Not so very long ago, Confirmation was the passport to receiving the Eucharist, and I think that worked well. Then someone thought children were suitable to receive the sacrament before Confirmation. I never understood why adults were not included unless confirmed or intending to be confirmed. Result: even fewer confirmations than before. And more youngsters miss out on learning more about the faith through confirmation classes. Own goal.
Confirmation used to give access to the full sacramental life of the Church. So, yes the Eucharist. And also marriage. And ordination. It also used to be assumed that a parish officebearer would be confirmed, since they were also required to be a communicant. It’s a bit hard to offer a confirmation class when there are no children in your congregation. It’s not so much an own goal as a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I suspect there are other factors to consider in the decline of confirmation numbers. Bigger changes have left confirmation as ‘a sacrament seeking a theology.’ Relatively few… Read more »
“Confirmation does tend to come into its own as a rite of passage for making a commitment to faith. I’ve accompanied people baptised in infancy who have had the lights slowly come on as they’ve explored faith and prayer”. This is very similar to what happens in Baptist communities. Children may be brought for dedication or blessing, but are not baptised – that comes later when they “own” the faith for themselves. (In fact Baptist churches often have a problem as those who have been baptised elsewhere as children often wish to be re-baptised by immersion as a visible and… Read more »
CofE practice is remarkable in its theological inconsistency here. I remember Paul Bradshaw pointing out that the Baptism of Infants implies a sacramental theology which is ‘ex opere operato’, whereas the Adults Only (ie old enough to start work as an agricultural labourer circa 1830) policy of admission to Communion suggests something very different, a form of receptionism, perhaps. (Historically, of course, the rite was a unified one, and (according to the Book of Bradshaw) our current practice in the West was strongly influenced by the availability of bishops in that little Italian settlement known to some as Rome.) There… Read more »
+David Stancliffe, when Chair of the Liturgical Commission, claimed that the post-baptismal prayer, ‘May God, who has received you by baptism into his Church, pour upon you the riches of his grace ….’, when accompanied with Chrismation using episcopally consecrated Chrism, was analogous to confirmation and should admit the child to Communion. Confirmation would come later, after catechesis and once the young adult was ready to ‘own’ their baptism in front of their chief pastor and receive the grace to continue their discipleship.
+Stancliffe would be right, it’s almost indistinguishable from the Eastern Orthodox Chrismation of babies, which counts as confirmation as far as Rome is concerned. It is also repeatable.
In my church the Roman Catholic Church we have First Holy Communion before Confirmation, but before First Holy Communion is given Children have to go through a period of preparation and also make their first Confession. Then when it comes to Confirmation there is another period of instruction. When this was first introduced in the Church of England, it was part of a Report issued by what what was then the General Synod Board of Education “Children in the Way, which came out in the late 1990’s when my late mother Dorothy Jamal was the National Children’s Officer for the… Read more »
Maybe but just a couple of thoughts that may be related. Even in large, growing churches, the number of confirmations continue to decline. And I’d relate directly to the wider cultural issue that people are increasingly uneasy about affiliation. Baptism doesn’t really feel like affiliation, especially infant baptism, but confirmation really does. So people seem happy to be baptised and happy to worship regularly, but not happy to affiliate. I guess the picture isn’t helped by priests like me who struggle with the point of confirmation and would largely endorse the Orthodox practice of communion on the basis of baptism.… Read more »
“I never understood why adults were not included unless confirmed or intending to be confirmed. Result: even fewer confirmations than before.” Wouldn’t this suggest more, not fewer, confirmations? The liturgical norm – although not necessarily the pastoral approach – is one in which adults are baptized, confirmed and receive first Communion within a single rite. When adults are baptized days before their confirmation it can weaken the significance of baptism by separating it from confirmation and Eucharist. Is this the rationale behind Canon B24, which states that the Bishop should be given at least a week’s notice of an adult… Read more »
agreed, Confirmation classes were a vital stage of learning more about the faith as one approached adulthood, and would be more relevant today with the secularisation of RSE in schools . To appreciate the mystery of the sacrament at an early age is very difficult . Confirmation classes were the perfect opportunity for enquiring minds to learn from those most qualified.
But is that so? I’m not denying the benefits of solid catechesis, but I’ve long felt that the young have an innate sense of the sacramental – a sense which adults have often been socialised out of. No way of proving it either way of course – after all, it is a mystery!
Recalling a former parish priest of mine who was very pally with the Orthodox, he was once asked by an Orthodox priest pal what happened in Confirmation classes. ‘We tell them what happens in the Eucharist,’ he replied. Impressed, the Orthodox returned, ‘Oh, would you tell me, too? I’ve always wanted to know.’ Is Communion about the encounter with God appropriate to who one is at that particular point in one’s journey, or is it an exhibition of propositional knowledge to a particular standard? If so, the latter, should we excommunicate all learning-disadvantaged people? If the former, should we drop… Read more »
Parishes lament how their young folk disappear from church soon after confirmation. Yet the very name ‘confirmation prep’ invites comparison with preparing for graduation: not from Uni, but from the life of the Church. Discipleship – begun in baptism, affirmed at confirmation and nourished by the Eucharist – would be better supported by ongoing catechesis detached from any association with earning meal tickets.
I’m not so sure–at my Church, St. Bartholomew’s NYC, we recently had confirmations–27 on one day–children, adults all together. We had a full, happy church that day, which was in part because we invite those who wish to be confirmed to learn about the Anglican Tradition in a group setting, asking questions and welcoming those who feel called to confirmation.
My confirmation classes took six weeks to talk us through the Lord’s Prayer, but as a way of ensuring we had a faith to be confirmed in, well, I don’t think that entered into the equation. So much depends on the quality of the instruction given.
In the western church confirmation was included as one of the 7 sacraments by Peter Lombard but it was much neglected. To remedy this in 1281 Archbishop Peckham decreed noone should be admitted to communion unless they were confirmed ( though of course people communicated very rarely then) so this was the discipline that the Reformation kept. I suppose the age varied. John Wesley was confirmed very young I believe but in the 19th and 20th c it seems to have been in the 12-15 age range, creeping earlier under the influence of the Parish Communion. Professor Lampe’s Seal of… Read more »
“I wonder how far confirmation is still commonly practised “de rigueur” in our Public Schools?”. Am I the only one here who shudders at such a statement? Surely the decision to be confirmed should be an individual’s response to an awareness of faith, not something that is “done” with a batch of students who reach a certain age, even with preparation?
When I learned that William Laud did not visit the Diocese of St David’s once while he was Bishop there, I wondered what happened between 1621 and 1627, as there would have been no confirmations. Unless he had a deputy? No new admissions to the Lord’s Supper?
FrDavid H
1 month ago
Confirmation was more widespread when the Church of England taught Anglicanism.. With the spread of HTB-style churches and happy-clappy ministers, the need for a bishop’s hands on the head became irrelevant. Who needs a passport to listen to worship songs, or a man in denims explaining the horrors of same-sex marriage?
Last Sunday (Pentecost Sunday) the BBC broadcast the morning service live from the Gas Street Church here in Birmingham. I gather it was an overwhelming success, which had more positive feedback than the religious programmes department have had for a long time, and left the production crew feeling very bowled over – OK, the style is not to my personal taste, but that doesn’t matter. What’s important is that it conveyed the positive joys of faith and worship, part of this ‘quiet revival’ among the young which is growing among us. Be thankful for it – what matters most is… Read more »
As I reflect on my own spiritual experience, while I have a vague memory of my confirmation at the age of twelve, I have no memory at all of any of the content of the confirmation classes (this despite the fact that I know the vicar was a good teacher!). So experientially (I’m not speaking objectively or theologically here), if confirmation was meant to be my own acceptance of the baptismal commitments made by my parents, it was ineffectual. Also, when I look back, I can detect no memory of any difference in my awareness of the Holy Spirit’s presence… Read more »
Thankyou Trevor for your observations on hymns and all that goes towards making them suitable in worship. I think you have expressed every view that I have held for years.
I’m just grateful there are just enough in our congregation to make the choice of tune, speed and volume a consideration, not forgetting to let our more recent composers in on the side when they least expect it!.
Yes, it seemed sensible. My rule when an organist was that the vicar chooses the hymns and organist chooses the tunes. There are some very dreary tunes out there. Also do not underestimate the time and effort taken by the organist. It is usually a volunteer position with minimal compensation. It helped my pocket in student days. Yet, in my day, it involved a Thursday choir practice, choosing and learning anthems, organ practice for the voluntary (normally many hours of work per piece over several weeks), possibly a Saturday wedding with learning a piece requested by the bride, which again… Read more »
I touched a nerve, without intending to. There is a great variety in sermons, whether a 5 min. for a family service or a biblical exposition lasting 30 mins.
