Thinking Anglicans

GAFCON: The Future Has Arrived

GAFCON has issued a communiqué: The Future Has Arrived

Some initial reports and responses:

Church TimesGafcon letter declares that it is the Communion now, minus Canterbury and all related ‘Instruments’

The Living Church: Analysis: GAFCON Creates Global Anglican Communion

Anglican Communion Office: A Pastoral Letter from the Secretary General of the Anglican Communion

Andrew McGowan:  NO, THE “GLOBAL SOUTH” HAS NOT LEFT THE ANGLICAN COMMUNION

Anglican Church of Canada: Pastoral statement from the Primate and Metropolitans of the Anglican Church of Canada concerning the Anglican Communion 

Update

Church of Ireland: Archbishops’ statement on the Church of Ireland and the Anglican Communion

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Jonathan Jamal
Jonathan Jamal
1 month ago

As I have always understood it as a former Anglican now a Roman Catholic, Anglican Identity and Authority rested as set out in the 16th Century by Richard Hooker on the threefold Authority of Scripture, Tradition and Reason, and not on Sola Scriptora alone, so it makes the position of Gafcon quite un Anglican and if that exalt the Bible as the Supreme and only Source of Authority and lay aside Tradition and Reason can they still be called Anglicans? or have they departed from Anglicanism and become full blooded Protestants? Jonathan

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Jonathan Jamal
1 month ago

C.S. Lewis was very much in the tradition of Hooker when he wrote: “The human qualities of the raw materials show through. Naivety, error, contradiction, even (as in the cursing Psalms) wickedness are not removed. The total result is not “the Word of God” in the sense that every passage, in itself, gives impeccable science or history. It carries the Word of God; and we (under grace, with attention to tradition and to interpreters wiser than ourselves, and with the use of such intelligence and learning as we may have) receive that word from it not by using it as… Read more »

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Tony Bellows
1 month ago

Fantastic passage. Which of Lewis’s works does it come from?

Matthew
Matthew
Reply to  Simon Bravery
1 month ago

Agreed, that’s a great passage! I believe it’s from C S Lewis’ Reflections on the Psalms.

Andy
Andy
Reply to  Matthew
1 month ago

pp111-112 in my edition

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Simon Bravery
1 month ago

C. S. Lewis, Reflections on the Psalms (London: Wyman & Sons, Ltd, 1958)

Jim Pratt
Jim Pratt
Reply to  Jonathan Jamal
1 month ago

Jonathan, To treat all three as equally authoritative is an oversimplification of Hooker. It is really Scripture, interpreted in light of (or with the aid of) Tradition and Reason. So Scripture is primary, but not (as with Sola Sciptura) standing alone and in a vacuum. Gafcon is departing somewhat, eliminating Reason but retaining Tradition. (“translated, read, preached, taught and obeyed in its plain and canonical sense, respectful of the church’s historic and consensual reading”). Not quite Sola Scriptura, but not quite Anglican either. The other un-Anglican aspect is setting up the 2008 Jerusalem Declaration as a “confession of faith”. Anglicanism… Read more »

Tobias Haller
Reply to  Jim Pratt
1 month ago

And the removal of Reason is fatal to their cause. Hooker makes reason essential:

Unto the word of God… we do not add reason as a supplement of any maim or defect therein, but as a necessary instrument, without which we could not reap by the Scripture’s perfection that fruit and benefit which it yieldeth… If knowledge were possible without discourse of natural reason, why should none be found capable thereof but only men; nor men till such time as they come unto ripe and full ability to work by reasonable understanding? 

— Lawes III.viii.10

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Jim Pratt
1 month ago

Indeed. The Articles have never had the status of the Augsburg Confession and other Lutheran Confessional documents, or the Westminster Confession. And they are not part of the Constitution of some Anglican provinces. Subscription to the Articles was modified in the 1860’s and following the report of the 1960”s we have evolved the Declaration of Assent which talks of having borne witness in a historical sense. Gone are the days when ordinands read their Bicknell. I doubt they figure hardly at all in present theological courses. Actually as a church historian I think it’s a pity so many ordinands (… Read more »

Pax
Pax
Reply to  Jonathan Jamal
1 month ago

Where is Hooker’s position (or what is perhaps a C19 take on it) set out as foundational for Anglican identity, in any official formulary?
Articles VI, XX and XXXIV seem to me to tell a different story about the relationship between Scripture, Tradition and Reason in foundational Anglican theology.
In practise, I have always felt that the elevation of Tradition and Reason (let alone ‘Lived Experience’) in theological schemata has the function of undermining Scripture.

Jim Pratt
Jim Pratt
Reply to  Pax
1 month ago

Art. XXXIV has nothing to do with Scripture (“Tradition” there referring to the liturgical history of the Church). Art. VI and XX give ultimate priority to Scripture, but do not say anything about how Scripture is to be read, interpreted, or understood, although XX could be used to justify a literal interpretation.

Hooker has no “authority” nor any official status, but is descriptive of the Anglican approach of the Elizabethan era, and the church has continued to find it useful.

Pax
Pax
Reply to  Jim Pratt
1 month ago

Except that these traditions and ceremonies must not be ‘repugnant to the Word of God’. Which again seems to give Scripture a governing role over ‘Tradition’ in all its forms, which, it seems to me, encompasses liturgy too.

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Pax
1 month ago

In general, the idea of some 3 source notion in Hooker is an early 20th century invention. Hooker speaks of scripture as of prime authority. Tradition is pretty much what we mean by the word. Reason is closer to the doctrine of creation and our capacity to understand — not an individualized preference idea, post Kant. One would search in vain for any appeal to “three-source Hooker” across the centuries that separate him and modernity.

