Bishop Nick Baines, who authored a blog for Fulcrum during the Lambeth Conference, and has his own blog here, has written an article, The Lambeth Conference 2008, a review after six months. He says:
It is a review not of the conference itself, but of the conference as reflected in the blog I wrote during it.
Baines carelessly repeats the schismatic talking point that TEC is deposing “conservative bishops.”
In truth, the bishops who have been deposed have not been disciplined because they are conservatives but because they have left the church.
It’s amazing how many otherwise intelligent people cannot grasp that very simple but important distinction.
Bishop Nick Baines strongly criticizes the “tactics” of GAFCON supporters: “Misrepresenting those with whom disagreements are serious is not on. Manipulating people in order to achieve one’s own political goals is unacceptable. The end do[es] not and cannot justify the means and subterfuge cannot be justified biblically even if some feel (as more than one person has put it to me) that ‘any means are justified when you are fighting a war’.” I welcome his forthright statements, and wish he were not still the victim of deceptions and misrepresentations. Alas, he is. He states that the “deposition of conservative bishops… Read more »
Bishop Baines mentions the deposition of certain bishops by the Episcopal Church. These bishops were not deposed because they held conservative beliefs. Many bishops in the Episcopal Church do. They were deposed because they had publicly stated that they no longer belonged to the Episcopal Church. To bmake a secular analogy, we didn’t find them and deport them, we cancelled their passports after they renounced their citizenship. If there is a way to make sure that those who have publicly stated that they no longer belong to our Church do not continue to exercise authority in our Church and control… Read more »
Thank you Charlotte for picking up the same passage as myself. Jesus is the atoning sacrifice, the one who intervenes to avert’s God’s wrath from those who deserve it. It is time to clarify that covenant with Jesus further. God continues to honor that covenant, and those souls who partake in deception, violence, repression, theft, adultery, attempted genocide will find grace with Jesus and a heaven in which they can hide. The covenant with Jesus means that God will not unleash the full force of the wrath against such souls. That said, there are no restraints on how God chooses… Read more »
Honest he is about gays at Gafcon.
“Christian hope is not rooted in theology or dogma or even ethical consistency. Christian hope is rooted in God – the God who holds up wounded hands in a resurrection body and refuses to let death, destruction, manipulation, misrepresentation, conflict or anything else have the final word. I think St Paul hit on something similar.’ – Bishop Nick Baines, on ‘Fulcrum’ – What a precise and wonderful exposition of what the Gospel is really all about. In the end, none of us is ‘worthy’ of redemption, but God, in Christ, has already redeemed and continues to redeem us. To declare… Read more »
…and nowhere does Nick Baines say that TEC Bishops have been deposed for being conservative. He simply notes that all of them are. For a while I used to post on the Anglican Mainstream website to try and enter into dialogue with conservatives: sadly all I got was knee-jerk reactions, stock responses, and abuse. There is a danger that similar knee-jerk reactions are appearing on Thinking Anglicans, which I think is a shame. Already, I detect a considerable amount of ill-judged language that borders on abuse (‘Trolls’, Charlotte?) We could all do with much more careful listening and thoughtful responding:… Read more »
Yes, “trolls,” Simon B. We’ve had a good many here, but they are not trolls if they are actually interested in dialogue. I am curious about one statement in your post, Simon B. How do you read the phrase “the deposition of conservative bishops”? I think the literal, grammatical reading, in the absence of any other qualifier, is: “the deposition of bishops for being conservative.” But that is not why they were deposed. Therefore the phrase misrepresents TEC’s actions. Some in the C of E (e.g. “Pageantmaster,” on “Stand Firm,” who seems to be somebody big in London) are publicly… Read more »
Jim Naughton, I want to make a public appeal to you.
Would you consider going on the Fulcrum Forums to correct misrepresentations of TEC’s actions, as you find them? You would seem to be in an ideal position to do so.
Simon B is probably right to suggest that I’m too bilious to do it myself.
Fulcrum has shown itself to be open to differing views, unlike (for example) Anglican Mainstream (I wouldn’t have wasted my time, actually, Simon B.)