Nigel, I think it is quite legitimate to draw people’s attention to the amount of work involved in being a church musician, without needing to denigrate the dedication and hard work of a preacher.
What is the theological or liturgical purpose of the voluntary? I can understand how a well chosen, prepared and delivered sermon and set of hymns can enhance the spiritual effectiveness of a service. But based on my regular attendance at Salisbury cathedral evensong I struggle to appreciate the voluntary in the same way. It often seems to me to be overloud and bombastic, and not matched to what has gone on earlier. But is that based on my lack of appreciation of its purpose? Five years ago there was a strong expectation that congregation members would always stay in place… Read more »
At an advent evensong, for example, I started with a Alain Fantasie, and the closing was the Alain Trois dances. I was trying to fit the occasion. I would not play those at a morning family service,
Many, many years ago I attended evensong at Salisbury most weekdays and have no memory of organ voluntary However,. at the. Sunday Eucharist there certainly was, and I recall a rather posh bloke smiling and proclaiming that it was a very merry organ this morning, I rather think he went off, did I with quite a spring in his step. As for the sermon, well, it was a long time ago.
When one looks through the music lists at most English cathedrals, it is evident that great care is taken over the choice of the organ voluntary and, almost invariably, there’s a theological link to the Church’s seasons or a major feast day like Easter and Pentecost for which there is a considerable organ repertoire. Unfortunately this may not be understood or appreciated – possibly a short descriptive explanation would help listeners. Unfortunately it’s many years since I attended Salisbury Cathedral (I knew Richard Seal well) but always found the service music and voluntaries to be exemplary. The same could equally… Read more »
I think with all things there are those that put effort in and prepare and those that don’t. I have heard sermons and organ voluntaries of both ilks. Although I do wonder if many priests are compelled to get up in the middle of the night to pen their sermons as some cathedral organists are required to do to practice their voluntaries!
As you are aware Nigel, the composer of ‘Morning has broken’ intended it to be a hymn. We used to have it in assembly at my school, and I think that that predates Cat Stevens’ rendition.
A celtic melody, as I recall, arranged rather than composed for the hymn.
Ralph Vaughan Williams collected and arranged many folk-tunes for the original English Hymnal and ‘Songs of Praise’, adapted very successfully for hymns and now the ‘accepted’ tune in many cases.
According to an AI overview which I have just read, ‘Morning Has Broken’ is a hymn set to a Scottish tune as you say. That the lyrics were meant to be a hymn is I think fairly clear. Percy Dearmer has featured in this thread. I think that every school child has benefited from his ‘He who would valiant be’. The original ‘Who would true valour see’ was much less suitable for school use. I can recall that when the original form was sung at a church I went to in Sydney a ripple of laughter went round the (mainly… Read more »
And to come back to the pop song version, Cat Stevens was accompanied by Rick Wakeman – and whilst Stevens became a Muslim (as Yusuf Islam) and stopped performing, Wakeman went on to become … the organist at his local Baptist church.
‘Gaelic’ rather than ‘Celtic’ would have been a better description of the tune’s origin and it is now generally given the name “Bunessan” (from the Isle of Mull).
The author of the words, Eleanor Farjeon, was a well-known English writer and poet in her day, also writing stories and plays for children. As well as ‘Songs of Praise’, “Morning has broken” has made it in the ‘New English Hymnal’ and the Australian hymn book “With one voice”, albeit with different harmonisations of the tune!
Although I have great regard for Percy Dearmer, I for one, not surprisingly, prefer Bunyan’s original words, though of course like some of his other poems they were not written to be sung. I notice some excellent recent hymn books have the original feisty words, for example, our own Church’s “Common Praise” and the 4th edition of the Church of Scotland’s “Church Hymnary”. Neither in Sydney, where I live, nor elsewhere, have I ever heard a ripple of laughter when they are sung. Mr Jones’s experience may not be common.
Yet again John, nice to hear from you through TA. I recall during my very early days in Australia, very much a ‘honeymoon’, attending St James King St for the Sunday evening service. You preached, and your sermon was followed by ‘Dear Lord and Father of mankind’. It was beautifully sung by the choir and congregation. That was when Howard Hollis was vicar. He was of course a church musician of note.
This prompts me to ask whether you remember which tune was used. The excellent Australian hymnal “With One Voice”gives as its first choice ‘Nicolaus’, a Lutheran chorale harmonised by J S Bach, and ‘Repton’ as the alternative tune, making the point that ‘Repton’ requires the last line of every verse to be repeated. Sadly “With One Voice” didn’t really catch on in England, a pity as it has a fine and ecumenical range of hymns, calling itself “a hymnal for all the churches”. I agree that ‘Repton’ has become fairly standard, actually probably invariably across the board in the C… Read more »
Thank you Rowland. It was sung to the tune I understood at the time to be called ‘Judith’. I have learned from AI that ‘Repton’ and ‘Judith’ are one and the same tune.
Fr Dexter Bracey
1 month ago
“…my own experience as an organist is that diffident congregations are better encouraged to sing by a fairly robust ‘accompaniment'”, writes Trevor Thurston-Smith. Absolutely right. I’ve heard congregations practically give up singing if the organist plays too softly – no-one who is not a confident singer wants to hear themselves over the organ.
Agreed. The Mass I attended on Saturday night was very well attended, but the organ (clavinova) accompaniment was so quiet and feeble that it could barely be heard. Consequently, half the congregation didn’t bother trying to join in; apart from one or two brave souls, most of us just gave up half way through the hymns and closed our hymn books.
Laurence Cunnington
1 month ago
“At the moment, clergy can’t, but they can be in same-sex civil partnerships; to the world outside the church, that may look odd, but the C of E gets around this by saying that there isn’t any sex in civil partnerships; and, I suppose, logically, that there has to be sex in marriages?” Helen King Yet if one converts a same-sex civil partnership into a marriage, the ‘start’ of the marriage is backdated to that of the civil partnership – even if that date is before the introduction of same-sex marriages. A clergyperson, upon retirement, could do this and thus… Read more »
Last edited 1 month ago by Laurence Cunnington
Froghole
1 month ago
Time was when confirmation training involved the catechism. Who catechises these days? Perhaps the increasing incoherence of the Church of England might be attributable – at least in part – to the gradual, and now almost complete, disappearance of that custom over the last century (as I think Dr Butler has noted on occasion): https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-christians-abc-9780198206170?cc=gb&lang=en&#
I think the C of E would benefit from a new catechism along the lines of an official ( or at least semi official) Outline of the Faith as understood by the Church of England to put in the hands of enquirers and the basis of other catechetical material. My father b 1912 if asked what a sacrament was would reply “An outward sign etc) as per the Prayer Book. I once prepared an 87 year old for confirmation and a friend accompaning her told me that at his school ( St Paul’s) they were prepared for confirmation using the… Read more »
I do confirmation training where I work in the US. In our case, many people simply are coming from other denominations. The categories confirmation, re-affirmation, reception are operative depending on how adult profession of faith (if relevant) has been made elsewhere. Nevertheless, many opt to do the catechetical part, just because they want to know the content of the faith they confess (and necessary for confirmation). I know the contorted history of confirmation/baptism, but find the catechesis helpful as do those coming. The Outline of Faith in the TEC BCP is very bare bones. I used to try to adapt/edit/supplement… Read more »
Oh, and there was me thinking the CofE had already adopted a new catechism – isn’t it called the Alpha Curse or something?
Charles Read
1 month ago
Historically there was just one initiation rite which was baptism. It might or might not have included anointing with oil and laying on of hands, depending on where you were – there was much local variation . As one or two have pointed out in this thread, by about the 4th century this rite began to break up in the West, but not in the east, with the result that, sometime later on a separate service of confirmation emerged. There is no confirmation in the early centuries and so it ends up being a rite in search of a theology,… Read more »
The Orthodox communicate babies/ little children true ( though the parents bringing them up often don’t receive as confession before every act of communion is still strongly held. But their baptism rite includes chrismation so the child is confirmed. Of course some clergy do use chrism after baptising see Allan Sheath’s comments above with its implication that the child could/should become communicate ( but I imagine they don’t).
Chrismation is not confirmation. Chrismation was sometimes part of the ancient unified rite but was not always performed by a bishop nor accompanied by laying on of hands. Confirmation is a western invention (by accident).