Jonathan Jamal
Jonathan Jamal
Reply to  Pax
1 month ago

Hooker’s Position on Scripture Tradition and Reason can be found in his Book “Law and Revelation” The subtitle of this book is Richard Hooker and his writings it is edited by Raymond Chapman and published by Canterbury Press. My late mother gave me a copy of this book which I still have in my Home Library, In Hooker’s writings contained in this Book, there will be his treatment of Scripture, Tradition and Reason. Commentators on this Site will find this a very interesting and informative book to Read as it has had a great influence on the development of Anglicanism… Read more »

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Pax
1 month ago

In The Laws of Ecclesiastical Polity, Hooker articulates a layered approach to authority in the Church of England: “What Scripture doth plainly deliver, to that the first place both of credit and obedience are due; the next whereunto, is what any man can necessarily conclude by force of Reason; after this, the voice of the Church succeedeth.” — Book V, Chapter 8, The Laws of Ecclesiastical Polity Hence (a) scripture (b) reason (c) tradition. He continues: “That which the Church by her ecclesiastical authority shall probably think and define to be true or good, must in congruity of reason overrule… Read more »

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Pax
1 month ago

Article VI – Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation “Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man…” Supports Hooker’s primacy of Scripture: Scripture is the foundation for salvation and doctrine. Limits sola scriptura: It allows for practices not explicitly in Scripture, provided they don’t contradict it—opening space for tradition and reason Article XX – Of the Authority of the Church “The Church hath power to decree rites or ceremonies, and authority in controversies of faith: and yet… Read more »

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Tony Bellows
1 month ago

Perhaps I could commend some of the essays in “The Study of Anglicanism ” ed by Stephen Sykes and John Booty 2nd edition SPCK / Fortress 1988.esp part 3 Authority and Method and part 4 Anglican Standards.It originally grew from a correspondence I had with Prof Sykes following my return from Rome as Anglican scholar at the Venerable. It was revised for the 1988 Lambeth Conference. I don’t think it has as much influence in theological education as Stephen hoped, at least in England. A pity really when you consider the eminence of some of the contributors.

Allan Sheath
Allan Sheath
Reply to  Perry Butler
1 month ago

Note to self: must revisit! “Mad Ireland hurt you into poetry” wrote Auden of Yeats. Similarly, the mantra that ‘we have no doctrines of our own’ hurt Stephen Sykes into writing on Anglican identity. There was a further edition in ’98, but much has happened since then. It’s a depressing thought, but given where we are today, would such a book now even be possible? The essays on our history, one by Dr Perry Butler, would be obvious exceptions.

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Perry Butler
1 month ago

Thanks – will look up. “Bishops on the Bible” is also good.

Richard
Richard
Reply to  Jonathan Jamal
1 month ago

When I hear and read ACNA, I think “Sola Epistulae Pauli.”

Nuno Torre
Nuno Torre
1 month ago

Thanks to the coverage.
Meanwhile, this is not new. +Sarah choice for AbC was just the right excuse to make what has been in the writing since 2008 at least.
Time will tell the effect on CofE, even though I believe most of the conservatives still inside CofE will simply to quietly depart like they’ve been doing since the early 10’s. There will not to be a big schism by itself. The mainline Anglican Communion will effectively to be smaller, but that would to be expected ou of this all.

Roger Young
Roger Young
1 month ago

This may not be the most insightful comment, but I can’t help but wonder why or how this statement really changes things. The GAFCON churches (or whatever they call themselves) have either said these things before or have behaved as if they were already in effect. There is no end to things they disagree with or in which want their own way and appeasing them is impossible. Even where such efforts have been made, they don’t seem to matter. And declaring that Anglicans believe-and are required-to believe in Biblical inerrancy is not Anglican in the least. Then there is the… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Roger Young
1 month ago

GAFCON doesn’t believe in bible inerrancy. To quote ‘ the Holy Bible, “translated, read, preached, taught and obeyed in its plain and canonical sense, respectful of the church’s historic and consensual reading” (Jerusalem Declaration, Article II), which reflects Article VI of the 39 Articles of Religion.’ In this it is more Anglican than the C of E in terms of church tradition. But you are right the Jerusalem declaration predates the appointment of a woman archbishop by 17 years and their latest announcement has nothing to do with fact that she’s a woman and everything to do with LLF as they… Read more »

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

It was the word used by the Chairman of GAFCON. Perhaps the GAFCON Primates are not all on the same page. Nor on the issue of women priests/bishops I expect.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

And reason?

Wester
Wester
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Interesting. So the archbishop does not refer to the Bible when he speaks of the ‘inerrant word of God’?

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

‘GAFCON doesn’t believe in bible inerrancy.’

You are mistaken. See section three of their statement:

‘3. We cannot continue to have communion with those who advocate the revisionist agenda, which has abandoned the inerrant word of God as the final authority and overturned Resolution I.10, of the 1998 Lambeth Conference.’

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
1 month ago

Thank you – because their Jerusalem statement on scripture gives no more than the 39 Articles but I have always suspected they were more fundamentalist than that.

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
1 month ago

I took it to refer specifically to Human Sexuality and Lambeth 1.10 which is still the official C of E’s position on human sexuality, but I don’t know, The Jerusalem Statement on which GAFCON is founded does not mention biblical inerrancy and on secondary issues such women in leadership, different provinces take different positions. The Jerusalem Statement sounds very anglican to me, so definately worth clarifying what they mean by ‘inerrant word of God’. Perhaps in matters of salvation?

David Runcorn
David Runcorn
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Adrian – “Lambeth 1.10 … is still the official C of E’s position on human sexuality”. This is misleading, firstly, because it misrepresents the relationship of Lambeth Conference resolutions to individual Anglican Provinces. But secondly, as you have surely noticed, the CofE, nearly thirty years on, has commended prayers of thanksgiving for use in public worship to celebrate and prayer for committed LGBT+ relationships (the word ‘blessing’ is contested in this contest, but the idea what we publicly give thanks to God for as good does not include his blessing reflects much that is self contradictory in our present contorted… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  David Runcorn
1 month ago

Isn’t this the issue? Lambeth 1.10 represented the settled position of the Anglican Communion on human sexually. and the C of E has decided to break it. This is the consequence, contorted processes, division. A reformation 2.0 is needed and I think that will happen, is happening.

Jo B
Jo B
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Lambeth 1.10 represented what enough of the bishops present at the conference were willing to agree to, no more, no less. It’s no more “settled” than was the 1920 conference’s condemnation of contraception. No amount of “reformation 2.0” will force LGBT Christians back into the closet nor into celibacy.

David Runcorn
David Runcorn
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

You are mistaken. Lambeth conferences are advisory. Their resolutions are not binding or fixed in time. Like other provinces the Church of England has the freedom to declare its own mind on issues. A Lambeth conference resolutions in 1908 and 1930 totally condemned artifical contraception. Sex (in marriage) was only for procreation. The inability to abstain at other times was a ‘weakness of moral will’. By 1958 Lambeth resolutions were supporting it. I presume you welcome this development of thought? I agree we need reforming – but not in the way you think.

