Thinking Anglicans

Primates to meet in Alexandria

The Anglican Communion Office has issued several notices about the forthcoming meeting in Alexandria, Egypt from 1 to 5 February. See

History of the February 2009 Primates Meeting
Media Advisory on the 2009 Primates Meeting
Press Media Accreditation

Episcopal Life Online has vastly more information at Primates to address international concerns at February meeting in Alexandria, Egypt including this:

The primates will also hear an update from the Windsor Continuation Group and receive a report the group is presenting to the Archbishop of Canterbury. The group, which last met in December 2008, is charged with addressing questions arising from the Windsor Report, such as recommended bans on same-gender blessings, cross-border interventions and the ordination of gay and lesbian people to the episcopate.

The Living Church reports in GAFCON Primates Prepare Case for New Province that:

The Rt. Rev. Robert Duncan, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh (Anglican), is involved in “an unanticipated series of consultations with the primates who originated the call” for a new Anglican province in North America, participants in an Anglican theology conference have been told.

Bishop Duncan had been scheduled to address “North American Anglicanism After GAFCON and Lambeth” at the Mere Anglicanism conference in Charleston, S.C. Instead, the Very Rev. William McKeachie, dean of the Cathedral Church of St. Luke and St. Paul which is the conference location, read a letter from Bishop Duncan. He said that following consultations about the proposed new province between Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and members of the GAFCON primates’ steering committee in London last month, Archbishop Williams had asked that a paper be prepared setting out the situation and the hopes for a new structure. The Archbishop invited the primates to forward the case to the Anglican Consultative Council along with their comments.

Bishop Duncan said the GAFCON primates will present the paper and make the case for an alternate province during the primates’ meeting in Alexandria, Egypt, next month…

Dave Walker’s cartoon at the time of the last primates meeting can be seen here.

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Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

Can anyone on the other side of the pond explain to me why the ABC listens to the obviously wacko Dunkin’?

He used to sign his rants “Bob Pittsburgh.” How does he sign now? “Bob Cone?”

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

Yes..and why is Gregory Venables not presenting a petition from Reform/FIF for an alternative province in England or the recognition of The Church of England in South Africa.

Why should TEC be treated like this and the cross-borderers get away with it?

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

Cynthia, I don’t think it is so much a case of the ABC ‘listening’ to former Bishop Duncan, as his desire not to exclude the voice of the Global South Primates – who are still – despite their tendency to dissidence from the Communion, members of the Communion. The ABC wants to be seen to be ‘inclusive’, despite their tendency to be exclusive. Time will tell what will actually happen to the ‘communique’ from Global South. Meanwhile we all need to pray for the will of God to be experienced by the whole Church in the outcome of the meetings… Read more »

Richard Warren
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Richard Warren

What a load of barnyard droppings. Let’s all not forget the old saw about telling a lie often enough it takes on the appearance of the truth. Bob Duncan wants to be a primate of something so much he will do or say just about anything to make it so.

Pluralist
Guest

Ephraim Radner’s recent writings decode to suggest a watered down Covenant…

http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com/2009/01/covenant-watering.html (but thanks to Not the Same Stream)

http://notthesamestream.blogspot.com/2009/01/coming-covenant-iii.html

And I have a hymn:

http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com/2009/01/follow-up-song.html

JCF
Guest
JCF

Courage, friends: I think it quite possible that the ABC is making nice to GAFCON, only because he KNOWS the votes for them (and their delusional “new Anglican province in North America”) AREN’T there…

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“The ABC wants to be seen to be ‘inclusive’, despite their tendency to be exclusive.”

“Inclusive” with quotation marks is right – meaning he doesn’t mind EXcluding the duly elected, consented to, and consecrated Bishop of New Hampshire, but will INclude the deposed former bishop of Pittsburgh, as well as all the bordercrossers and thieves from the Global South. By your friends shall you be known.

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

“why is Gregory Venables not presenting a petition from Reform/FIF for an alternative province in England…? – R.I. Williams – Robert, still stirring??? If Archbishop Venables were to petition the ACC, he would be doing so with tongue in cheek as he already has his very own ‘Alternative Province’ -incorporating a few dissenters (like Messrs Bob Duncan ad Jack Iker and Jim Packer) from TEC and the A.C.of C. It is called the Diocese of the Southern Cone. Why would he want anyone else to take away his ‘alternative’ primacy? I don’t think anyone from the Churches in Britain and… Read more »

John B. Chilton
Guest

Notice what Living Church says Duncan says was “invited” by Williams: “Williams had asked that a paper be prepared setting out the situation and the hopes for a new structure. The Archbishop invited the primates to forward the case to the Anglican Consultative Council [read that again: the ACC] along with their comments.” In other words, it’s just a polite way for Williams to tell Duncan to follow the procedure any group must if it wants to be recognized as a province — and now we have even Duncan admitting it. And if you’ll check that procedure it requires consent… Read more »

Prior Aelred
Guest

Really, as I’ve said before (citing Mark Chapman of Cuddesdon), they ought to come up with a name besides Anglican “Communion”, since the primates refuse to receive Communion together (sorry, but the ABC’s Anglican “Church” is even more off base).