I think it was invented much earlier in the Acts of the Apostles, where the Apostles laid hands on those who had been Baptised, when I was prepared for Confirmation as an Anglican in the past, the Priest who prepared me Canon Gordan Sealey, read the passage to us Candidates from the Acts of the Apostles and told us Candidates that, that was where the origin of Confirmation began. Jonathan
I am afraid that is incorrect. No NT scholar that I can think of thinks those Acts passages are confirmation – not least because the rest of Acts has the practice of baptism alone. (And there is no confirmation in the post-apostolic rites.) The two Acts passages you refer to are the exception and need an explanation – Lampe thought it was because they mark the Gospel entering new territory. Seeing those Acts passages as confirmation was an interpretation invented by Dix and Mason as far as I can see.
I think Charles is right and that we need to remember the early history of baptism. Thinking back to my own liturgical training, a Sarum College course on rites of initiation with Paul Bradshaw as guest lecturer, it seems to me that the very early church took a lot of its practice from the contemporary mystery religions. The Eucharist was a mystery reserved for initiates and conducted in secret behind closed doors. The initiation rite giving access to the mystery was baptism, which was conducted after a significant period of instruction and preparation. In many mystery religions the candidates would… Read more »
Twenty years after GS issued regulations on admitting children to Communion on the basis of their baptism, the practice still remains within the gift of the bishop. Why, I don’t know. But it does suggest some hesitancy in recognising baptism as sufficient in itself.
Some dioceses also require a rite of admission to Communion on the day, but again, isn’t this questioning baptism’s sufficiency? Surely all that is needed is to give notice that on X Sunday N & N will be receiving their first Communion, plus naming them in the Prayers of Intercession?
Yes i agree – what we have is a C of E fudge! Bishops also tell me they want to keep confirmation so they can visit parishes…
Bob
1 month ago
I am following the many comments about confirmation with interest. However, a much more serious issue is that, according to latest Statistics for Mission data, the majority of churches have hardly any children and young people worshiping on a Sunday.
Anglican Priest
1 month ago
Just a further note. I was impressed with the seriousness with which catechism is taken in the Catholic parish life I experienced in France. With the clergy shortage, laity do a lot of things we associate with ministerial/priestly roles. But not only because of that. To be catechized is to know yourself as a Catholic fidele. You own your identity. Confirmation is the formal, public declaration of that — and this whatever one makes of theology and church historical precedent. But justification along these lines is also to hand, and informs the liturgical service, readings, and so forth. I guess… Read more »
That’s because in the Catholic Church a person is saved not simply by justification by faith, but also by observing the church’s sacraments. In the early church baptism by water as a sign of repentance and baptism in the Spirit were all that was required, and that’s what happened to me. I still remember it as if it was yesterday.
I disagree with this (protestant? self referential? ‘that’s what happened to me’) idea and characterisation.
I doubt a modern Catholic would recognise it *on the terms you use it to make your point.* Without further elaboration.
I also don’t recoginse your appeal to “the early church” against modern Catholic practice.
Perhaps I don’t understand your point.
God bless.
Last edited 1 month ago by Anglican Priest
Mark Bennet
1 month ago
Another role that Confirmation can play in practice, if not in theory, is as a rite to acknowledge adult commitment in a church where infant baptism has been the norm. We have a confirmation service next week. A lot of play is made of young candidates – our oldest is in her 90s, and whatever the theory, it will be meaningful to her as she is confirmed alongside her daughter and granddaughter. We have a second family group too – it is almost as if we are living in the time of Acts where households are referenced more than. once… Read more »
One of the drivers for admission to Communion on the basis of baptism was the pressure to confirm candidates at an ever younger age in order for them to receive Communion. Confirmation – so it was thought – once freed from such pressure could come later to meet a pastoral need. That it hasn’t is a loss.
Allan’s “That it hasn’t is a loss” seems to contradict what Mark Bennett wrote: “Confirmation is a rite that can meet a pastoral need”. I share Mark’s perspective. In a parish that admits baptised children to communion, confirmation is rare because it is now used to mark adults coming to a personal faith, which is rare. The only reason I’m concerned about how few confirmations there are is that it now honestly indicates how rare it is that adults come to faith. That matters. Apart from that, why does it matter that there are few confirmations?
That confirmation hasn’t come later in cases where its use could have fulfilled a pastoral need is where the loss is. An example is the parish church which regularly ‘re-baptizes’ adults who were baptized as children and who now wish to affirm their faith. An act which flies in the face of the entire Western and Anglican canon. Confirmation, for all its confusion, is at least canonical.
Not disagreeing with any of these comments but I’d add that it seems to me that whenever people stand up as adults and say publicly that they want to be Christians that’s something to celebrate (assuming it’s a sensible version of Christianity!) I’d prefer those previously baptised to make use of the available rite of confirmation although if they want to get rebaptised in another church I’d still celebrate the important thing which is their choosing to be a follower of Jesus Christ. In the context of the collapsing of the Western church i wouldn’t worry about canonical purity! Far… Read more »
A “sensible version of Christianity”! Baptism can happen only once and is for life; the bond God forms in baptism is immutable. ‘Re-baptism’ is not only an ecclesial oxymoron; it questions the integrity of every baptism, yours and mine too.
If you’re concerned about some C of E churches re-baptising, and being dismissive of infant baptism, then i agree with you. It’d be just a further example of evangelicals pretending to be Anglican, magpie like. But if someone who underwent infant baptism discovers a faith in the context of another church, say Baptist or New Frontiers or similar, then I’d still see that as mostly positive. Although again I’d want to add the caveat/hope that it’s a step towards a sensible version of Christianity (by which I mean it places at least as much emphasis on the call to imitate… Read more »
A former altar girl of mine joined her Uni CU, where she was ‘re-baptized’, causing hurt to her parents. I rang the Anglican chaplain who told me he had no influence over that particular fellowship, being seen as ‘unsound’ despite his Evangelical credentials.
Last month I had the joy of marrying Jane and her fiance. She’s now returned to “a sensible version of Christianity” and regrets not standing up to those who told her that her infant baptism and teenage confirmation were shams.
…although I suppose there’s also a question of whether the evangelical experience of the uni CU renewed her commitment to her faith? You say she’s continuing on her faith journey, which is great. I notice that a high proportion of the committed Christians I know, of various theological flavours, including many clergy, seem to have had an evangelical / charismatic boost at some point in their past, even if they have long since left that wing of the church behind. I know I have. As if the zeal developed then continues to motivate us, like a kick up the backside… Read more »
I’m puzzled that the ‘re-baptizing’ parish church I had in mind still continues this practice. Is the bishop unwilling/unable to intervene? Gorham casts a long shadow it appears.
Wishing you a speedy recovery.
A not so humble parishioner
1 month ago
Obviously all church music including hymns is, like all music, a subjective thing. As a church musician or minister with responsibility for music one has to discern the difference between complaints of preference and ones of genuine difficulty of access particularly for any congregational singing. For example there is a difference between someone complaining that you have chosen the “wrong” tune to “Love Divine” and people complaining that Hymns were hard to sing due to complex words, rhythms or range. We now have many different types of church music being adapted for congregational singing, some of which is less well… Read more »
There is one thought that has lingered in my mind about Hymns. For starters they certainly play an important part in Christian Worship. It is important to get good hymns into our churches, that reflect good doctrine. I like the Wesley Hymns for example, as there is good Doctrine in these hymns, we sing his hymns in my own church the Roman Catholic Church. I cannot help thinking that a Hymn Book is a Theology Book of the Church, in that people learn their Theology from the Hymns, and in that regard a Hymn Book can be a teacher of… Read more »
That is absolutely right Jonathan. However some of Wesley’s hymns (and others) are so full of theology that they are virtually unsingable! There is a place, I think, for both hymns and songs with ‘heavy’ content and ones of simple devotion.
As a young woman in 1963 I was in a 4-woman TB ward and I was reading Honest to God. The elderly woman diagonally opposite me asked me what my book was about. He’s arguing’ I said ‘that God is not an old man in the sky, but rather the ground of our being.’ ‘But he is’ she replied. ‘Why do you say that?’ ‘It’s in the hymn, isn’t it: There’s a friend for little children beyond the bright blue sky.’
In an essay I wrote as an ordinand, I applied the term ‘insidious theology’ to hymns. Very often, I think, we sing hymns (old and new) without noticing the theology behind the words. One very popular worship song tends to bring people up with a shock as they sing the second verse and realise what they are singing. That can open a good discussion about theology and belief, and I’ve run a discussion group using hymns in that way.
