Thinking Anglicans

Lambeth: some other stories

Updated Sunday morning

Daniel Burke of Religion News Service interviewed Bishop Eugene Sutton of Maryland. The Washington Post carries this story at Raising Issues Of Race in Anglican Rift.

The Times had interviews with seven bishops by Bess Twiston Davies in The Anglican balancing act, in a church near you.

The Los Angeles Times had an unsigned opinion article, Adding to division.

Martin Beckford reports in the Telegraph that Archbishop may be forced to do fundraising tour to solve £1m Lambeth financial crisis.

Related to this is the ACNS press release, Finances and the Lambeth Conference 2008.

The webcast press conference held by Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori and Bishop Mark Sisk is reported for Episcopal Life Online by Solange de Santis here.

Sunday morning update

Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori wrote for Comment is free The road from Lambeth.

I wrote a second column for Wardman Wire Lambeth Conference: Sex or Power?

More about the Lambeth financial deficit in the first few minutes of the BBC Sunday programme, listen here (URL for one week only). See also this BBC report, Church considers £1.2m shortfall.

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Bill Carroll
Bill Carroll
12 years ago

“But, lacking the authority of the pope, Williams can’t order the two sides to exercise restraint, and some in both camps are likely to defy him.” Defy is a rather strong word. We’re going to ignore him, not defy him. This whole thing is like when your homophobic uncle wants you to disown your gay child. Perhaps Archbishop Rowan is the friendly grandfather, who while personally sympathetic wants the child to stay away from family gatherings for a while for the sake of “unity and good order.” The time will come when the family sees that grandpa’s posture, which might… Read more »

Mr. Arabin
Mr. Arabin
12 years ago

My bishop reported back from Lambeth on Thursday, and is certainly in favor of the “moratoria”, although my bishop expresses far more concern over same-sex blessings and the sexual orientation of bishops than over boundary crossings and the morphing of a “communion” into a “church”. It was a very depressing report, made more so by the fact that my bishop seems to be far more concerned about the plight of people in far corners of the globe than of the members of this diocese. But I agree with Mr. Carroll – this isn’t about defiance at all. It is about… Read more »

Davis d'Ambly
Davis d'Ambly
12 years ago

“It was a very depressing report, made more so by the fact that my bishop seems to be far more concerned about the plight of people in far corners of the globe than of the members of this diocese.” Mr Arabin

Well, perhaps it’s because of the dire circumstances of many in far corners of the globe. As a bishop he ought to be concerned with both, of course, but the church is dealing with some extreme situations – in some cases life and death – in some lands.

drdanfee
drdanfee
12 years ago

Bravo to both Frs. Carroll and Arabin. I think they put careful touches, right on the sorest family life Anglican points. So we have Rowan’s considered opinion – if the global communion still pledges flat earth things about queer folks – about letting their gifts of honesty and faithfulness be honestly recognized up to and including calls to ministry? – about letting their gifts of care and commitment in relationships be honestly recognized as well? – then that is the leadership he feels he can exercise at this point on his watch as ABC. Can that stop people following the… Read more »

choirboyfromhell
choirboyfromhell
12 years ago

What was truly telling in the videotaped interview of TEC Presiding Bishop ++KJS and +Sisk was the complete lack of knowledge outside of North America that we in TEC had indeed “pulled back” in our care of the LGBT community by having a “moratorium” on electing Bishops of admited same sex orientation and committed relationships. I agree with Bill Carroll, but take it one step further. ++Williams may be trying to play the fence by continued emphasis of Windsor 1:10, but his excluding +Robinson was a clear act of ignoring the “listening process” that was encouraged by it. A doddering… Read more »

Cheryl Va.
12 years ago

Bravo to Carroll, Arabin and Drdanfee The grandfather model is excellent and applies beyond offering succour and grace to GLBTs. That same model of “protecting the family” led the churches to aid and abet pedophiles, tolerate misogyny and turn a blind eye to abuse that was being done against parishioners either by the priests or church “leaders”. Jesus promised the Daughter of Zion gentleness and there is meant to be a covenant of peace. It appears for some that their idea of gentleness and peace is that no one says or does anything that might upset or embarass the priesthood.… Read more »

JCF
JCF
12 years ago

The (London) Times spoke to 7 bishops (worldwide) for their article, and the one from the USA was *Beckwith*? (Talk about non-representative!)