Thomas+
Guest
Thomas+

Let’s try this for size– The GAFCON primates will officially recognize the pseudo-Province. (Duncan et al need this to try keep the hijacked properties and to protest the “invasion” of TEC into their backyard, and then having a “reason” to continue their schismatic strategy). Aspinall will say that even if recognition was discussed it never came to a vote, because there is a process that should be followed. I earnestly hope someone from the press would ask Aspinall, “Did the group come closer to say to Duncan and the GAFCON primates that they shouldn’t be doing what they are doing?”… Read more »

Robert Ian Williams
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Robert Ian Williams

Ron..Gregory heads a Province not a diocese. My point is why should they pay attention to this division and ignore the 137 year division in South Africa and the ambition of the third province people in England?

the moment you give in to Duncan the flood gates are open.

Stirring?… i think the pot it is cooking well enough!

Robert Ian Williams
Guest
Robert Ian Williams

Its also just announced on Virtue on line that the new denomination will never countenance female bishops. Apparently Bishop Iker made a speech and he also states he is prepared to accept GAFCON even though it is Evangelical.

Fawlty Towers …let no one mention the war,

Gafcon..let no one mention Sydney and Diaconal celebration.

penwatch
Guest
penwatch

The North American schism is now almost complete and is effectively running out of steam. Canterbury merely needs to procrastinate at this stage. In due course, when conservative American monies run out, the other Provinces supporting Bishop Duncan et al will gradually return into the mainstream Anglican fold.

cryptogram
Guest
cryptogram

penwatch wrote: “Canterbury merely needs to procrastinate at this stage.”

Isn’t that what’s happening? The request for a written proposal is a classic delaying tactic. Most of us in ministry in the CofE have often been asked by an archdeacon or a bishop for “a single side of A4” – so we recognise it well as the way to kick a ball into the long grass. If I may mix metaphors a bit.

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“The North American schism is now almost complete…”

How about a more accurate term than ‘schism?’ That term suggests to the casual reader a ‘split,’ in which half go one way and half another. In fact, those ex-Episcopalians constitute something much closer to a splinter than a split. And once you get the splinter outof your finger, it will soon stop hurting.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Wow thanks lots for the MCU related links, which somehow eventually passed me over onto a variety of other sites where I could indulge my interest in early church and ancient culture including the non-canonical texts now being studied. We thinking believers now have huge ferment as contexts in which to inquire, think, discern, and rediscern the closed judgments of our past – with a keen eye out for letting the case of Galileo caution us, always, for the considerable time being. Pledging some new covenant which respects and acknowledges how dramatically we are respositioned may be impossible. Better to… Read more »

Ford ELms
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Ford ELms

“he is prepared to accept GAFCON even though it is Evangelical.”

I guess it’s all a matter of priorities.

Joe
Guest
Joe

Cynthia G. is quite correct: the situation in North America is a split (or splinter), not a schism. Unfortunately, she only sees the issue with arrogant, Western eyes. When 800,000 people leave 55 million it is, indeed, a splinter – not a split.

BobinSWPA
Guest
BobinSWPA

Penwatch has hit it on the head. Duncan can’t win in a Pennsylvania Court. Monies will continue to dry up. Also, I witnessed this past weekend our local Presbytery voted to reject a proposed amendment that would allow non-celibate gays and lesbians to be ordained. This too is being funded by IRD and other conservative groups. How much money can they dole out? I would think that considering the change in political power in the U.S. they’d be better served spending their monies in the political arena.

Pat O'Neill
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Pat O'Neill

“When 800,000 people leave 55 million it is, indeed, a splinter – not a split.”

This assumes…as the conservatives always do…that the non-democratically selected leaders of the non-Western churches truly represent the beliefs and attitudes of their congregations. We have no evidence for that. I’m sorry, as far as I can see, Akinola, Orombi, et al represent no one but themselves.

