The phrase that leapt out at me from Colin Coward’s posting was: “if I were still allowed to preach…” I am flabbergasted and very saddened – for the Church as well as for him – that he isn’t.
Indeed James H, and FrDavid. However, let’s also remeber the Church of England forbids any anglican priest married to a same sex partner to officiate in any way in England. So, for example, functioning clergy of Scotland or the US cannot preach, celebrate Communion, or even take Matins in England if they are married to a person of the same sex. Such clergy, in a sense, are then ‘out of Communion’ with the Church of England.
BUT apart from despairing here about this unjust situation what do people do?
Dave, you are making an assumption that I don’t have a licence or PTO because I married my partner. That is not true. Let me put the truth on record. Twenty-five years ago in the diocese of Southwark I had a PTO from Bishop Tom Butler who had been sent to Southwark with, as part of his brief, a requirement that he “clean up” the number of actively, openly gay clergy in the diocese. My PTO needed to be renewed. I was an activist, having founded Changing Attitude by then. I was called for an interview with Bishop Tom. The… Read more »
Bob, this is a difficult question to answer because many denominations are highly decentralised. Individual congregations are often enabled to decide for themselves their attitude to same-sex marriage. Congregations may have a local practice which differs from national teaching. In my own area of rural Wiltshire, then as an openly married Church of England Licensed Lay Minister I have been invited to preach and lead worship in local Baptist, Methodist, and United Reformed Church services, most commonly to fill gaps during their vacancies. For the Baptist Church my husband David and I ran a series of services where we would… Read more »
Thanks Bob, one thing should have said is that whilst there may be a difference in detail between how ordained and lay ministers are treated, I think the huge variability in practise is common to both.
Many decades ago, there was a habit of college Christian unions leading services at nearby village churches. I was once volunteered to preach the sermon. it was, I think, a small Methodist church. No problem. At Manchester, at the student interdenominational church on campus, I once gave the sermon at the main Sunday service. No problem. I was, of course, nowhere near being ordained or having any authority. I cringe looking back at the naive nonsense i spoke on both occasions, but it all helps in future careers. At what point does giving the main talk at the main Sunday… Read more »
I was writing a piece a few weeks ago in which I alluded to the pastoral wisdom of Brother Cadfael. His wisdom comes out in the TV shows, but it goes a lot deeper in the books, in my opinion. Thanks to Mark Clavier for a very enjoyable piece.
I’ve learned a lot from the Brother Cadfael books in terms of spirituality and pastoral wisdom. But the TV series was not a patch on the books, and Derek Jacobi lacks the robustness and faith in God’s intervention which Cadfael has in the books. They can also be read as models of literary style.
But why on earth not set them as pastoralia textbooks? It’s a shame Mark Clavier didn’t feel able to do that. I’m sure the students would have got more out of them than many more serious books, as Clavier suggests.
And me. There was an elderly scholar at Wycliffe Hall – I can’t remember his name – who used to say that theological education was incomplete without copious reading of fiction and drama. There’s a whole education in Lord of the Rings alone.
Back in the day my spiritual director/confessor came around the corner just as I was about to go into SPCK with a book token burning a hole in my pocket. Blocking the doorway with his arm, he said, “No, no, no, Fr! Go into WH Smiths and spend it on a good novel, it’ll be far better for you and for those who have to listen to you.”
Kate Keates
1 day ago
A very high standard of writing from Michelle Burns
Fr Dean
1 day ago
Well there you have it; bishop’s staff meetings are more concerned with tidbits of gossip about who is sleeping with whom than the business of safeguarding. I’m not in the least surprised that it is the case, just that someone has had the temerity to go public. I recently shared with a police officer that the CofE was the gossipiest organisation I’d ever worked for and she was surprised by that statement. As an out gay man I think most of the senior clergy that I came across assumed that because I was open about my sexuality that necessarily it… Read more »
I remember vividly being asked by a theological college to be an external interviewer on the panel charged with making a key appointment. The candidates were to give a mock teaching session to an assembled group of staff and students, and a recently appointed suffragan Bishop from the Diocese in which the college was located arrived to take his place on the interview panel. Said person is now a Diocesan. In front of all of us (except the candidates), some of whom he did not know, he proceeded to greet the students (female and male) from his Diocese with the… Read more »
The phrase that leapt out at me from Colin Coward’s posting was: “if I were still allowed to preach…” I am flabbergasted and very saddened – for the Church as well as for him – that he isn’t.
That struck me as well. It is a disgrace if he is banned from preaching the love of God in a church where hatred and prejudice is freely allowed.
