engage theologically and practically with situations of controversy as they arise or divisive actions that may be taken around the Communion” “The existence of such a Forum might be included in the Covenant as a key mechanism to achieve ***reconciliation***” “We believe that the Pastoral Forum should be empowered to act in the Anglican Communion in a rapid manner to emerging ***threats to its life***” [Euphemisms are highlighted] First of all, w/ all the calls for “swift formation” and “empowered to act…in… Read more »

Hugh of Lincoln
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Hugh of Lincoln

Will Lambeth 2008 be remembered chiefly for the structural humiliation of an openly gay bishop, the plight of gay Africans highlighted by the granting of asylum to Davis, and the disenfranchisement of gay Anglicans wishing to have their civil parterships affirmed by the church community?

Notice how the language has been strengthened from “moratoria” – suggesting a temporary prohibition – to “complete cessation” – implying a permanent move.

karen macqueen+
Guest
karen macqueen+

Critique from a TEC perspective: “a common understanding of the role of the episcopal office within the sensum fidelium of the whole church”. This recommendation will not be well received by the General Convention of TEC, if it survives discussion at Lambeth. First, what ” whole church” is this recommendation referring to? It seems to imply that there is a world-wide Anglican Church. Apart from this being a theological fiction, the General Convention will not welcome any recommendation that seems designed to “enhance” the role of bishops in TEC to a point where their role will be more like that… Read more »

Columba Gilliss
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Columba Gilliss

There is something very presumptious in saying
that any group are “children of God, loved and valued by him” as if our/the bishops assembled/or anyone can tell God whom to love. Perhaps, ‘we recognize that God loves .. .’ would be more humble. But, they willing to live that out?
Columba

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Quite simply, TEC should tell them to bog off. The final page of the document is, in any case, hypocritical rubbish. Mealy mouthed religionist nonsense which would be laughed out of court in any other walk of life.

Its either equality or institutional homophobia – there is nothing in between as hard as the Church might try to be in more than one place at once.

‘Pastoral care’ is about as much use as a chocolate teapot and its about time these wet apologists for discrimination woke up and recognised that it ain’t enough and never will be.

karen macqueen+
Guest
karen macqueen+

Another critque from a TEC perspective: “The Archbishop of Canterbury – is described as having an ‘extraordinary ministry of episcope, support and reconciliation’ (Lambeth, 1988); ‘the central focus of unity and mission within the Communion [with authority] to speak directly to any provincial situation on behalf of the Communion where this is deemed to be advisable’. (Windsor Report 2004)” The General Convention will resist any enhancement of the authority of the ABC vis a vis TEC. The majority simply do not trust him or his ecclesiology. Some factors that have contributed to this distrust include: 1. the refusal of RW… Read more »

karen macqueen+
Guest
karen macqueen+

Another critique from a TEC perspective: “The request for moratorium applies in this way to the complete cessation of (a) the celebration of blessings for same-sex unions, (b) consecrations of those living in openly gay relationships, and (c) all cross border interventions and inter-provincial claims of jurisdiction.” Now we come to the presenting issues: The General Convention will not agree to a complete cessation of the celebration of blessings of same sex unions. We have already passed a resolution, after Lambeth 1998, that stated that, although there is disagreement in the Church over this issue, we regard the blessing of… Read more »

drdanfee
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drdanfee

Yawn, as a queer person involved in this or that ethical activity in my daily life and relationships, I cannot much agree with the unceasing tone of crisis, as if we are all supposed to be nothing but utterly shocked that queer folks openly live among us, displaying all manner of goods which our religious theories solemnly inform us are impossible for them to live, according to very strict and very plain traditional definitions. Yawn, If I had waited for Canterbury to tell me I was called to be the best queer person I could be, let alone a majority… Read more »

Ren Aguila
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Ren Aguila

I am not very impressed, to be honest, with the activist ranting on this site. The Americans think the battle has been joined but to be honest, in the country of one of their partner churches, the ECP, it will be very difficult to get the so-called “gospel of inclusivity” across. Why? A recent survey found that, across all religious groups, whether Christian or otherwise, same-sex relations are always wrong. I’ll quote the pertinent passage here: ‘In 1998, another huge 84 percent of Filipinos called sexual relations between two adults of the same sex “always wrong.” This was the average… Read more »

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Yawn, as a queer person involved in this or that ethical activity in my daily life and relationships, I cannot much agree with the unceasing tone of crisis, as if we are all supposed to be nothing but utterly shocked that queer folks openly live among us, displaying all manner of goods which our religious theories solemnly inform us are impossible for them to live, according to very strict and very plain traditional definitions which seriously reserve a great many of those goods, exclusively to exclusively heterosexual people, again by traditional definitions. Yawn, If I had waited for Canterbury to… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