Victor I
Victor I
Reply to  David Runcorn
1 month ago

Is it safe, then, to say that there are no dogmas (unchangeable truths) in the Anglican Church? If there are, what are they?

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

There is no legislative authority in the Anglican Communion above the level of the national or provincial church. Lambeth conference resolutions have influence, but they are not binding on member churches. You may wish it were the case, but it is not.

Nicholas Henshall
Nicholas Henshall
1 month ago

As many serious theologians have pointed out (and David Bentley Hart does it particularly well), the idea of biblical inerrancy is unknown to the church fathers (who were quite clear that scripture had many overlapping senses) and to Christian tradition as a whole. It essentially developed as a reaction to the perceived threat to faith posed by the Enlightenment, and – as such things tend to be – very much an indication of insecurity rather than assurance. Above all, the Bible itself never claims to be without error, and we don’t need to look far to demonstrate that. Every time… Read more »

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Nicholas Henshall
1 month ago

St Augustine did not believe in scriptural inerrancy. He said believing in inerrancy makes Christians appear stupid and foolish. Or words to that effect.

Martin Hughes
Martin Hughes
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
1 month ago

He absolutely did, see Letter 82:3 to Jerome, in the most completely explicit terms. If anything within the Canon seems wrong it must be because you’re not understanding it, because of mistranslation or because of manuscript corruption. So he might let me say that ‘women keep silent’ is an interpolation but he would not let Jerome think that Peter had not misbehaved at Antioch

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Martin Hughes
1 month ago

OK, you are obviously more knowledgeable, but I was referring particularly to his remarks on science.

https://www.theichthus.com/blog/2010/09/augustine-on-faith-and-science

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Goodwin
Martin Hughes
Martin Hughes
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
1 month ago

He says that some Christians may say mistaken things, very much not not that scripture may be mistaken. His specific remarks on that point are without any reservation

Matthew
Matthew
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
1 month ago

I’m sorry but I think St Augustine was talking about the importance of correct understanding of Scripture there, I don’t think he was questioning inerrancy.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Matthew
1 month ago

the article i linked to may provide a context – there are some who still believe in the 7 day creation myth, literally, and they need to be taught the bible should not be taken so literally.

Where inerrancy starts and correct understanding ends is beyond my theological pay grade!

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Matthew
1 month ago

I’m sorry, but it is not so easily dismissed, and much has already been written. Take the creation story. We all know it is not scientific. It is not meant to be scientific (so we are told). Yet many modern day Christians believe it to be scientific. So when I say ‘we all know’, no we don’t ALL know. These modern day Christians may not be in the orbit of TA readers, but they exist. What does inerrancy and literalism mean to them? Did St Augustine believe in the scientific truth of the creation story? How do we communicate with… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Goodwin
Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
1 month ago

In a letter to St Jerome (Letter 82, To Jerome, c. 405 AD), Augustine wrote:

“I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error.”

He continues:

“If I do find anything in these books which seems contrary to truth, I decide that either the manuscript is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning, or I myself have failed to understand it.”

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Tony Bellows
1 month ago

Would he say that today? How does that fit into his views I referenced above? Are his own writings consistent and without error?

Nicholas Henshall
Nicholas Henshall
1 month ago

And following on from my previous post, whilst I am very happy to affirm that “all scripture is God breathed”, in the first place let’s remember that Paul here is talking about the Old Testament as at this point the New Testament did not exist, and in the second that when Athanasius of Alexandria finally issued the definitive list of the canonical books of the New Testament in 367 AD, he insisted also on the authority of other books such as the Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache because he recognised that the New Testament Canon simply didn’t contain enough… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Nicholas Henshall
1 month ago

But Peter, in 2 Peter 3:14-16, classes Paul’s letters with ‘the other scriptures’. And Paul does, at some points in his letters, claim that he is writing what God has told him to write. Some will argue that these claims are later interpolations (there’s always someone arguing that about any verse they find inconvenient), but it does seem the claims to the inspiration of the New Testament are very early..

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Janet Fife
1 month ago

Yes but Peter does not classify his own letters as scripture. Assuming of course that 2 Peter is by Peter, something I would say is unlikely. I think it is a later misattribution and 2 Peter is in fact the second letter which Jude says he was interrupting his letter to write.

rerum novarum
rerum novarum
Reply to  Tony Bellows
1 month ago

But it’s a logically pointless argument. If you insist that scripture can only be classified as such by being identified in other scripture, of necessity you will end up with a chain in which the most recent scripture authorising others suffers from not itself having a later scripture authorising it, leading to the collapse of the whole chain. The inspiration, authority and recognition of scripture runs deeper than that.

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Janet Fife
1 month ago

But there is also the distinction which Paul himself makes in 1 Cor vii between ouk ego all’ ho kurios [not myself but the Lord] (v. 10) and ego lego oux ho kurios [I myself say, not the Lord] (v. 12).

Pax
Pax
Reply to  Tony Bellows
1 month ago

Is verse 12 not then ‘God-breathed’?

Michael M.
Michael M.
Reply to  Pax
1 month ago

Holy Spirit filled reason and tradition help us to infer when an interpolation has occurred – by Paul himself – and Paul has altered his true argument for the consumption of Roman officials reading en route.

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Pax
1 month ago

Perhaps so, but Paul is indicating a hierarchy of importance in terms of how one understands his teaching. I have always thought what is actually there is more important in understanding scripture than some a priori notion of inspiration which we bring to the text (often with implicit philosophical assumptions which are not examined critically enough).

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Nicholas Henshall
1 month ago

Yes, and one could mention Papias and Ireneaus as prior sources, but I don’t think this gets at the larger picture. You can skirmish over details. I suspect as the dust settles and the Anglican Communion resets–Welby saw this clearly in the offing–the major question will be how GAFCON and GSFA resolves the tensions over conciliar understandings (covenant) and the appeal to scripture and articles etc. The CofE will face into its own problems with greater attention, and less concern with what the Anglican Communion is and how it continues its life. Its not like the Instruments are functional now,… Read more »

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

I should add. Poggo’s letter is fairly realistic/irenic re Gafcon and GSFA. One might cynically conclude he is trying to hold on to the vestigial instruments, or at least his own (ACC). Mention is made of the Nairobi-Cairo papers, and now by the ABC to-be as well (“I need to study these”). We shall have to see where all this goes. The Anglican Communion is “under construction” as Welby (1 “instrument”) ACC (2nd “instrument”, Primates Meeting (3rd Instrument) all agree. Which in turn affects the Lambeth Conference every-ten-year (maybe) confab.