Nigel, I was speaking with my Orthodox Bishop friend, Bishop Raphael a year ago, and in Orthodoxy they are not happy about the Penal Substitutionary theory of the Atonement, nor the Satisfaction Theory that is part and parcel of this, as Orthodoxy has a high doctrine of the Trinity, and they believe this kind of Theology is blasphemous and that it divides the Trinity by setting the Father against the Son, and in its crudest form it can present God as a Hijacker who demands the payment of a Ransom, to redeem us. It is certainly not good theology. Jurgen… Read more »
Very famously (see the Aulen classic treatment of the atonement) the Orthodox lean toward the Christis Victor model (most representative of John’s Gospel). Obviously, Holy Writ has a variety of accounts of the atonement and the interpretative vocation is to see their complementarity.
Moltmann didn’t have an atonement theology covered by Aulen…it was his own ‘God crucified’ model.
I notice that when i preach anything other than substitutionary atonement in a Churches Together context, many seem to be hearing it for the first time. English Christianity seems to have become completely hijacked by the ‘he paid the price for me’ interpretation. What does Alpha teach?
I always thought it was the scorners mentioned in Ps 1 that punish us, because we are trapped in their sin system as well as when like Jesus we propose rebellion from it. Thus Jesus paid that price for us but the twist of His Father being angry at Him (and not at the codependency makers) has been entrenched ever more officially by those same scorners / codependency makers. Original sin is our epigenetic fallback tendency to (often) acquiesce to such neurotic imprisonment rather than show the example of standing up for ourselves in integrity. (Genesis ch 3 doesn’t say… Read more »
“the interpretative vocation is to see their complementarity”
Is this necessarily the case though? Why could one or more interpretation not simply be rejected as wrong? Is that necessarily illegitimate? Even allowing for the metaphorical nature of God-talk. In science a theory is sometimes discarded. Why not in theology?
Some hymns have very questionable theology. I am unable to sing that hymn with ‘meek and mild’ in the words. It is not Christianity, it is Victorian oppression. Luther’s away in a manger is not much better. ‘no crying he makes’??? Babies are meant to cry, good babies cry. If a baby does not cry there is a problem. Did Luther have any babies?
J.B. Phillips in one of his books (I think it was ‘Your God is Too Small’) heavily criticises ‘meek and mild’.
Perry Butler
1 month ago
A lot of interesting theological and pastoral reflection here. A wide variety of practice and different understandings. But alas the number being confirmed shrinks more and more and the number of children and teenagers in our churches ( with some exceptions) is small.As in many areas of C of E life we simply muddle through without as far as I can see much theological direction. We become more fragmented. I find it disheartening and I think others do, but I can’t unfortunately see any likelihood of anything much being done about it.
The catechumenate model of staged initiation rites was commended liturgically in 2005 as CW: Rites on the Way; followed later by the Pilgrim course designed to integrate with it. Yet despite the uptake of the Pilgrim course, is anyone using these rites? They represent a radical challenge to our inherited way(s!) of doing things, and 20 years ago I for one could not see a sufficiently large gap between Church and society to justify going down this road. But that was then and this is now. Any thoughts?
Totally agree Perry. Unless there is a positive intention to welcome and provide for families and their children the current pattern will continue. Funding needs to be provided to train family and children’s workers, and to appoint them to churches, who need to see this ministry as the priority. Sadly too many congregations bemoan the lack of children but are unwilling or unable to change.
Janet Fife
1 month ago
What is the point of confirming adults who are transferring from another Christian denomination? When I was confirmed into the C of E, having been a professing Christian for some 20 years, I felt I was acting out a lie and betraying my whole Christian background. My parents obviously thought so too, because they disowned me. I have spoken to others with a history as e.g. faithful Methodists or Baptists who have felt similarly. We really need to be more ecumenical.
It depends entirely on the context. The rubrics of the ACNA prayerbook (just to choose one example from others) indicate the varieties of, confirmation, re-affirmation, and reception. A person from another denomination who has made an adult profession of faith, for example, does not need to be confirmed. They can be received. One studies the parallel transitions and, of course, asks what makes the most sense. Many people from other traditions want to be confirmed. Others, no.
Because I felt God was calling me into a different denomination. But the ASB Confirmation service assumed that: a) I had been baptised as an infant and promises made on my behalf. I was dedicated as a baby and baptised at 17 after giving testimony to my faith b) I had little, if any, adult experience as a Christian. NB I haven’t now got an ASB so can’t check the words, but that’s my recollection. At any rate the service was designed solely for people baptised as babies into the C of E, not for adults transferring from another denomination.… Read more »
With respect, Janet, I think your memory may be a little faulty. Confirmation is for those who have been Baptised, whether as infants or Adults.
I’m still curious to know why you felt God was calling you into a. different denomination. Was it a hunch, or a mystical experience, or could you give reasons for it? Did you count it a privilege or a duty? As I believe you are Ordained, presumably you had to teach others about belonging to the Church of England as part of the … Church.
‘With respect, Janet, I think your memory may be a little faulty. Confirmation is for those who have been Baptised, whether as infants or Adults.’ I really don’t understand the point you are making here, nor why you assume my memory must be faulty.
I have written at some length about my journey from con evo dyed-in-the-wool Nonconformist to middle-of-the-road Angican, in Faiths Lost & Found (ed Martyn Percy and Charles Foster). It’s too long and complex a story to give here.
Janet, I was not aware of that book. I will put it on my wish list.
I am aware that there are a number of authors who contribute here regularly. It might be fun sometimes to be a little more up front about letting people know what we have written. It helps us build a more rounded picture of each other.
Janet, my wife and I have been thinking about our experience in the other direction. Since I retired we have been attending a Mennonite Brethren church on Sundays, and Mennonites practice believers’ baptism. There is also a defined membership structure (‘members’ and ‘adherents’). It’s a congregational church, so the practice varies from congregation to congregation—and our church tends to be on the progressive end of the MB spectrum, which is a bit unusual—but here is our church’s bylaw about becoming a member: Applicants shall qualify for membership if they 1. Profess faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord and… Read more »
As a personal testimony, I was both baptised and confirmed as a baby and an adolescent, without being asked, and whether I wanted to or not. Social form mattered more than my own feelings, leaving me singularly uninspired. Later, after I became a Christian at college, various people in a house church demanded I should be baptised again, as the first one was unbiblical and didn’t count….. Anyway, I duly was. This then opened a hornet’s nest with our new, evangelical vicar – all four of his young men had been re-baptised, which, he said, was throwing God’s grace back… Read more »
What’s in the heart of the individual, in conjunction with the grace they believe is being conferred.
Francis James
1 month ago
For protestant (Evangelical Lutheran) Germans & Scandinavians confirmation remains very much a coming of age rite of passage for young teenagers, & their pastors still run annual classes for them. The church ceremony is conducted by the local pastor & for the youngsters it is a big day with lots of presents (often money these days) from godparents & relatives. Historically it was connected with being ready to go out in the world in travelling apprenticeships, or as seafarers. Once confirmed the teenagers become adult in religious terms, enjoy religious freedom & cannot be made to do RE at school.… Read more »
Not so very long ago, Confirmation was the passport to receiving the Eucharist, and I think that worked well. Then someone thought children were suitable to receive the sacrament before Confirmation. I never understood why adults were not included unless confirmed or intending to be confirmed. Result: even fewer confirmations than before. And more youngsters miss out on learning more about the faith through confirmation classes. Own goal.
Confirmation used to give access to the full sacramental life of the Church. So, yes the Eucharist. And also marriage. And ordination. It also used to be assumed that a parish officebearer would be confirmed, since they were also required to be a communicant. It’s a bit hard to offer a confirmation class when there are no children in your congregation. It’s not so much an own goal as a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I suspect there are other factors to consider in the decline of confirmation numbers. Bigger changes have left confirmation as ‘a sacrament seeking a theology.’ Relatively few… Read more »
“Confirmation does tend to come into its own as a rite of passage for making a commitment to faith. I’ve accompanied people baptised in infancy who have had the lights slowly come on as they’ve explored faith and prayer”. This is very similar to what happens in Baptist communities. Children may be brought for dedication or blessing, but are not baptised – that comes later when they “own” the faith for themselves. (In fact Baptist churches often have a problem as those who have been baptised elsewhere as children often wish to be re-baptised by immersion as a visible and… Read more »
CofE practice is remarkable in its theological inconsistency here. I remember Paul Bradshaw pointing out that the Baptism of Infants implies a sacramental theology which is ‘ex opere operato’, whereas the Adults Only (ie old enough to start work as an agricultural labourer circa 1830) policy of admission to Communion suggests something very different, a form of receptionism, perhaps. (Historically, of course, the rite was a unified one, and (according to the Book of Bradshaw) our current practice in the West was strongly influenced by the availability of bishops in that little Italian settlement known to some as Rome.) There… Read more »
+David Stancliffe, when Chair of the Liturgical Commission, claimed that the post-baptismal prayer, ‘May God, who has received you by baptism into his Church, pour upon you the riches of his grace ….’, when accompanied with Chrismation using episcopally consecrated Chrism, was analogous to confirmation and should admit the child to Communion. Confirmation would come later, after catechesis and once the young adult was ready to ‘own’ their baptism in front of their chief pastor and receive the grace to continue their discipleship.
