Thinking Anglicans

are war claims justified?

Updated again Monday morning

News coverage of this statement by 13 groups has been interesting.

First was Ruth Gledhill with New push for same-sex marriage, gay ordination in Church of England on her blog and Liberal Anglicans declare war on conservatives in the Church in The TImes .

Then there was Liberals question Archbishop on gay response from Toby Cohen at Religious Intelligence.

This was followed by ‘Not in our name’ pro-gay groups by Pat Ashworth at the Church Times.

Now Jonathan Wynne-Jones on his blog at the Telegraph has written Americans planning to start a civil war in the Church of England.
The Episcopal Café points out in One plus one equals six hundred sixty six, that only one American is identified.
His recent blog posting here is essentially a republication of an earlier article from last November.

Sunday update
Geoffrey Hoare has this further blog entry: The Blogosphere.

Monday update
And Mark Harris has noted what Bishop Anderson of the American Anglican Council said, first here, and then over here. And he also draws attention to the poll Should TEC set up in the UK? at Religious Intelligence.

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choirboyfromhell
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choirboyfromhell

As much as I share the rage about ++Rowry’s latest missive, I hope that there are not any more border crossings and “church plantings”, at least on TEC’s behalf. We have an obligation to act better and not lower ourselves to other’s levels. I’m sorry, nothing good can come out of a TEC satellite church in Greater London.

All in all, I think it’s time for ++Rowry to consider pulling the pin and retiring, once and for all.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

I agree with ‘Choirboyfromhell’ on Saturday, who says that to imitate the strategies of the Global South Primates, who provoked the present schismatic movement by their piratical intervention of TEC and the A.of C. through their ordination of ‘episcopi vaganti’ to recruit people to their conservative cause; would be counter-productive to the evolution of justice issues within the Communion.

For TEC ‘Missionaries’ to try the same anarchic and revolutionary tactics to undermine the local Church in England (or elsewhere) would be counter to TEC’s policy of local government for the local Churches; which is really the point at issue here

JCF
Guest
JCF

It’s a lesson I’ve learned from (US) American politics: conservatives have been slashing income tax rates for DECADES, but if moderate-to-liberals talk about raising those rates for once, *they* will be accused of “Class War!”

To extrapolate: if Side A has been conducting a MASSACRE of Side B (for forever), if Side B EVER fights back, then Side B will be charged with starting a “war”.

The “Yellow Journalism” cited here, is just more of the same…

Göran Koch-Swahne
Guest

But surely, the condition IF makes this entirely different. IF the Church of England goes Covenanted AND TEC is ousted, then it would be perfectly OK to establish a branch in London, as everywhere else.

MikeM
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MikeM

I ostensibly agree with the point about not furthering schism through plantings by TEC, if these became more than the gleam in a blogger’s eye, but all the same, if this centralising view becomes enshrined in a legalistic way within the AC, and this confirms and strengthens the position of those worldwide who are bigots, and whose views appear to foster violence against LGBT people, I for one would seriously be looking at whether I could faithfully formally feel allied to a body that actively incorporated those whose fundamental position is to deny and actively demean the role and nature… Read more »

Sara MacVane
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Sara MacVane

I guess I am not the only wondering why Affirming Catholicism hasn’t signed on yet.

Giles Fraser
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Giles Fraser

Choirboyfromhell, Fr Ron – Nobody wants a liberal equivalent to the conservative American schismatics FCA. Two wrongs don’t make a right. But there is a very interesting question about members of TEC living in England. If such people lived in Paris or Rome they would be welcomed into TEC churches that exist under TEC’s Convocation of American Churches in Europe. See http://www.tec-europe.org/parishes/index.html. There is not an equivalent TEC church in London or Manchester because it has always been presumed that there are enough Church of England parishes to attend. But of TEC members are going to be deemed ecclesiastically unwelcome… Read more »

choirboyfromhell
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choirboyfromhell

Giles, I think it’s a little premature to worry about TEC ex-pats, as we all know, most Episcopalians are welcomed in Great Britain churches (at least I hope so, am planning on ‘ringing’ for a couple of choirs on their tours of English Cathedrals next year anyhow) for the time being, and I think most of the English populace considers all this somewhat silly (the goings on of the ‘conservative’ obsession with LGBT people that is). I know of the church in Paris, as well as the Anglican one (curiously two ‘Anglican’ churches of two provinces in one town), and… Read more »

