I am most grateful to Dr Percy for referencing the new book ‘Superpower Britain’ in his second essay. The book aims to address how the hubris of wartime planners turned into the nemesis of postwar policymakers and did so within the very short time span of 1943/44 to 1947/49. However, it also takes aim at the voluminous literature of ‘declinism’, which kicked off with Andrew Shonfield’s seminal ‘British Economic Policy Since the War’ (1958), which had a transformative impact upon Whitehall, and led to the self-fulfilling belief that there was nothing which the UK could do well, or perhaps at… Read more »
Thank you, Froghole. As ever, I sincerely appreciate your insights for their breadth and depth. These essays are part of the wider agenda and approach that I’ve been cultivating within the field of critical grounded ecclesiology over the past few decades. It is becoming an urgent task as academics seek to understand the deeper reasons for what looks like irreversible church decline in the western world. Traditional approaches to secularisation (stemming from 1960s sociology) are no longer adequate. At the same time, trying to develop an account for decline through theological debates (e.g., liberal vs conservative etc) is just as… Read more »
Very many thanks indeed for your kind remarks (though I fear any ecclesiology of mine is of a featherweight variety, if that). I should add that I very much appreciate your essays, but what – for me – is especially useful about them is that they put into ever starker relief how decreasingly useful the Church of England has become as a church. It is not merely the attenuation of pastoral provision at the local level, but the manner in which it has, by degrees, slipped into a condition of almost complete stasis – a condition amplified by the partisanship… Read more »
Thank you, Froghole. Agreed. And I should have added in response to ‘Homeless Anglican’ below that the patient is in denial over the seriousness of their condition, yet still regards themselves as a fit and healthy physician to the soul of the nation, and cannot err in practice. So on CofE safeguarding, despite a long and consistent record of botched procedures and methods, with policies and practices causing even more damage to the abused than the original harm, these ‘surgeons’ want to carry on ‘operating’. The whole presumptive conceit of CofE ‘lessons learned reviews’ is that the bishops are learning… Read more »
Thank you Martyn and Froghole. Professor Jay stated it clearly too…. “We recommend the creation of two separate charities, one for independent operational safeguarding and one for independent scrutiny of safeguarding. Further tinkering with existing structures will not be sufficient to make safeguarding in the Church consistent, accountable and trusted by those who use its services.” Well, we had Synod’s response……
Gareth
1 day ago
I’m not sure why Martyn Percy seems reluctant about disestablishment.
Most Anglican provinces in the world do just fine without it and it would allow for the CofE to make decisions about it’s future without being encumbered by the State or without the pressure to capitulate to secular culture.
I think this would be beneficial also for ensuring equality for other denominations and religious groups in the UK.
There’s no good reason why the CofE should continue to be privileged in law when about 1% of the population are CofE church goers.
I am not in favour of establishment, Gareth. My recent essays, articles and other publications make the case for disestablishment very clear.
Bermuda is the only other Anglican Church outside England that enjoys establishment rights. It is not a province, however.
A parliamentary bill to disestablish the CofE would be timely. Equally timely would be legislation that made the churches subject to the law of the land, and in areas such as employment, safeguarding etc, externally regulated by a fully independent body that ensured the CofE complied with regulatory frameworks that scrutinised other public bodies and held them accountable.
Disestablishment might end the “cuckoo in the nest” problem of evangelicals with no interest in being Anglican trying to take over the church to benefit from its resources and position, which has been the biggest source of internal conflict over the last few decades.
If the CofE is disestablished there is no incentive for evangelicals who don’t care for the threefold orders of ministry nor for episcopal polity to stay. They can go where their preferences lead them and join Vineyard and leave the CofE to Anglicans.
Conservative evangelicals would not be at all happy in the Vineyard, though some charismatics would. And many conevos, being Reformed, are very Anglican – they take the BCP more seriously than most middle of the road Anglicans do. The 39 Articles are a Reformed manifesto.
It seems weird to see evangelicals associated with a positive attitude toward establishment. Many of my evangelical friends are far more at home with the concept of a gathered church, in which baptism is for believers and their children, and the focus is on equipping the saints for a wider work of ministry in the community.
