Mark Clavier Well-Tempered Giving Reform Its Proper Language
A follow-up to ‘Beyond the Scaffolding’
Archdruid Eileen The Beaker Folk of Husborne Crawley Faculty for the Creation of a Storage Room for all the Things we Can’t Face Raising Faculties For the Removal Of
Jeremy Morris Ad fontes Encountering Pope Francis
Jeremy Morris writes an affectionate tribute to Pope Francis, entirely rightly so following his death. I’d be interested to hear his thoughts about what conservative or liberal means when there are so many gay priests, especially in the Vatican itself. Frederic Martel interviewed a cohort of male sex workers in and around Termini station in Rome who almost exclusively service priests from the Vatican. What is happening here theologically when the public stance is more or less conservative but the reality is dramatically different with paid for bumping and grinding? Anglicans are only marginally better with their winsome endorsement of… Read more »
This is a discussion that needs some care and nuance It is clear that, for whatever reason, many homosexual and gender variant men have a vocation to spirituality. In Europe many may end up in the church. I would regard this as healthy as long as they could cope with the celibacy. But alongside this, in past more conservative and homophobic decades, many young homosexual men joined the church as a way of avoiding the other option of married life. This would not always be a conscious decision but young confused men reacting to a difficult situation and seeing the… Read more »
Simon, the term ‘homosexual’ is a pseudo scientific term that was invented in the 19th century and is rejected by queer people nowadays on that basis. I don’t have a medical condition Simon; I don’t find women sexually attractive and I do find men attractive. There’s no need to ascribe a pathology to something that has been around since the year dot. As to the Vatican, I think you’ve fallen into your own elephant trap. Instead of nuance you’ve generalised about the motives of those men ordained and holding office in the Vatican. Even if your supposition was correct, what… Read more »
Father Dean, Obviously we have different views as to the use of the word homosexual. I am sorry if that has caused difficulties. I think there may have been a lot of systemic or willed blindness in the Vatican about these behaviours. Don’t ask Don’t tell is a widespread behaviour, and not just in the Armed Forces. It’s a pity about the disagreement because you ask a very good question. With this history how does the Roman Catholic Church find a constructive way forward. The problem is not just with the theological history, but the history of distrust created by… Read more »
“Don’t ask Don’t tell” was an American military policy which ended in 2010. It never existed in UK military, and all prohibitions against LGBT+ communities serving in UK forces ended in 2000.
You are absolutely correct. Thank you. But it was the behaviour (the word I used) when I served in the UK Armed Forces as a gay man before the ban ended. It was clear that many of my colleagues either knew of or suspected my gay nature, but being my colleagues or friends, they chose not to make trouble for me. From discussion with many other gay serving members of the armed forces, and many gay members of various churches, I think that is a common experience in contexts where homosexuality may be disapproved of. I am not criticising that… Read more »
Just to add to the previous comment.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/21/in-the-closet-of-the-vatican-by-frederic-martel-review.
I think Brown calls it about right on Martel’s book. My own reaction on reading the book was a desperate sadness for so many ruined lives.
Indeed. The other side is the number of heterosexual but supposedly celibate priests have relationships with women, including prostitutes.
[note – it is perfectly possible to have a friendly relationship with a prostitute and not treat them like dirt. I think Jesus can be used as an example? It doesn’t always need to be sexual or indeed exploitative.]
An alarming number of sex workers are the victims of modern day slavery and any priest, straight or gay, encouraging that trade needs to take a look into his soul. Female sex workers are often pimped and so also the victims of financial exploitation. There is a sordid hinterland of organised crime groups to much of the world’s prostitution. Straight and gay men who use sex workers are invariably supporting those OCGs.
Yes, many, but not all. As in all areas of human endeavour or bondage, there is a spectrum.
Just read your comment below. Yes.
Priests are just the same as everyone else, so trying to blame conservatives for priests simply for being human is as ridiculous as it sounds.
As a priest I would argue that any priest having sex with a sex worker has to consider the wider moral and ethical implications, not just those of the physical encounter itself. A small proportion of sex workers will be financially independent and have chosen a way of earning a living that is congenial, or at least not uncongenial. Most however are enslaved in one form or another: drink, drugs, pimps or sex trafficking. A priest of all people ought to be cognisant of that.
What an excellent comment!
reflecting on Jeremy Morris’s blog. I do hope given the obvious friendship between Justin Welby and Pope Francis that Justin Welby was at least invited to the funeral.
WHY?
Reitreating- Why? Justin Welby’s relationship with the Pope was as ABC- a role.
Whether ++York should have been is a different question again- is he an Acting ABC, or Deputy, or what? Who decides on such ‘protocols’? Perhaps ‘The Vatican’ helped by not issuing an invitation-does anyone know? Myself, an Anglican prone to passing thoughts, I am not that interested. The Roman Church is not ‘my’ church. A pope dies; a succesor is, in time, discerned and elected. One holy, catholic and apostolic church continues. Amen.
People meet all sorts of people through their job. This was no exception They just seemed to be very friendly so all I was doing was saying I hope Justin was given the opportunity to go. Like any of us when our friends die, we are invited to the funeral. there is no compulsion to go. that is all i was meaning.
The Vatican would be alive to the diplomatic implications of extending an official invitation to a former Archbishop of Canterbury who had had to resign in disgrace. The Pope’s funeral was a state occasion, not a private family funeral. So I would be rather surprised if Welby was invited.
Diplomacy and good manners are perhaps not the same thing as friendship. Let us not over-egg it!
When discussing the balance between friendship and protocol at Pope Francis’ funeral, then this may be of interest to some people. There may be a bit of journalistic exaggeration but the basics appear to be true.
https://www.timesnownews.com/lifestyle/people/who-is-sister-genevive-the-nun-who-quietly-broke-protocol-at-pope-franciss-funeral-article-151491753
I think it was Robert Runcie who said Queen Elizabeth II offered friendliness rather than friendship. He received a Christmas card from her every year he was ++ Canterbury and was surprised not to receive one after he retired. It then dawned on him that whoever was ++ Canterbury at the time would get a card.
I suspect the Vatican’s approach to other church leaders is similar. The Pope maintains cordial relations with the current incumbents but this is not the same as personal friendship.
No idea whether they were formally ‘invited’, but a delegation of clergy of the Anglican Communion attended and the Archbishop of York was one of their number:
https://episcopalnewsservice.org/2025/04/28/anglican-delegation-attends-funeral-of-pope-francis-reflects-on-papacy/
Some further information. The Anglican delegation included the following: The Most Revd Marinez Bassotto (Primate of the Igreja Episcopal Anglicana do Brasil, Regional Primate for the Americas) The Most Revd and Rt Hon Stephen Cottrell (Archbishop of York and Primate of England) The Most Revd Philip Freier (Co-Chair of ARCIC and former Archbishop of Melbourne) The Rt Revd Robert Innes (Co-Chair of IARCCUM and Bishop in Europe) Canon Maggie Swinson (Chair of the Anglican Consultative Council) The Most Revd Hosam Naoum (Vice-Chair of the Anglican Consultative Council and Primate of the Episcopal Church of Jerusalem and the Middle East) The Rt… Read more »
Cardinal Zuppi and he will take the name Clement XV.
What do others think?
I don’t want to pick on any particular comment about who did, and did not, attend the Pope’s funeral but that it fell so close to Easter invites a contrast between an event for the world’s luminaries and the modest, quiet burial of Jesus.