+Stancliffe would be right, it’s almost indistinguishable from the Eastern Orthodox Chrismation of babies, which counts as confirmation as far as Rome is concerned. It is also repeatable.
I’d go back further and say it’s the separation of confirmation from baptism in the West that has left it rudderless and in search of a theology.
In my church the Roman Catholic Church we have First Holy Communion before Confirmation, but before First Holy Communion is given Children have to go through a period of preparation and also make their first Confession. Then when it comes to Confirmation there is another period of instruction. When this was first introduced in the Church of England, it was part of a Report issued by what what was then the General Synod Board of Education “Children in the Way, which came out in the late 1990’s when my late mother Dorothy Jamal was the National Children’s Officer for the… Read more »
Maybe but just a couple of thoughts that may be related. Even in large, growing churches, the number of confirmations continue to decline. And I’d relate directly to the wider cultural issue that people are increasingly uneasy about affiliation. Baptism doesn’t really feel like affiliation, especially infant baptism, but confirmation really does. So people seem happy to be baptised and happy to worship regularly, but not happy to affiliate. I guess the picture isn’t helped by priests like me who struggle with the point of confirmation and would largely endorse the Orthodox practice of communion on the basis of baptism.… Read more »
“I never understood why adults were not included unless confirmed or intending to be confirmed. Result: even fewer confirmations than before.” Wouldn’t this suggest more, not fewer, confirmations? The liturgical norm – although not necessarily the pastoral approach – is one in which adults are baptized, confirmed and receive first Communion within a single rite. When adults are baptized days before their confirmation it can weaken the significance of baptism by separating it from confirmation and Eucharist. Is this the rationale behind Canon B24, which states that the Bishop should be given at least a week’s notice of an adult… Read more »
agreed, Confirmation classes were a vital stage of learning more about the faith as one approached adulthood, and would be more relevant today with the secularisation of RSE in schools . To appreciate the mystery of the sacrament at an early age is very difficult . Confirmation classes were the perfect opportunity for enquiring minds to learn from those most qualified.
But is that so? I’m not denying the benefits of solid catechesis, but I’ve long felt that the young have an innate sense of the sacramental – a sense which adults have often been socialised out of. No way of proving it either way of course – after all, it is a mystery!
Recalling a former parish priest of mine who was very pally with the Orthodox, he was once asked by an Orthodox priest pal what happened in Confirmation classes. ‘We tell them what happens in the Eucharist,’ he replied. Impressed, the Orthodox returned, ‘Oh, would you tell me, too? I’ve always wanted to know.’ Is Communion about the encounter with God appropriate to who one is at that particular point in one’s journey, or is it an exhibition of propositional knowledge to a particular standard? If so, the latter, should we excommunicate all learning-disadvantaged people? If the former, should we drop… Read more »
Parishes lament how their young folk disappear from church soon after confirmation. Yet the very name ‘confirmation prep’ invites comparison with preparing for graduation: not from Uni, but from the life of the Church. Discipleship – begun in baptism, affirmed at confirmation and nourished by the Eucharist – would be better supported by ongoing catechesis detached from any association with earning meal tickets.
I’m not so sure–at my Church, St. Bartholomew’s NYC, we recently had confirmations–27 on one day–children, adults all together. We had a full, happy church that day, which was in part because we invite those who wish to be confirmed to learn about the Anglican Tradition in a group setting, asking questions and welcoming those who feel called to confirmation.
Very much with you on this. My concern was not around catechesis itself, but over making eucharistic sharing contingent on completing catechesis.
My confirmation classes took six weeks to talk us through the Lord’s Prayer, but as a way of ensuring we had a faith to be confirmed in, well, I don’t think that entered into the equation. So much depends on the quality of the instruction given.
In the western church confirmation was included as one of the 7 sacraments by Peter Lombard but it was much neglected. To remedy this in 1281 Archbishop Peckham decreed noone should be admitted to communion unless they were confirmed ( though of course people communicated very rarely then) so this was the discipline that the Reformation kept. I suppose the age varied. John Wesley was confirmed very young I believe but in the 19th and 20th c it seems to have been in the 12-15 age range, creeping earlier under the influence of the Parish Communion. Professor Lampe’s Seal of… Read more »
“I wonder how far confirmation is still commonly practised “de rigueur” in our Public Schools?”. Am I the only one here who shudders at such a statement? Surely the decision to be confirmed should be an individual’s response to an awareness of faith, not something that is “done” with a batch of students who reach a certain age, even with preparation?
The statement was simply a question. It would be interesting to have some statistics.
When I learned that William Laud did not visit the Diocese of St David’s once while he was Bishop there, I wondered what happened between 1621 and 1627, as there would have been no confirmations. Unless he had a deputy? No new admissions to the Lord’s Supper?
Confirmation was more widespread when the Church of England taught Anglicanism.. With the spread of HTB-style churches and happy-clappy ministers, the need for a bishop’s hands on the head became irrelevant. Who needs a passport to listen to worship songs, or a man in denims explaining the horrors of same-sex marriage?
I have a feeling you are using the term ‘happy-clappy’ in a derogatory sense. Please stop. It is another form of name calling. Embrace diversity.
Men in denims explaining the horrors of same-sex marriage is derogatory .
Quite
I’m glad you are against homophobic ‘sermons’ from smiling men in denims. It’s very derogatory of our gay brethren and sisters.
Would you like to tell us where you were at a service where this actually happened?
Last Sunday (Pentecost Sunday) the BBC broadcast the morning service live from the Gas Street Church here in Birmingham. I gather it was an overwhelming success, which had more positive feedback than the religious programmes department have had for a long time, and left the production crew feeling very bowled over – OK, the style is not to my personal taste, but that doesn’t matter. What’s important is that it conveyed the positive joys of faith and worship, part of this ‘quiet revival’ among the young which is growing among us. Be thankful for it – what matters most is… Read more »
As I reflect on my own spiritual experience, while I have a vague memory of my confirmation at the age of twelve, I have no memory at all of any of the content of the confirmation classes (this despite the fact that I know the vicar was a good teacher!). So experientially (I’m not speaking objectively or theologically here), if confirmation was meant to be my own acceptance of the baptismal commitments made by my parents, it was ineffectual. Also, when I look back, I can detect no memory of any difference in my awareness of the Holy Spirit’s presence… Read more »
Thank you for this personal and meaningful testimony.
I appreciate your generous response.
Thankyou Trevor for your observations on hymns and all that goes towards making them suitable in worship. I think you have expressed every view that I have held for years.
I’m just grateful there are just enough in our congregation to make the choice of tune, speed and volume a consideration, not forgetting to let our more recent composers in on the side when they least expect it!.
Yes, it seemed sensible. My rule when an organist was that the vicar chooses the hymns and organist chooses the tunes. There are some very dreary tunes out there. Also do not underestimate the time and effort taken by the organist. It is usually a volunteer position with minimal compensation. It helped my pocket in student days. Yet, in my day, it involved a Thursday choir practice, choosing and learning anthems, organ practice for the voluntary (normally many hours of work per piece over several weeks), possibly a Saturday wedding with learning a piece requested by the bride, which again… Read more »
‘I think preparing a weekly sermon is relatively trivial.’
Preparing a weekly sermon was a 6-8 hour commitment to me, and I built my working week around it. I can assure you, it was not trivial.
Nor is it for me, especially as in my tradition “meaty” sermons are expected, and also we have to build the whole service from scratch every time.
I touched a nerve, without intending to. There is a great variety in sermons, whether a 5 min. for a family service or a biblical exposition lasting 30 mins.
Maybe trivial is the wrong word for many. But i can assure that a major voluntary would take at least 8 hrs of preparation..some much more.
