Thinking Anglicans

more reactions to Rome

From Uganda, we have ‘Pope’s offer not vital for Africa’ – Orombi.

Religious Intelligence has two reports, Vatican opens the doors to Anglican traditionalists and also Rome converts urged to decide by February 22.

From the first of these:

The Bishop of Guildford, the Rt Rev Christopher Hill, also appeared at the announcement. He said: “I don’t actually anticipate vast numbers of my clergy wishing to take up this option.

“As an Anglican I welcome any pastoral outreach to those who find they can no longer remain within the Churches of the Anglican Communion. I’d much rather they came into Communion with the Roman Catholic Church than set up their own.”

And from the second:

Bishop Geoffrey Rowell, Bishop in Europe, said that the combined statement issued by the Archbishop of Westminster, Vincent Nichols, and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, was a historic statement which was highly significant.

“I think this should be seen as a much wider journey into unity,” he said. “We are so much further down the road into unity than people even 40 years ago would have believed. However, at the same time, there are new issues which have come up which were not there in the earlier days.”

He added: “Of course there are doctrinal differences which remain and again I would want to see the apostolic constitution.”

Also, Bishop David Hamid, Suffragan in Europe wrote on his blog, Apostolic Constitution: Ecumenical Reflections.

…as the former Anglican co-secretary of our international bilateral dialogue, ARCIC (the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission) as well as a consultant to the more recent IARCCUM Commission (International Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission on Mission and Unity) I offer below some initial reflections on the ecumenical implications of the announcement on 20 October from the Vatican.

Lord Carey writes for the Washington Post’s On Belief website, Cause for sadness and celebration.

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MJ
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MJ

“Orombi said the African Anglican Church split after realising that the Western churches had yielded to liberal measures on sexuality, which are contrary to the biblical teachings. In a historic move, African Anglican churches held a conference in Jerusalem last year during which they officially broke away from Canterbury.”

Did they forget to tell ++Rowan!

Fr Mark
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Fr Mark

How do others here interpret My Lord of Gibraltar’s comment?

As the only (?) unmarried diocesan bishop amongst those viscerally opposed to ordained women and unrepressed gays, he must surely be the prime candidate to become the Ordinary of this new jurisdiction, mustn’t he?

badman
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badman

Point 5 of Bishop Hamid’s blog comments needs a little more explanation, and I have posted a comment on his blog about that. On the face of it, an offer to members in good standing of another Church that they may join the Roman Catholic Church on special terms is either (a) a move towards unity, at least with part of the other Church or (b) a threat to the unity of the other Church, by offering more tempting terms than heretofore for those who might split from that Church. Either way, I cannot see that it is right not… Read more »

Spirit of Vatican II
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Spirit of Vatican II

Dr Williams said: “There are people within the Church of England who are uneasy with some aspects of where the Church of England is but would on no account want to become Roman Catholics whether they call themselves evangelicals or Anglo-Catholics but who have serious conscientious difficulties about becoming Roman Catholics. This will not resolve their challenges and we as the Church of England will continue to have to engage with that, and the last thing I would want is for this to be seen as some kind of shortcut.” He knows very well that the Anglo-Catholics have no desire… Read more »

Thomas Renz
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Thomas Renz

It is understandable that those who have invested a lot in Anglican-Roman ecumenical relationships put up a brave face but it is difficult to read these events as telling us how wonderful the ARCIC progress has been. If so, Canterbury would have been given more notice, maybe even been consulted. While the special provision for those “originally belonging to the Anglican Communion” is a sign of Roman appreciation for the Anglican heritage, there won’t be an Anglican church in communion with Rome. As Christopher Hill reminds us, “All will have to conform in doctrine to the teaching of the Roman… Read more »

David C
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David C

Here is a good analysis by John Allen on the National Catholic Reporter site
http://ncronline.org/news/what-vaticans-welcome-anglicans-means#

john
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john

The last two paragraphs of Carey’s piece are perfectly decent – and indeed I could have written them myself. But why aren’t more Anglican big-wigs saying them publicly? Why this paralysis, this almost catastrophic loss of nerve in the face of a clearly hostile operation by a malignant and myopic Pope?

