Not so very long ago, Confirmation was the passport to receiving the Eucharist, and I think that worked well. Then someone thought children were suitable to receive the sacrament before Confirmation. I never understood why adults were not included unless confirmed or intending to be confirmed. Result: even fewer confirmations than before. And more youngsters miss out on learning more about the faith through confirmation classes. Own goal.
Confirmation used to give access to the full sacramental life of the Church. So, yes the Eucharist. And also marriage. And ordination. It also used to be assumed that a parish officebearer would be confirmed, since they were also required to be a communicant. It’s a bit hard to offer a confirmation class when there are no children in your congregation. It’s not so much an own goal as a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I suspect there are other factors to consider in the decline of confirmation numbers. Bigger changes have left confirmation as ‘a sacrament seeking a theology.’ Relatively few… Read more »
“Confirmation does tend to come into its own as a rite of passage for making a commitment to faith. I’ve accompanied people baptised in infancy who have had the lights slowly come on as they’ve explored faith and prayer”. This is very similar to what happens in Baptist communities. Children may be brought for dedication or blessing, but are not baptised – that comes later when they “own” the faith for themselves. (In fact Baptist churches often have a problem as those who have been baptised elsewhere as children often wish to be re-baptised by immersion as a visible and… Read more »
CofE practice is remarkable in its theological inconsistency here. I remember Paul Bradshaw pointing out that the Baptism of Infants implies a sacramental theology which is ‘ex opere operato’, whereas the Adults Only (ie old enough to start work as an agricultural labourer circa 1830) policy of admission to Communion suggests something very different, a form of receptionism, perhaps. (Historically, of course, the rite was a unified one, and (according to the Book of Bradshaw) our current practice in the West was strongly influenced by the availability of bishops in that little Italian settlement known to some as Rome.) There… Read more »
+David Stancliffe, when Chair of the Liturgical Commission, claimed that the post-baptismal prayer, ‘May God, who has received you by baptism into his Church, pour upon you the riches of his grace ….’, when accompanied with Chrismation using episcopally consecrated Chrism, was analogous to confirmation and should admit the child to Communion. Confirmation would come later, after catechesis and once the young adult was ready to ‘own’ their baptism in front of their chief pastor and receive the grace to continue their discipleship.
In my church the Roman Catholic Church we have First Holy Communion before Confirmation, but before First Holy Communion is given Children have to go through a period of preparation and also make their first Confession. Then when it comes to Confirmation there is another period of instruction. When this was first introduced in the Church of England, it was part of a Report issued by what what was then the General Synod Board of Education “Children in the Way, which came out in the late 1990’s when my late mother Dorothy Jamal was the National Children’s Officer for the… Read more »
Maybe but just a couple of thoughts that may be related. Even in large, growing churches, the number of confirmations continue to decline. And I’d relate directly to the wider cultural issue that people are increasingly uneasy about affiliation. Baptism doesn’t really feel like affiliation, especially infant baptism, but confirmation really does. So people seem happy to be baptised and happy to worship regularly, but not happy to affiliate. I guess the picture isn’t helped by priests like me who struggle with the point of confirmation and would largely endorse the Orthodox practice of communion on the basis of baptism.… Read more »
“I never understood why adults were not included unless confirmed or intending to be confirmed. Result: even fewer confirmations than before.” Wouldn’t this suggest more, not fewer, confirmations? The liturgical norm – although not necessarily the pastoral approach – is one in which adults are baptized, confirmed and receive first Communion within a single rite. When adults are baptized days before their confirmation it can weaken the significance of baptism by separating it from confirmation and Eucharist. Is this the rationale behind Canon B24, which states that the Bishop should be given at least a week’s notice of an adult… Read more »
agreed, Confirmation classes were a vital stage of learning more about the faith as one approached adulthood, and would be more relevant today with the secularisation of RSE in schools . To appreciate the mystery of the sacrament at an early age is very difficult . Confirmation classes were the perfect opportunity for enquiring minds to learn from those most qualified.
But is that so? I’m not denying the benefits of solid catechesis, but I’ve long felt that the young have an innate sense of the sacramental – a sense which adults have often been socialised out of. No way of proving it either way of course – after all, it is a mystery!
Recalling a former parish priest of mine who was very pally with the Orthodox, he was once asked by an Orthodox priest pal what happened in Confirmation classes. ‘We tell them what happens in the Eucharist,’ he replied. Impressed, the Orthodox returned, ‘Oh, would you tell me, too? I’ve always wanted to know.’ Is Communion about the encounter with God appropriate to who one is at that particular point in one’s journey, or is it an exhibition of propositional knowledge to a particular standard? If so, the latter, should we excommunicate all learning-disadvantaged people? If the former, should we drop… Read more »
Parishes lament how their young folk disappear from church soon after confirmation. Yet the very name ‘confirmation prep’ invites comparison with preparing for graduation: not from Uni, but from the life of the Church. Discipleship – begun in baptism, affirmed at confirmation and nourished by the Eucharist – would be better supported by ongoing catechesis detached from any association with earning meal tickets.