Merseymike
Merseymike
12 years ago

And interesting that he still expects the Americans to foot the bill. perhaps they should employ the begging bowl tactic of Nigeria (a country which should be extremely wealthy but isn’t owing to corruption).

In other words – have the money, now do what we want!

You’d think Williams might have a little more dignity – well, no, maybe not.

David R. Lyon
David R. Lyon
12 years ago

It occurs to me that ++ Rowan might include Nigeria
as one of his stopovers on his ” quest for cash” trip…

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
12 years ago

“Well, perhaps it’s because of the dire circumstances of many in far corners of the globe. As a bishop he ought to be concerned with both, of course, but the church is dealing with some extreme situations – in some cases life and death – in some lands”. This opinion, Posted by: Davis d’Ambly, presumes that the Christian acceptance of homosexuals is not a matter of life and death. How, then, would he consider the fact that the gays of Nigeria, and other countries of the Global South fraternity, whose Bishops are actively supporting government persecution of gays, is not… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Cynthia Gilliatt
12 years ago

“You’d think Williams might have a little more dignity – well, no, maybe not.”

I think he lives in his own little mental snow globe.

David Walker
David Walker
12 years ago

Fr Ron helpfully points out that there are “life and death” matters for gay and lesbian people too. Indeed, the granting of asylum to Davis Mac. whilst he and we were at the Lambeth Conference is clear evidence that even the UK government recognises that. The Windsor Continuation Group spelled out in one of their papers to the conference that they see an important next step being for Anglicans to support the decriminalisation of homosexual acts across the globe. I hope that doesn’t get lost amidst all else, as it seems a wholly necessary precursor to being able to discuss… Read more »

Louise
Louise
12 years ago

“Nobody is being sacrificed but none of us can have everything we want immediately; a desire which is, after all, the creed of Western materialism rather than Christianity.” This isn’t a new car or a three piece suite people are talking about – its the fate of people, like my friends, who were brought up as children in churches which taught that homosexuality was a wicked sin against God, thus leaving them thinking they were going to Hell or sinning grieviously when they began as adolescents to fall in love with other people. Children growing up in that position are… Read more »

Merseymike
Merseymike
12 years ago

No, David, you are simply making excuses for premodern homophobes again.

drdanfee
drdanfee
12 years ago

Thanks lots Louise, you focus my mind and heart wonderfully. Yes, part of Coming Out is all about: (A) wanting to get on with all the best possibilities in equal citizenship and daily life, apart from and beyond all the traditional falsehoods and burdens, plus always, always, always: (B) not wanting anybody else to have to walk blindfolded through all that traditionalistic church life and cultural mine field of abomination tag words and a great deal else – sexual assaults to shape you up and make you a real man or a real woman? There is great violence innate to… Read more »

Spirit of Vatican II
12 years ago

It is just name-calling to say R Williams is homophobic. And as one of the posts above notes Jefferts Schori has gone along with him on the moratoria suggestion. “So we have Rowan’s considered opinion – if the global communion still pledges flat earth things about queer folks – about letting their gifts of honesty and faithfulness be honestly recognized up to and including calls to ministry? – about letting their gifts of care and commitment in relationships be honestly recognized as well? – then that is the leadership he feels he can exercise at this point on his watch… Read more »

Jay Vos
12 years ago

Bill Carroll’s comment is spot on. Thanks.