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“Unfortunately, she only sees the issue with arrogant, Western eyes.” I was only commenting about the situation vis a vis TEC. Duncan, Minns etc have led a splinter out of that Province. They have allied themselves with other provinces of the Anglican Communion, which indeed are large in numbers of communicants. Some bishops and archbishops of the Global South certainly despise us. How many of their flock have time to think about exegesis of the 7 smackdown verses and the polity of TEC while trying to find food and water for their families, avoid marauding armies of child-soldiers, simply survive… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

One wonders whether the dissident Primates (largely from Africa and Southern Cone) will even be present at the Primates’ Conference – let alone try to defend their invasions of North American Dioceses of TEC and the A.C.of C. on the grounds of their own moral superiority. Their protests against women in ministry will be only partial. Their unity exists around the question of the ordination of gays, plus their claim to a literalist understanding of the Bible (well at least those passages which seem to back up their own prejudices) – which may not be enough to persuade the more… Read more »

Jon
Guest

Can anyone confirm that the ABC actually asked Bishop Duncan for a paper justifying the ACNA? If so in what terms did he couch the request? Was it in the terms specified in the ACC constitution or as cover for him to support the group or what?

Jon

Joe
Guest
Joe

Cynthia, two corrections: (1) GS bishops do not despise Western churches (TEC or ACoC), they do believe, however, that the leadership in these churches is apostate. The truth is they pray for you and long to see your bishops offer true repentance and an amendment of life. (2) While you seem to understand something of the suffering GS (Anglican) Christians are facing, what you assume about their understanding of the issues and their resolve in facing them is, quite frankly, elitist and racist. Yes, ordinary Christians know very well the price they are paying for their convictions. They know what… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

Joe:

While I firmly believe that it is the Holy Spirit that calls TEC and others to acknowledge the rightness of committed same-sex relationships, and that the GS churches are ignoring a similar call to themselves (about that issue and others), I would never have the hubris to call them “apostate” because of that difference.

Why?

Because it is so much a third-order disagreement… having nothing to do with theology, Christology, or even ecclesiology. Apostasy should be caused by something far more central to our faith than the sexuality of some small part of our congregations.

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“GS bishops do not despise Western churches (TEC or ACoC)” They claim we are are all “revisionists” or “reassessors” who have sold out the Gospel to the world in search of public approval, giving no regard whatsoever for the theology and compassion that has led TEC and ACofC to these positions. They deny our faith. They also falsely claim that they are being oppressed by the “reassessors”. Then there is the claim that you yourself have made: “TEC has forced them to make that choice!” How has TEC done this? Has TEC demanded that any GS church marry gay people… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“they pray for you and long to see your bishops offer true repentance and an amendment of life.” The issue here is that they, at least some of them, have no moral authority to call others to repentance and amendment of life. Peter Akinola, for instance, lost that moral authority, at the latest, the day he lent his support to a bill that would jail gay people and their supporters for five years. He has to repent of that and amend his life before he has any credibility to call others to repentance. That’s the point. They need to repent… Read more »

Joe
Guest
Joe

Pat, sexual deviancy from biblical standards is not the issue, it is only the presenting issue. The heart of the matter is the authority of Scripture. So, yes, in this case the actions of TEC are heretical. Special revelation is the source for an orthodox Christology. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit is the source of special revelation how can one hold an orthodox Christology derived from Scripture while denying what has likewise been revealed with regard to anthopology and/or hamartiology? Now, Ford, what’s the politically correct way to say it? Oh, yeah, you’ve got some moxy! Please stop reading (and… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“…what you assume about their understanding of the issues and their resolve in facing them is, quite frankly, elitist and racist.”

I was trying to say that for most non-bishops in the Anglican global south, daily survival is a much more pressing issue than TEC’s policies.

TEC, as another writer has said, does not seek to impose its policies or polity on others.