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

Justin Welby’s views are history. And were never very coherent vis a vis the Anglican Communion anyway. The Nairobi Cairo proposals are key to the future of the Anglican Communion. The stuff from GAFCON is nothing new, as others have already commented here. Whatever they might say, the reality is that they are setting up a new structure which is separate from the Anglican Communion as currently arranged. It might be different after ACC19 but if they don’t attend, they won’t have a say in the matter.

Chris
Chris
Reply to  Nicholas Henshall
1 month ago

Sometimes I feel as though – and this might be odd, perhaps heretical, but I do feel it would be useful – it might not be more useful to include a much wider range of books in canon than typically is, especially for early church texts. As you mention, texts like the Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache were known and read by early church leaders, and books like the Acts of Paul and Thecla were incredibly widely read (despite, apparently, the author being tracked down and confessing that amazingly he was not Paul). They were rejected for certain reasons,… Read more »

John Bunyan
John Bunyan
Reply to  Chris
1 month ago

Thank you for this interesting contribution which I have skimmed but must read again. Some Christian churches do have more in their New Testament than most churches, including I think the Ethiopian Orthodox. (And, by the way, while the Articles say that we don’t ground anything on anything in the OT Apocrypha, we do read from its books in church, especially Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus. They ARE part of our C.of E. Bible – and even the “Immortal Dreamer”, my namesake, was not unfamiliar with them.) Cranmer had more than 100 passages from the Apocrypha in his BCP daily lectionary but… Read more »

Martin Hughes
Martin Hughes
Reply to  John Bunyan
1 month ago

The Ethiopians canonise the Enoch texts, mentioned in the Epistle of Jude, which we might find a bit indigestible

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Martin Hughes
1 month ago

And I think don’t include Revelation. The Orthodox Churches have Revelation in the Canon but it is never read liturgically.

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
Reply to  Chris
1 month ago

Of course Jude picks up 2 non-Canonical sources, and does just the part of them quoted or referred to become canonical? “Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: ‘Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all…’” “But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses…” Of course not many people read Jude, which is probably why this issues does not arise. Once Jude includes those quotations, they become part of the canon of Scripture, even if their original sources are not.  This invites… Read more »

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Nicholas Henshall
1 month ago

I am just jumping in here, Nicholas, to say thank you. I have never read the Shepherd of Hermas, and I should!

John Davies
John Davies
Reply to  Kate Keates
1 month ago

I suspect I won’t be the only person in the pews, Kate, who’s never heard of it, let alone read it. However, recalling the wisdom of Father Brown, in the very first story (was it ‘The Seven Stars’?) he spotted that Flambeau was a false (or fake) priest when the latter railed against ‘Reason’. This is where I’ve had so much trouble with various charismatic speakers in the past, who exalted the irrational, or worse, un-rational at the expense of common sense. Faith is a balancing act, like so much which it incorporates. We all have to remember we can… Read more »

Pam Wilkinson
Pam Wilkinson
Reply to  Nicholas Henshall
1 month ago

If “God breathed” mankind’s efforts to make sense of the divine, did He only breathe those efforts which finally, after much deliberation, made it into the canon? And just “Christian” ones? What about so much else – from Gilgamesh to the Koran and beyond. God holding his breath?

Martin Hughes
Martin Hughes
Reply to  Nicholas Henshall
1 month ago

He didn’t insist on the authority of non-canonical books, he says that they are generally heretical. He specifically exempts Hermas and Didache because of their long standing popularity, but he does not accord them authority on the canonical level

Anglican in Exile
Anglican in Exile
1 month ago

There’s something rather distasteful and unedifying about a group of Primates posturing like this because a female has challenged their waning grasp on power. What’s very sad is that this predictable parting of the ways could so easily have been done with grace, generosity and kindness rather than pomposity. Many of us carry such good memories of time spent in those Provinces and with their people. I guess 2000 years of the Christian Faith have taught us very little about the diversity and abundance of the ever emerging Kingdom of God. Gafcon is of course dazzled and influenced by the… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Anglican in Exile
1 month ago

They seem to take the BCP more seriously than a lot of C of E churches and can make a good claim to be the rightful heirs of Anglicanism.

Chris
Chris
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Hey, the BCP doesn’t automatically equal GAFCON, you know. It’s not as if evangelical, low-church Common Worship churches in the C of E are bastions of equality and progressiveness.

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Chris
1 month ago

No it doesn’t. But many low churches in the C if E consider themselves Christian first and only when pushed, Anglicans,

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

But wouldn’t all Christians, including Roman Catholics, call themselves Christian first? Anything else is ridiculous.

I realise there is a lot of ridiculousness in the world.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Some of the clergy perhaps, on the “best boat to fish from ” principle. Less so the older laity, though youngsters sit loose to denominational ties and go where there is enthusiasm, where their friends go, where they can play in the worship band. Looking back the transformation of C of E evangelicalism is one of the most marked features of recent C of E history. Gone are evangelical parishes, BCP, north end, black scarf and a parochial pastoral model ( open occasional offices etc) Yes I think much modern evangelicalism is sectarian in ethos and apart from building up… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Perry Butler
1 month ago

Bible is still in the pews though, read, taught, preached, studied. That is the foundation of Anglicanism.

Too old to genuflect
Too old to genuflect
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Lord, have mercy!!

Roger Young
Roger Young
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

What does it mean to “take the BCP more seriously?” What version or edition of the BCP? 1549, 1552, 1662, the Scottish Prayer Book, etc? What about more recent editions? Most National Churches have produced their own Prayer Books in the last hundred or so years. Not every African/Gafcon church uses the same Prayer Book. In fact, American ACNA now have their own new one. Do you mean the rubrics, the liturgies, the formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles, etc? How would you define “seriously?” The BCP says nothing about the issues they consider crucial. Women’s ordination, LGBTQ people, and “sola scriptura”… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Roger Young
1 month ago

You need to read the Jerusalem Statement, No particular church has devine right to exist. That’s the warning here (and in Revelation).