Treebeard
Treebeard
12 years ago

This is good news — I ahd no idea. So much bumf to wade thru –or not. I suggest taht the WCG and the anlican Churches start by setting an example themselves. ‘Decriminalisation of homosexuals acroos the’ anglican globe would be an excellent start. ‘The Windsor Continuation Group spelled out in one of their papers to the conference that they see an important next step being for Anglicans to support the decriminalisation of homosexual acts across the globe. I hope that doesn’t get lost amidst all else, as it seems a wholly necessary precursor to being able to discuss with… Read more »

JCF
JCF
12 years ago

“We now recognize that inclusion is of the essence of the Christian Gospel and are prepared to adhere to that interpretation, the concerns and advice of the Communion notwithstanding.” I just want to expand on Bill’s point. This ISN’T the case, as with the reasserters, that we’re adding a “5th Requirement” to The Quad. Rather, the realization of that inclusion (which is not “LGBT inclusion”, but a systematization of the lessons of inclusion discovered in the 50s and 60s and 70s w/ race and gender) is an intrinsic implication of the *CREEDAL* requirement of The Quad. Since 1979 (almost 30… Read more »

Fr Mark
Fr Mark
12 years ago

“Nobody is being sacrificed but none of us can have everything we want immediately; a desire which is, after all, the creed of Western materialism rather than Christianity.” That’s a pretty shoddy comment, I think, David Walker: I am a product of your Church and your society, the time and place in which you live, not someone just flown in from another planet. The Church is as much ours as anyone else’s – it’s not our fault if the English bishops have been operating a head-in-sand policy for the last few years when they should have been providing better leadership.… Read more »

Walsingham
Walsingham
12 years ago

Sigh. No sooner is Lambeth over, and we’re right back to the “you’re with us or against us” rhetoric. It’s only rather more galling when it comes from the side that screams loudest when the likes of President Bush do the very same thing. And as Spirit of Vatican II notes, ++Katherine has signed up to ++Rowan’s “homophobic” stance. Now, if ++Rowan and ++Katherine are now to wear the label of “homophobic” for their efforts, then where does that leave the rest of us bleeding-hearts? Has it occurred to any of you lot tossing the “homophobic” label around so carelessly… Read more »

--sheila--
--sheila--
12 years ago

“Nobody is being sacrificed but none of us can have everything we want immediately; a desire which is, after all, the creed of Western materialism rather than Christianity.” My former rector tried to use this argument. I replied, “Well, how long should gay people wait, then? 20 years? I know gay couples who have. 30 years? I know gay people in partnerships who have been waiting for a church blessing for that long. How much longer should they wait?” I think he reconsidered his opinion after that. Using the words “…have everything we want immediately” in the context of these… Read more »

karen macqueen+
karen macqueen+
12 years ago

So, the ABC may be forced to go on a fundraising tour to pay off the Lambeth deficit. And, evidently, he plans to come to the United States, where he expects TEC to pick up much of the tab. He has got to be kidding!!!! Someone is kidding us here, right? Will this transpire just before the Ecclesiastical SWAT team (otherwise known as the Pastoral whatever) descends upon us benighted Americans to institutionalize border crossings on behalf of the ABC, who will now become the Grand Poobah of the American Church? Oh, forgive me, I forgot. There is no American… Read more »

Fr Mark
Fr Mark
12 years ago

Walsingham: “Sigh. No sooner is Lambeth over, and we’re right back to the “you’re with us or against us” rhetoric.” It was Jesus who said “He who is not for me is against me”, though, wasn’t it? I think part of the problem we are experiencing currently comes from the C of E’s poor history with regard to justice issues. Unambiguous stands for justice make many Anglicans feel uncomfortable: I became aware of this when working with asylum seekers; and those working for the full inclusion of women at every level in the Church have often been dismissively termed “mere… Read more »

kieran crichton
kieran crichton
12 years ago

The Lambeth Conference and the Olympics finally have something in common. The poor so-and-so’s who have to host the party end up with a nasty bit of debt to deal with — but then again, at least with an Olympics there is some decent public infrastructure to remember the event by….