My personal reaction to these three documents is very mixed. Firstly, being a Christian brought up in the Church of England, a former Franciscan Brother, and now a retired (honorary) priest in the N.Z. Anglican Church; I am mindful of the need for Christian Unity within the world-wide Communion – but not at any price. Secondly, I feel that what is being asked of the women and gays of the Church is to “bide your time, your day may come” – a call not unlike the Roman Catholic call to revert to pre-Vatican II enlightenment in spirituality and liturgy. Meanwhile,… Read more »

BillyD
Guest
BillyD

Come to think of it, I guess I’m surprised that they’re not trying to make TEC stop ordaining gay priests.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Peterpi wrote: “Therefore the moratoria, in my humble opinion, are one-sided.” It is a proposition which will not last. Dead in the water. Won’t hold. Not to mention highly Immoral. Trading property against Human Rights!?… Who could have though this up other than Apparatchniks? Now, does anybody believe this scheme, really?? “Trading” some of the most valuable property in the World (on the threshold of Washington, in the Virginia cases, no less ;=) against losing Human Rights for gay people??? TEC should give up many of its congregations and churches – and Gay American Citizens their Civil Rights? Why not… Read more »

karen macqueen+
Guest
karen macqueen+

Another critique from a TEC perspective: “The request for moratorium applies in this way to the complete cessation of …b) consecrations of those living in openly gay relationships…” General Convention will not agree to this “request”. The best that the Primates could get out of General Convention 2006 was an agreement to “exercise restraint in consenting to the consecration” of persons whose manner of life would cause problems for the communion. Why? General Convention has twice taken a formal position on the inclusion of lesbians and gays in the life and ministry of the Church, including a resolution phrased in… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Karen McQueen+ wrote: “Is it not tragic that things have come to this? But no Covenant or other provision will change the facts, sad as they are.”

Inept leadership.

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Ren Aguila quoted: “’In 1998, another huge 84 percent of Filipinos called sexual relations between two adults of the same sex “always wrong.” This was the average of 83 among Catholics, 88 among other Christians, and 88 among non-Christians—hardly any difference by religion. On the other hand, in 1998 those calling same-sex relations “always wrong” were minorities of 46 percent in the CW and 30 percent in the NCW. I have no idea why Catholicism makes some difference in Western Christian countries, but no difference in the Philippines. What I want to point out is that, in such areas, attitudes… Read more »

Jay Vos
Guest

Sheesh, as a queer man, I’m supposed to take this stuff seriously? The pastoral care bit in that report is insulting. I’m getting so sick of this crap, I just wanna say to the bishops, “oh, just go away.”

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Some points: 1st Co-dependency: “Bishop Handford acknowledged that would leave a number of congregations currently under the care of African archbishops without a home. A new “pastoral forum” would care for them, pending a more formal agreement.” 2nd Dysfunctional family language: “It’s a bit like having a member of the family who is not getting on with the family, having an aunt or uncle who can take them under their wing while they work for the restoration of the family.” 3rd Abdicating their resposability: “It is a sign of official recognition that some sort of two-tier Communion could be among… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Ren With activists ranting on this site you mean the kind of people who want to protect those persecuted like Davis Mac-Iyalla, right? And you mean those of us who just want to be allowed to live in love and peace, regardless of what an individual in Nigeria or in the Philippines might think about that. If people in the Philippines believe same sex is wrong then it’s up to them not to sanction it in their own country, provided they do not persecute gay people. I cannot see why it should affect a single one of them if another… Read more »

magistra
Guest

I suspect that there is enough of a fudge here that the Church of England will not split, unlike ECUSA. I think one big difference is that gays in England (unlike in the US) do not *need* Anglican support. The UK state protects and supports them pretty throughly (and there’s little chance of this changing, given David Cameron’s just attended the civil partnership of a cabinet friend) and homophobia is in drastic decline nationally. So the C of E can presume on the patience and long-suffering of its gay members, who have chosen to help try and turn the supertanker… Read more »

William R. Coats
Guest
William R. Coats

All these anguished attempts to “save the Communjon,” All these senseless arguments which merely paper over reality. What seems to me abundantly clear is the necessity for a split. We should not try to patch up the Communion with these awkward, desparate and ultimatley futile means and measures. We need a split. It alone will clarify who we are (not Pastoral Forums or covenants – each more cumbersome and ridiculous than the next). Why this desopration to “save the communion” when at present it cannot be salvaged? And why assume it is not God’s will for us to part ways.… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

Will Bishop Gene continue to pray with his Franciscan friends in Canterbury – and ask them, of their charity, to pray for our Communion?
We in the South Pacific will join with you.

UBI CARITAS ET AMOR. Love, Joy and Peace!