Nigel, I think it is quite legitimate to draw people’s attention to the amount of work involved in being a church musician, without needing to denigrate the dedication and hard work of a preacher.
What is the theological or liturgical purpose of the voluntary? I can understand how a well chosen, prepared and delivered sermon and set of hymns can enhance the spiritual effectiveness of a service. But based on my regular attendance at Salisbury cathedral evensong I struggle to appreciate the voluntary in the same way. It often seems to me to be overloud and bombastic, and not matched to what has gone on earlier. But is that based on my lack of appreciation of its purpose? Five years ago there was a strong expectation that congregation members would always stay in place… Read more »
I guess one size does not fit all.
At an advent evensong, for example, I started with a Alain Fantasie, and the closing was the Alain Trois dances. I was trying to fit the occasion. I would not play those at a morning family service,
Many, many years ago I attended evensong at Salisbury most weekdays and have no memory of organ voluntary However,. at the. Sunday Eucharist there certainly was, and I recall a rather posh bloke smiling and proclaiming that it was a very merry organ this morning, I rather think he went off, did I with quite a spring in his step. As for the sermon, well, it was a long time ago.
When one looks through the music lists at most English cathedrals, it is evident that great care is taken over the choice of the organ voluntary and, almost invariably, there’s a theological link to the Church’s seasons or a major feast day like Easter and Pentecost for which there is a considerable organ repertoire. Unfortunately this may not be understood or appreciated – possibly a short descriptive explanation would help listeners. Unfortunately it’s many years since I attended Salisbury Cathedral (I knew Richard Seal well) but always found the service music and voluntaries to be exemplary. The same could equally… Read more »
I think with all things there are those that put effort in and prepare and those that don’t. I have heard sermons and organ voluntaries of both ilks. Although I do wonder if many priests are compelled to get up in the middle of the night to pen their sermons as some cathedral organists are required to do to practice their voluntaries!
Yes, many times I used to crawl out of the church on a Saturday at midnight after practising for the morning service,
For cathedral organists it is more like a job, whereas for many of us it is a weekend volunteer activity.
As you are aware Nigel, the composer of ‘Morning has broken’ intended it to be a hymn. We used to have it in assembly at my school, and I think that that predates Cat Stevens’ rendition.
Yes, it appeared in the Percy Dearmer-edited hymnbook Songs of Praise in the 1930s.
I was not aware! Still seems to me to be a dreary hymn. Just my personal opinion!
A celtic melody, as I recall, arranged rather than composed for the hymn.
Ralph Vaughan Williams collected and arranged many folk-tunes for the original English Hymnal and ‘Songs of Praise’, adapted very successfully for hymns and now the ‘accepted’ tune in many cases.
According to an AI overview which I have just read, ‘Morning Has Broken’ is a hymn set to a Scottish tune as you say. That the lyrics were meant to be a hymn is I think fairly clear. Percy Dearmer has featured in this thread. I think that every school child has benefited from his ‘He who would valiant be’. The original ‘Who would true valour see’ was much less suitable for school use. I can recall that when the original form was sung at a church I went to in Sydney a ripple of laughter went round the (mainly… Read more »
And to come back to the pop song version, Cat Stevens was accompanied by Rick Wakeman – and whilst Stevens became a Muslim (as Yusuf Islam) and stopped performing, Wakeman went on to become … the organist at his local Baptist church.
‘Gaelic’ rather than ‘Celtic’ would have been a better description of the tune’s origin and it is now generally given the name “Bunessan” (from the Isle of Mull).
The author of the words, Eleanor Farjeon, was a well-known English writer and poet in her day, also writing stories and plays for children. As well as ‘Songs of Praise’, “Morning has broken” has made it in the ‘New English Hymnal’ and the Australian hymn book “With one voice”, albeit with different harmonisations of the tune!
Although I have great regard for Percy Dearmer, I for one, not surprisingly, prefer Bunyan’s original words, though of course like some of his other poems they were not written to be sung. I notice some excellent recent hymn books have the original feisty words, for example, our own Church’s “Common Praise” and the 4th edition of the Church of Scotland’s “Church Hymnary”. Neither in Sydney, where I live, nor elsewhere, have I ever heard a ripple of laughter when they are sung. Mr Jones’s experience may not be common.
Yet again John, nice to hear from you through TA. I recall during my very early days in Australia, very much a ‘honeymoon’, attending St James King St for the Sunday evening service. You preached, and your sermon was followed by ‘Dear Lord and Father of mankind’. It was beautifully sung by the choir and congregation. That was when Howard Hollis was vicar. He was of course a church musician of note.
Yes, that is a good hymn, words and music. It flows and has structure. Easy to sing. Music fits the words. Repton by Parry.
Important not to let it drag, then it becomes dirge. Beat is two in a bar, not four in a bar. Although it is marked 4/4.
https://youtu.be/devnqZVK4U4?si=XGuRRF6UQo5prZwI
ps. my grandson is called Elijah, I think he has something to do with these words.
This prompts me to ask whether you remember which tune was used. The excellent Australian hymnal “With One Voice”gives as its first choice ‘Nicolaus’, a Lutheran chorale harmonised by J S Bach, and ‘Repton’ as the alternative tune, making the point that ‘Repton’ requires the last line of every verse to be repeated. Sadly “With One Voice” didn’t really catch on in England, a pity as it has a fine and ecumenical range of hymns, calling itself “a hymnal for all the churches”. I agree that ‘Repton’ has become fairly standard, actually probably invariably across the board in the C… Read more »
Thank you Rowland. It was sung to the tune I understood at the time to be called ‘Judith’. I have learned from AI that ‘Repton’ and ‘Judith’ are one and the same tune.
“…my own experience as an organist is that diffident congregations are better encouraged to sing by a fairly robust ‘accompaniment'”, writes Trevor Thurston-Smith. Absolutely right. I’ve heard congregations practically give up singing if the organist plays too softly – no-one who is not a confident singer wants to hear themselves over the organ.
Agreed. The Mass I attended on Saturday night was very well attended, but the organ (clavinova) accompaniment was so quiet and feeble that it could barely be heard. Consequently, half the congregation didn’t bother trying to join in; apart from one or two brave souls, most of us just gave up half way through the hymns and closed our hymn books.
“At the moment, clergy can’t, but they can be in same-sex civil partnerships; to the world outside the church, that may look odd, but the C of E gets around this by saying that there isn’t any sex in civil partnerships; and, I suppose, logically, that there has to be sex in marriages?” Helen King Yet if one converts a same-sex civil partnership into a marriage, the ‘start’ of the marriage is backdated to that of the civil partnership – even if that date is before the introduction of same-sex marriages. A clergyperson, upon retirement, could do this and thus… Read more »
Time was when confirmation training involved the catechism. Who catechises these days? Perhaps the increasing incoherence of the Church of England might be attributable – at least in part – to the gradual, and now almost complete, disappearance of that custom over the last century (as I think Dr Butler has noted on occasion): https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-christians-abc-9780198206170?cc=gb&lang=en&#
I think the C of E would benefit from a new catechism along the lines of an official ( or at least semi official) Outline of the Faith as understood by the Church of England to put in the hands of enquirers and the basis of other catechetical material. My father b 1912 if asked what a sacrament was would reply “An outward sign etc) as per the Prayer Book. I once prepared an 87 year old for confirmation and a friend accompaning her told me that at his school ( St Paul’s) they were prepared for confirmation using the… Read more »
I do confirmation training where I work in the US. In our case, many people simply are coming from other denominations. The categories confirmation, re-affirmation, reception are operative depending on how adult profession of faith (if relevant) has been made elsewhere. Nevertheless, many opt to do the catechetical part, just because they want to know the content of the faith they confess (and necessary for confirmation). I know the contorted history of confirmation/baptism, but find the catechesis helpful as do those coming. The Outline of Faith in the TEC BCP is very bare bones. I used to try to adapt/edit/supplement… Read more »
The bishop of Oxford has advocated for a new catechism and Pilgrim has one – see here. About The Pilgrim Way | The Church of England
Oh, and there was me thinking the CofE had already adopted a new catechism – isn’t it called the Alpha Curse or something?
Historically there was just one initiation rite which was baptism. It might or might not have included anointing with oil and laying on of hands, depending on where you were – there was much local variation . As one or two have pointed out in this thread, by about the 4th century this rite began to break up in the West, but not in the east, with the result that, sometime later on a separate service of confirmation emerged. There is no confirmation in the early centuries and so it ends up being a rite in search of a theology,… Read more »
The Orthodox communicate babies/ little children true ( though the parents bringing them up often don’t receive as confession before every act of communion is still strongly held. But their baptism rite includes chrismation so the child is confirmed. Of course some clergy do use chrism after baptising see Allan Sheath’s comments above with its implication that the child could/should become communicate ( but I imagine they don’t).