Pat O'Neill
Guest
Pat O'Neill

“Pat, sexual deviancy from biblical standards is not the issue, it is only the presenting issue. The heart of the matter is the authority of Scripture.” But scripture has never been the sole authority in Anglican tradition–what about reason? And if we are to be so absolute about this particular bit of scripture, what about so many others? What about divorce? What about usury? Reason and science have led us to think differently about so much of scripture…about “the pleasant poetry of Genesis”, to use the phrase from the play “Inherit the Wind” and so much else once considered the… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“Yes, TEC demands allegiance to their heresy as a requisite for aid to GS churches, and that is precisely why the GS churches have been forced to refuse it. It came with strings…it always comes with strings.” -Joe This is either an instance of genuine ignorance or a lie. I know that TEC aid, whether by way of Episcopal Relief and Development or by way of individual dioceses or churches, never has any theological or doctrinal ‘strings.’ My own Diocese of Virginia has sent one of or own to Sudan, the Diocese of Renk, as a teacher for young men… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“it always comes with strings. It’s either arrogance or ignorance …” Ignorance, then. So, have patience and provide me with the evidence I need, since I have never seen any. “the Lambeth call (1.10) for the church to “listen” to homosexual persons wasn’t a matter of studying the practice in order to find a way to make it suddenly compatible with Scripture” I never said it was. Check the archives here. I have consistently remarked on how the conservatives who claim to be so concerned about our salvation did NOT carry out any kind of listening process so as to… Read more »

Joe
Guest
Joe

“You are doing what I do regularly: assuming that because someone expresses certain positions…that person must fit all your other stereotypes…” – Ford On this point, Ford, I concede. I was wrong and I apologize. I ashamedly admit I do it far more frequently than I want or even realize. I beg your forgiveness. Furthermore, may I say to all whom I have engaged on this board, that I don’t post here in order to score points for my side or to take pleasure in adversarial polemics. Actually I grieve deeply every time I get involved in a conversation here,… Read more »

Cynthia Gilliatt
Guest
Cynthia Gilliatt

“Ignorance, then. So, have patience and provide me with the evidence I need, since I have never seen any.” Go to the Diocese of Virginia website http://www.thediocese.net for details about our mutual relationship with the Diocese of Renk, Sudan. [I tried to send a direct link in my previous post but it didn’t come through.] If you go to the Episcopal Cafe website and go into its archives, you can read several reports by The Rev. Lauren Stanley, who works in Sudan on our behalf and has done so for the last either 4 or 5 years. You should find… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

Joe, no need to beg for anything! Look back at the number of times I have done exactly what you did. We all do this because we feel passionate about what we believe and feel deeply hurt and angry at the actions of “the other side”. Trust me, your anger and hurt at the actions of TEC are very much like mine at the actions of people like +Akinola. I can’t speak for +Kolini as much, but from what I know, he’s not much better, yet you think highly enough of him to put yourself under his pastoral care. But,… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

“Of course, the “listening” clause became (as you’re using it now) an opportunity to avoid the claims of scripture instead of a means to help people find freedom from sin.” – Joe 21.Jan 8.46 – Joe, I think here that you may be restricting the meaning of the word ‘listening’ as being the mere ‘hearing’ of the case for LGBT and Women’s inclusion in the ministry and mission of the Church. It might be better if you were able to try to visualise and dig a little deeper into what the word ‘listening’ really implies – which is to listen… Read more »

Erika Baker
Guest
Erika Baker

” which is to listen creatively, in a way where any response to what is heard comes as a result of actually ‘thinking about’ what is being said. “

Well said.
True listening enables you to see the other person as they are, not as you imagine them to be.
True listening takes the other seriously and recognises them in their whole complexity.
True listening can result in you disagreeing with the other person, while respecting them and their integrity.

Kennedy Fraser
Guest
Kennedy Fraser

A wee parable: We were recently driving with friends to a party in Edinburgh. We weren’t entirely sure of our way so the faithful satnav was pressed into action. The destination was entered, routes and estimates of distance and time of arrival were calculated and we were on our way. However, as we passed the south end of the Forth Road Bridge things started to go slightly awry. The satnav was telling us (in its very pleasant and persuasive voice) to take the first exit at the roundabout in 100 metres. Unfortunately, it was plainly obvious that there was no… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“to listen…..but also to “What the Spirit is saying to the Church” In fact, Fr. Ron, I think this is where the problem lies. Conservatives don’t, for various reasons, including their mistaken understanding of the role of Scripture in the faith, believe that TEC is listening to what the Spirit is saying. I have to admit, I have my misgivings as well. I just finished talking on another thread about what seems to be the attitude in TEC, and to a great extent in Canada, that we get together and vote on what we think is right, with little concept… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest
Father Ron Smith

“Oh, and the party was great and we got home safely. Like other wise men from the east, who had received a word from the Lord, we went home by another route.” – Kennedy Fraser – What a lovely parable, Kennedy! Perhaps we need much more parabolic teaching in the Church. After all, Jesus used parables to convey truth much deeper than the basic message of the words. This, I believe, is how we need to treat our study of the Scriptures – treating them as parable, rather than (sometimes questionable) historical facts. It’s good that, like the Three Wise… Read more »