Ren Aguila
Guest
Ren Aguila

Erika, you said: Why does the view of people in the Philippines matter, but the view of Americans does not? Why is it important what Nigerians think, but not relevant what liberal members of the CoE believe? Because, in the end, the center of Christianity is shifting from the North to the South. (Remember the average Anglican comment?) We in this country are definitely part of it. And the South, let’s face it, is working pretty hard to preserve the things people in North America take for granted, like the heterosexual family. Filipinos will not deny people like you the… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

Personally, ‘Magistra’, I would rather the Church shake off the bonds of hypocrisy – acknowledging that we are all sinners, in one way or another, and none of us has the right to cast the first stone. “I came, not to redeem the righteous” said Jesus, “but sinners”

Sadly, the ‘Church of the Righteous’ seems to be gaining the upper hand in some quarters, whereas Jesus’ experience with the Scribes and Pharisees should warn us of God’s hatred of duplicity.

May God have mercy on us all!

James
Guest
James

I don’t understand why it is wrong for conservatives to break some of the most ancient canons of the church by crossing diocesan boundaries, but it is ok for liberals to break some of the most ancient canons of the church by ordaining and consecrating practising homosexuals and blessing homosexual relationships. Can somebody please explain this to me? I mean, surely if one is wrong, so is the other?

For information on canon law regarding homosexual practice, see section 3 of ‘Between Agape and Eros: revising traditional Orthodox teaching on homosexuality’ by Andre Florin at http://weblog.xanga.com/swissdivine/562993145/between-agabe-and-eros-revisiting-traditional-orthodoxy-teaching-on-homosexuality-by-andre-florin.html

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“Come to think of it, I guess I’m surprised that they’re not trying to make TEC stop ordaining gay priests”

Hush hush! Right now they think +Gene was found fully priested under a cabbage leaf!

If you let them know there are gay and lesbian priests in TEC [and everywhere else in the Communion, for that matter] they might come all over faint.

And don’t tell them there are lots of other bishops just like +Gene out there. They might just pass out!

Fr Mark
Guest
Fr Mark

magistra: the cost of the C of E policy that you outline above, though, is not providing full pastoral care to our gay members; dishonest clergy playing the system and honest ones getting thrown out of it; bishops continuing to speak platitudinously about justice while having no credibility with anyone else in society because they don’t attend to this question of justice. In short, the cost is the sacrifice of gay churchpeople and of the credibility of the institution. Worth paying? Morally right? Attractive to the outside world that we so urgently need to reach? One really does wonder what… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Ren I know you believe what you believe with sincerity. I just completely fail to see why, in a Communion of churches, national churches cannot follow their own discernment process provided they don’t impose it on anyone else. What binds us are the creeds, the 39 articles and the Chicago Lambeth Quadrilateral. What we think about sex, the death penalty, divorce, usury, the acceptability of waging war, whether the MDG are a good thing or not, and whether it would be good to curb the use of fossil fuels to combat the greenhouse effect is of secondary nature. I still… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

James wrote on Tuesday, 29 July 2008 at 11:58am BST: “I don’t understand why it is wrong for conservatives to break some of the most ancient canons of the church by crossing diocesan boundaries, but it is ok for liberals to break some of the most ancient canons of the church by ordaining and consecrating practising homosexuals and blessing homosexual relationships. Can somebody please explain this to me? I mean, surely if one is wrong, so is the other?“ Well James, if – as your link seems to suggest – you want to defend the time honoured tradition of the… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“…you have to understand that a large number of people in the Global South–not only the Philippines–feel betrayed that you are abandoning the values your forebears taught us. How, for instance, marriage is a life-long relationship between man and woman. And how a family is founded upon these things.”

Not abandoning, expanding. Making them available to those from whom they were excluded before.

choirboyfromhell
Guest
choirboyfromhell

Ren, in answer to one of your questions is that science and a willingness to be more honest about ourselves is demonstrating that certain “canons” that James quoted and “values” that our (U.S.) ‘forebears’ taught are just plain wrong.

And in case anybody here thinks that what happened to Davis can’t happen over here (or in the UK for that matter), try telling that to the folks at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church. Those killings were LGBT hate fueled. Plain and simple. What did I just say? PLAIN WRONG!

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“We assure homosexual people that they are children of God, loved and valued by him, and deserving of the best we can give of pastoral care and friendship”.”

Is there anybody out there who can give me one credible piece of evidence that anyone in GAFCON even understands what this means, let alone considers it a good way to behave? Unless you consider imprisonment, manipulative brainwashing, and the deliberate spreading of misinformation about gay people to be “the best we can give of pastoral care and friendship”, I sincerely doubt it. Any conservative? Anybody at all?

Merseymike
Guest
Merseymike

Then, Ren, the answer is to have separate bodies representing the different views – not to expect the ‘North’ to abandon progress in favour of premodern prejudice. Quite simply, homophobia is unacceptable.

Personally, I can’t reconcile gay and lesbian equality with Christianity any more, so I no longer view myself as a Christian.