In the western church confirmation was included as one of the 7 sacraments by Peter Lombard but it was much neglected. To remedy this in 1281 Archbishop Peckham decreed noone should be admitted to communion unless they were confirmed ( though of course people communicated very rarely then) so this was the discipline that the Reformation kept. I suppose the age varied. John Wesley was confirmed very young I believe but in the 19th and 20th c it seems to have been in the 12-15 age range, creeping earlier under the influence of the Parish Communion. Professor Lampe’s Seal of… Read more »
“I wonder how far confirmation is still commonly practised “de rigueur” in our Public Schools?”. Am I the only one here who shudders at such a statement? Surely the decision to be confirmed should be an individual’s response to an awareness of faith, not something that is “done” with a batch of students who reach a certain age, even with preparation?
The statement was simply a question. It would be interesting to have some statistics.
FrDavid H
2 days ago
Confirmation was more widespread when the Church of England taught Anglicanism.. With the spread of HTB-style churches and happy-clappy ministers, the need for a bishop’s hands on the head became irrelevant. Who needs a passport to listen to worship songs, or a man in denims explaining the horrors of same-sex marriage?
As I reflect on my own spiritual experience, while I have a vague memory of my confirmation at the age of twelve, I have no memory at all of any of the content of the confirmation classes (this despite the fact that I know the vicar was a good teacher!). So experientially (I’m not speaking objectively or theologically here), if confirmation was meant to be my own acceptance of the baptismal commitments made by my parents, it was ineffectual. Also, when I look back, I can detect no memory of any difference in my awareness of the Holy Spirit’s presence… Read more »
Thankyou Trevor for your observations on hymns and all that goes towards making them suitable in worship. I think you have expressed every view that I have held for years.
I’m just grateful there are just enough in our congregation to make the choice of tune, speed and volume a consideration, not forgetting to let our more recent composers in on the side when they least expect it!.
Yes, it seemed sensible. My rule when an organist was that the vicar chooses the hymns and organist chooses the tunes. There are some very dreary tunes out there. Also do not underestimate the time and effort taken by the organist. It is usually a volunteer position with minimal compensation. It helped my pocket in student days. Yet, in my day, it involved a Thursday choir practice, choosing and learning anthems, organ practice for the voluntary (normally many hours of work per piece over several weeks), possibly a Saturday wedding with learning a piece requested by the bride, which again… Read more »
I touched a nerve, without intending to. There is a great variety in sermons, whether a 5 min. for a family service or a biblical exposition lasting 30 mins.
Nigel, I think it is quite legitimate to draw people’s attention to the amount of work involved in being a church musician, without needing to denigrate the dedication and hard work of a preacher.
What is the theological or liturgical purpose of the voluntary? I can understand how a well chosen, prepared and delivered sermon and set of hymns can enhance the spiritual effectiveness of a service. But based on my regular attendance at Salisbury cathedral evensong I struggle to appreciate the voluntary in the same way. It often seems to me to be overloud and bombastic, and not matched to what has gone on earlier. But is that based on my lack of appreciation of its purpose? Five years ago there was a strong expectation that congregation members would always stay in place… Read more »
At an advent evensong, for example, I started with a Alain Fantasie, and the closing was the Alain Trois dances. I was trying to fit the occasion. I would not play those at a morning family service,
I think with all things there are those that put effort in and prepare and those that don’t. I have heard sermons and organ voluntaries of both ilks. Although I do wonder if many priests are compelled to get up in the middle of the night to pen their sermons as some cathedral organists are required to do to practice their voluntaries!
Yes, many times I used to crawl out of the church on a Saturday at midnight after practising for the morning service,
For cathedral organists it is more like a job, whereas for many of us it is a weekend volunteer activity.
Fr Dexter Bracey
2 days ago
“…my own experience as an organist is that diffident congregations are better encouraged to sing by a fairly robust ‘accompaniment'”, writes Trevor Thurston-Smith. Absolutely right. I’ve heard congregations practically give up singing if the organist plays too softly – no-one who is not a confident singer wants to hear themselves over the organ.
Agreed. The Mass I attended on Saturday night was very well attended, but the organ (clavinova) accompaniment was so quiet and feeble that it could barely be heard. Consequently, half the congregation didn’t bother trying to join in; apart from one or two brave souls, most of us just gave up half way through the hymns and closed our hymn books.
