Thinking Anglicans

more on the Roman announcement

Updated again Wednesday evening

In the Guardian Riazat Butt and John Hooper have Pope opens gates to Anglicans disaffected over women clergy.

In The Times Ruth Gledhill has Pope’s gambit could see 1,000 quit Church of England. And also Desperate bishops invited Rome to park its tanks on Archbishop’s lawn.

Tim Bradshaw writes Pope’s move will harm dialogue and weaken Church of England.

Edwin Barnes writes that The Catholic Church offers us a warm welcome.

And yesterday there was also Vatican plan to allow Anglican groups to convert dates back a decade.

In the Telegraph there is a leader comment, Half way to Rome.

Updates

The Times also has Q&A: what happens to the Catholic Church and Church of England after Rome decision? by Ruth Gledhill.

And Ruth has a further blog entry, headed Will Michael Nazir-Ali go to Rome? which includes his statement in response to the Vatican.

Washington Post Vatican fishing for disgruntled Anglicans

New York Times Vatican Bidding to Get Anglicans to Join Its Fold and see also Why the Vatican Wants Anglicans

Reuters Disaffected Anglican dioceses may switch to Rome

The Times Ruth Gledhill Hundreds of Anglican clergy to meet after Vatican offer.

And in tomorrow’s paper, 400,000 former Anglicans worldwide seek immediate unity with Rome.

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Ford ElmsDanielDouglas ThompsonJohannes de Silentiodrdanfee Recent comment authors
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toby forward
Guest

Ah, there’s the real point, in Edwin Barnes’ article. They want churches and parsonages. What will happen to the parish structure of the Church of England if a woman finds herself living in a geographical area where she can’t go to her parish chruch, seek discernment of her vocation, and be accepted at the altar? That, above all, cannot and must not be accepted. Anyone who wants to submit to the See of Rome is free to do so, but English people must be allowed the use of their parishes churches, without gender tests being imposed by some defecting parson.

MJ
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MJ

+Burnham and +Newton write: “We have chosen 22nd February, The Feast of The Chair of Peter, to be an appropriate day for priests and people to make an initial decision as to whether they wish to respond positively to and explore further the initiative of the Apostolic Constitution.” Of course, we know why that date was chosen, right? General Synod meets 8-12 Feb. They’ll threaten to take the Roman option in the run-up to Synod to try and get what they want from it. And if they don’t get what they want from the CoE, then they’ll take that Roman… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

In England, negotiations with the Vatican have been led by two of the “flying bishops” – the Anglo-Catholics sanctioned to porovide pastoral care for opponents of the ordination of women as priests. The Bishop of Ebbsfleet, the Rt. Revd. Andrew Burnham, and the Bishop of Richborough, the Rt. Revd. Keith Newton, visited Rome at Easter last year for talks with Cardinal Levada. – Ruth Gledhill – I don’t always go along with Ruth’s rhetorical slant on Anglican affairs, but I reckon she may just have put her finger on something important here. It would seem that, although the one-time R.C.… Read more »

Wilf
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Wilf

Edwin Barnes will have to be much more convincing if he thinks churches, parsonages and (presumably) whole geographical areas of England are going to be given to the Roman Catholic Church. This would be legally and constitutionally impossible.

The whole point of these Personal Ordinarates is that they will require those who wish to be part of them to LEAVE the Church of England and JOIN the Roman Catholic Church. That means leaving behind churches, parishes, vicarages, stipends, pensions (except that earned to date) and synods.

john
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john

I thought Ruth Gledhill’s piece was very perceptive on just how dangerous this thing could be. We must keep our nerve: (1) We have a far better church in all respects – finer buildings (which we did not ‘steal’), finer music, more compassion, better attitudes to women and gays, a more intelligent approach to the problems of religion vs science, far superior theologians, practical intercommunion (widely reciprocated at street level, especially in Europe). (2) For several of the reasons above, ‘History is on our side’. Don’t laugh, it is. (3) Many UK RCs at all levels will disapporve of this… Read more »

john
Guest
john

I thought Ruth Gledhill’s piece was very perceptive on just how dangerous this thing could be. We must keep our nerve: (1) We have a far better church in all respects – finer buildings (which we did not ‘steal’), finer music, more compassion, better attitudes to women and gays, a more intelligent approach to the problems of religion vs science, far superior theologians, practical intercommunion (widely reciprocated at street level, especially in Europe). (2) For several of the reasons above, ‘History is on our side’. Don’t laugh, it is. (3) Many UK RCs at all levels will disapporve of this… Read more »

Grumpy HIgh Church Woman
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Grumpy HIgh Church Woman

Does retaining ‘some Anglican practices’ include birth control? Just curious.

Fr Mark
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I just wish the person who Rorate Caeli calls “successor to the usurpers of the extingushed see of Canterbury” http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/ would put some effort into sticking up for decency towards women and gay people rather than melting into the shadows in the face of the harsh ecclesiology and sexuality/gender ethic of the Roman Catholic Church. He does believe that totalitarian and excluding methods of running a church are not wise or especially godly, doesn’t he, or does he, in fact?