Indeed James H, and FrDavid. However, let’s also remeber the Church of England forbids any anglican priest married to a same sex partner to officiate in any way in England. So, for example, functioning clergy of Scotland or the US cannot preach, celebrate Communion, or even take Matins in England if they are married to a person of the same sex. Such clergy, in a sense, are then ‘out of Communion’ with the Church of England.
BUT apart from despairing here about this unjust situation what do people do?
Dave, you are making an assumption that I don’t have a licence or PTO because I married my partner. That is not true. Let me put the truth on record. Twenty-five years ago in the diocese of Southwark I had a PTO from Bishop Tom Butler who had been sent to Southwark with, as part of his brief, a requirement that he “clean up” the number of actively, openly gay clergy in the diocese. My PTO needed to be renewed. I was an activist, having founded Changing Attitude by then. I was called for an interview with Bishop Tom. The… Read more »
Could you please clarify something for me. Is it the case that Mr Coward would be allowed to preach in a denomination that accepted same sex marriage?
Bob, this is a difficult question to answer because many denominations are highly decentralised. Individual congregations are often enabled to decide for themselves their attitude to same-sex marriage. Congregations may have a local practice which differs from national teaching. In my own area of rural Wiltshire, then as an openly married Church of England Licensed Lay Minister I have been invited to preach and lead worship in local Baptist, Methodist, and United Reformed Church services, most commonly to fill gaps during their vacancies. For the Baptist Church my husband David and I ran a series of services where we would… Read more »
Thanks for your reply Simon. There do seem to be a lot of local arrangements.
Thanks Bob, one thing should have said is that whilst there may be a difference in detail between how ordained and lay ministers are treated, I think the huge variability in practise is common to both.
Many decades ago, there was a habit of college Christian unions leading services at nearby village churches. I was once volunteered to preach the sermon. it was, I think, a small Methodist church. No problem. At Manchester, at the student interdenominational church on campus, I once gave the sermon at the main Sunday service. No problem. I was, of course, nowhere near being ordained or having any authority. I cringe looking back at the naive nonsense i spoke on both occasions, but it all helps in future careers. At what point does giving the main talk at the main Sunday… Read more »
When God speaks!
I was writing a piece a few weeks ago in which I alluded to the pastoral wisdom of Brother Cadfael. His wisdom comes out in the TV shows, but it goes a lot deeper in the books, in my opinion. Thanks to Mark Clavier for a very enjoyable piece.
I’ve learned a lot from the Brother Cadfael books in terms of spirituality and pastoral wisdom. But the TV series was not a patch on the books, and Derek Jacobi lacks the robustness and faith in God’s intervention which Cadfael has in the books. They can also be read as models of literary style.
But why on earth not set them as pastoralia textbooks? It’s a shame Mark Clavier didn’t feel able to do that. I’m sure the students would have got more out of them than many more serious books, as Clavier suggests.
Janet, I’m sure there are many people like me who have been far more formed by reading fiction than formal theology.
And me. There was an elderly scholar at Wycliffe Hall – I can’t remember his name – who used to say that theological education was incomplete without copious reading of fiction and drama. There’s a whole education in Lord of the Rings alone.
Back in the day my spiritual director/confessor came around the corner just as I was about to go into SPCK with a book token burning a hole in my pocket. Blocking the doorway with his arm, he said, “No, no, no, Fr! Go into WH Smiths and spend it on a good novel, it’ll be far better for you and for those who have to listen to you.”
A very high standard of writing from Michelle Burns
Well there you have it; bishop’s staff meetings are more concerned with tidbits of gossip about who is sleeping with whom than the business of safeguarding. I’m not in the least surprised that it is the case, just that someone has had the temerity to go public. I recently shared with a police officer that the CofE was the gossipiest organisation I’d ever worked for and she was surprised by that statement. As an out gay man I think most of the senior clergy that I came across assumed that because I was open about my sexuality that necessarily it… Read more »
As an ordinand I was told that ‘confidential’ meant ‘confidential within the college’. Which of course meant ‘not confidential at all’.
That’s a new one on me! I’ve heard ‘Confidential in the CofE means only telling one person at a time’.
I remember vividly being asked by a theological college to be an external interviewer on the panel charged with making a key appointment. The candidates were to give a mock teaching session to an assembled group of staff and students, and a recently appointed suffragan Bishop from the Diocese in which the college was located arrived to take his place on the interview panel. Said person is now a Diocesan. In front of all of us (except the candidates), some of whom he did not know, he proceeded to greet the students (female and male) from his Diocese with the… Read more »