Laurence Cunnington
2 days ago
“At the moment, clergy can’t, but they can be in same-sex civil partnerships; to the world outside the church, that may look odd, but the C of E gets around this by saying that there isn’t any sex in civil partnerships; and, I suppose, logically, that there has to be sex in marriages?” Helen King Yet if one converts a same-sex civil partnership into a marriage, the ‘start’ of the marriage is backdated to that of the civil partnership – even if that date is before the introduction of same-sex marriages. A clergyperson, upon retirement, could do this and thus… Read more »
Last edited 2 days ago by Laurence Cunnington
Froghole
1 day ago
Time was when confirmation training involved the catechism. Who catechises these days? Perhaps the increasing incoherence of the Church of England might be attributable – at least in part – to the gradual, and now almost complete, disappearance of that custom over the last century (as I think Dr Butler has noted on occasion): https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-christians-abc-9780198206170?cc=gb&lang=en&#
I think the C of E would benefit from a new catechism along the lines of an official ( or at least semi official) Outline of the Faith as understood by the Church of England to put in the hands of enquirers and the basis of other catechetical material. My father b 1912 if asked what a sacrament was would reply “An outward sign etc) as per the Prayer Book. I once prepared an 87 year old for confirmation and a friend accompaning her told me that at his school ( St Paul’s) they were prepared for confirmation using the… Read more »
I do confirmation training where I work in the US. In our case, many people simply are coming from other denominations. The categories confirmation, re-affirmation, reception are operative depending on how adult profession of faith (if relevant) has been made elsewhere. Nevertheless, many opt to do the catechetical part, just because they want to know the content of the faith they confess (and necessary for confirmation). I know the contorted history of confirmation/baptism, but find the catechesis helpful as do those coming. The Outline of Faith in the TEC BCP is very bare bones. I used to try to adapt/edit/supplement… Read more »
Historically there was just one initiation rite which was baptism. It might or might not have included anointing with oil and laying on of hands, depending on where you were – there was much local variation . As one or two have pointed out in this thread, by about the 4th century this rite began to break up in the West, but not in the east, with the result that, sometime later on a separate service of confirmation emerged. There is no confirmation in the early centuries and so it ends up being a rite in search of a theology,… Read more »
The Orthodox communicate babies/ little children true ( though the parents bringing them up often don’t receive as confession before every act of communion is still strongly held. But their baptism rite includes chrismation so the child is confirmed. Of course some clergy do use chrism after baptising see Allan Sheath’s comments above with its implication that the child could/should become communicate ( but I imagine they don’t).
Chrismation is not confirmation. Chrismation was sometimes part of the ancient unified rite but was not always performed by a bishop nor accompanied by laying on of hands. Confirmation is a western invention (by accident).
I think it was invented much earlier in the Acts of the Apostles, where the Apostles laid hands on those who had been Baptised, when I was prepared for Confirmation as an Anglican in the past, the Priest who prepared me Canon Gordan Sealey, read the passage to us Candidates from the Acts of the Apostles and told us Candidates that, that was where the origin of Confirmation began. Jonathan
I am afraid that is incorrect. No NT scholar that I can think of thinks those Acts passages are confirmation – not least because the rest of Acts has the practice of baptism alone. (And there is no confirmation in the post-apostolic rites.) The two Acts passages you refer to are the exception and need an explanation – Lampe thought it was because they mark the Gospel entering new territory. Seeing those Acts passages as confirmation was an interpretation invented by Dix and Mason as far as I can see.
I think Charles is right and that we need to remember the early history of baptism. Thinking back to my own liturgical training, a Sarum College course on rites of initiation with Paul Bradshaw as guest lecturer, it seems to me that the very early church took a lot of its practice from the contemporary mystery religions. The Eucharist was a mystery reserved for initiates and conducted in secret behind closed doors. The initiation rite giving access to the mystery was baptism, which was conducted after a significant period of instruction and preparation. In many mystery religions the candidates would… Read more »
Twenty years after GS issued regulations on admitting children to Communion on the basis of their baptism, the practice still remains within the gift of the bishop. Why, I don’t know. But it does suggest some hesitancy in recognising baptism as sufficient in itself.
Some dioceses also require a rite of admission to Communion on the day, but again, isn’t this questioning baptism’s sufficiency? Surely all that is needed is to give notice that on X Sunday N & N will be receiving their first Communion, plus naming them in the Prayers of Intercession?
Yes i agree – what we have is a C of E fudge! Bishops also tell me they want to keep confirmation so they can visit parishes…
Bob
1 day ago
I am following the many comments about confirmation with interest. However, a much more serious issue is that, according to latest Statistics for Mission data, the majority of churches have hardly any children and young people worshiping on a Sunday.
Anglican Priest
1 day ago
Just a further note. I was impressed with the seriousness with which catechism is taken in the Catholic parish life I experienced in France. With the clergy shortage, laity do a lot of things we associate with ministerial/priestly roles. But not only because of that. To be catechized is to know yourself as a Catholic fidele. You own your identity. Confirmation is the formal, public declaration of that — and this whatever one makes of theology and church historical precedent. But justification along these lines is also to hand, and informs the liturgical service, readings, and so forth. I guess… Read more »
That’s because in the Catholic Church a person is saved not simply by justification by faith, but also by observing the church’s sacraments. In the early church baptism by water as a sign of repentance and baptism in the Spirit were all that was required, and that’s what happened to me. I still remember it as if it was yesterday.
I disagree with this (protestant? self referential? ‘that’s what happened to me’) idea and characterisation.
I doubt a modern Catholic would recognise it *on the terms you use it to make your point.* Without further elaboration.
I also don’t recoginse your appeal to “the early church” against modern Catholic practice.
Perhaps I don’t understand your point.
God bless.