While we are at it, here’s a new misrepresentation, from Nick Mackenzie, on the “Religious Intelligence” website (http://www.religiousintelligence.co.uk/news/?NewsID=3618): “The Anglican world is about to be plunged into a new crisis over sexuality as the American Diocese of Colorado ordained an openly gay and partnered priest yesterday. “Under terms agreed between member Churches of the Anglican Communion, there is a moratorium on ordaining further openly gay people, but Bishop Robert O’Neill (pictured) ordained Mary Catherine Volland, along with three others, to the priesthood at St. John’s Cathedral on Saturday.” If Nick Mackenzie means, by “terms agreed,” the Windsor Report — then… Read more »
“nowhere does Nick Baines say that TEC Bishops have been deposed for being conservative. He simply notes that all of them are.” But their theology is IRRELEVANT to their deposition, Simon B! The above commenters at TA have simply (correctly) noted the actual *grounds* of their deposition: not conservative theology, but schismatic, vow-breaking ACTIONS. The SMEAR that TEC is deposing/inhibiting/persecuting people for their theology, is one that we Episcopalians are naturally touchy about, from bitter experience of being painted w/ this Big Lie. It’s not “knee-jerk” on our part if, when we see the Big Lie in print AGAIN, we… Read more »
Well thanks to Bishop NB for noting that the core ethical demonstration of the conservative realignment Anglican campaign has sadly been its reliance on dubious ends justify means rationales – especially in support of false witness against neighbors who think or inquire or discern alternatively, as well as continued support for preaching that any alternative believer indicators are sufficient to prove that alternative Anglican believers have broken the trust held in global common such that they then fully deserve whatever realignmet believers might decide to say about them or do towards them. Again to beat the fact horse which is… Read more »
It does seem, on balance from the comments here, that perhaps Bishop Nick Baines, and certain other ‘conservatives’, could be misrepresenting the grounds on which the ‘conservative Bishops’ of TEC (as well as other conservative theologians in both Canada and the USA) have been ‘let go’. It should by now be quite clear that those who have been officially barred from ministry in TEC and the Church of Canada left those Churches no other option – in view of the fact that they have declared THEMSELVES to be no longer under the legitimate jurisdiction of their parent Churches. This FACT… Read more »
Charlotte, does anyone actually take Religious Intelligence seriously?
It strikes me as the Fox News of the religion beat: pure right wing spin.
(How else can one describe a story claiming that the recent California Supreme Court ruling represents a defeat for the Diocese of Los Angeles?)
JPM, yes, there are people who take Religious Intelligence seriously. Quite a few do where I live (Dio. of Central Florida). George Conger, who wrote the story I believe you are referring to, is no slouch as a reporter, whatever presuppositions he may bring to his work. But then quite a few people watch Fox News too. It was the top-rated cable news channel in the US for quite a while. Thee and I may not do either, but (with respect, JPM) I am reminded of the old story about the academic liberal who expressed surprise that Richard Nixon had… Read more »
“I am reminded of the old story about the academic liberal who expressed surprise that Richard Nixon had won re-election to the presidency: “How could that be? Nobody *I* know voted for him!” Considering Nixon’s and his henchmen’s attempts to shred the Constitution, his attacks on the press, his enemies list, and, as we now, know, thanks to his secret taping, his antiSemitism and penchant for foul language, perhaps you could have picked a better example. Of course, until the last eight years, I thought The Trickster was the worst threat to the Constitution we’d ever have, which only proves… Read more »
It wasn’t an academic liberal in that story: it was Pauline Kael, the film critic for The New Yorker.
At any rate, Religious Intelligence strikes me as more a mouthpiece than a journalistic enterprise, and Conger’s presence there strengthens that impression rather than mitigate it.
Spin, spin, spin. I suppose it might impress some people.
Cynthia Gilliatt, I think you’ve misunderstood the point I was trying to make. Let me try again, if I can. It wasn’t my intent to indicate support for Richard Nixon, or Fox News, or Religious Intelligence, for that matter. But it is a fact that, in 1972, enough people voted for Richard Nixon to crush the McGovern candidacy. It is a fact that a great many people in the USA at present swear by Fox News and believe what it tells them. So: they were and are wrong. Very well. Our job is to persuade them of that. Simply disdaining… Read more »
“I don’t think the Episcopal Church ought to disdain answering these smear campaigns. I think it ought to be countering slanders with clear and forthright truth. Don’t let’s keep on living inside our cozy liberal bubbles. Eventually (we are finding out in the United States, now) they come for us, too.” I DID misunderstand your oroiginal post – thanks for your patience with me. And I think you are dead right in what I’ve quoted. Had the Dio of VA acted quickly and firmly early on, we might not have to spend a bunch of money trying to keep Minns… Read more »
“Already, I detect a considerable amount of ill-judged language that borders on abuse (‘Trolls’, Charlotte?)” You’re right, of course, and I am one of the more obviously guilty. Yet we DO have trolls, we have had numerous conservatives come on this site, even protesting that they are seeking honest dialogue. But it doesn’t take long to see that they are far more interested in venting their anger at those they consider to be their oppressors and and repeating over and over all the reasons they feel hard done by with actually little inclination to engage in meaningful dialogue. We all… Read more »
I think it worthwhile noting that the very liberal Bishop Charles Bennison of Pennsylvania is on the cusp of being deposed…
Cynthia, thanks for your response (I share your visceral feelings, by the way) — and Ford, thank you for yours. Not for the first time, you’re a role model. Back to work for me on rendering no man evil for evil!
“Not for the first time, you’re a role model. Back to work for me on rendering no man evil for evil!”
Oh my, I fear if you go following my example, we’ll both end up in the ditch! And, while I might often be reminded of that old blessing, it doesn’t mean I’m all that good at putting it into practice.