Roger Young
Roger Young
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

How does this apply to my response about Prayer Books?

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Roger Young
1 month ago

It’s a conclusion to my original post, see thread.

Michael M.
Michael M.
Reply to  Roger Young
1 month ago

My experience is slim but I didn’t think HTB promote daily matins & evensong in every parish and place, which will take a rota of practised believers but not a priest. That and the flowers used to be the C of E strength.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Anglican in Exile
1 month ago

Sola Scriptura is correct because Scripture says so. Apparently.

It doesn’t take any Hebrew or Greek scholar to prise apart various verses to realise that Sola Scriptura and inerrancy is nonsense. I’m not even sure what Sola Scriptura means. Literalism? universe created in 7 days? Confusion over who and when first attended the empty tomb?

I always read it as ‘inspired by God’ or as Nicholas said, ‘God breathed’.

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
1 month ago

I haven’t a clue what “inspired by God” or “God breathed” literally means.

Matthew
Matthew
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
1 month ago

I think inerrancy does not mean literalism. It means that the Scripture is without error in its intended sense, which may or may not be literal depending on the context.

Pat ONeill
Pat ONeill
Reply to  Matthew
1 month ago

Ay, there’s the rub: What is its “intended sense”? As any scholar of literature will tell you, determining the author’s intent is difficult if not impossible (and how much more so when the “author” is said to be divine).

Jim Pratt
Jim Pratt
Reply to  Anglican in Exile
1 month ago

Posturing tends to be the way of schismatics, because it is as much about ego (if not more) or money than it is about doctrine. In my own diocese, when ANiC split, there was not a lot of fanfare. Those leaving had already lost their battles at diocesan synod. They knew that property was held in the name of the Bishop, and that they had no claim to it. In the case of one parish, those who left continued to work side-by-side in the parish’s day centre for the homeless with those who remained, and both congregations supported the ministry… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

The Church of Canada which has 60,000 members and is losing them at a rate of 9% a year. Maybe this will be their last Archbishop. They have lots to teach the C of E.

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Don’t worry, Adrian – we have never been naive enough to think that the C of E looks to us to learn anything.

Roger Young
Roger Young
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

What is this rather sarcastic remark coming out of left field supposed to mean?

Nigel Jones
Nigel Jones
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

What if faithfulness to God does in fact lead to the disappearance of the institutional church? It is theoretically possible that this is the case. So the argument that the more thriving churches must be theologically more sound doesn’t persuade me one jot.

J C Fisher
J C Fisher
Reply to  Nigel Jones
1 month ago

Thank you. If one thinks of all the secular “post-Christians” of the past hundred years, there’s a VERY good case to be made that they are closer to Jesus in ethos than the average “Christian” in 2025. If “God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham” [Matt 3:9], I think God can do perfectly well w/ post-Christians…

Last edited 1 month ago by J C Fisher
Ruairidh
Ruairidh
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Yes indeed, our demographic data suggests the ‘last’ Anglican in Canada will disappear around 2040. However, What I think the Pastoral Statement from the Canadian Primate and Metropolitans ‘teaches’ is the value of relationships. Noteworthy is that two of signatories to the Canadian statement are considered very conservative here i.e. Archbishops David Edwards and Kerr-Wilson. There is the importance of long standing relationships with other national churches in the Communion–a great many of them still grappling, as we are, with a post-colonial context. There is the importance, in Canada anyway, of relationships with both women and the members of the… Read more »

Jo B
Jo B
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Better to serve faithfully and shrink than promote a false Gospel and grow.

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Someone on another thread (I can’t remember who) accused us of ‘losing the plot a long time ago’. I think it would be truer to say that the plot has changed and we haven’t been good at responding to that change. Our church (like most Christendom denominations) is well-designed for a Christendom situation, in which most residents in a given geographical area are Christian or nominally Christian. So what they need is not evangelisation but pastoral care. However, Christendom is now gone in most of our communities, and the church now finds itself in a mission situation in which the… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Tim Chesterton
Ruairidh
Ruairidh
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
1 month ago

Tim, I agree with much of what you note. However, this observation, “we haven’t even been good at doing it for our own children…” I think we can be too hard on ourselves in terms of how we have arrived where we are. There was a lot of good work done in the Canadian Church in the past decades in order that our children might have faith, to coin a phrase. However, the advance of secularism and the widespread acceptance of much what secularism means has been a formidable force. Secularism, in some arenas, and by comparison with the churches,… Read more »

Michael M.
Michael M.
Reply to  Ruairidh
1 month ago

Neither evangelising (as gift) nor pastoral care (read here about blunders) have had a general basis (with local exceptions) for some time as far as I could see. Once, liturgy in itself was a witness to the regulars as well as to passers by. In common with those many denominations that copy it, at the C of E one can’t point to something and say “that’s what we (genuinely) do”. Liturgy was supposed to call forth belief in Holy Spirit meanings for providential living, but recent and trendy church bosses have been downright explicit that they are sure it doesn’t,… Read more »

Jim Pratt
Jim Pratt
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
1 month ago

I second Tim’s assessment. Having come as a transplant from south of the border, I have found the ACoC in many areas stuck in the Victorian age and reluctant to change. But winds of change are blowing. Two dioceses have recently elected African-born bishops, one of them the first Francophone bishop in Canada. The emergence of a vibrant and autonomous indigenous church promises to offer many gifts to the settler church. Long known as the “Église anglaise”, the Diocese of Montreal now has worship or education taking place in at least 7 languages, and the fastest-growing parish worships in French… Read more »

Roger Young
Roger Young
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
1 month ago

This is helpful. As a priest of fifty years, we were never raised or taught to be “in mission” and our laity even less so. Even suggesting that they invite or bring people to church with them went nowhere. It was not polite. The issues Canadian Anglicans face have a lot to do with our past existence as a rather conservative, even stuffy, outpost of Britishness. Canada was once a bunch of English, conservative communities outside of Quebec or certain smaller enclaves. Even in cities we were the model of careful propriety in a churchgoing culture, along with other mainstream… Read more »

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Roger Young
1 month ago

Nowadays church services have to have some attraction, they are competing with other Sunday morning activities.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
1 month ago

Which is why we should think about the times of our services.