Last edited 21 hours ago by Anglican Priest
Mark Bennet
22 hours ago
Another role that Confirmation can play in practice, if not in theory, is as a rite to acknowledge adult commitment in a church where infant baptism has been the norm. We have a confirmation service next week. A lot of play is made of young candidates – our oldest is in her 90s, and whatever the theory, it will be meaningful to her as she is confirmed alongside her daughter and granddaughter. We have a second family group too – it is almost as if we are living in the time of Acts where households are referenced more than. once… Read more »
One of the drivers for admission to Communion on the basis of baptism was the pressure to confirm candidates at an ever younger age in order for them to receive Communion. Confirmation – so it was thought – once freed from such pressure could come later to meet a pastoral need. That it hasn’t is a loss.
Allan’s “That it hasn’t is a loss” seems to contradict what Mark Bennett wrote: “Confirmation is a rite that can meet a pastoral need”. I share Mark’s perspective. In a parish that admits baptised children to communion, confirmation is rare because it is now used to mark adults coming to a personal faith, which is rare. The only reason I’m concerned about how few confirmations there are is that it now honestly indicates how rare it is that adults come to faith. That matters. Apart from that, why does it matter that there are few confirmations?
That confirmation hasn’t come later in cases where its use could have fulfilled a pastoral need is where the loss is. An example is the parish church which regularly ‘re-baptizes’ adults who were baptized as children and who now wish to affirm their faith. An act which flies in the face of the entire Western and Anglican canon. Confirmation, for all its confusion, is at least canonical.
Not disagreeing with any of these comments but I’d add that it seems to me that whenever people stand up as adults and say publicly that they want to be Christians that’s something to celebrate (assuming it’s a sensible version of Christianity!) I’d prefer those previously baptised to make use of the available rite of confirmation although if they want to get rebaptised in another church I’d still celebrate the important thing which is their choosing to be a follower of Jesus Christ. In the context of the collapsing of the Western church i wouldn’t worry about canonical purity! Far… Read more »
A not so humble parishioner
10 hours ago
Obviously all church music including hymns is, like all music, a subjective thing. As a church musician or minister with responsibility for music one has to discern the difference between complaints of preference and ones of genuine difficulty of access particularly for any congregational singing. For example there is a difference between someone complaining that you have chosen the “wrong” tune to “Love Divine” and people complaining that Hymns were hard to sing due to complex words, rhythms or range. We now have many different types of church music being adapted for congregational singing, some of which is less well… Read more »
There is one thought that has lingered in my mind about Hymns. For starters they certainly play an important part in Christian Worship. It is important to get good hymns into our churches, that reflect good doctrine. I like the Wesley Hymns for example, as there is good Doctrine in these hymns, we sing his hymns in my own church the Roman Catholic Church. I cannot help thinking that a Hymn Book is a Theology Book of the Church, in that people learn their Theology from the Hymns, and in that regard a Hymn Book can be a teacher of… Read more »
That is absolutely right Jonathan. However some of Wesley’s hymns (and others) are so full of theology that they are virtually unsingable! There is a place, I think, for both hymns and songs with ‘heavy’ content and ones of simple devotion.
In an essay I wrote as an ordinand, I applied the term ‘insidious theology’ to hymns. Very often, I think, we sing hymns (old and new) without noticing the theology behind the words. One very popular worship song tends to bring people up with a shock as they sing the second verse and realise what they are singing. That can open a good discussion about theology and belief, and I’ve run a discussion group using hymns in that way.
A lot of interesting theological and pastoral reflection here. A wide variety of practice and different understandings. But alas the number being confirmed shrinks more and more and the number of children and teenagers in our churches ( with some exceptions) is small.As in many areas of C of E life we simply muddle through without as far as I can see much theological direction. We become more fragmented. I find it disheartening and I think others do, but I can’t unfortunately see any likelihood of anything much being done about it.
The catechumenate model of staged initiation rites was commended liturgically in 2005 as CW: Rites on the Way; followed later by the Pilgrim course designed to integrate with it. Yet despite the uptake of the Pilgrim course, is anyone using these rites? They represent a radical challenge to our inherited way(s!) of doing things, and 20 years ago I for one could not see a sufficiently large gap between Church and society to justify going down this road. But that was then and this is now. Any thoughts?
Totally agree Perry. Unless there is a positive intention to welcome and provide for families and their children the current pattern will continue. Funding needs to be provided to train family and children’s workers, and to appoint them to churches, who need to see this ministry as the priority. Sadly too many congregations bemoan the lack of children but are unwilling or unable to change.
Janet Fife
1 hour ago
What is the point of confirming adults who are transferring from another Christian denomination? When I was confirmed into the C of E, having been a professing Christian for some 20 years, I felt I was acting out a lie and betraying my whole Christian background. My parents obviously thought so too, because they disowned me. I have spoken to others with a history as e.g. faithful Methodists or Baptists who have felt similarly. We really need to be more ecumenical.
Not so very long ago, Confirmation was the passport to receiving the Eucharist, and I think that worked well. Then someone thought children were suitable to receive the sacrament before Confirmation. I never understood why adults were not included unless confirmed or intending to be confirmed. Result: even fewer confirmations than before. And more youngsters miss out on learning more about the faith through confirmation classes. Own goal.