WilliamK
WilliamK
12 years ago

Responding to Walsingham’s post…. I’m having trouble seeing where ++Katharine “has signed up to ++Rowan’s ‘homophobic’ stance.” But, if she has, that’s simply her personal decision as a bishop. She can’t make a decision for the whole of TEC. Our General Convention will do that next summer, and I’m expecting we’ll reject the demands for moratoria. On “homophobic”… I dislike the casual use of this term, which implies that oppression of LGBT folk is based on irrational fear. I much prefer “heterosexism,” which calls a power dynamic what it actually is (just as “racism” and “sexism” do). Heterosexuals assign themselves… Read more »

Ben W
Ben W
12 years ago

Ron Smith, Is that the issue, “Christian acceptance of homosexuals is … a matter of life and death?” Is this accepting the dignity and humanity of another? Protection of and civil rights for all is important. If that is what this about than I am with you. But as it is there is basic confusion here. There are all kinds of people who find themselves in transgression of Christian moral teaching. Think of the person who has become addicted to drugs and now resorts to stealing in order to deal with the addiction. Do we simply endorse this? Or do… Read more »

Fr Mark
Fr Mark
12 years ago

Ben W: you are doing your usual thing of comparing gays with criminals. Desist, please: we are not intrinsically any less respectable than anyone else!

JCF
JCF
12 years ago

“Has it occurred to any of you lot tossing the “homophobic” label around so carelessly that your actions are just going to create what amounts to a gay ghetto church? Is that *really* what you want?” – Posted by Walsingham

I’m at a loss for words, Walsingham. Truly. Assuming your handle comes from “Our Lady of”, she’s weeping now…

“Gay ghettoes” come FROM homophobia, NOT from naming it! (As Jewish ghettoes came from anti-Semitism, etc.)

Lord have mercy…

Jerry Hannon
Jerry Hannon
12 years ago

Unless BenW intends to be identified with the propaganda chiefs of the Nazi’s or Maoists or other totalitarians, then I would suggest that he refrain from his attempts to slander homosexual persons by making comparisons with those associated with criminal behaviour, thieves, or with those who choose aberrant and destructive behavior, addicts.

Homosexuality, except in highly repressive societies, is not a crime, and it is certainly not a choice.

It is a very old and tired rhetorical trick, Sir, which will not be accepted by any person of normal intelligence who embraces basic human respect.

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
12 years ago

Dear Ben, Again, you have mistaken the thrust of what I have tried to say. And it is this: If what I do is at all a cause of hurt to another, then I am culpable. The old theme of “Do as you would be done by” is a quite nice paradign of the Gospel. And do remember, Ben; that Christ is the epitome of what God expects of his human children. It is from Jesus that we draw our compassion and love – the Word-made-flesh, not just words in a Book, no matter how holy the Book. This why… Read more »

Ben W
Ben W
12 years ago

Fr Mark,

I want to understand you and I proceed with the expectation that is your aim as well. Then we will keep to the point of comaprison.

In Biblical terms, I think you will agree, homosexuality falls along with other things like stealing within the scope of moral issues (e. g. adultery and stealing may be compared as moral issues, though in legal terms one is a crime the other may not be). If you want to make this something else you can, I will not chase down that tangent with you. Keep well.

Ben W

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

Ben W wrote: “There are all kinds of people who find themselves in transgression of Christian moral teaching.” Christian Moral teaching isn’t. It is not in the Biblical Texts, it is not Christian it is Hellenism. There is a lot of it in various “translations”. But these are Academic forgeries from the 2nd Millennium. Some of them were changed only after 1970. they were claimed to address different “issues” du jour from the 12th century until then. Noting original, if one does not take Romans 1:26-27 as Clement of Alexandria around 170. And you wouldn’t like that, would you? “There… Read more »

Walsingham
Walsingham
12 years ago

@JCF:

The point being that by your own actions, you’re creating that ghettoized church by chasing off anyone who disagrees with you. Precisely the same unbecoming childish behavior as the conservative extremists, I might add.