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Roger Young
1 month ago

Absolutely on the ball, Roger.

Simon Dawson
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Adrian, the Church in Canada does have lots to teach the C of E – about race relations, about reconciliation, about how to deal with the legacy of colonialism, about dealing with difference and trauma and pain.

https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/news/news-and-statements/archbishop-canterbury-apologises-indigenous-peoples-canada

There are many people in the wider Anglican community whose Christian spirituality has been shaped by dealing with post colonial issues like this. Some of them post on Thinking Anglicans.

If we in England have the humility to learn from their experience is an interesting question.

Last edited 1 month ago by Simon Dawson
Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

I’ve just checked this statistic and am not sure it’s accurate. The most recent statistics I could find show an average Sunday attendance of 58,871, a total number on parish rolls of 294,382, and a number of identifiable regular givers at 106,402 (see Appendix A of this report). Between 2017-2023 our average Sunday attendance declined by approximately 6% per year. Confusing ‘average Sunday attendance’ with ‘number of members’ is a rather basic error, I would think. Yes, the picture is not encouraging and I’ve addressed the probable causes in another post. But let’s at least get the numbers right, if… Read more »

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
1 month ago

Petty princes of the church playing politics.

Shamus
Shamus
1 month ago

One of Ely diocese’s link dioceses is Ruanda. Whether that can continue after this statement, I have little idea, but rather difficult I should think.

Ruairidh
Ruairidh
1 month ago

FYI. Linked is the Pastoral Statement from The Primate of the Anglican church of Canada ( and its metropolitans) dated Oct.18/25 (yesterday at time of commenting) on the GAFCON announcement. Pastoral statement from the Primate and Metropolitans of the Anglican Church of Canada concerning the Anglican Communion – The Anglican Church of Canada The Anglican Church of Canada looks forward to participating in the next gathering of the Primates’ Meeting, the next meeting of the Anglican Consultative Council, and the next Lambeth Conference. We rejoice in the appointment of Bishop Sarah Mullally as the next Archbishop of Canterbury and will warmly welcome… Read more »

Ruairidh
Ruairidh
1 month ago

oops, my bad, I see the statement from The Anglican Church of Canada is already in the line up. I first learned about it this morning while at Choral Communion at our Cathedral.

Too old to genuflect
Too old to genuflect
1 month ago

I hate to say it but now think that the Anglican Communion would be more honest, moral, and in line with the standards of the Gospel if Gafcon did go and do whatever it needs to do and leave the rest of us to follow our consciences.
ISIS is not the best exemplar of Islam and Gafcon is certainly not of Anglicanism…nor perhaps of Christianity.

Roger Young
Roger Young
1 month ago

One of our respondents took a seemingly negative view of the Anglican Church of Canada for its statistics and membership. The ACC is perceived as “liberal” and Canadians are easier to criticize, so it has become popular in some circles to use the Canadian Church as a kind of focus for what is perceived as the consequences of trying to be faithful in its context. The Canadian church has a different and unique history and geography, and Canada today is vastly different than in the past, which most critics are clueless about. And no church is perfect, but casting stones… Read more »

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Roger Young
1 month ago

I imagine the main reason the Anglican Church of Nigeria is growing is because the population of Nigeria is growing apace. Probably all churches in Nigeria are growing , the RC Church, the Pentecostals and Islam. I doubt new comers to the Nigerian Anglicanism are coming simply because of its teaching on homosexuality (I suspect polygamy is a more pressing issue). Churches grow and decline for a host of reasons as studies in the sociology of religion make clear. Nonconformity reached its peak in England before the 1st World War. Methodism was in decline well before it accepted same sex… Read more »

Charles Clapham
Charles Clapham
Reply to  Perry Butler
1 month ago

Yes, I think you are right Perry, at least for the last 25 or 30 years or so, church growth in Nigeria is largely about demographic growth, not about conversions (either from Islam or from indigenous religions). And since Muslims in Nigeria on average have higher fertility rates than Christians, the overall percentage of Christians in Nigeria is actually falling, even if it continues to increase in absolute terms. (There is good article summarising the data at https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1007/s13644-021-00450-5) I’m not sure therefore if there are any useful lessons that conservative Christians in the west can take from this – other… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Charles Clapham
Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Charles Clapham
1 month ago

Also compared to England and much of the secular west most Africans are naturally religious. Along with main stream denominations Nigeria hosts a myriad of Pentecostal and Independent Churches.It is rather easier to attract numbers to a Church than in most parts of indifferent England! When it comes to mission and evangelism the C of E faces a daunting task since the whole parochial system is based on a largely pastoral model which still sort of existed in my childhood in the 1950s.. Wesley had discovered people were slipping through the parochial net 300 years ago!

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Roger Young
1 month ago

See also Anglican Churches in North America, Scotland, Wales and New Zealand. All different and unique, but all in decline. Wake up!

Ruairidh
Ruairidh
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Yes, it is important for Christians to be woke! With regard to Anglican Churches in North America, context matters. The Anglican Church of Canada functions in a country that is secular–decidedly so in fact. ( e.g. link). Secularism/laicité, well underway when I was ordained in the 1970s, has changed the water on the beans immensely. The challenges to churches of all types has been immense as a result. ( see Tim Chesterton’s comment). ACNA, another North American Church, which has a presence in Canada, is something of a different creature. Its origin story is rooted in American culture wars. Women… Read more »

David Runcorn
David Runcorn
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

I hope you have read Tim Chesterton’s perceptive response to you on decline in Canada.

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  David Runcorn
1 month ago

The perception is the writing is on the wall. Theology matters which is one of the reasons LLF ran into the sand. A matter of particular interest to evangelicals is it not, so why misrepresent the failure of LLF as simply a legal matter? Amongst all this mockery of GAFCON, God is not mocked.

Jo B
Jo B
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Theology matters, and that indeed is why LLF failed – conservatives aren’t interested in theology, just in clinging to what they’ve already decided is true.

Last edited 1 month ago by Jo B
Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
1 month ago

Actually the historical and sociological evidence suggests theology isn’t a major factor in why churches grow or decline. ( The work of E g. Currie H McLeod ,Robin Gill etc) Other factors are usually more important.