Confirmation used to give access to the full sacramental life of the Church. So, yes the Eucharist. And also marriage. And ordination. It also used to be assumed that a parish officebearer would be confirmed, since they were also required to be a communicant. It’s a bit hard to offer a confirmation class when there are no children in your congregation. It’s not so much an own goal as a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I suspect there are other factors to consider in the decline of confirmation numbers. Bigger changes have left confirmation as ‘a sacrament seeking a theology.’ Relatively few… Read more »
“Confirmation does tend to come into its own as a rite of passage for making a commitment to faith. I’ve accompanied people baptised in infancy who have had the lights slowly come on as they’ve explored faith and prayer”. This is very similar to what happens in Baptist communities. Children may be brought for dedication or blessing, but are not baptised – that comes later when they “own” the faith for themselves. (In fact Baptist churches often have a problem as those who have been baptised elsewhere as children often wish to be re-baptised by immersion as a visible and… Read more »
CofE practice is remarkable in its theological inconsistency here. I remember Paul Bradshaw pointing out that the Baptism of Infants implies a sacramental theology which is ‘ex opere operato’, whereas the Adults Only (ie old enough to start work as an agricultural labourer circa 1830) policy of admission to Communion suggests something very different, a form of receptionism, perhaps. (Historically, of course, the rite was a unified one, and (according to the Book of Bradshaw) our current practice in the West was strongly influenced by the availability of bishops in that little Italian settlement known to some as Rome.) There… Read more »
+David Stancliffe, when Chair of the Liturgical Commission, claimed that the post-baptismal prayer, ‘May God, who has received you by baptism into his Church, pour upon you the riches of his grace ….’, when accompanied with Chrismation using episcopally consecrated Chrism, was analogous to confirmation and should admit the child to Communion. Confirmation would come later, after catechesis and once the young adult was ready to ‘own’ their baptism in front of their chief pastor and receive the grace to continue their discipleship.
I’d go back further and say it’s the separation of confirmation from baptism in the West that has left it rudderless and in search of a theology.
In my church the Roman Catholic Church we have First Holy Communion before Confirmation, but before First Holy Communion is given Children have to go through a period of preparation and also make their first Confession. Then when it comes to Confirmation there is another period of instruction. When this was first introduced in the Church of England, it was part of a Report issued by what what was then the General Synod Board of Education “Children in the Way, which came out in the late 1990’s when my late mother Dorothy Jamal was the National Children’s Officer for the… Read more »
Maybe but just a couple of thoughts that may be related. Even in large, growing churches, the number of confirmations continue to decline. And I’d relate directly to the wider cultural issue that people are increasingly uneasy about affiliation. Baptism doesn’t really feel like affiliation, especially infant baptism, but confirmation really does. So people seem happy to be baptised and happy to worship regularly, but not happy to affiliate. I guess the picture isn’t helped by priests like me who struggle with the point of confirmation and would largely endorse the Orthodox practice of communion on the basis of baptism.… Read more »
“I never understood why adults were not included unless confirmed or intending to be confirmed. Result: even fewer confirmations than before.” Wouldn’t this suggest more, not fewer, confirmations? The liturgical norm – although not necessarily the pastoral approach – is one in which adults are baptized, confirmed and receive first Communion within a single rite. When adults are baptized days before their confirmation it can weaken the significance of baptism by separating it from confirmation and Eucharist. Is this the rationale behind Canon B24, which states that the Bishop should be given at least a week’s notice of an adult… Read more »
agreed, Confirmation classes were a vital stage of learning more about the faith as one approached adulthood, and would be more relevant today with the secularisation of RSE in schools . To appreciate the mystery of the sacrament at an early age is very difficult . Confirmation classes were the perfect opportunity for enquiring minds to learn from those most qualified.
But is that so? I’m not denying the benefits of solid catechesis, but I’ve long felt that the young have an innate sense of the sacramental – a sense which adults have often been socialised out of. No way of proving it either way of course – after all, it is a mystery!
Recalling a former parish priest of mine who was very pally with the Orthodox, he was once asked by an Orthodox priest pal what happened in Confirmation classes. ‘We tell them what happens in the Eucharist,’ he replied. Impressed, the Orthodox returned, ‘Oh, would you tell me, too? I’ve always wanted to know.’ Is Communion about the encounter with God appropriate to who one is at that particular point in one’s journey, or is it an exhibition of propositional knowledge to a particular standard? If so, the latter, should we excommunicate all learning-disadvantaged people? If the former, should we drop… Read more »
Parishes lament how their young folk disappear from church soon after confirmation. Yet the very name ‘confirmation prep’ invites comparison with preparing for graduation: not from Uni, but from the life of the Church. Discipleship – begun in baptism, affirmed at confirmation and nourished by the Eucharist – would be better supported by ongoing catechesis detached from any association with earning meal tickets.
In the western church confirmation was included as one of the 7 sacraments by Peter Lombard but it was much neglected. To remedy this in 1281 Archbishop Peckham decreed noone should be admitted to communion unless they were confirmed ( though of course people communicated very rarely then) so this was the discipline that the Reformation kept. I suppose the age varied. John Wesley was confirmed very young I believe but in the 19th and 20th c it seems to have been in the 12-15 age range, creeping earlier under the influence of the Parish Communion. Professor Lampe’s Seal of… Read more »
“I wonder how far confirmation is still commonly practised “de rigueur” in our Public Schools?”. Am I the only one here who shudders at such a statement? Surely the decision to be confirmed should be an individual’s response to an awareness of faith, not something that is “done” with a batch of students who reach a certain age, even with preparation?
