Thinking Anglicans

Opinion – 13 March 2019

Women and the Church Transparency or Opacity – declarations, websites and jargon

Jude Smith Christian Today Women priests 25 years on: How are we flourishing?

Miranda Threlfall-Holmes ‘Women’ priests?

Women and the Church 25th Jubilee!

Sarah Mullally Contemplation in the shadow of a carpark  “The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity.”

Jeremy Pemberton Openly The Church of England must break its toxic colonial legacy

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James Lodwick
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James Lodwick

Right on, Jeremy! Excellent and thoughtful article.

CRS
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CRS

Pemberton is right to carefully distinguish US and Scotland in his essay. Burundi, SE Asia, Korea, Egypt, Japan, Central Africa — parts of the Colonial British hegemony? The Communion is not ONLY due to British colonies. Some believe in a Communion precisely to the degree that the colonisation is thankfully over, and a catholic communion is preferable to it. Otherwise, the difficulty for the ABC/CofE to maintain a distinct role in respect of the provinces, given the CofE’s established national church identity–unique amongst provinces–is a point well taken. The CofE may need to free itself from its colonial past, joining… Read more »

CRS
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CRS

Forgive my mis-typing Central Africa instead of Congo — “Province de l’Église anglicane du Congo.”

Jeremy Pemberton
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Jeremy Pemberton

Congo was evangelised by Ugandan evangelists in the NE, notably the saintly Apolo Kivebulaya. The ancestry was pure evangelical protestantism of the CMS variety.

Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

Jeremy Pemberton, “the LGBT+ community faces oppression for the sake of a greater goal – inter-church unity.” Dead on! Pemberton notes the double whammy of neo-colonialism, “Those Anglican churches that are most virulently anti-gay are also financed and resourced by extreme conservative Christians from the United States.” It is a characteristic of western democracies that they advance a domestic conservative agenda using their foreign policies as reward or punishment. Churches do likewise. The relationships of conservative Christian groups in western countries ( not just America) with foreign entities is often connected to their own conservative western domestic agenda. Also, “This… Read more »

CRS
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CRS

Leaving aside the sloppy portrayal of the AC as “This Anglican Communion only exists because of British colonialism,” Are we to believe that 19th century colonial British legal views on homosexuality — where in places of the present AC they were once relevant — were some kind of eccentric British imposition in the colonial period that would otherwise, absent them, have left these regions clear of now modern views on homosexuality? The idea is risible, especially in Muslim regions of the world. And re: the Cof E and the Communion. If the latter is residually Britishly colonial, if and where… Read more »

Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

The article is on target with a sustainable argument. Your comment suggests that Pemberton’s article is of interest to you only to the extent that it provides a jumping off point, no matter how tenuous, to the hobby horse of, “…the case of the CofE, … its own or …the ABC’s role”. The legacy of colonialism is complex, and its effects very far from over. The realignment movement, as it embraces western social conservatives, is a post-colonial phenomenon that has some clear neo-colonial aspects. Christian churches exploited colonialism while at the same time being used as its cultural and politcal… Read more »

CRS
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CRS

“The Church of England must break its toxic colonial legacy” — that is the “sustainable argument” and je suis d’accord.

(as for jumping off, I leave that to you with your ‘realignment’ hair-trigger).

Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

That is not his argument: it is a conclusion derived from his argument. Your comments which are a reprise on past themes of yours suggest there is not much essential agreement between between the two of you. ” Let the AC be a genuine Catholic communion and by no means a vestigially ‘Colonial Empire’ (where that might have some reality).” That looks more realignment lingo than what Pemberton is concerned about for sure. In any event the who ‘ABC role’ mantra has become jejune.

CRS
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CRS

Semantics. The weather up your way must be distracting.

It is an argument with a conclusion. Do you embrace it? Should the CofE focus and itself and “break its toxic legacy”?

Quit dissembling.

No one is speaking of realignment but of coming to terms with the reality Pemberton is underscoring.

Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

Not semantics, but a clarification for you with regard to argument and conclusion. There is no conclusion without first evaluating the argument. I think you have misread his argument in favour of drawing your own conclusions. Not ‘dissembling’, simply dismissing the questions you raise as not that relevant. My views on Pemberton’s article ought to be clear enough from my comments. Really, in your tenacity about small points, I see myself. Wowzers, eh! So last word to you. After all, it is Lent, a time for giving things up. ( :

CRS
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CRS

I agree your views ought to be clear. They aren’t.

Makes you a bad candidate for clarifications…

Pemberton believes the CofE, ABC included, ought not have any role vis-a-vis provinces. It is a colonialism. Colonialism brought anti-homosexual legislation that otherwise would not have/did not exist.

This view represents a realignment, as against the status quo. You hold this view as well.

Jeremy Pemberton
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Jeremy Pemberton

At last Christopher Seitz gets my point. The Communion ought not to have any role vis à vis provinces in an forensic or enforceable sense. This is not a realignment. It is a return to what the AC has always been. The attempt to beef up the Communion culminated in the Covenant, which was resoundingly rejected in England.
A federation of independent Provinces, /national churches who share a common history still has much to commend it. Seitz’s conception does not.

Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

“A federation of independent Provinces, /national churches who share a common history still has much to commend it. Seitz’s conception does not.” Agreed.

CRS
Guest
CRS

I suspect in order to get to this, Pemberton’s point needs to be followed through to its conclusion.

“…the CofE, ABC included, ought not have any role vis-a-vis provinces.”

Then we will have a federation of independent provinces. In two of them, Canterbury and York, the Parliament plays a unique role. Pemberton would have it tell the ABC what to do.

And it is for this reason that he holds the view he does about the ABC in the Communion.

Do you share that view?

Jeremy Pemberton
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Jeremy Pemberton

Christopher, your attempt to follow my point to its conclusion is, to my mind bizarre. The intricacies of English establishment are just that. The Church of England gets all kinds of privileges accorded it by virtue of its established status. Parliament therefore also has a proper role in the life of this established church. There is no American separation of government and religion. But Parliament’s role and say in the life of the C of E has been whittled down over time. However, the interconnection still exists, and is likely to remain if for no other reason than the fact… Read more »

CRS
Guest
CRS

Your language was “telling the ABC what to do” and if you want now to change it, that is important to note.

“There is no separation of government and religion” (religion, meaning the CofE, not all other Christian churches in the UK).

Correct, in the US, Canada and everywhere else throughout the global AC’s 38 provinces: they do not have the unusual arrangements the CofE has within the churches of the UK.

CRS
Guest
CRS

I believe you have a typo.

“the CofE, ABC included, ought not have any role vis-a-vis provinces” is your position.

Thank you for making it clear.

CRS
Guest
CRS

The idea that the Communion is the British Empire may be inaccurate, but one can set that to side. His larger point does not require it.

So you agree with Pemberton’s point that the CofE needs to pay attention to itself and quit with the “colonial” like concerns, and attention to, external provinces?

Father Ron Smith
Guest

There can be little doubt that ‘Victorian Morality’ – as practised and taught by CMS missionaries on the African continent – is the source of continuing sexism and homophobia in those territories. South Africa, in stark contrast, missionised by more catholic Anglican missionaries; has been able to free itself from the over-strictness of conservative understandings of such matters – because of a more humane and justice-centred theological trajectory than has been possible for Con/Evo missionaries to introduce into the local culture. Where other countries of the world have been open up to new insights into the mysteries of gender and… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Guest
Rod Gillis

Ron, interesting point on sources. Here in Canada there are differences among Anglican Indigenous groups depending on whether they were ‘evangelized’ by Anglo-Catholics or Evangelicals. However, colonialism’s tentacles run deep everywhere. There is interesting anthropological research available on the intersection of race, class, and gender across the board in colonialism. I’ve attached a link to an article which,while not addressing Pemberton directly, provides potential insights into sex, gender and colonialism. Back to Pemberton, there is much discussion here among Canada’s First Nations about colonialism and sexuality. Indigenous Christian leadership tends conservative. Younger generations of indigenous peoples connect homophobia with colonialism/Christianity.… Read more »

Janet Fife
Guest
Janet Fife

That’s a good article from Jude Smith. She says a lot in a few words.