Martin Reynolds
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Martin Reynolds

Too little detail.

Is this a new church (like a Uniate branch) where Anglican RC priests/bishops can only serve their own and will not be able to celebrate according to other rites? Good to keep the married priests apart from the general Catholic population.

Or is this like Opus Dei – a Personal Prelature opperating within the existing RC churches?

Cynthia Gilliatt
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Cynthia Gilliatt

Yes, Rowan has decried the lawsuits in America because he hasn’t bothered to inform himself about the polity of TEC OR American contitutional and civil law. TEC is not acting out of ‘meanness,’ but rather, trying to retain property that is held in trust for it. So far, the overwhelming majority of such suits have been settled in favor of TEC. But Rowan is too lofty to bother with tiresome things like facts. It’s like the Windsor report going on and on about American bishops being ‘appointed.’ Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain! How will he… Read more »

JPM
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JPM

Is Rowan giving to let these people take their church buildings and bank accounts with them, as he has so often pushed TEC to do with its own separatists?

Spirit of Vatican II
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Spirit of Vatican II

If “Rorate Caeli” enthuses about something, that’s a sure sign it’s a dead duck.

Spirit of Vatican II
Guest
Spirit of Vatican II

Abp Rowan has signalled clearly that the Vatican has committed an act of supreme ecumenical tactlessness. The hallmark of it is that it is the work of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith rather than of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Presumably Cardinal Walter Kasper was not notified of it any earlier than Rowan was. The CDF are famous for bad manners. I expect to hear Card. Kasper make his indignation clear as on similar previous occasions.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“An Anglo-Catholic tradition will continue to be a part of the Church of England, nurtured by those who cherish this tradition while not ready to accept the current jurisdiction of the Holy See.” – ‘Rorate Coeli’ statement – This is perhaps the most credible paragraph of the statement by ‘Rorate Coeli’ facilitated by Fr.Mark on this thread. The fact that ‘Rorate’ hosted comment by Archbishop John Hepworth, a former Roman Catholic, now divorced and re-married, Primate of the recently-formed *Traditional Anglican Communion*, should warn his R.C. associates of the sort of catholicity they are inviting into their new ‘ordinariates’. One… Read more »

Quis
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Quis

Father Ron Smith said “However, every cloud has a silver lining, and that for the C.of E. at the moment may be the way being made clear for women bishops in the Church.”

Hear hear! Hopefully this matter is quickly concluded. The sooner the disgruntled are settled in to Rome, the better the C of E can focus on straightening out the mess created by the Flying Bishops and the ABC’s waffling.

The more likely scenario will be for a stampede coming from the opposite direction anyhow.

drdanfee
Guest
drdanfee

Those conservative Anglicans pondering an exit for special spaces newly created just for them in the allegedly big tent that Rome now preaches itself to be – will temporarily find consonance in the global Church of No. Come down hard on two negatives – No, to women; No to queer folks. Then settle in comfortably? I see an elephant around here somewhere, The Roman Catholic Really Big No To Modern Sciences and best practices critical scholarship. Did the silencings of John McNeil or Teilhard de Chardin really render them void and voiceless? The oddest thing about this invitation is that… Read more »

Johannes de Silentio
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Johannes de Silentio

I do not understand why Rome has used so many fireworks with their propaganda, only for a bunch of anglicans who already broke away from the Anglican Communion.
This so-called “Traditional Anglican Communion” only has a dozen of bishops and priests in England without church buildings (they oftenly celebrated masses in houses or rented temples and even in stores)…and…without people ! What is this all about ?

Douglas Thompson
Guest
Douglas Thompson

A few years ago, a Roman Catholic priest colleague of mine said,” We send you our brightest and our best, both clergy and laity. You send us your dregs, your dissidents, your unhappiest people who will not be happy wherever they go.”

Daniel
Guest
Daniel

I predict a big flop in the U.S. – the Anglican traditionalists here (1) picked up their marbles and left when things didn’t go their way and (2) have been enjoying a great amount of autonomy in their separatist structures since then. Neither one of these tendencies will fit in very well in the RC Church. And I think many of them also fear that what is standard practice in Rome these days won’t always be the case. Imagine if you had converted to Rome in the 1950’s because you thought Protestantism had embraced modernist tendencies and contemporary liturgical practices… Read more »

Ford Elms
Guest
Ford Elms

“Imagine if you had converted to Rome in the 1950’s because you thought Protestantism had embraced modernist tendencies and contemporary liturgical practices too much?”

Or imagine if you had separated from the Anglican Church over liturgical reform. How would you now have the unmitigated gall to join Rome, where you do not have the freedom to refuse to use what is essentially the same liturgy that you once thought was so utterly wrong you caused a very public scene as you flounced out of the Anglican Church in a huff? I mean seriously.