Calling people cuckoos isn’t great. I wholeheartedly agree with the theology of BCP and the 39 Articles. When my grandma shut her eyes to never wake up again, her well prayed over copy of BCP was by her chair. My heroes include John Wycliffe, Thomas Cranmer, John Hooper, Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Ridley, Charles Simeon, John Wesley, George Whitefield, William Wilberforce, J.C. Ryle, and both Henry Venns. I read their writings and I see myself as heir to their theology. My mentors were thoroughly Anglican. I am an evangelical. Am I an illegitimate intruder in my church? 70% of ordinands are… Read more »
No doubt there are Anglican “prayerbook” evangelicals around, but they’re outnumbered by those who merely consider the CofE the “best boat to fish from” and it is them who I would consider cuckoos. And I’m not suggesting ejection, only surmising that without the advantages of establishment the CofE boat won’t look so appealing.
Query whether disestablishment would make much difference if the Church retains its capital, which is presumably what makes the Church of England ‘the most convenient boat from which to fish’ (to paraphrase John Stott). Previous disestablishments (for Ireland and Wales) were accompanied by concurrent disendowments. The Church of Ireland was comprehensively disendowed in order to return to the Irish people property which – so the argument went – had been taken from them by the spiritual emissaries of the Ascendancy (but it was also really to help to buy social peace and to create a rural middle class which would… Read more »
In what way? By sending defence/weapons to Israel (depending on your bias – does anybody know exactly what is involved?). By some vote at the UN? By not standing up and ranting like the SNP? I seriously do not know what you are going on about.
I do appreciate 99% of your erudite comments. But your last few words make me wonder how reliable you are! What exactly has Starmer, Lammy etc. done wrong? Apart from calling for a ceasefire since Dec 2023?
‘Paraphrase’? – or ‘Misrepresent’? It has been claimed: ‘Stott was a convinced Anglican. He could never have remained in the denomination of his childhood simply by default. His justifications extended beyond the typical “Bash” camper argument that the Church of England represented “the best boat to fish from” for reaching the country. He was convinced that the denomination’s Reformed roots not only gave space for Evangelicals to remain within it but also mandated their presence, despite the meager numbers of clergy in postwar England. Many cradle anglican evangelicals like me might take offence at being labelled ‘cuckoos’, if we weren’t so peaceable and self-confident in… Read more »
FearandTremolo
1 day ago
In the run up to the conclave, a nun was interviewed on the BBC and said that she didn’t mind who the next pope was, so long as he was a good friend of Jesus.
After everything, I think that’s what I want from the ABC. Someone who can set the tone and have that spiritual, prayerful authority. I don’t know which person that would be, but that’s what I’m praying for.
I saw this comment just after listening to Bart Ehrman’s recent YouTube cast intriguingly entitled ‘How many Jesuses are in the New Testament?’ The authors of the literature of the New Testament had hugely differing views about who and what Jesus is. To this day that ambiguity leaves ample scope for believers conveniently to recreate Jesus in their own image or to commandeer him for their own particular causes. I am a bit more wary than you about simply needing someone who is a friend of Jesus as the new Archbishop. I say this after many years of observing ‘friends’… Read more »
Homeless Anglican
1 day ago
I read Martyn’s piece with realism, and sadness. I think he has hit the nail on the head of the situation we are in, but I really want to address and discuss the way out of it. I am tired of reading how bad things are, rather than how good they are and how even better they could be! Is he writing a premature eulogy for the CofE? I feel like I am sitting at the bedside of someone in A&E looking not at a family member, but my total family, my church. Surely this is not palliative care? Surely… Read more »
I think honesty and realism are crucial. But to follow your analogy of the patient in hospital, it is hard to move forward if the injured/ill party is in denial. Furthermore, the patient appears to think that curing themselves and a path to being restored full health largely rests in their own hands. Under these circumstances, it is understandably worrying and also rather gloomy to be sitting with a patient who is clearly extremely unwell, yet in total denial, and making plans for their next round of new initiatives. We would all find this challenging if this was a real… Read more »
Thank you for your fulsome and considered answer. But all I have is a clearer diagnosis of how bad things are- none of which I disagree with. But the narrative has been almost totally about decline and death and not about revival and renewal. If my mother church is dying. I want to know what the response is. Where is the doctor, St Luke. Because I believe with all my heart and soul that she could and can live. Put bluntly, I want solutions rather than endless death knells. I know there is no quick fix, but I would love… Read more »
The problem, as I say, is the patient is in denial, so treatment is refused. We need honesty and realism. We can’t help with treatment until the patient accepts the diagnosis.