Which is exactly what makes it so sad: Many of those preaching “tolerance” are really saying everyone must think the same way they do, or get lost — which is anything but tolerant.

Lord have mercy indeed.

Walsingham
Walsingham
12 years ago

@Fr Mark: There is a major difference between you saying someone is with you or against you, and Christ saying the same. Christ calls us to unity in Him, not to division. Christ also calls us to self-sacrifice. I don’t see too many here doing much sacrificing. On the contrary, I see people insisting on their way or no way at all. God’s will be done, not mine. @WilliamK: Your snark is ill-placed. If a moderate such as myself is not welcome in your “inclusive” church, pretty soon you’re going to have a pretty small church. As for what people… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
Martin Reynolds
12 years ago

“ I am gae – but if my family found out they will arrange for me to be sacrificed. I would “be kidnapped” as far as anyone knew – and never returned.” I spent a large part of yesterday with this brother African Anglican – he tells a very familiar story – he knows people who have “been kidnapped” and never seen again: “They were gae too.” He was returning home after visiting his sister who works as doctor in the US, we have a mutual friend and so he came just to discuss how difficult it was for him… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
12 years ago

“In Biblical terms, I think you will agree, homosexuality falls along with other things like stealing within the scope of moral issues (e. g. adultery and stealing may be compared as moral issues, though in legal terms one is a crime the other may not be).”

I would not agree. Theft and adultery are both proscribed by the Ten Commandments. Homosexuality is not.

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
12 years ago

With reference to ‘Walsingham’ (we have her statue in my church, by the way, and I can’t help thinking she would be an ‘inclusive’ Jewish mother in all of the hubbub) – I think you will find that it was not TEC who absented themselves from the Lord’s Table (koinonia)at Dar es Salaam, but Bishops of the Global South who were showing a hissy fit because the TEC Bishops would not accept their restrictive view of the scriptures. Furthermore, the actual threat of schsim has not come (yet) from TEC or the Canadian Anglicans, it has already been declared as… Read more »

Walsingham
Walsingham
12 years ago

@Father Ron Smith: I’m not the one tossing about insulting labels for those who hold views of the Church differing from my own. I should also add that yes, I am “radically inclusive” — in that I welcome our GLBT brothers and sisters as well as those of a conservative bent. Just like that loving Jewish momma you have a statue of. As a matter of fact, there are calls starting up for TEC to effectively leave the Anglican Communion, right here on this blog, on the HOB/D mailing list, and elsewhere, to get away from the “homophobes”. That sure… Read more »

Ben W
Ben W
12 years ago

Ron Smith, Get real, ++ Rowan Williams warned already before Gene Robinson was ordained if TEC goes forward on this it will be “walking apart.” That is not so hard is it? It is action that spits in the face of the larger communion and says we will do what we want without regard for you or what has been common understanding of scripture and traditon. That is I think a suffcient definition of “threat of separation” or “schism” initiated by TEC! (if you need it). Now you say, “So please do not accuse the ‘Inclusive Church’ fraternity/sisterhood of breaking… Read more »

Ben W
Ben W
12 years ago

Ron Smith, In response to your note to me, you say I have mistaken your point. But you say nothing about how or in what way, instead you give me a little “preachment.” You reference the golden rule. Fine, follow that when you respond to what I actually say. Patronising cannot take the place of reasonable discussion. That includes being real about Jesus, you say he is the epitome of what God intends for us. No argument there. The only question is, does that include anything Jesus has to say? (or can we just follow our own fantasy here?). If… Read more »

Ben W
Ben W
12 years ago

Pat,

What do we have here then?

