Thinking Anglicans

criticism of the ACO continues

Criticism of what the Anglican Communion Office is doing comes from more than one direction.

On the one hand, Paul Bagshaw of the MCU has this detailed critique of Part 4 of the Anglican Covenant, Questions on the critical clause.

This is a follow-up to his earlier articles linked here.

On the other hand, the Anglican Communion Institute has this detailed criticism of the Anglican Communion Steering Committee. See ACC Standing Committee: Five Things That Should Be Done Now.

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MaryO
MaryO
11 years ago

I am completely befuddled as to what any of this has to do with “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Why would ANYONE possibly think that Anglicanism has Jesus as its center when all the energy seems to be poured into meetings and bureacracy?

JCF
JCF
11 years ago

4-guys-and-a-website’s bottomline:

“TEC must be disqualified from serving on any bodies concerned with faith and order, including the Primates’ Meeting and the Standing Committee so long as it insists on departing from the faith and order of the Communion and repudiating the agreed moratoria.”

It’s the whole “TEC as lepers” approach: “Unclean! Unclean! Banish them!”

Pathetic.

Nom de Plume
Nom de Plume
11 years ago

Paul Bagshaw is insightful as usual. This bit needs to be lifted from a brilliant whole: “A much more serious weakness is that the whole mechanism appears to presume a model of one-way offence. One Church takes a decision that one or more others don’t like. One Church is the offender and bears the moral obloquy; the innocent are hurt…. “In sum, the Covenant arrangements will magnify smaller disputes which participants could probably sort out for themselves, and be wholly inadequate to a complex, multi-directional conflict which divides the Communion. Power politics will not confine itself to rules that don’t… Read more »

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
11 years ago

Nom de Plume has it right…and, further, the whole thing presumes that any province that takes steps beyond what the majority of the others will accept is, by the very nature of acting without that majority, violating faith and order. It totally locks the Communion into the doctrine and dogma of its most conservative provinces as they exist today, with no possibility that the Spirit might speak to other provinces differently…based on the circumstances there and then. It turns the events of Pentecost–when each man heard the apostles speaking in his own language–on their heads…so that, instead, all must hear… Read more »

drdanfee
drdanfee
11 years ago

One really hopes Bagshaw’s discussion will get some further good analysis and discussion going. It seems long over due in England, and a number of other provinces, maybe. Those ACI guyz R a real Hooot. They play strict constructionist, fanciful conservativist, and activist judge bench – whenever, however, they presume it best serves their agenda. Tip o tha Hat, Top o tha day to the Spin Doctors. I note with some chagrin and amusement that they are still busy, repeating the false-fake gloss which simplistically collapses dominant patterns of ancient near eastern (usually) male-male sexuality (rape, temple prostitution, cultic sex… Read more »

chenier1
chenier1
11 years ago

OK; the fact that I previously hadn’t come across 4 chaps with a website and a printer is obviously to be numbered amongst my life’s blessings to date, but it does suggest that they haven’t really mastered this whole viral marketing thing. The fact that nowhere on their site is any coherent statement of who they are and what their purpose is a matter of concern; quite why a company incorporated outside this country is listing English clergymen is also a bit of a poser. On the other hand, I had the pleasure of discovering Anthony Crockett’s lucid demolition of… Read more »

Tobias Haller
11 years ago

Nom de Plume, spot on, or rather many spots on. Your last paragraph reminds me of the comedian’s riff on men and women — that the wife will not tell her husband what he has done wrong, as he is supposed to know the cause of offense through his sensitivity — which, being lacking, leads to an inability to know quite what to do. “If you have to ask you don’t deserve to know!” Either that or the posh restaurant that doesn’t print prices on its menu, because “if you have to ask the cost you can’t afford it.” None… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
11 years ago

The prolific commentary on the proposed “Covenant” is interesting, both from the point of view of content, and the energy being invested by folks who are not in favor. Here in Canada, our General Synod has requested we “study” the Covenant–the word study being a euphemism for stall for time etc. The Covenant does not require study, in the sense that its not rocket science. What might helpful is some sort of organized opposition against the covenant, something more than t-shirts that say “no Anglican Covenant”. What about some sort of Communion wide e-alliance based on the notion that our… Read more »

John B. Chilton
John B. Chilton
11 years ago

Episcopal Cafe is also wondering what’s with the ACO and the Standing Committee:

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/anglican_communion/the_global_standing_committee.html