I agree. Most of us especially if we are ” cradle” Anglicans would find it very difficult to find an ecclesial home anywhere else. And there are good things happening. I just feel in my lifetime the traditions have moved apart and fragmented and sadly it is unclear what holds us together or quite where we are going.
I have also read that the Church of England Pension Scheme is the real glue that holds the C of E together.
Adrian Clarke
21 hours ago
As far as WASGIJ is concerned , why let a metaphor get in the way of detailed analysis, which for some no matter how many times it is explained on this forum never seems to get through. It sounds something like connected incrementalism where the end result isn’t known and decisions are based on a connected set of shared values in the hope this achieves something like the Kingdom Jesus intended the church to be. The problem is where there are no shared values and each does what is right in its own eyes , muddling through becomes the norm.… Read more »
Anglican Priest
20 hours ago
One of the disconnects in all this is that, non English anglicans saw in Canterbury a Communion, whilst inside the CofE, one saw Empire and all the backdraft of that. I worked with Rowan Williams, along with others, for several years. I suspect he saw all the trap-doors lurking, but his Catholic side believed in a Communion. (I don’t think Welby had any notion of ecclesiology). If the CofE is truly a protestant national church–and I don’t doubt it–it needs to frame itself identity in line with that, lock, stock and barrel. Does it have the courage? and would the… Read more »
This is spot on. But I cannot see bishops accepting the consequences of realising their church is theologically Protestant, and not Catholic. The Tudor fudge – a Protestant church, but with bishops retained – has bequeathed the CofE a legacy that no longer works. It’s run its course. Elected bishops with limited/renewable terms of office/tenure, but made accountable and under contract (the trajectory for employment of other clergy) might be the best way forward now, in effect mirroring area superintendent roles in other Protestant polities. I see little mileage in the idea that Petrine Episcopal lineage must be preserved at… Read more »
“The Tudor fudge…has bequeathed the CofE a legacy that no longer works.” The consequences of this fudge remind me of a letter which H. E. Manning wrote to Samuel Wilberforce following the Gorham judgment: “The manifest faithlessness of the living Church of England to its own recorded Faith, even more than its miserable contradictions is driving multitudes into mistrust, unbelief or secession. Fears and doubts which men do not dare speak before Bishops are freely spoken before us. And I do not believe that the Bishops of the Church of England are aware of the fearful unsettlement of faith…every year… Read more »
Anglicans outside the CofE have long adhered to the idea of See of Canterbury apostolic succession. There used to be colorful charts hanging in sacristies which traced the lineage. Getting used to the world of opinion inside the CofE itself (Lambeth 1920 is a long way off), one wonders if these were more prominent and more persuasive outwith England itself.Was this to do with lack of any association with establishmentarianism? Thus severing the class elite dimension referred to by Dr Percy? Was it simple geographical “distance from reality”? Or was it (in North America for example) the existence of major… Read more »
It is of course worth stepping inside Westminster Cathedral (RC) London, where the Archbishops of Canterbury are listed. But the list ends at William Wareham (d. 1532). Cranmer et al divorced themselves from Rome at the behest of Henry VIII when they concurred that the monarch was the Supreme Head of the Church. The list in Westminster Cathedral reflects this. There has been a vacancy in see since 1533. With Protestant theology (39 articles etc), no central authority to impose liturgy etc in the CofE, let alone the wider Communion, Anglicanism is a pan-Protestant federation of churches. There is no… Read more »
Thanks for adding one important issue – state enforcement – to the long list of factors which may be leading to the Church of England’s current woes.
Ever since Constantine the Church has been able to use Imperial or State power to enforce the population’s compliance with Church teaching and values. Sometime this was with great ruthlessness, at other times a more subtle application of soft power.
But such levers of power are being disconnected, or no longer work.