Chrismation is not confirmation. Chrismation was sometimes part of the ancient unified rite but was not always performed by a bishop nor accompanied by laying on of hands. Confirmation is a western invention (by accident).
I think it was invented much earlier in the Acts of the Apostles, where the Apostles laid hands on those who had been Baptised, when I was prepared for Confirmation as an Anglican in the past, the Priest who prepared me Canon Gordan Sealey, read the passage to us Candidates from the Acts of the Apostles and told us Candidates that, that was where the origin of Confirmation began. Jonathan
I am afraid that is incorrect. No NT scholar that I can think of thinks those Acts passages are confirmation – not least because the rest of Acts has the practice of baptism alone. (And there is no confirmation in the post-apostolic rites.) The two Acts passages you refer to are the exception and need an explanation – Lampe thought it was because they mark the Gospel entering new territory. Seeing those Acts passages as confirmation was an interpretation invented by Dix and Mason as far as I can see.
I think Charles is right and that we need to remember the early history of baptism. Thinking back to my own liturgical training, a Sarum College course on rites of initiation with Paul Bradshaw as guest lecturer, it seems to me that the very early church took a lot of its practice from the contemporary mystery religions. The Eucharist was a mystery reserved for initiates and conducted in secret behind closed doors. The initiation rite giving access to the mystery was baptism, which was conducted after a significant period of instruction and preparation. In many mystery religions the candidates would… Read more »
Twenty years after GS issued regulations on admitting children to Communion on the basis of their baptism, the practice still remains within the gift of the bishop. Why, I don’t know. But it does suggest some hesitancy in recognising baptism as sufficient in itself.
Some dioceses also require a rite of admission to Communion on the day, but again, isn’t this questioning baptism’s sufficiency? Surely all that is needed is to give notice that on X Sunday N & N will be receiving their first Communion, plus naming them in the Prayers of Intercession?
Yes i agree – what we have is a C of E fudge! Bishops also tell me they want to keep confirmation so they can visit parishes…
I am following the many comments about confirmation with interest. However, a much more serious issue is that, according to latest Statistics for Mission data, the majority of churches have hardly any children and young people worshiping on a Sunday.
Just a further note. I was impressed with the seriousness with which catechism is taken in the Catholic parish life I experienced in France. With the clergy shortage, laity do a lot of things we associate with ministerial/priestly roles. But not only because of that. To be catechized is to know yourself as a Catholic fidele. You own your identity. Confirmation is the formal, public declaration of that — and this whatever one makes of theology and church historical precedent. But justification along these lines is also to hand, and informs the liturgical service, readings, and so forth. I guess… Read more »
That’s because in the Catholic Church a person is saved not simply by justification by faith, but also by observing the church’s sacraments. In the early church baptism by water as a sign of repentance and baptism in the Spirit were all that was required, and that’s what happened to me. I still remember it as if it was yesterday.
I disagree with this (protestant? self referential? ‘that’s what happened to me’) idea and characterisation.
I doubt a modern Catholic would recognise it *on the terms you use it to make your point.* Without further elaboration.
I also don’t recoginse your appeal to “the early church” against modern Catholic practice.
Perhaps I don’t understand your point.
God bless.
Another role that Confirmation can play in practice, if not in theory, is as a rite to acknowledge adult commitment in a church where infant baptism has been the norm. We have a confirmation service next week. A lot of play is made of young candidates – our oldest is in her 90s, and whatever the theory, it will be meaningful to her as she is confirmed alongside her daughter and granddaughter. We have a second family group too – it is almost as if we are living in the time of Acts where households are referenced more than. once… Read more »
One of the drivers for admission to Communion on the basis of baptism was the pressure to confirm candidates at an ever younger age in order for them to receive Communion. Confirmation – so it was thought – once freed from such pressure could come later to meet a pastoral need. That it hasn’t is a loss.
Allan’s “That it hasn’t is a loss” seems to contradict what Mark Bennett wrote: “Confirmation is a rite that can meet a pastoral need”. I share Mark’s perspective. In a parish that admits baptised children to communion, confirmation is rare because it is now used to mark adults coming to a personal faith, which is rare. The only reason I’m concerned about how few confirmations there are is that it now honestly indicates how rare it is that adults come to faith. That matters. Apart from that, why does it matter that there are few confirmations?
I imagine it matters to those who see Confirmation as a be means of grace and not just a ratification of baptismal vows.
Agree. I can see no reason why confirmation shouldn’t be both a ratification of baptismal vows and a means of grace.
That confirmation hasn’t come later in cases where its use could have fulfilled a pastoral need is where the loss is. An example is the parish church which regularly ‘re-baptizes’ adults who were baptized as children and who now wish to affirm their faith. An act which flies in the face of the entire Western and Anglican canon. Confirmation, for all its confusion, is at least canonical.
Not disagreeing with any of these comments but I’d add that it seems to me that whenever people stand up as adults and say publicly that they want to be Christians that’s something to celebrate (assuming it’s a sensible version of Christianity!) I’d prefer those previously baptised to make use of the available rite of confirmation although if they want to get rebaptised in another church I’d still celebrate the important thing which is their choosing to be a follower of Jesus Christ. In the context of the collapsing of the Western church i wouldn’t worry about canonical purity! Far… Read more »
A “sensible version of Christianity”! Baptism can happen only once and is for life; the bond God forms in baptism is immutable. ‘Re-baptism’ is not only an ecclesial oxymoron; it questions the integrity of every baptism, yours and mine too.
If you’re concerned about some C of E churches re-baptising, and being dismissive of infant baptism, then i agree with you. It’d be just a further example of evangelicals pretending to be Anglican, magpie like. But if someone who underwent infant baptism discovers a faith in the context of another church, say Baptist or New Frontiers or similar, then I’d still see that as mostly positive. Although again I’d want to add the caveat/hope that it’s a step towards a sensible version of Christianity (by which I mean it places at least as much emphasis on the call to imitate… Read more »
A former altar girl of mine joined her Uni CU, where she was ‘re-baptized’, causing hurt to her parents. I rang the Anglican chaplain who told me he had no influence over that particular fellowship, being seen as ‘unsound’ despite his Evangelical credentials.
Last month I had the joy of marrying Jane and her fiance. She’s now returned to “a sensible version of Christianity” and regrets not standing up to those who told her that her infant baptism and teenage confirmation were shams.
Thanks for sharing. That gives useful context to your thoughts on this.
…although I suppose there’s also a question of whether the evangelical experience of the uni CU renewed her commitment to her faith? You say she’s continuing on her faith journey, which is great. I notice that a high proportion of the committed Christians I know, of various theological flavours, including many clergy, seem to have had an evangelical / charismatic boost at some point in their past, even if they have long since left that wing of the church behind. I know I have. As if the zeal developed then continues to motivate us, like a kick up the backside… Read more »
I’m puzzled that the ‘re-baptizing’ parish church I had in mind still continues this practice. Is the bishop unwilling/unable to intervene? Gorham casts a long shadow it appears.
Wishing you a speedy recovery.
Obviously all church music including hymns is, like all music, a subjective thing. As a church musician or minister with responsibility for music one has to discern the difference between complaints of preference and ones of genuine difficulty of access particularly for any congregational singing. For example there is a difference between someone complaining that you have chosen the “wrong” tune to “Love Divine” and people complaining that Hymns were hard to sing due to complex words, rhythms or range. We now have many different types of church music being adapted for congregational singing, some of which is less well… Read more »
There is one thought that has lingered in my mind about Hymns. For starters they certainly play an important part in Christian Worship. It is important to get good hymns into our churches, that reflect good doctrine. I like the Wesley Hymns for example, as there is good Doctrine in these hymns, we sing his hymns in my own church the Roman Catholic Church. I cannot help thinking that a Hymn Book is a Theology Book of the Church, in that people learn their Theology from the Hymns, and in that regard a Hymn Book can be a teacher of… Read more »
That is absolutely right Jonathan. However some of Wesley’s hymns (and others) are so full of theology that they are virtually unsingable! There is a place, I think, for both hymns and songs with ‘heavy’ content and ones of simple devotion.
