Thinking Anglicans

news from the primates meeting

Last updated 22.30 GMT Tuesday

ACNS Pope Shenouda receives Anglican primates in Alexandria

Times Online Ruth Gledhill Anglican primates to discuss “two-tier” communion and also
Anglicans meet in Egypt to discuss plan to prevent Church split

Anglican Church of Canada Paul Feheley Primates’ Meeting starts on a low key

Guardian Riazat Butt Sexuality debate looms as Anglicans gather in Alexandria

ENS Matthew Davies Primates begin to meet; international concerns, Anglican covenant to top agenda

Living Church George Conger Primates Unsure What Egypt Gathering Will Achieve

Changing Attitude Colin Coward Primates meeting Day 2 and earlier Alexandria Primates meeting Day 1
Update Two more items, Primates meeting Day 2 – What has changed? and Primates meeting Day 3 – behind the lens and laptop.

Anglican Communion News Service Primates Meeting begins with celebration in Egypt and this has a link to a podcast of the Archbishop of Canterbury’s Sermon (15 minutes, 14 Mb)

Times Online Ruth Gledhill blog article Archbishop of Canterbury: ‘Churches must not be too busy.’

Anglican Church of Canada Paul Feheley The Primates’ Meeting: “The person praying next to me …”

Living Church George Conger Meeting Must Honor Past Decisions, Primates Say

Religious Intelligence George Conger Primates’ Meeting opens in ‘fog of confusion’

Guardian Riazat Butt Williams sensitive to limits of his authority, archbishop says

ENS Matthew Davies Primates discuss Anglican covenant, Zimbabwe crisis in private sessions

Changing Attitude Colin Coward Primates meeting Day 2 – the GAFCON paper and Primates’ Meeting Day 2 St Mark’s Cathedral Dedication

ACNS Primates Meeting questions language of sanctions and this has a link to an audio recording of the press conference held on Monday.

Living Church George Conger Primates See Covenant ‘With Teeth’ As Unrealistic

Religious Intelligence George Conger Anglican Primates discuss Covenant solution to problems and Primates tackle human sexuality issue

Anglican Church of Canada Paul Feheley Stretching the soul

Several more blog entries by Colin Coward here, including interesting pictures.

Comment is free Riazat Butt Ice-cold in Alex and Covenant of the Paddington stare

I will start a new article tomorrow morning.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest
30 Comments
Oldest
Newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
drdanfee
drdanfee
12 years ago

Hmmm looks like the Gledhill cautions still apply – what does she know, how does she know it, and what else is going on in context that she just happens to background or ignore? Meanwhile she paints a rather pat view of Rowan Williams as the Great Preserver of our global communion fellowship of provincial churches. Does anybody in their right, common sensical mind really believe that dividing the communion in this way – one tier that is doggedly pre-Galileo in its presuppositional hermeneutics and one that is more or less post-Galileo in a range of varied Anglican hermeneutics –… Read more »

Robert Ian williams
Robert Ian williams
12 years ago

Pope Shenouda authored a booklet very much against homosexuality and female ordiantion. I met him In Egypt and called him to Catholic unity.

Lapinbizarre
Lapinbizarre
12 years ago

Such modesty, RIW.

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
12 years ago

More nonsense from Robert I williams: “Pope Shenouda authored a booklet very much against homosexuality and female ordiantion. I met him In Egypt and called him to Catholic unity.”

What on earth has this to do, Robert, with the meeting of Pope Shenouda with the Anglican Primates in Alexanria?

Second question? As a newly-born-again R.C., did your approach to Pope Shenouda have any practial outcome, or did he simply put the phone down?

Frank
Frank
12 years ago

Looks like the main benefit of the Communion’s decision making procedure is that it is so lengthly and boring that it might serve to stop people getting over excited. When it comes to finding a way to solve disputes, and to open minds to the opinions of others, the Church appears no more Godly than other political forums in civilised lands.

