Thinking Anglicans

Opinion – 26 November 2016

Jonathan Robinson ξἐνος Measuring Success or Faithfulness

Bishop James Jones delivered the The Tenth Anniversary Ebor Lecture on 23 November: A Journey around Justice.
[also available in alternative formatting here]

David Ison ViaMedia.News “Absolute is NOT fabulous!”

St Chrysostom’s Church, Manchester Bishops’ choices of funeral hymns

Nick Bundock Church Times Grief, self-criticism, and a new immanence

17
Leave a Reply

avatar
3000
17 Comment threads
0 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
11 Comment authors
KatePamFather Ron SmithSusannah ClarkDavid Runcorn Recent comment authors
  Subscribe  
newest oldest
Notify of
Kelvin Holdsworth
Guest

I tried to leave this comment under David Ison’s interesting article on ViaMedia but couldn’t tell whether it was to be moderated or whether I was just defeated by the commenting system which didn’t seem to want to let me log in. Anyway… Most people in the Church of Scotland would argue that it isn’t established. Many of us who are not in the C of E or C of S might be just a little puzzled at the idea that established (or indeed national) churches bear any more witness of the Christian faith to the world than other denominations… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

“For followers of Jesus the King, there can be no unqualified and absolute obedience to political or religious rulers. That’s why humility, dialogue, and the willingness to truly entertain the possibility that we might be wrong, are essential in tackling difficult issues.” This statement by David Ison points to the unresolved tension in his very interesting article. The tension resides in the juxtaposition of the metaphor of Christ as King with the call to remember fallibility and the importance of dialogue. The Kingship metaphor makes one’s opening comments in any dialogue process somewhat problematic. The metaphor is a handicap in… Read more »

Jeremy Fagan
Guest
Jeremy Fagan

Jonathan Robinson’s article is powerful, and deserves a wide circulation in the church. What is success and failure? How do we measure such things? Is it even a helpful metaphor in the first place?

Andrew
Guest
Andrew

James Jones’ lecture has a compelling rejoinder to the Evangelical Council’s recent ‘Guarding the Deposit – Apostolic Truth for an Apostolic Church’ discussion document, which focusses exclusively on Lambeth 1:10 and the conservative arguments from Scripture against SSM, marking clear boundaries between what they see as the ‘apostolic legacy’ as opposed to the ‘godless’ and ‘immoral’ LGBT flock and their allies. Yet, by relying entirely on the so-called terror texts, the document fails anywhere to mention justice or make reference to other parts of Scripture that might allow for an alternative perspective on an extremely rigid orthodoxy. Jones takes what… Read more »

Pam
Guest
Pam

Jonathan Robinson may take heart from this quote by the American novelist Edith Wharton: “The success of a ghost story may be judged by its thermometrical quality; if it sends a cold shiver down one’s spine, it has done its job and done it well.”

Father David
Guest
Father David

In response to the Bishop’s choice of funeral hymns I can report that at a Memorial Service last week, in addition to some very fine fairly nationalistic Christian hymns, we also sang (with great gusto) “Who do you think you are kidding Mr. Hitler, if you think old England’s done”. The deceased was delighted with the outcome of the Referendum on June 23rd. Although I myself was far from pleased with the referendum result and look forward to a rematch, I also heartily joined in with the singing of the theme tune to Dad’s Army.

Father Ron Smith
Guest

What a wonderful synopsis of the Gospel imperative towards the implementation of Justice in Bishop James Jones’ seminal Lecture at York Minster! This single statement caught my eye, that seems to encapsulate much of what the Good bishop is saying about the Church’s need to understand that human justice really is at the heart of Jesus’ ministry: “I served in the House of Bishops for nearly twenty years and there was not a meeting that did not have on its agenda either the ordination of women or gay relationships or both. These are vitally important issues but the emotional energy… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

The Church cannot afford to be – even indirectly – to be complicit in the loss of young lives, due to the Church’s outdated understanding of gender and sexuality issues. The heartache of the Lowe Family, their Vicar, Nick Bundock, and the Parish Family of Saint James & Emmanuel, Didsbury, is mute testimony to the gap between a defective theology and the reality of the Gospel of Jesus, who came to set us free from prejudice towards those we do not understand, who are different from ourselves and yet part of the family of all God’s children – loved by… Read more »

Kate
Guest
Kate

“We believe in an Inclusive Church — church which does not discriminate on any level, including: economic power, gender, mental health, mental ability, physical ability, race or sexuality.”