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“However, a major item that remains unclear is what exactly constitutes the “distinctive Anglican spiritual and liturgical patrimony” and how much of it these newly “reunited” communities will be allowed to maintain. Will it go beyond hymnody, the King James Bible and distinctive dress?” – Robert Mitchens & Elena Curti, srticle in The Tablet – This will, indeed, be an important consideration for those in F.i.F tempted to move ‘holus bolus’ into the new ‘Ordinariates’. There will no doubt be some difference of opinion on which of the *distinctive dress* items will be allowed to be retained. Also, which of… Read more »

karern macqueen+
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karern macqueen+

acording to George Carey:

“Many evangelicals are now hiving off to the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans and refusing to have anything to do with the rest of the church. If Anglo-Catholics are wooed by Rome we could see the Church of England becoming a mainly liberal church…a kind of green party at prayer.”

Where do I sign up? Oh..excuse me. I got carried away by the idea of “the Green Party at prayer.” I think I already work here.

Neil
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Neil

I found David Cs link very helpful. There is a lot of aggression in the anti RC tone of many contributors to these boards – understandable as that might be from minorities within wider Catholic Christendom.
Re the theological implications of the Pope’s decision – what level of teaching authority will the constitution have? Will it have any bearing on the discussion of infallibility?
Re the politics – surely the most provocative action came from the General Synod of the CofE last year when in the face of pleadings from Kasper the RC position was ignored.

Robert Ian williams
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Robert Ian williams

All these persons like Doctor Carey know there will not be a mass exodus. As for being appalled at the way the Pope has treated Doctor Rowan Williams……I can’t belive a person who has been undermining of Rowan, ever since he got him stopped from being Bishop of Soouthwark can have the gall to say that.

Mark Bennet
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Mark Bennet

Neil, the General Synod no doubt took into account not only the ‘official’ position of the Roman Catholic Church, but also what we know of the Roman Catholic clergy and people we encounter and work with throughout the country – and also the views of other Churches like the Methodist Church with which the Church of England has a covenant.

Jim Pratt
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Jim Pratt

MJ,
I think they did tell +Rowan (by snubbing him at Lambeth). The ones Orombi forgot to tell were John Guernsey, Bob Duncan, Martyn Minns & Co., who keep harping that they are part of the “real” Anglican church.

Fr Mark
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Neil: “surely the most provocative action came from the General Synod of the CofE last year when in the face of pleadings from Kasper the RC position was ignored”

… though the RC position is that all Anglican orders, whether bestowed upon male or female, are utterly null and totally void.

Hasn’t it always been rather naive for any Anglicans to assume that Roman position would ever change?

David C
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David C

Thanks Neil. I am someone who straddles the line between the RCC and TEC. I love Catholic Christianity and so much about the RCC, but am fed up with the attitudes towards women and the GLBT community, so am very attracted to the openness that I see in TEC. Yet when things like this story come out, all the sometimes nasty anti RC attitudes come out into the open, it makes me tremble at the thought of swimming the Thames, so to speak. I realize that many people have had bad experiences with church, of whatever flavor, but hanging these… Read more »

JCF
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JCF

“what level of teaching authority will the constitution have? Will it have any bearing on the discussion of infallibility?”

Say Wot?

Discussion of Infallibility? *Within* the “Barque of Peter”?!

Does not compute.

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“Re the politics – surely the most provocative action came from the General Synod of the CofE last year when in the face of pleadings from Kasper the RC position was ignored. – Neil – What makes you think that the members of General Synod need to take the advice of a prelate of the Roman Catholic Church, Neil? The Magisterium does not work for Anglicans. I suspect Cardinal Kaspar was really invited more as an ‘Observer’ rather than a papal Advisor. It might have been better if he had extended the sort of courtesy to his listeners as have… Read more »

anthony
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anthony

If the RCC believes Anglican orders are null and void, why does it care if they ordain women?

Father Ron Smith
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Father Ron Smith

“If the RCC believes Anglican orders are null and void, why does it care if they ordain women?” – Anthony, on Tuesday – Anthony, you’ve struck the conundrum that has been exercising at least those of us who have come to an understanding about gender and priesthood over the last 25 years or so. If the Pope accepts that, though basically Christian, Anglicans do not possess the charism of Holy Orders, why on earth would he worry when we discover that we have missed out on a treasure strove of ministry in our Churches which has no valid orders anyway,… Read more »

Ford Elms
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Ford Elms

“If the RCC believes Anglican orders are null and void, why does it care if they ordain women?”

Because we already have the unmitigated gall to call our clergy “priests” and “bishops” just like the Real Thing, and we actually think, silly us, that they celebrate real honest to God sacraments! If we go ahead, then the world might get the idea that women actually CAN be priests and bishops, and that might distract the faithful from their threefold responsibilities.