Robert Ian Williams
Robert Ian Williams
12 years ago

I met him in Egypt, Ron. By the way the GAFCON Diocese of Nelson has strong links with the Diocese of Egypt.

Simon Sarmiento
12 years ago

Pope Shenouda’s views on homosexuality are not in doubt, see
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/ShenoudaHomosexuality.php

Kurt
Kurt
12 years ago

Surely, there are enough clever theologians in North Atlantic Anglicanism to talk this “Covenant” idea to death for the next 10 or 20 years; or until the con-evos and Anglo-Papalists get tired and leave of their own accord, yes?

By the way, happy Ground Hog Day to all!

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

Simon Sarmiento wrote: “Pope Shenouda’s views on homosexuality are not in doubt, see
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/ShenoudaHomosexuality.php

I just wonder how the history behind the reasoning might look, for – as we know – Greek malakós (“soft” of clothes, cf Luke 7:34 and Matt 11:8), but in Western late modernity translated “passive gay” (Fr Zerwick 1966), stil translates (also erroneously) “men – and women – who masturbate” in the East – and has taken that meaning in Modern Greek ;=)

How does ++Shenouda translate???

Prior Aelred
12 years ago

Colin Coward’s remarks seem encouraging (to me, anyway).
BTW, Egypt’s laws against homosexual practice are Draconinan in the extreme (& result in many complaints about violations of human rights).
Also, I haven’t noted any comments about the fact that Pope Shenouda traveled to Nashotah House several years ago to receive a DD.

BillyD
12 years ago

“Pope Shenouda’s views on homosexuality are not in doubt, see…”

Pretty unsurprising, except for the linkage of AIDS and homosexuality. I would think that somebody from Africa might know better.

choirboyfromhell
choirboyfromhell
12 years ago

LGBT folks, step to the back of the bus.

toby forward
12 years ago

Surely, there are enough clever theologians in North Atlantic Anglicanism to talk this “Covenant” idea to death for the next 10 or 20 years; or until the con-evos and Anglo-Papalists get tired and leave of their own accord, yes?

By the way, happy Ground Hog Day to all!

JPM
JPM
12 years ago

Any sightings of Minns and Sugden skulking around the corridors yet?

JCF
JCF
12 years ago

Instead of this whole hierarchical “Two-Tier” schema, wouldn’t a better way to describe it be, “A Communion with a Holier-Than-Thou CLIQUE within (?) it”?

[Note: the noises out of Alexandria still suggest that the CofE will be part of the clique—when we know that, by law, it can’t be.]

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
12 years ago

Thank you, Simon, for pointing us to the article by Pope Shenouda. What he has to say about Gays should convince the Anti-Gay protesters in our Church that the Coptic Church in Egypt might just be their true spiritual home. The absolute diatribe this papa is capable of will, no doubt, have excited the vivid imagination of people such a David Virtue (of virtueonline infamy) who is present at the Primates Meeting in Alexandria, ready to act as handmaiden to the likes of the Global South Primates, who will now be able to look to the sayings of Pope Shenouda… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

Simon Sarmiento wrote: “Pope Shenouda’s views on homosexuality are not in doubt, see
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/ShenoudaHomosexuality.php

As we know that malakós (soft, of textiles, in Luke 7:25 and Matt 11:8) in late modern Times (post 1952) is rendered “homosexuality” in the West, but still (beginning in the 10th century) as “Masturbation” in the East (and the 1966 New Catholic Encyclopaedia) having taken on that “meaning” in Modern Greek, we wonder how Patriarch Shenouda (who isn’t Greek or Western but Copt) translates it? and why? and wherefrom?

riazat butt
riazat butt
12 years ago

@JPM – there is no sign of CANA/Anglican Mainstream. There are two people from Changing Attitudes and that is about it. With the exception of a few primates most here have come without an entourage

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
12 years ago

“we wonder how Patriarch Shenouda (who isn’t Greek or Western but Copt) translates it? and why? and wherefrom?”