According to this thread so far … for one person to reference the language from scripture on homosexuality is “slander,” for another there is no “Christian moral teaching” (not in the Biblical texts that is all Hellenism), for a third it is all summed up in “judge not…,” and finally for you it is “not in the ten commandments.” OK – where do we go with that? This we expect as direction for Christian faith and life? What kind of option is that?

Ben W

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
12 years ago

Ben: If the common understanding of tradition and scripture is to change to meet new science and new knowledge, it has to start somewhere. Someone has to stand up and say, “This is what I believe and I will act in accordance with that belief.” Wilberforce, anyone? Luther? Or are you arguing that we should not adapt our understanding of scripture and tradition when faced with new data from the natural world? Would you have turned Galileo over to the Inquisition? And YOU were the one who compared homosexuality to two of the things proscribed in the Ten Commandments, clearly… Read more »

Ben W
Ben W
12 years ago

Pat, On the point, you skip conveniently past the basis for Christian moral teaching and simply do not face up to the actual empty disarray of views here that I set out in my previous post. Views that supposedly you see as the basis for another way!? Keeping to actual cases here, you say, “This is what I believe and I will act in accordance with that belief.” Wilberforce, anyone? Luther?” Good words! Now Wilberforce and Luther both stand there because they stand with scripture. Both deeply formed and shaped by the teaching of the gospel they are able to… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
12 years ago

Whoops, that should have been “Since it is NOT so proscribed….”

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

Ben W wrote: “… for another there is no “Christian moral teaching” (not in the Biblical texts that is all Hellenism), for a third it is all summed up in “judge not…”

So Ben W lets be clear… What you say is that state sponsored homophobia (14 years of gaol in Nigeria, life sentences, capital punishment in some places…) is the “Christian moral teaching” there is? None other??

Am I reading you correctly???

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
12 years ago

“Now Wilberforce and Luther both stand there because they stand with scripture. Both deeply formed and shaped by the teaching of the gospel they are able to act in faith against the pressure of the larger society.”

And the church authorities of their time told Wilberforce and Luther they were wrong, that they were misinterpreting the scriptures.

Sound familiar?

WilliamK
WilliamK
12 years ago

From Walsingham…. @WilliamK: Your snark is ill-placed. If a moderate such as myself is not welcome in your “inclusive” church, pretty soon you’re going to have a pretty small church. ……. Snark? Not welcome? Good heavens, Walsingham, you’re thin-skinned! I can assure you that you are most welcome in my “inclusive church” (I like your scare quotes). There would be just one condition: you’d have to be able to live with being disagreed with and asked to set out your views in a clear way … which is what you got from me. Disagreeing with what you regard as your… Read more »

JCF
JCF
12 years ago

“by your own actions, you’re creating that ghettoized church by chasing off anyone who disagrees with you.” Excuse me, but what do YOU know of my “own actions”, Walsingham? Posting on this blog? I am a lay Episcopalian, who has no more power through my own actions, than voting for my representatives to the *diocesan convention* (FWIW, LGBT issues have never come up at their elections, to the best of my recollection) I’ve never “chased off” anyone, except that they might *feel disagreed* with. As the Holy Spirit gives me utterance, I’m going to SPEAK, thank you very much. ***… Read more »

JCF
JCF
12 years ago

[Conclusion] “Yes, gay folks may have to go without … official sanction for blessings of gay couples, again for the time being” As bad as the moratorium is on (partnered) bishops-made-gay, the other moratorium is WORSE. Do NOT tell me The Closet is an acceptable compromise/status quo! EVERYBODY knows that marriage is hard enough *as it is*: the burdens of The Closet is a (mined) bridge TOO far. Furthermore, experience has shown TEC, that we NEED to revise our prayerbook every generation or so. The 1979 BCP was great, but it’s time is UP. The moratorium Rowan would impose, would… Read more »

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