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“I can’t reconcile gay and lesbian equality with Christianity any more”

Redemption; grace; liberty from guilt, Law, death itself; removal of fear of anything the world has to offer; knowledge of the presence in your life of a God who holds you in the palm of His hand and who loves you despite all your imperfections; showing that full self-sacrificing love to the world, that means nothing because some people are too narrowminded to validate you in the way think you are entitled to?

Hugh of Lincoln
Guest
Hugh of Lincoln

Sadly, the word ‘Christian’ has become a byword for homophobia for many people. It ought not to be the case, which is why the efforts of those working to achieve better religion from the inside with the support of those looking in from the outside are worthwhile. A recent example of this was Andrew Marr’s interview with Gene Robinson and Ian McKellan – one of the most touching collaborations I have seen. The Chief Rabbi’s comment yesterday during a speech to the Conference was a stark reminder of the dangers of stigmatization and the effort needed to achieve peaceful co-existence… Read more »

peterpi
Guest
peterpi

I have so many observations, I can’t think straight (never mind become straight). 1) Thank you Karen MacQueen+, your observations are right on! You express succinctly what many of us feel. Especially posts 12:48 and 1:47. Your parish is lucky to have you! 2) I think conservatives expect liberals to follow resolution 1.10 part 1 to the fullest, while conservatives feel free to blatantly ignore parts 2 and 3. Likewise conservatives expect the moratoria on blessings, and consecration of bishops (and ordination of priests?), to be strictly followed, while they are free to continue diocese poaching. 3) We in the… Read more »

magistra
Guest

Why should the C of E fudge the issue and be hypocritical, at the cost of gay Anglicans and its own credibility? Essentially, I would say, because there are English Anglicans who are now opposed to gay marriage who can be persuaded with time and patience that it is acceptable. Alongside the hardline bigots, there are a lot of people who are still ignorant about gay people, because they’ve never knowingly known any. They are likely to base their views on gays on a few celebrities and activists (which is like learning about heterosexuality on the basis of Brittany Spears).… Read more »

Malcolm+
Guest

In the same way that the report of an ad hoc committee has, by some bizarre transfiguration, an immutable foundational document for the Communion, we have already begun to see how the “preliminary observations” of another committee have become the basis for hard and fast rule making.

Feh!

Ren Aguila
Guest
Ren Aguila

Thanks for all your replies. To be honest, I can only wonder why this is driving both sides apart. When Bishop Schori was here in town, I think that, when I heard her speak about the MDGs and how the Episcopal Church both in my country and in the US are working hard to achieve them as part of the gospel mission, I felt proud to be a Christian. But it’s easy to believe the reasserter critique of the Episcopal Church that the Church, far from proclaiming the Gospel, has become nothing more than a mere NGO or social welfare… Read more »

JCF
Guest
JCF

“the South, let’s face it, is working pretty hard to preserve the things people in North America take for granted, like the heterosexual family.” I don’t have the slightest idea what this means (beyond being a “reductio ad absurdum”). Would this include the “Sudan female=chattel” Southern model? (See http://my-manner-of-life.blogspot.com/2008/07/sudanese-statement-marriage.html ) “We wouldn’t want to kill off gays and lesbians as in Nigeria,” Are you looking for applause, Ren? “…but you have to understand that a large number of people in the Global South–not only the Philippines–feel betrayed that you are abandoning the values ***your forebears taught us.*** How, for instance,… Read more »

Bo
Guest
Bo

Addressing only item 4 –

1) Because Bishops are Bishops within the entire communion – (the ABC’s recognition that the Bishop of San Joaquin is still and Anglican Bishop even though now under the Southern Cone should be evidence of that).

2) Because you can’t call blessed what the scriptures call sinful (If it were one of the ‘doubtful things’ I’d be all for ‘diversity’ but as it is contrary to the ‘needful things’ it is a place where unity should be the order of the day…)

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

Bo wrote: “1) Because Bishops are Bishops within the entire communion – (the ABC’s recognition that the Bishop of San Joaquin is still and Anglican Bishop even though now under the Southern Cone should be evidence of that).” Surely, to be true, this would have meant an invitation to Lambeth for xSan Joaquin? 2) Because you can’t call blessed what the scriptures call sinful (If it were one of the ‘doubtful things’ I’d be all for ‘diversity’ but as it is contrary to the ‘needful things’ it is a place where unity should be the order of the day…) Sorry,… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

Ren “but I wish too that you should all have your positions on the matter open too” You are asking me to be open about the morality of my own life, as though it was simply a theological position I was holding and not everything I am. This really isn’t negotiable. I can be open about true theological questions, but I cannot pretend to be unloved by God and sinful simply because some other people don’t know this yet. You guys can keep on talking about us as though we were a mere ethical problem. In the meantime, I shall… Read more »