The statement was simply a question. It would be interesting to have some statistics.
Confirmation was more widespread when the Church of England taught Anglicanism.. With the spread of HTB-style churches and happy-clappy ministers, the need for a bishop’s hands on the head became irrelevant. Who needs a passport to listen to worship songs, or a man in denims explaining the horrors of same-sex marriage?
I have a feeling you are using the term ‘happy-clappy’ in a derogatory sense. Please stop. It is another form of name calling. Embrace diversity.
Men in denims explaining the horrors of same-sex marriage is derogatory .
Quite
I’m glad you are against homophobic ‘sermons’ from smiling men in denims. It’s very derogatory of our gay brethren and sisters.
Would you like to tell us where you were at a service where this actually happened?
As I reflect on my own spiritual experience, while I have a vague memory of my confirmation at the age of twelve, I have no memory at all of any of the content of the confirmation classes (this despite the fact that I know the vicar was a good teacher!). So experientially (I’m not speaking objectively or theologically here), if confirmation was meant to be my own acceptance of the baptismal commitments made by my parents, it was ineffectual. Also, when I look back, I can detect no memory of any difference in my awareness of the Holy Spirit’s presence… Read more »
Thank you for this personal and meaningful testimony.
I appreciate your generous response.
Thankyou Trevor for your observations on hymns and all that goes towards making them suitable in worship. I think you have expressed every view that I have held for years.
I’m just grateful there are just enough in our congregation to make the choice of tune, speed and volume a consideration, not forgetting to let our more recent composers in on the side when they least expect it!.
Yes, it seemed sensible. My rule when an organist was that the vicar chooses the hymns and organist chooses the tunes. There are some very dreary tunes out there. Also do not underestimate the time and effort taken by the organist. It is usually a volunteer position with minimal compensation. It helped my pocket in student days. Yet, in my day, it involved a Thursday choir practice, choosing and learning anthems, organ practice for the voluntary (normally many hours of work per piece over several weeks), possibly a Saturday wedding with learning a piece requested by the bride, which again… Read more »
‘I think preparing a weekly sermon is relatively trivial.’
Preparing a weekly sermon was a 6-8 hour commitment to me, and I built my working week around it. I can assure you, it was not trivial.
Nor is it for me, especially as in my tradition “meaty” sermons are expected, and also we have to build the whole service from scratch every time.
I touched a nerve, without intending to. There is a great variety in sermons, whether a 5 min. for a family service or a biblical exposition lasting 30 mins.
Maybe trivial is the wrong word for many. But i can assure that a major voluntary would take at least 8 hrs of preparation..some much more.
Nigel, I think it is quite legitimate to draw people’s attention to the amount of work involved in being a church musician, without needing to denigrate the dedication and hard work of a preacher.
What is the theological or liturgical purpose of the voluntary? I can understand how a well chosen, prepared and delivered sermon and set of hymns can enhance the spiritual effectiveness of a service. But based on my regular attendance at Salisbury cathedral evensong I struggle to appreciate the voluntary in the same way. It often seems to me to be overloud and bombastic, and not matched to what has gone on earlier. But is that based on my lack of appreciation of its purpose? Five years ago there was a strong expectation that congregation members would always stay in place… Read more »
I guess one size does not fit all.
At an advent evensong, for example, I started with a Alain Fantasie, and the closing was the Alain Trois dances. I was trying to fit the occasion. I would not play those at a morning family service,
I think with all things there are those that put effort in and prepare and those that don’t. I have heard sermons and organ voluntaries of both ilks. Although I do wonder if many priests are compelled to get up in the middle of the night to pen their sermons as some cathedral organists are required to do to practice their voluntaries!
Yes, many times I used to crawl out of the church on a Saturday at midnight after practising for the morning service,
For cathedral organists it is more like a job, whereas for many of us it is a weekend volunteer activity.
“…my own experience as an organist is that diffident congregations are better encouraged to sing by a fairly robust ‘accompaniment'”, writes Trevor Thurston-Smith. Absolutely right. I’ve heard congregations practically give up singing if the organist plays too softly – no-one who is not a confident singer wants to hear themselves over the organ.
Agreed. The Mass I attended on Saturday night was very well attended, but the organ (clavinova) accompaniment was so quiet and feeble that it could barely be heard. Consequently, half the congregation didn’t bother trying to join in; apart from one or two brave souls, most of us just gave up half way through the hymns and closed our hymn books.