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
1 month ago

Godsall writes, “they won’t have a say in the matter.”

This would be the “Anglican Communion” a la ACC19, one supposes.

One wonders if these (latterly appearing) notions are timing out in the face of the slow collapse of the CofE and the emergence of major groupings like the GSFA.

As stated above, we shall have to wait and see. The Nairobi-Cairo proposals alter the place of the ABC. A realistic change, and in line with the same realism of the former ABC.

Obviously things are in flux.

Last edited 1 month ago by Anglican Priest
Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

Thanks Chris. The Nairobi-Cairo proposals are here https://www.anglicancommunion.org/ecumenism/iascufo/the-nairobi-cairo-proposals.aspx and it’s worth noting that they are considered a beginning to the conversation, not the end. Also worth noting that in those proposals churches in the communion will remain bound together in four respects: “through their shared inheritance, mutual service, common counsel in conference, and historic connection with the See of Canterbury.” And whilst there is greater sharing of leadership of the various meetings and Instruments to reflect the way the Communion has changed, the personal and pastoral role of the Archbishop of Canterbury remains unchanged in the Communion. So I’m not… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Andrew Godsall
Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Andrew Godsall
1 month ago

They are having a retreat.

The communion is also ‘on retreat.’

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

Well. The bishops are on retreat.
A few things to observe. A Church is more than a few bishops making bullish statements.
How much have either GAFCON or GSFA consulted their synods and laity about these matters? Do the numbers actually match the bullish statements……? But even if they did…
Numbers aren’t everything. Never have been.

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Andrew Godsall
1 month ago

What is your actual point, beyond gain-saying? “A few bishops making bullish statements” — how is that suppoosed to be a serious statement about the GSFA? You give yourself away. “Numbers don’t mean anything.” Spoken as a retired cleric in a CofE struggling with its lack of numbers. Basic realities: The CofE is in serious decline It must tackle this The Anglican Communion is not the CofE The Anglican Communion is noting the situation re: the See of Canterbury, and the CofE, and it is evaluating its future functioning The previous ABC noted this reality The Cairo-Nairobi docs do the… Read more »

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

Christopher one of my roles in life before retirement was concerned with clergy training and selection. Perry Butler, who also comments here, was also involved in that selection work. He will also recall that in the selection process we would explore how much a candidate knew about the breadth of the CofE and the wider Church, including Anglican Communion affairs. In more recent years, since the ascendancy of HTB plants and the like, candidates show little knowledge of the CofE outside their own congregation, which is generally a gathered one, and almost no knowledge of the Communion. Whatever the future… Read more »

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Andrew Godsall
1 month ago

“Whatever the future shape of the Communion, the Church of England will obviously have to consider its own space and its relationship to other Provinces.”

I agree.

Best wishes in your concerns with the LGBT+ cause.

The wearying exchanges you engage in endlessly at the I. Paul website. I hope you can find a more fruitful avenue in retirement. Looks pointless, endless, ships passing in the night. Spiritually deadening.

God bless you in your endeavours in retirement.

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

And you in your retirement also Christopher

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Andrew Godsall
1 month ago

Many thanks, but I’m not retired. Running French Affaires, LLC, PhD students at Toronto, Theologian in Residence at my parish church, my new book “The Predestinate” just appeared (sorry for mentioning my publications), “Le Grand Voyage” in press production. Honing my “Sacred France” lecture series, and organizing sacred France retreats.

David James
David James
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

‘Those liberal minded Anglicans ……………a different kind of forgetfulness and arrogance’. I hope that I’m not forgetful and (certainly not) arrogant. I’m just confused at the never ending procession of twists and turns and weary of the same old arguments which are employed in opposition to any kind of progress in the way the Church relates to the real world in which people live, move and have their being

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  David James
1 month ago

Why is this written to me?

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
1 month ago

In his latest book, Richard Holloway contemplates the divisions amongst the world’s 10,000 religions and the historical violence which has existed when people have been convinced of their own ‘rightness’. Gafcon’s self-righteous posturing is nothing new and is simply the latest expression of people who pretend they know what God likes. Anglicanism has it’s ugly side. Such poison spreading throughout the Church is no different from the extreme venom spouted by the late Charlie Kirk. His murder was heinous. But his views, like those of Gafcon, can provoke extreme violence and hurt. Such religion has a lot to answer for.

Too old to genuflect
Too old to genuflect
Reply to  FrDavid H
1 month ago

Amen to that!

rerum novarum
rerum novarum
Reply to  FrDavid H
1 month ago

How can you say that other people are wrong without believing that you are right?

You see my point do you, David? When you denounce others for being wrongly convinced of their own ‘rightness’, that presumes that you know they are wrong … which involves you believing that you know what is right.

In other words, you are guilty of exactly what you are accusing them of.

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
Reply to  rerum novarum
1 month ago

No one is ‘denouncing’ the opinions of others. However, when a self-righteous group of people claim their views are divinely inspired, they become dangerous. Saying “You have your opinion and I have God’s” is a sign of religious insanity and self-delusion.

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  FrDavid H
1 month ago

Perhaps you should ask the targets of your frequent tirades against (let me try to list them), guitars, smiling clergy in jeans, happy clappy services, people who teach incoherent nonsense, clergy with names like Tom and Nicky and Andy, and just evangelicals in general, whether they feel they have been denounced.

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
1 month ago

But I never claimed God said that!

John Davies
John Davies
Reply to  FrDavid H
1 month ago

It’s very dangerous indeed – God’s opinion cannot be challenged – and often leads to all manner of evil, either politically or, tragically, in church history.
What about the eleventh beatitude – Live and let live?
The split has been coming for a long time; indeed growing ever more inevitable. I feel sorry for our new Archbishop, who now has to deal with the fallout.

rerum novarum
rerum novarum
Reply to  FrDavid H
1 month ago

So if you were having a discussion with a preacher and he said ‘You are wrong because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God’, would you tell him that he was religiously insane and self-delusional?

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
Reply to  rerum novarum
1 month ago

Knowing the scriptures and power of God doesn’t make anyone’s opinions more certain. If they claim their views and God’s are the same, they’re obviously pompously deluded.

rerum novarum
rerum novarum
Reply to  FrDavid H
1 month ago

It’s worth taking a look at Matthew 22:29.