I am most grateful to Dr Percy for referencing the new book ‘Superpower Britain’ in his second essay. The book aims to address how the hubris of wartime planners turned into the nemesis of postwar policymakers and did so within the very short time span of 1943/44 to 1947/49. However, it also takes aim at the voluminous literature of ‘declinism’, which kicked off with Andrew Shonfield’s seminal ‘British Economic Policy Since the War’ (1958), which had a transformative impact upon Whitehall, and led to the self-fulfilling belief that there was nothing which the UK could do well, or perhaps at… Read more »
Thank you, Froghole. As ever, I sincerely appreciate your insights for their breadth and depth. These essays are part of the wider agenda and approach that I’ve been cultivating within the field of critical grounded ecclesiology over the past few decades. It is becoming an urgent task as academics seek to understand the deeper reasons for what looks like irreversible church decline in the western world. Traditional approaches to secularisation (stemming from 1960s sociology) are no longer adequate. At the same time, trying to develop an account for decline through theological debates (e.g., liberal vs conservative etc) is just as… Read more »
Very many thanks indeed for your kind remarks (though I fear any ecclesiology of mine is of a featherweight variety, if that). I should add that I very much appreciate your essays, but what – for me – is especially useful about them is that they put into ever starker relief how decreasingly useful the Church of England has become as a church. It is not merely the attenuation of pastoral provision at the local level, but the manner in which it has, by degrees, slipped into a condition of almost complete stasis – a condition amplified by the partisanship… Read more »
Thank you, Froghole. Agreed. And I should have added in response to ‘Homeless Anglican’ below that the patient is in denial over the seriousness of their condition, yet still regards themselves as a fit and healthy physician to the soul of the nation, and cannot err in practice. So on CofE safeguarding, despite a long and consistent record of botched procedures and methods, with policies and practices causing even more damage to the abused than the original harm, these ‘surgeons’ want to carry on ‘operating’. The whole presumptive conceit of CofE ‘lessons learned reviews’ is that the bishops are learning… Read more »
Thank you Martyn and Froghole. Professor Jay stated it clearly too…. “We recommend the creation of two separate charities, one for independent operational safeguarding and one for independent scrutiny of safeguarding. Further tinkering with existing structures will not be sufficient to make safeguarding in the Church consistent, accountable and trusted by those who use its services.” Well, we had Synod’s response……
I’m not sure why Martyn Percy seems reluctant about disestablishment.
Most Anglican provinces in the world do just fine without it and it would allow for the CofE to make decisions about it’s future without being encumbered by the State or without the pressure to capitulate to secular culture.
I think this would be beneficial also for ensuring equality for other denominations and religious groups in the UK.
There’s no good reason why the CofE should continue to be privileged in law when about 1% of the population are CofE church goers.
I am not in favour of establishment, Gareth. My recent essays, articles and other publications make the case for disestablishment very clear.
Bermuda is the only other Anglican Church outside England that enjoys establishment rights. It is not a province, however.
A parliamentary bill to disestablish the CofE would be timely. Equally timely would be legislation that made the churches subject to the law of the land, and in areas such as employment, safeguarding etc, externally regulated by a fully independent body that ensured the CofE complied with regulatory frameworks that scrutinised other public bodies and held them accountable.
Would this apply just to the C of E? Or all churches, synagogues and mosques?
There are no reasons for faith-based public organisations to be in breach of normal external professional independent regulatory scrutiny.
Disestablishment might end the “cuckoo in the nest” problem of evangelicals with no interest in being Anglican trying to take over the church to benefit from its resources and position, which has been the biggest source of internal conflict over the last few decades.
Or – it will allow the church to sit down and come to a negotiated split which would allow both parties to move in the direction they desire.
If the CofE is disestablished there is no incentive for evangelicals who don’t care for the threefold orders of ministry nor for episcopal polity to stay. They can go where their preferences lead them and join Vineyard and leave the CofE to Anglicans.
Conservative evangelicals would not be at all happy in the Vineyard, though some charismatics would. And many conevos, being Reformed, are very Anglican – they take the BCP more seriously than most middle of the road Anglicans do. The 39 Articles are a Reformed manifesto.
It seems weird to see evangelicals associated with a positive attitude toward establishment. Many of my evangelical friends are far more at home with the concept of a gathered church, in which baptism is for believers and their children, and the focus is on equipping the saints for a wider work of ministry in the community.