Indeed. And, Goran, you’re likely to know if anyone is: I read somewhere that one of the few instances of ‘malakos’ outside of Scripture is a case where the word is used to describe a man who is getting his face made up, putting on his finest silks and his best soft slippers and going out to seduce women. Can you vouch for that? If that’s true, it obviously CAN’T mean ‘homosexual’, probably more “hedonistic” or “debauched” or something.

John B. Chilton
John B. Chilton
12 years ago

JCF wrote, “the CofE will be part of the clique—when we know that, by law, it can’t be.”

The primates media spokesperson, Archbishop Aspinall, brought up the example of the constitutional inability of the CofE to submit to a covenant with teeth in his news conference. Simon points to the 50 audio above in his post. It’s in the last third (unfortunately the ACNS audio does not have time demarcations) of the news conference.

Robert Ian Williams
Robert Ian Williams
12 years ago

Where are the ACNA people?

Why has there been no discussion of the Sydney crisis?

john
john
12 years ago

‘Malakos’ in ancient Classical Greek can certainly imply effeminacy/homosexuality. It’s a natural implication of male ~ ‘hard’, female ~ ‘soft’. Paradoxically, however, great cocksmen (excuse the expression) like Mark Antony can be associated with ‘softness’, because (a) constant association with women means that their ‘softness’ rubs off on you; (b) the natural consequence of sexual congress is ‘softness’.

I write as a professional Classicist.

None of which matters a jot in the debate about the moral justification of homosexual behaviour.

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

Ford Elms asked: “I read somewhere that one of the few instances of ‘malakós’ outside of Scripture is a case where the word is used to describe a man who is getting his face made up, putting on his finest silks and his best soft slippers and going out to seduce women. Can you vouch for that? If that’s true, it obviously CAN’T mean ‘homosexual’, probably more “hedonistic” or “debauched” or something.” So it is said, indeed. The word itself refers to textiles; soft, but may also mean “soft” in a secondary sense, as in “morally/Philosophically” soft, hedonistic, debauched, sacrificing… Read more »

Ford Elms
Ford Elms
12 years ago

“Why has there been no discussion of the Sydney crisis?” Imagine what would happen if someone high up in the Church actually pointed out to these holier than thou self proclaimed “orthodox” that are manifestly NOT orthodox, everyone can see it, and they are merely making themselves look even more pompous than they already appear every time the use the term. They would be too self righteous to be ashamed of themselves, because ‘any fule knowe’ that the only REAL orthodoxy is to be found in one’s terror of “the revisionists”. Because that’s what it’s really all about, you know,… Read more »

john
john
12 years ago

I found Colin Coward’s bloggings moving and encouraging.

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
12 years ago

“Where are the ACNA people? Why has there been no discussion of the Sydney crisis? – R.I.Williams – I suppose, Robert, that your lack of knowledge of who has been invited to the Primates’ Conference is due to your membership of the R.C. Church. You haven’t been invited to send a prepresentative, nor has the ACNA fraternity – simply because this is: what it says: The Anglican Primates’ Meeting. As there are no Primates of the Anglican Communion in ACNA – even though Bobby Duncan might aspire to such a title – there is no presence of that entity in… Read more »

Göran Koch-Swahne
12 years ago

John wrote: “None of which matters a jot in the debate about the moral justification of homosexual behaviour.”

O, yes it does!

If only because the European academics behind the KJV, and others following them, thought “effeminacy” amd sexual acts between males, were the same……

riazat butt
riazat butt
12 years ago

@Father Ron – that’s the nicest thing I’ve read on thread for a while. Thank you

Simon Sarmiento
12 years ago

Ron, Robert, and any others:
No further ad hominem remarks about each other on this thread, please. Write about the primates instead!

Malcolm+
12 years ago

So, we can write ad hominem remarks about the Primates then?

I suppose such remarks might properly be called “ad hominoid.”

30
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x