Not giving up on inclusion
Not giving up on inclusion
Reply to  FrDavid H
1 month ago

Ironically, that was exactly the stance taken in the concluding words of Issues in Human Sexuality: a group of Bishops writing ‘But we have the mind of Christ…’. There is heavier irony in the fact that, so soon after that despised document has been consigned to history, another group of Bishops seem to be doing their best to ensure the same fate for the Living in Love and Faith project. With equal apparent lack of pastoral care.

Pat ONeill
Pat ONeill
Reply to  rerum novarum
1 month ago

I disagree. What I find “wrong” in the beliefs of such people is not what they believe, but that they believe only THEY have it right.

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
1 month ago
FrDavid H
FrDavid H
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

It looks like an expensive and extravagant way just to say they hate gay people.

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  FrDavid H
1 month ago

You would of course say that, and add it to your litany as referred to by Chesterton above.

*It is a retreat*.

Does this get added to your list as well?

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

Sorry. It’s a homophobic “retreat”.

Simon Holdaway
Simon Holdaway
1 month ago

There are over 80 comments about this subject. Doesn’t one word sum-up GAFCON’S stance – ‘Bonkers’? Nuff said.

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
Reply to  Simon Holdaway
1 month ago

According to the Church Times, the ‘bonkers’ Gafcon statement originated in evangelical Sydney. Nuff said.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  FrDavid H
1 month ago

The Constitution of the Australian Church devised by Abp Fisher gave considerable autonomy to dioceses because of the particularity of Sydney. So I wonder if the GAFCON initiative may bring about a more formal parting of the ways in Australia? If so what will happen I wonder to the ( increasingly ) small number of ” stole ” parishes like Christ Church St Lawrence or St James King St which offer something different to the usual Sydney fare? And there are other provinces where “churchmanship” is divided e.g. Tanzania. Will that split? I rather think some of the more extreme… Read more »

Clifford Jones
Clifford Jones
Reply to  Perry Butler
1 month ago

I believe Geoffrey Fisher drafted the Constitution on the ship when returning from his 1950 trip to Australia.

Philip Groves
Philip Groves
Reply to  Perry Butler
1 month ago

Tanzania is not in that trajectory. The split there between high and low has generally been resolved by opposition to GAFCON – the key evangelical bishops are working very closely with the high church Archbishop. They are rejecting the extreme theology of the founding missionaries as they work on how to be African Anglicans in communion with Canterbury and TEC.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Philip Groves
1 month ago

That is good to hear. I have never been to Tanzania and am out of date. I did read ( some time ago admittedly) that some laity brought up in the south ( Masasi etc) tended to become RC if they moved north and those in the north went Pentecostal if they moved south..Such were the liturgical diversities. Where do the Lutherans fit in given their relative strength. Given Poorvoo does something similar operate. The Lutherans there are in the historic succession I think.( From Sweden? ) Are there Provinces split apart from Sydney and much of Australia??

Ruairidh
Ruairidh
Reply to  Simon Holdaway
1 month ago

ditto!

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
Reply to  Simon Holdaway
1 month ago

Very predictable of course. Intersting comment from Andrew McGowan of Berkeley Divinity School McGowan suggests that the Gafcon Statement which was signed by the chair of the Gafcon Primates (heads of Churches) Council, Archbishop Laurent Mbanda of Rwanda, might have one man claiming to speak for the rest of Gafcon without warrant. “It is thus odd to read the Archbishop of Rwanda, the Most Rev’d Dr Laurent Mbanda, proclaiming new arrangements for the Anglican Communion–or rather the creation of a new entity called the “Global Anglican Communion” (doubtless GAC henceforth)–on behalf of a whole set of national Churches who, as… Read more »

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Andrew Godsall
1 month ago
  1. GSFA is a synodically oriented body. They have not spoken. Why are you referring to them?
  2. GAFCON is a different entity.

As I have said, we shall have to see how these two entities resolve different emphases in their groupings.

The editors are not publishing an earlier comment on this.

I think the main issue for CofE people is the CofE, especially given the focus on same-sex issues and the recent statement from the HoB.

Simon Kershaw
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

“The editors are not publishing an earlier comment on this.” — that comment seems to have been overlooked, but has now been published.

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Simon Kershaw
1 month ago

Thank you Simon for all your labours here. God bless.

Andrew Godsall
Andrew Godsall
Reply to  Anglican Priest
1 month ago

Chris

There is of course overlap between the GSFA and GAFCON.

And as I have noted further up this thread, it is pretty clear that GAFCON statement was not the result of any consensus.

We shall see if the GSFA make any statement after their retreat but I am not at all encouraged by either the tone of their communique

https://www.thegsfa.org/news/global-south-anglican-bishops-gather-in-uganda-for-formation-retreat

or by the content of their Covenantal structure.

I realise you think that CofE people should not comment on Anglican Communion affairs. But it doesn’t seem to stop you commenting on CofE affairs?!

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Andrew Godsall
1 month ago

Just hope you can find your way through your main LGBT+ concerns in a CofE with serious challenges facing its future. Those battles are not mine, of course. I have realized–especially after the recent HoB statements–what a difficult coal face now exists for you.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
1 month ago

I enjoyed reading the clear and measured statement from the Church of Ireland. In a land with a ( still?) Roman Catholic majority and a substantial Presbyterian Church one senses they know where they stand and are confident in their Anglicanism. I remember a senior churchman 35 years ago who was at the 1958 Lambeth Conference and who said the ( usually theologically well educated) C of I bishops were often looked to and were much respected for their input.

J C Fisher
J C Fisher
27 days ago

I hope this is on-topic here— I just came across a name I hadn’t seen in a long while—and hadn’t heard the NEWS about him from a few years back. Michael Nazir-Ali: I didn’t know he had “swum the Tiber.” I guess it’s highly unsurprising, that currents events of this thread now have the ex-bishop/now-Monsignor predicting many more of us to make the swim: Former Anglican bishop predicts new wave of conversions to Catholic Church https://www.ncronline.org/news/former-anglican-bishop-predicts-new-wave-conversions-catholic-church The Church of England has clearly decided to go the way of liberal Protestant denominations, abandoning any claims to be upholding the Catholic apostolic… Read more »

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