Calling people cuckoos isn’t great. I wholeheartedly agree with the theology of BCP and the 39 Articles. When my grandma shut her eyes to never wake up again, her well prayed over copy of BCP was by her chair. My heroes include John Wycliffe, Thomas Cranmer, John Hooper, Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Ridley, Charles Simeon, John Wesley, George Whitefield, William Wilberforce, J.C. Ryle, and both Henry Venns. I read their writings and I see myself as heir to their theology. My mentors were thoroughly Anglican. I am an evangelical. Am I an illegitimate intruder in my church? 70% of ordinands are… Read more »
No doubt there are Anglican “prayerbook” evangelicals around, but they’re outnumbered by those who merely consider the CofE the “best boat to fish from” and it is them who I would consider cuckoos. And I’m not suggesting ejection, only surmising that without the advantages of establishment the CofE boat won’t look so appealing.
Query whether disestablishment would make much difference if the Church retains its capital, which is presumably what makes the Church of England ‘the most convenient boat from which to fish’ (to paraphrase John Stott). Previous disestablishments (for Ireland and Wales) were accompanied by concurrent disendowments. The Church of Ireland was comprehensively disendowed in order to return to the Irish people property which – so the argument went – had been taken from them by the spiritual emissaries of the Ascendancy (but it was also really to help to buy social peace and to create a rural middle class which would… Read more »
Sorry, *allegedly* trashing international humanitarian law, of course…
In what way? By sending defence/weapons to Israel (depending on your bias – does anybody know exactly what is involved?). By some vote at the UN? By not standing up and ranting like the SNP? I seriously do not know what you are going on about.
I do appreciate 99% of your erudite comments. But your last few words make me wonder how reliable you are! What exactly has Starmer, Lammy etc. done wrong? Apart from calling for a ceasefire since Dec 2023?
‘Paraphrase’? – or ‘Misrepresent’? It has been claimed: ‘Stott was a convinced Anglican. He could never have remained in the denomination of his childhood simply by default. His justifications extended beyond the typical “Bash” camper argument that the Church of England represented “the best boat to fish from” for reaching the country. He was convinced that the denomination’s Reformed roots not only gave space for Evangelicals to remain within it but also mandated their presence, despite the meager numbers of clergy in postwar England. Many cradle anglican evangelicals like me might take offence at being labelled ‘cuckoos’, if we weren’t so peaceable and self-confident in… Read more »
In the run up to the conclave, a nun was interviewed on the BBC and said that she didn’t mind who the next pope was, so long as he was a good friend of Jesus.
After everything, I think that’s what I want from the ABC. Someone who can set the tone and have that spiritual, prayerful authority. I don’t know which person that would be, but that’s what I’m praying for.
I saw this comment just after listening to Bart Ehrman’s recent YouTube cast intriguingly entitled ‘How many Jesuses are in the New Testament?’ The authors of the literature of the New Testament had hugely differing views about who and what Jesus is. To this day that ambiguity leaves ample scope for believers conveniently to recreate Jesus in their own image or to commandeer him for their own particular causes. I am a bit more wary than you about simply needing someone who is a friend of Jesus as the new Archbishop. I say this after many years of observing ‘friends’… Read more »
I read Martyn’s piece with realism, and sadness. I think he has hit the nail on the head of the situation we are in, but I really want to address and discuss the way out of it. I am tired of reading how bad things are, rather than how good they are and how even better they could be! Is he writing a premature eulogy for the CofE? I feel like I am sitting at the bedside of someone in A&E looking not at a family member, but my total family, my church. Surely this is not palliative care? Surely… Read more »
I think honesty and realism are crucial. But to follow your analogy of the patient in hospital, it is hard to move forward if the injured/ill party is in denial. Furthermore, the patient appears to think that curing themselves and a path to being restored full health largely rests in their own hands. Under these circumstances, it is understandably worrying and also rather gloomy to be sitting with a patient who is clearly extremely unwell, yet in total denial, and making plans for their next round of new initiatives. We would all find this challenging if this was a real… Read more »
Thank you for your fulsome and considered answer. But all I have is a clearer diagnosis of how bad things are- none of which I disagree with. But the narrative has been almost totally about decline and death and not about revival and renewal. If my mother church is dying. I want to know what the response is. Where is the doctor, St Luke. Because I believe with all my heart and soul that she could and can live. Put bluntly, I want solutions rather than endless death knells. I know there is no quick fix, but I would love… Read more »
The problem, as I say, is the patient is in denial, so treatment is refused. We need honesty and realism. We can’t help with treatment until the patient accepts the diagnosis.