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
11 years ago

Thank you very much chenier1 for pointing us to Dr Crockett’s demolition of Dr Goddard which I had missed. I was particularly interested by the paragraph towards the end where he expressed his suprise at the easy way evangelicals find no problem with artificial contraception. Recently I had a little contre temps with a zealous young evangelical curate who runs a website , Peter Ould, who appeared to believe that the opposition of the Anglican Church to artificial contraception before 1930 was motivated by subservience to Roman Catholic moral teaching and not the Bible( !!)I hope he wasnt taught this… Read more »

Martin Reynolds
Martin Reynolds
11 years ago

I think the ACI have become a parody of themselves, their lecturing nay caterwauling has reached fever pitch. These lads have done all they can to undermine the various individuals and bodies trying to steer through this mess, they, along with the self important Fulcrum leadership, have done more to undermine the elastic strategy of Rowan Williams than anyone else. They have fed the more fisipparous elements within the fellowship – given comfort to schismatics and encouraged disharmony. They are a fine example of self righteousness. They are the only ones who see the whole picture, they are the only… Read more »

Rob+
Rob+
11 years ago

The comments here about the ACI are classic. You don’t dare to engage their arguments. Why? Because you can’t. So you simply attack them:”a parody of themselves,” “caterwauling,” “fine examples of self-righteousness” etc. They make rational arguments about constitutional rules and order and you return the offenses you accuse them of doing.

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
11 years ago

My question to Rob+, on Thursday, might well be: Exactly who is/are ACI. I know the letters stand for Anglican Communion Institute, but what precisely is their membership? And whom do they presume to speak for? Certainly not the broad perspective of TEC, as one can easily see when clicking on to their web-site. The biggest surprise is that they also have a few high-ranking C.of E. clerics on their books. What are they doing there? Do they represent any broad spectrum of the Church of England? What is the ACI’s provenance – apart from being an agency of provocation… Read more »

cseitz
cseitz
11 years ago

All the people ‘on our books’ are people who have worked closely with us and with the Windsor Bishops and now with Communion Partners; we have all been working together, some of us for over ten years now (NT Wright, Michael Scott-Joynt, Drexel Gomez, Anthony Burton, and the US bishops listed). Dr Radner has been referred to by the ABofC as one of the preeminent theological minds of our day, and he has written several books on the Communion. His PhD from Yale was on ecclesiology. I was on the Faculty of RS there and the distinguished RC Philosopher Louis… Read more »

Rob+
Rob+
11 years ago

Ron, I don’t speak for the ACI. But with the same information which you have and choose to ignore, I can state the following. At a minimum they are fellow members of the the councils of this conciliar church. They are also theologians and scholars in the Anglican Communion. Clearly, they have organized themselves to give voice for those that have been so marginalized by the majority leadership of TEC which claims to be so “inclusive” and “respect ALL people…” of the church and which clearly is and does neither. Go ahead and ignore them if you want but don’t… Read more »

cseitz
cseitz
11 years ago

As for provenance, see the Rectors and Bishops listed at http://communionpartners.org/

ACI includes scholars and churchmen/women whose service within TEC reaches back several generations, and predates the tenure of the PB in TEC by a considerable degree. The PB of TEC is not a metropolitan. TEC is a church of dioceses, which associate with one another via a general convention, which issues resolutions and operates with a constitution and canons. ACI, CP (and dioceses like SC) find themselves in the position of defense of the constitution and canons against overreach and alteration.

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
11 years ago

The ACI reminds me much of the so-called “Catholic League”, which seems to consist of its leader, William Donaghue, and little else…but which still seems to get a great deal of press coverage every time it objects to a perceived slight of or attack upon the Catholic Church in the USA.

Both “groups” seem to very good at attracting publicity, but not at every much else.

MarkBrunson
MarkBrunson
11 years ago

Well, you’d need “factual and well-reasoned” arguments to counter; all ACI has is personal belief, bolstered by mere sophistry, appeals to the emotional content of ancient superstition, masquerading as “faith,” and simple, bold-faced arrogance. They’ve no grounds, their arguments are ridiculous, the appropriate response is ridicule. If it weren’t Mr. Rob wouldn’t be getting so hysterical and Mr. Seitz wouldn’t feel called out to actually try to pad ACI’s credentials with appeals to “We was here first!” There are those who make reasoned arguments and are deserving of respect and engagement. ACI is not in that group. Indeed, I’m not… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Father Ron Smith
11 years ago