Fine words but somewhat hypocritical for a PCC that pays a parish share to a national church which institutionally discriminates against LGBT people.

Simon Chalder
Guest
Simon Chalder

Thank you for pointing to the funeral hymns of bishops posting. I found it interesting and, oddly, a little ‘light’ relief in a stressful church. I found it encouraging to see what hymns speak to bishops for funerals!
The choice of Gerald O’Collins is an interesting contrast with its more populist choices. (https://stchrysostoms.wordpress.com/2016/11/27/one-priests-choice-of-funeral-hymns/)

Father Ron Smith
Guest

“Fine words but somewhat hypocritical for a PCC that pays a parish share to a national church which institutionally discriminates against LGBT people.” – Kate –

Dear Kate, are you quite sure that you attributing the sin of hypocrisy to the right party here? There is no lack of love on the part of the parish. Rather it may devolve on the Church to which the parish belongs, constitutionally.

David Runcorn
Guest

Kate can you really not find anything to commend and be moved by in that searingly honest account of a community journey from passive exclusive to celebrating inclusion. Or do you really mean they should have left the Church of England over this? Please, let’s celebrate journeys to inclusion where we find them happening.

Kate
Guest
Kate

Been there. Two years of hell. An accepting local congregation would have been little help against a national policy that made me feel that God could not love me. Never knowing what Christian site would tell you that you are less than others. Never knowing when you would read some churchman saying you are an abomination. And a desire to honour God, no matter the cost. I know firsthand how people like Lizzie feel (I won’t presume to say that is how Lizzie felt) and I am very unimpressed by what I read. She deserves recognition of her immense bravery… Read more »

Susannah Clark
Guest

I shed tears when I first read about Lizzie’s death. I have to say, the tears are pretty close on reading about it a second time. Lord have mercy. May the God of grace accompany and comfort everyone involved, as they continue on their journeys, somehow deprived of a young woman who should have been sharing and shining in their lives: a catastrophic loss. For the rest of us, outside this small circle, this family and community… these words from Nick’s article stood out: “Like many sim­ilar churches, however, we have largely avoided the topic of homo­sexuality, to preserve the… Read more »

Father Ron Smith
Guest

“But equally her sacrifice demands more than a statement. It demands refusing to fund a national policy which could leave others feeling like that, helping to ensure others don’t wrongly believe that God cannot love them, helping to ensure others are not forced into an avoidable sacrifice”. Posted by: Kate on Tuesday, 29 November 2016 at 2:05pm GMT Dear Kate, there is a huge difference between standing up for justice in the Church and refusing to finance its Gospel ministry, That’s what happens in the Anti-Gay Churches. Surely you don’t want to imitate their prejudice? Two wrongs just don’t make… Read more »

Pam
Guest
Pam

Well said, Susannah and other commenters on this very tragic death. To be notionally part of a community can bring feelings of utter hopelessness, as in Lizzie’s case. Scripture teaches us that God is so close to us, the everlasting presence and power of God. Our faith communities need to live out that truth first and foremost. If the only thing worshippers sense is that truth then the church has done its work.

Kate
Guest
Kate

@Ron Smith

I am sure that the local parish can use the funds to forward God’s ministry.

@Susannah

“An analysis of diocesan websites highlights and epitomises this problem. With a very few laudable exceptions, they avoid LGBT presence and topics like the plague… for fear of disturbing ‘the peace’.”

Spot on observation. And most parishes too.

And those that do include a statement of inclusion which they do not really mean because they know they will deny marriage.