I agree. Most of us especially if we are ” cradle” Anglicans would find it very difficult to find an ecclesial home anywhere else. And there are good things happening. I just feel in my lifetime the traditions have moved apart and fragmented and sadly it is unclear what holds us together or quite where we are going.
It used to be said that what held the C of E together was Wippells. Alas, Wippells is no longer with us – does that explain our decline?
I have also read that the Church of England Pension Scheme is the real glue that holds the C of E together.
As far as WASGIJ is concerned , why let a metaphor get in the way of detailed analysis, which for some no matter how many times it is explained on this forum never seems to get through. It sounds something like connected incrementalism where the end result isn’t known and decisions are based on a connected set of shared values in the hope this achieves something like the Kingdom Jesus intended the church to be. The problem is where there are no shared values and each does what is right in its own eyes , muddling through becomes the norm.… Read more »
One of the disconnects in all this is that, non English anglicans saw in Canterbury a Communion, whilst inside the CofE, one saw Empire and all the backdraft of that. I worked with Rowan Williams, along with others, for several years. I suspect he saw all the trap-doors lurking, but his Catholic side believed in a Communion. (I don’t think Welby had any notion of ecclesiology). If the CofE is truly a protestant national church–and I don’t doubt it–it needs to frame itself identity in line with that, lock, stock and barrel. Does it have the courage? and would the… Read more »
This is spot on. But I cannot see bishops accepting the consequences of realising their church is theologically Protestant, and not Catholic. The Tudor fudge – a Protestant church, but with bishops retained – has bequeathed the CofE a legacy that no longer works. It’s run its course. Elected bishops with limited/renewable terms of office/tenure, but made accountable and under contract (the trajectory for employment of other clergy) might be the best way forward now, in effect mirroring area superintendent roles in other Protestant polities. I see little mileage in the idea that Petrine Episcopal lineage must be preserved at… Read more »
“The Tudor fudge…has bequeathed the CofE a legacy that no longer works.” The consequences of this fudge remind me of a letter which H. E. Manning wrote to Samuel Wilberforce following the Gorham judgment: “The manifest faithlessness of the living Church of England to its own recorded Faith, even more than its miserable contradictions is driving multitudes into mistrust, unbelief or secession. Fears and doubts which men do not dare speak before Bishops are freely spoken before us. And I do not believe that the Bishops of the Church of England are aware of the fearful unsettlement of faith…every year… Read more »
Anglicans outside the CofE have long adhered to the idea of See of Canterbury apostolic succession. There used to be colorful charts hanging in sacristies which traced the lineage. Getting used to the world of opinion inside the CofE itself (Lambeth 1920 is a long way off), one wonders if these were more prominent and more persuasive outwith England itself.Was this to do with lack of any association with establishmentarianism? Thus severing the class elite dimension referred to by Dr Percy? Was it simple geographical “distance from reality”? Or was it (in North America for example) the existence of major… Read more »
It is of course worth stepping inside Westminster Cathedral (RC) London, where the Archbishops of Canterbury are listed. But the list ends at William Wareham (d. 1532). Cranmer et al divorced themselves from Rome at the behest of Henry VIII when they concurred that the monarch was the Supreme Head of the Church. The list in Westminster Cathedral reflects this. There has been a vacancy in see since 1533. With Protestant theology (39 articles etc), no central authority to impose liturgy etc in the CofE, let alone the wider Communion, Anglicanism is a pan-Protestant federation of churches. There is no… Read more »
Thanks for adding one important issue – state enforcement – to the long list of factors which may be leading to the Church of England’s current woes.
Ever since Constantine the Church has been able to use Imperial or State power to enforce the population’s compliance with Church teaching and values. Sometime this was with great ruthlessness, at other times a more subtle application of soft power.
But such levers of power are being disconnected, or no longer work.