JeremyB
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JeremyB

I for one am glad that one blogger — and apparently an Englishman who is a priest in The Episcopal Church — has raised the possibility of planting TEC churches in England. Perhaps the Church of England will now understand how Episcopalians feel on this issue. Where has the Church of England been for the past few years on the issue of cross-border interventions? What has Canterbury done to enforce the Windsor request for a moratorium on such interventions? If the Church of England hasn’t lifted a finger to stop Windsor-violating cross-border interventions in North America, then on what principled… Read more »

counterlight
Guest

I doubt there will be any serious effort to establish a formal Episcopal Church presence in England unless there is a change in TEC’s status in the Anglican Communion. I tend to agree with Fr. Jonathan Hagger, the Mad Priest of Newcastle. What the Church of England hierarchy needs to worry about are not formal ties being established, but informal ones. I doubt there will be many, if any, C of E priests becoming Episcopalian, but there are lots of them cultivating close ties with the North Americans and with the Scottish Episcopalians. I also agree that if anyone is… Read more »

Gerry Lynch
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Gerry Lynch

Sara McVane – no, you aren’t the only other person wondering why AffCath haven’t signed.

I hope it’s not out of a misplaced sense of loyalty to Rowan.

peterpi
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peterpi

I agree with JCF on Saturday, 8 August 2009 at 3:58am BST.
In American politics, it happens all the time, and I am sick unto death if it. What’s OK for conservatives becomes heresy/schism/treason/communism if done by liberals.
I also believe this “war” talk is by one bloviating conservative writer who is shocked, shocked! that everyone doesn’t agree with him.
On the other hand, if ++Rowan’s attitude is to save the Communion by throwing TEC to the conservative lions, why shouldn’t TEC then feel free to form alliances with like-minded people or groups in other countries?

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“I also agree that if anyone is going to create schism in the C of E, it will be the right wing folks with African and American help. It will not be TEC.” – Counterlight – This, of course, has already happened – (1) when the dissenters refused to take Communion with other Bishops in a Council of the Church, and -(2) when certain prelates of the Communion predated on the territory of other Provinces to form their own provincial structures to vie with those already in place in those provinces. These prelates have already moved away from the ethos… Read more »

Neil
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Neil

Go over to Fulcrum blog and you’ll see why Aff Cath have not signed up. Jonathan Clark is in bed with the Bishop of Sherborne over the Covenant. What they dreamed up was very much ‘made in Islington and Stoke Newington’…strongholds in the past of the Free Churches ironically enough! Talk about the ‘Norf London’ chattering classes…

Geoffrey Hoare
Guest

I have just posted this response to Jonathan Wynne Jones a the Telegraph: Jonathan, Thank you for taking an interest in our parish conversation at All Saints’, Atlanta. You are quite right that no one I know has any interest in starting a civil war in the C of E. There is no real interest here in planting TEC parishes in England, but I believe that would change if the Covenant movement keeps on looking for ways in which individuals and parishes (presumably within TEC but what of others?) would be encouraged to ‘sign on’ in the event that TEC… Read more »

Spirit of Vatican II
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Spirit of Vatican II

There is an awful lot of childishness in the air here.

BillyD
Guest

On the one hand, while I see the wisdom in Canon Fraser’s idea, I would be against the planting of “missionary” churches in other Anglican Provinces, whether we stay in the AC or not. Setting up a place that would act as a sort of “safety valve” to siphon off “liberals” only prolongs the struggle, I think. On the other hand, it’s amazing the that an American priest who was consecrated as a Nigerian bishop in order to do harm to the Episcopal Church should find the prospect of the tables being turned so outrageous. If we *did* start planting… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“If we *did* start planting churches in other Provinces to undermine their positions, from whom does Bishop Anderson think we would have learned the tactic?”

Obviously from the Devil. I am reminded of the definition of “joss sticks” in Ambrose Bierce’s The Devil’s Dictionary:

‘Small sticks burned by the Chinese in their pagan tomfoolery, in imitation of certain sacred rites of our holy religion.’