“Have those of you who have had so much to say on a number of threads ever contemplated the notion that you might just be wrong? I doubt it.”
– cseitz, on Thursday –

Then, Christopher, can you explain the meaning of the title ‘Presiding Bishop’? what exactly is her/his relationship to the dioceses of TEC? Does it not compare with, at least, the role of ‘primus-inter -pares’ with the Bishops in TEC?

cseitz
cseitz
11 years ago

Let’s take a practical example. When a Priest seeks to have a PTO status (permission to officiate) in the C of E, the Archbishop must give his OK. Then it goes down to the Diocesan, etc. Who vouches for Letters of Orders, if the applicant is from TEC? The Diocesan. And if a Priest from somewhere outside TEC seeks to be ‘licensed to officiate’ in the US, who must give the approval? The Diocesan. The PB has no role. In the history of PECUSA, the PB was a Diocesan. The PB was the senior ranking Bishop (general protocol still true… Read more »

cseitz
cseitz
11 years ago

Mr Brunson–why such anger and insult? Fr Smith asked questions and I took the effort to answer him. Grace and peace.

Rob+
Rob+
11 years ago

MarkBrunson – “They’ve no grounds” “superstitions”? — Oh, Mark. Bless you.

Pat O'Neill
Pat O'Neill
11 years ago

Christopher:

As I see it, those of us who have come to the conclusion that gays and lesbians are as likely to be legitimately called to holy orders or marriage as anyone else have, indeed, contemplated we might be wrong…that, indeed, we–as a church–have been wrong for centuries.

I see it, rather, that those on your side of this issue are unable to contemplate that you might be wrong…and cling to a wrongness simply because it is traditional.

cseitz
cseitz
11 years ago

Fr Ron–as the remark attributed to me does not appear on this thread, could you indicate on what thread it does appear? Thanks.

MarkBrunson
MarkBrunson
11 years ago

Absolutely.

No grounds. It’s based on superstitious worship of a text completely divorced from actual experience of God.

Sorry you think that that’s “anger and insult” – it’s simply the truth. I can’t show you compassion if I allow you to lie to yourselves and others.

I thank you for your blessings, I thank God for Grace, and I pray for your conversion. However, your views are simply poisonous and self-delusory.

Malcolm+
11 years ago

While I do find Christopher Seitz to be insufferably pompous, I really must rise to his defence here – at least to a degree. The Anglican Communion Institute has as much right to comment on the affairs of the Anglican Communion as any other self-declared interest group or individual blogger. In this regard, they are no different than Affirming Catholicism, Changing Attitude, Integrity. Like these other organizations, the ACI lists its principle actors (mostly, it seems, two professors from Wycliffe College, Toronto) and an assortment of people who are prepared to be identified as endorsers and supporters. Now, personally I… Read more »

MarkBrunson
MarkBrunson
11 years ago

For Mr. Rob and Mr. Seitz, You may feel you’ve been put upon by being called to repentance for your ignorance, but to refer to anger or insult is a bit disingenuous. Let’s look, shall we, at a comment from StandFirm. Now, you may argue that SF is not your forum, etc. but these are people who you both empower and represent. They are the end product of your mis-teaching: “”The LGBT “inhabit space in the church” in the same way that sawdust or insect parts or other adulterants inhabit poorly-made sausage. If you don’t notice it you might wonder… Read more »

cseitz
cseitz
11 years ago

“This is why I am required to recall you from your egregious erring in understanding God and His Love, both for your souls and those of others. I imagine you feel anger, being chastised for your clearly destructive teachings, but, I’m sure the temple and pharasaic leaders felt the same. Take heart! At least I haven’t hauled you up in front of your followers and denounced you as vipers, whitewashed tombs, and devourers of widows and orphans.” Another clearly argued contribution from a “Thinking Anglican.” BTW, you sound exactly like a hard-right TV evangelist. I suspect there is more than… Read more »

Rob+
Rob+
11 years ago

MarkBrunson, your good intentions are well, underwhelming at best and certainly not persuasive. Repentance from “ignorance,” etc? You refuse to engage ACI’s remarks and find some hateful blogger’s remarks on Standfirm to point to because you won’t countenance anyone that believes in traditional Christian sexual morality and mark them as hateful, (even when they are writing on Communion process!). That is clear. I recommend you read any of the books by Leanne Payne, especialy The Healing Presence and Crisis in Masculinity. She has led many out of the pit of despair, self-hatred and sexual meaninglessness and addiction. Her ministry to… Read more »

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