“At the moment, clergy can’t, but they can be in same-sex civil partnerships; to the world outside the church, that may look odd, but the C of E gets around this by saying that there isn’t any sex in civil partnerships; and, I suppose, logically, that there has to be sex in marriages?” Helen King Yet if one converts a same-sex civil partnership into a marriage, the ‘start’ of the marriage is backdated to that of the civil partnership – even if that date is before the introduction of same-sex marriages. A clergyperson, upon retirement, could do this and thus… Read more »
Time was when confirmation training involved the catechism. Who catechises these days? Perhaps the increasing incoherence of the Church of England might be attributable – at least in part – to the gradual, and now almost complete, disappearance of that custom over the last century (as I think Dr Butler has noted on occasion): https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-christians-abc-9780198206170?cc=gb&lang=en&#
I think the C of E would benefit from a new catechism along the lines of an official ( or at least semi official) Outline of the Faith as understood by the Church of England to put in the hands of enquirers and the basis of other catechetical material. My father b 1912 if asked what a sacrament was would reply “An outward sign etc) as per the Prayer Book. I once prepared an 87 year old for confirmation and a friend accompaning her told me that at his school ( St Paul’s) they were prepared for confirmation using the… Read more »
I do confirmation training where I work in the US. In our case, many people simply are coming from other denominations. The categories confirmation, re-affirmation, reception are operative depending on how adult profession of faith (if relevant) has been made elsewhere. Nevertheless, many opt to do the catechetical part, just because they want to know the content of the faith they confess (and necessary for confirmation). I know the contorted history of confirmation/baptism, but find the catechesis helpful as do those coming. The Outline of Faith in the TEC BCP is very bare bones. I used to try to adapt/edit/supplement… Read more »
The bishop of Oxford has advocated for a new catechism and Pilgrim has one – see here. About The Pilgrim Way | The Church of England
Historically there was just one initiation rite which was baptism. It might or might not have included anointing with oil and laying on of hands, depending on where you were – there was much local variation . As one or two have pointed out in this thread, by about the 4th century this rite began to break up in the West, but not in the east, with the result that, sometime later on a separate service of confirmation emerged. There is no confirmation in the early centuries and so it ends up being a rite in search of a theology,… Read more »
The Orthodox communicate babies/ little children true ( though the parents bringing them up often don’t receive as confession before every act of communion is still strongly held. But their baptism rite includes chrismation so the child is confirmed. Of course some clergy do use chrism after baptising see Allan Sheath’s comments above with its implication that the child could/should become communicate ( but I imagine they don’t).
Chrismation is not confirmation. Chrismation was sometimes part of the ancient unified rite but was not always performed by a bishop nor accompanied by laying on of hands. Confirmation is a western invention (by accident).
I think it was invented much earlier in the Acts of the Apostles, where the Apostles laid hands on those who had been Baptised, when I was prepared for Confirmation as an Anglican in the past, the Priest who prepared me Canon Gordan Sealey, read the passage to us Candidates from the Acts of the Apostles and told us Candidates that, that was where the origin of Confirmation began. Jonathan
I am afraid that is incorrect. No NT scholar that I can think of thinks those Acts passages are confirmation – not least because the rest of Acts has the practice of baptism alone. (And there is no confirmation in the post-apostolic rites.) The two Acts passages you refer to are the exception and need an explanation – Lampe thought it was because they mark the Gospel entering new territory. Seeing those Acts passages as confirmation was an interpretation invented by Dix and Mason as far as I can see.
I think Charles is right and that we need to remember the early history of baptism. Thinking back to my own liturgical training, a Sarum College course on rites of initiation with Paul Bradshaw as guest lecturer, it seems to me that the very early church took a lot of its practice from the contemporary mystery religions. The Eucharist was a mystery reserved for initiates and conducted in secret behind closed doors. The initiation rite giving access to the mystery was baptism, which was conducted after a significant period of instruction and preparation. In many mystery religions the candidates would… Read more »
Twenty years after GS issued regulations on admitting children to Communion on the basis of their baptism, the practice still remains within the gift of the bishop. Why, I don’t know. But it does suggest some hesitancy in recognising baptism as sufficient in itself.
Some dioceses also require a rite of admission to Communion on the day, but again, isn’t this questioning baptism’s sufficiency? Surely all that is needed is to give notice that on X Sunday N & N will be receiving their first Communion, plus naming them in the Prayers of Intercession?
Yes i agree – what we have is a C of E fudge! Bishops also tell me they want to keep confirmation so they can visit parishes…
I am following the many comments about confirmation with interest. However, a much more serious issue is that, according to latest Statistics for Mission data, the majority of churches have hardly any children and young people worshiping on a Sunday.
Just a further note. I was impressed with the seriousness with which catechism is taken in the Catholic parish life I experienced in France. With the clergy shortage, laity do a lot of things we associate with ministerial/priestly roles. But not only because of that. To be catechized is to know yourself as a Catholic fidele. You own your identity. Confirmation is the formal, public declaration of that — and this whatever one makes of theology and church historical precedent. But justification along these lines is also to hand, and informs the liturgical service, readings, and so forth. I guess… Read more »
That’s because in the Catholic Church a person is saved not simply by justification by faith, but also by observing the church’s sacraments. In the early church baptism by water as a sign of repentance and baptism in the Spirit were all that was required, and that’s what happened to me. I still remember it as if it was yesterday.
I disagree with this (protestant? self referential? ‘that’s what happened to me’) idea and characterisation.