As a young woman in 1963 I was in a 4-woman TB ward and I was reading Honest to God. The elderly woman diagonally opposite me asked me what my book was about. He’s arguing’ I said ‘that God is not an old man in the sky, but rather the ground of our being.’ ‘But he is’ she replied. ‘Why do you say that?’ ‘It’s in the hymn, isn’t it: There’s a friend for little children beyond the bright blue sky.’
In an essay I wrote as an ordinand, I applied the term ‘insidious theology’ to hymns. Very often, I think, we sing hymns (old and new) without noticing the theology behind the words. One very popular worship song tends to bring people up with a shock as they sing the second verse and realise what they are singing. That can open a good discussion about theology and belief, and I’ve run a discussion group using hymns in that way.
“The wrath of God was satisfied”?
Nigel, I was speaking with my Orthodox Bishop friend, Bishop Raphael a year ago, and in Orthodoxy they are not happy about the Penal Substitutionary theory of the Atonement, nor the Satisfaction Theory that is part and parcel of this, as Orthodoxy has a high doctrine of the Trinity, and they believe this kind of Theology is blasphemous and that it divides the Trinity by setting the Father against the Son, and in its crudest form it can present God as a Hijacker who demands the payment of a Ransom, to redeem us. It is certainly not good theology. Jurgen… Read more »
Very famously (see the Aulen classic treatment of the atonement) the Orthodox lean toward the Christis Victor model (most representative of John’s Gospel). Obviously, Holy Writ has a variety of accounts of the atonement and the interpretative vocation is to see their complementarity.
Moltmann didn’t have an atonement theology covered by Aulen…it was his own ‘God crucified’ model.
I notice that when i preach anything other than substitutionary atonement in a Churches Together context, many seem to be hearing it for the first time. English Christianity seems to have become completely hijacked by the ‘he paid the price for me’ interpretation. What does Alpha teach?
I always thought it was the scorners mentioned in Ps 1 that punish us, because we are trapped in their sin system as well as when like Jesus we propose rebellion from it. Thus Jesus paid that price for us but the twist of His Father being angry at Him (and not at the codependency makers) has been entrenched ever more officially by those same scorners / codependency makers. Original sin is our epigenetic fallback tendency to (often) acquiesce to such neurotic imprisonment rather than show the example of standing up for ourselves in integrity. (Genesis ch 3 doesn’t say… Read more »
“the interpretative vocation is to see their complementarity”
Is this necessarily the case though? Why could one or more interpretation not simply be rejected as wrong? Is that necessarily illegitimate? Even allowing for the metaphorical nature of God-talk. In science a theory is sometimes discarded. Why not in theology?
Some hymns have very questionable theology. I am unable to sing that hymn with ‘meek and mild’ in the words. It is not Christianity, it is Victorian oppression. Luther’s away in a manger is not much better. ‘no crying he makes’??? Babies are meant to cry, good babies cry. If a baby does not cry there is a problem. Did Luther have any babies?
I agree that both hymns are dreadful, but the Luther attribution for ‘away in a manger’ is nineteenth century US invention.
J.B. Phillips in one of his books (I think it was ‘Your God is Too Small’) heavily criticises ‘meek and mild’.
A lot of interesting theological and pastoral reflection here. A wide variety of practice and different understandings. But alas the number being confirmed shrinks more and more and the number of children and teenagers in our churches ( with some exceptions) is small.As in many areas of C of E life we simply muddle through without as far as I can see much theological direction. We become more fragmented. I find it disheartening and I think others do, but I can’t unfortunately see any likelihood of anything much being done about it.
The catechumenate model of staged initiation rites was commended liturgically in 2005 as CW: Rites on the Way; followed later by the Pilgrim course designed to integrate with it. Yet despite the uptake of the Pilgrim course, is anyone using these rites? They represent a radical challenge to our inherited way(s!) of doing things, and 20 years ago I for one could not see a sufficiently large gap between Church and society to justify going down this road. But that was then and this is now. Any thoughts?
Totally agree Perry. Unless there is a positive intention to welcome and provide for families and their children the current pattern will continue. Funding needs to be provided to train family and children’s workers, and to appoint them to churches, who need to see this ministry as the priority. Sadly too many congregations bemoan the lack of children but are unwilling or unable to change.
What is the point of confirming adults who are transferring from another Christian denomination? When I was confirmed into the C of E, having been a professing Christian for some 20 years, I felt I was acting out a lie and betraying my whole Christian background. My parents obviously thought so too, because they disowned me. I have spoken to others with a history as e.g. faithful Methodists or Baptists who have felt similarly. We really need to be more ecumenical.
It depends entirely on the context. The rubrics of the ACNA prayerbook (just to choose one example from others) indicate the varieties of, confirmation, re-affirmation, and reception. A person from another denomination who has made an adult profession of faith, for example, does not need to be confirmed. They can be received. One studies the parallel transitions and, of course, asks what makes the most sense. Many people from other traditions want to be confirmed. Others, no.
That’s very sensible. And very unlike C of E practice.
Why, then, did you ‘transfer’, Janet?
Because I felt God was calling me into a different denomination. But the ASB Confirmation service assumed that: a) I had been baptised as an infant and promises made on my behalf. I was dedicated as a baby and baptised at 17 after giving testimony to my faith b) I had little, if any, adult experience as a Christian. NB I haven’t now got an ASB so can’t check the words, but that’s my recollection. At any rate the service was designed solely for people baptised as babies into the C of E, not for adults transferring from another denomination.… Read more »
These days Common Worship includes a service for reception into the Church of England which you can find here.
https://www.churchofengland.org/prayer-and-worship/worship-texts-and-resources/common-worship/christian-initiation/rites#p211
This references Canon B.28 which is here https://www.churchofengland.org/about/governance/legal-resources/canons-church-england/section-b#b42
Interesting to compare Canon B.28 and the note to which I referred above. https://bcp2019.anglicanchurch.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/23-Confirmation.pdf
Thanks Simon, that’s much better. Pity about the exclusive language, though.
With respect, Janet, I think your memory may be a little faulty. Confirmation is for those who have been Baptised, whether as infants or Adults.
I’m still curious to know why you felt God was calling you into a. different denomination. Was it a hunch, or a mystical experience, or could you give reasons for it? Did you count it a privilege or a duty? As I believe you are Ordained, presumably you had to teach others about belonging to the Church of England as part of the … Church.
‘With respect, Janet, I think your memory may be a little faulty. Confirmation is for those who have been Baptised, whether as infants or Adults.’ I really don’t understand the point you are making here, nor why you assume my memory must be faulty.
I have written at some length about my journey from con evo dyed-in-the-wool Nonconformist to middle-of-the-road Angican, in Faiths Lost & Found (ed Martyn Percy and Charles Foster). It’s too long and complex a story to give here.
Janet, I was not aware of that book. I will put it on my wish list.
I am aware that there are a number of authors who contribute here regularly. It might be fun sometimes to be a little more up front about letting people know what we have written. It helps us build a more rounded picture of each other.
It’s a great book, the stories of a number of Christians whose journey has taken them to a different expression of their faith.
Janet, my wife and I have been thinking about our experience in the other direction. Since I retired we have been attending a Mennonite Brethren church on Sundays, and Mennonites practice believers’ baptism. There is also a defined membership structure (‘members’ and ‘adherents’). It’s a congregational church, so the practice varies from congregation to congregation—and our church tends to be on the progressive end of the MB spectrum, which is a bit unusual—but here is our church’s bylaw about becoming a member: Applicants shall qualify for membership if they 1. Profess faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord and… Read more »
That’s great. And very clear.
As a personal testimony, I was both baptised and confirmed as a baby and an adolescent, without being asked, and whether I wanted to or not. Social form mattered more than my own feelings, leaving me singularly uninspired. Later, after I became a Christian at college, various people in a house church demanded I should be baptised again, as the first one was unbiblical and didn’t count….. Anyway, I duly was. This then opened a hornet’s nest with our new, evangelical vicar – all four of his young men had been re-baptised, which, he said, was throwing God’s grace back… Read more »
What’s in the heart of the individual, in conjunction with the grace they believe is being conferred.
For protestant (Evangelical Lutheran) Germans & Scandinavians confirmation remains very much a coming of age rite of passage for young teenagers, & their pastors still run annual classes for them. The church ceremony is conducted by the local pastor & for the youngsters it is a big day with lots of presents (often money these days) from godparents & relatives. Historically it was connected with being ready to go out in the world in travelling apprenticeships, or as seafarers. Once confirmed the teenagers become adult in religious terms, enjoy religious freedom & cannot be made to do RE at school.… Read more »