I doubt a modern Catholic would recognise it *on the terms you use it to make your point.* Without further elaboration.
I also don’t recoginse your appeal to “the early church” against modern Catholic practice.
Perhaps I don’t understand your point.
God bless.
Another role that Confirmation can play in practice, if not in theory, is as a rite to acknowledge adult commitment in a church where infant baptism has been the norm. We have a confirmation service next week. A lot of play is made of young candidates – our oldest is in her 90s, and whatever the theory, it will be meaningful to her as she is confirmed alongside her daughter and granddaughter. We have a second family group too – it is almost as if we are living in the time of Acts where households are referenced more than. once… Read more »
One of the drivers for admission to Communion on the basis of baptism was the pressure to confirm candidates at an ever younger age in order for them to receive Communion. Confirmation – so it was thought – once freed from such pressure could come later to meet a pastoral need. That it hasn’t is a loss.
Allan’s “That it hasn’t is a loss” seems to contradict what Mark Bennett wrote: “Confirmation is a rite that can meet a pastoral need”. I share Mark’s perspective. In a parish that admits baptised children to communion, confirmation is rare because it is now used to mark adults coming to a personal faith, which is rare. The only reason I’m concerned about how few confirmations there are is that it now honestly indicates how rare it is that adults come to faith. That matters. Apart from that, why does it matter that there are few confirmations?
I imagine it matters to those who see Confirmation as a be means of grace and not just a ratification of baptismal vows.
That confirmation hasn’t come later in cases where its use could have fulfilled a pastoral need is where the loss is. An example is the parish church which regularly ‘re-baptizes’ adults who were baptized as children and who now wish to affirm their faith. An act which flies in the face of the entire Western and Anglican canon. Confirmation, for all its confusion, is at least canonical.
Not disagreeing with any of these comments but I’d add that it seems to me that whenever people stand up as adults and say publicly that they want to be Christians that’s something to celebrate (assuming it’s a sensible version of Christianity!) I’d prefer those previously baptised to make use of the available rite of confirmation although if they want to get rebaptised in another church I’d still celebrate the important thing which is their choosing to be a follower of Jesus Christ. In the context of the collapsing of the Western church i wouldn’t worry about canonical purity! Far… Read more »
Obviously all church music including hymns is, like all music, a subjective thing. As a church musician or minister with responsibility for music one has to discern the difference between complaints of preference and ones of genuine difficulty of access particularly for any congregational singing. For example there is a difference between someone complaining that you have chosen the “wrong” tune to “Love Divine” and people complaining that Hymns were hard to sing due to complex words, rhythms or range. We now have many different types of church music being adapted for congregational singing, some of which is less well… Read more »
There is one thought that has lingered in my mind about Hymns. For starters they certainly play an important part in Christian Worship. It is important to get good hymns into our churches, that reflect good doctrine. I like the Wesley Hymns for example, as there is good Doctrine in these hymns, we sing his hymns in my own church the Roman Catholic Church. I cannot help thinking that a Hymn Book is a Theology Book of the Church, in that people learn their Theology from the Hymns, and in that regard a Hymn Book can be a teacher of… Read more »
That is absolutely right Jonathan. However some of Wesley’s hymns (and others) are so full of theology that they are virtually unsingable! There is a place, I think, for both hymns and songs with ‘heavy’ content and ones of simple devotion.
In an essay I wrote as an ordinand, I applied the term ‘insidious theology’ to hymns. Very often, I think, we sing hymns (old and new) without noticing the theology behind the words. One very popular worship song tends to bring people up with a shock as they sing the second verse and realise what they are singing. That can open a good discussion about theology and belief, and I’ve run a discussion group using hymns in that way.
“The wrath of God was satisfied”?
A lot of interesting theological and pastoral reflection here. A wide variety of practice and different understandings. But alas the number being confirmed shrinks more and more and the number of children and teenagers in our churches ( with some exceptions) is small.As in many areas of C of E life we simply muddle through without as far as I can see much theological direction. We become more fragmented. I find it disheartening and I think others do, but I can’t unfortunately see any likelihood of anything much being done about it.
The catechumenate model of staged initiation rites was commended liturgically in 2005 as CW: Rites on the Way; followed later by the Pilgrim course designed to integrate with it. Yet despite the uptake of the Pilgrim course, is anyone using these rites? They represent a radical challenge to our inherited way(s!) of doing things, and 20 years ago I for one could not see a sufficiently large gap between Church and society to justify going down this road. But that was then and this is now. Any thoughts?
Totally agree Perry. Unless there is a positive intention to welcome and provide for families and their children the current pattern will continue. Funding needs to be provided to train family and children’s workers, and to appoint them to churches, who need to see this ministry as the priority. Sadly too many congregations bemoan the lack of children but are unwilling or unable to change.
What is the point of confirming adults who are transferring from another Christian denomination? When I was confirmed into the C of E, having been a professing Christian for some 20 years, I felt I was acting out a lie and betraying my whole Christian background. My parents obviously thought so too, because they disowned me. I have spoken to others with a history as e.g. faithful Methodists or Baptists who have felt similarly. We really need to be more ecumenical.