Mark Clavier Well-Tempered Formation for Faithfulness (5): Obstacles and Opportunities for Renewal
Nic Tall ViaMedia.News Leaving in Love and Faith?
David Nixon ViaMedia.News The Failure of Living in Love and Faith: a Glimpse of the Blindingly Obvious
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love
We need LLF to continue, just to watch and learn from Helen King processing the process. I think she knew it was a tad bit obvious. But maybe bishops are not entirely to blame for mismanaging the process and the break down in trust.
Not a comment so much as an expression of my huge gratitude for these articles, which I’m still thinking about!
A very helpful article from David Nixon on ViaMedia very carefully articulating the simple paucity of public theology that the bishops seem to espouse. Thank you for publishing it ViaMedia and for linking to it here. I wish I could be as positive about Nic Tall’s piece. I understand how he is approaching things and his unpacking of the long debate is helpful. But I seriously fear that time has run out. The CofE has become an entirely different kind of church to the one that might respond reasonably, and responsibly in the way Nic suggests things might happen in… Read more »
In November of last year I was privileged to attend the joyful enthronement of a Lesbian woman as Archbishop of Wales. That of course would have been inconceivable in England and I believe we need to ask why the sister Anglican Churches in Wales and England have developed with radically different attitudes to Lesbian and Gay Clergy and Laity. The first issue is who is selected to be ordained as Church of England bishops. Why are the majority of Church of England bishops homophobic ? Is this reflective of a homophobic national church of England or does it reflect bias… Read more »
It’s possible that this reflects underlying social differences between England on the one hand and Scotland and Wales on the other.
I wonder how long it’ll be until we just break down and start marrying same-sex couples covertly without giving a damn to the law.
If Anne Lister did it in 1834, then quite frankly, as soon as I can find a partner who’s willing to put up with me for a very long time, I might as well do it too.
I can’t decide what will be more of an issue – finding a vicar who’ll do the ceremony, or finding a partner who’ll be the other half(!)
I think there is a priest in Guildford diocese who may help you. Seems quite open about it.
If you want to confer a legal status you have to give some damns about the law
In England we are used to the idea that if you are married in Church the legal and religious ceremony are combined. But in many countries the legal state ceremony is separate from the religious one. I know a Greek/Italian couple who got married three times: State Roman Catholic and Orthodox.
If a same sex couple get married first in a civil ceremony nothing stops them getting married in church and if this disobedience happened often I doubt very much if Church of England bishops would take disciplinary action. Nothing to stop heterosexual couples taking the same route in solidarity
Yes, a choral evensong in St Edmundsbury Cathedral one Saturday afternoon last summer, with a visiting choir, was the setting for the blessing of a same-sex couple who had got married in a civil ceremony the day before. A large congregation of well-dressed young folk made this feel like a wedding in all but name. So there are definitely creative ways of celebrating a gay marriage in church while remaining strictly within the law.
PLF certainly put some steel down the spines of some inclusive clergy and meant they felt emboldened to conduct stand-alone services. There was nothing new in those. Some Readers are also willing to conduct such services. The bishops know this is going on and I believe some even signpost it (covertly). But this is a million miles from same-sex marriage in church. For that, the quadruple lock must first be removed. I should like to think Parliament would intervene, but it won’t. I’d remove the right of clergy to solemnise marriages of opposite gendered couples until such time as there… Read more »
All these well-reasoned arguments are often beyond my understanding. My thoughts are that we are spending an awful lot of time on what our censuses suggest is about 2% of the population nationally. (OK, they are all people, and of value to God and, hopefully us, but numbers are small.) Dons flameproof jacket. But shouldn’t we move on to other things because…. Secondly, we are NEVER going to get everyone to agree or be happy with any settlement, so why not just give up on trying and leave it to each PCC? And to God? We are in a small… Read more »
The problem is that for many conservatives it is apparently anathema to serve under the authority of a bishop (or Archbishop) who would countenance allowing PCCs or individual priests having that option. They’re demanding the right to trample on everyone else’s conscience or schism without doing any of the difficult work of setting up their own denomination.
Many thanks to Colin for publishing Robert Thompson’s unspoken speech. Very powerful.
This year I celebrate 30 years as an out gay priest in the CofE. I started out as hopeful for the future of queer people in the church. Over those years I have gone through a gamut of emotions as I’ve watched the church blunder its way through this issue: sometimes sad; at other times angry; regularly laughing out loud at the hypocrisy all too evident in it all. As my hopefulness was gradually squashed by the endless equivocation, I now find myself largely indifferent to the bungling bishops and the machinations of Synod. I see the incarnate Lord walking… Read more »
I agree. The CofE has decided to ban gay people’s marriages and green plastic sponges which hold flowers. Meanwhile the majority of the population is indifferent to the obscure ramblings of people who are against gays and sponges. The CofE has become quite ridiculous.
I don’t see the problem with the discouragement for Oasis being used. It is petroleum based and lasts a century or more as dust in our churchyards. Plus there are alternatives. And this is simply following a move by the RHS (even at the Chelsea flower show) back in 2020. The Daily Telegraph and GB News and the rest have all been having kittens about “woke” and “Net Zero”, but they always have kittens about those things. Jacob Rees Mogg paid so little attention that he even put out a video where he managed to reimagine the story as a… Read more »
I’m astonished a “thinking” Anglican watches GB News, Rees Mogg and other propagandists.
You have to know your enemy.
Being petroleum-base is not the issue – we are all communicating on the internet using petroleum-based products and using petroleum-based energy.
The problem is decomposition. Stop using plastic bags and bottles.
I agree, but don’t you remember that we sort of went over to plastic to “save trees”? I think there are too many people out there (some perfectly well-meaning, but not all) who want to make a living out of telling people what to do.
Perhaps ‘a citizenship model of public theology’ (David Nixon) ought to be alert to the concerns of this constituency? Or do only the ‘right kind’ of citizens count in such a model?
I don’t entirely grasp this concept!
Neither do I, and my gut tells me to be sceptical of it. I don’t readily see much grounding for it (AIUI) in the Canon. My superficial understanding is that theology (and thus church life) be shaped to serve the society in which it is set, simply in the condition in which that society is found. But what if society and its citizenry are diverse, fractious, variegated, multi-dimensional? Doesn’t that imply an inchoate, anarchistic public theology, which says everything and nothing at the same time. I’m very confused.
It is not simply the green plastic blocks, that are toxic. Imported flowers are equally toxic. A recent Guardian article has commented on research showing that imported flowers contain a wide range of pesticides and chemicals which are banned in the UK and Europe. “None of the bouquets tested were pesticide-free, but the roses and mixed bouquets contained the most residues. Among those, the analysis found 87 different pesticides, including eight metabolites, roughly equally split between insecticides and fungicides. Of the 79 active substances found, almost a third were banned for use as “plant protection products” in the EU and… Read more »
I suppose it is little surprise that an Anglican blog so easily switches away from a matter of profound social injustice for the safer haven of flower arranging, albeit with a worthy aspect of ecology!
We each speak from personal experience. For me there is a deep connection. As a gay man I know how often straight white men will often speak over me and claim expertise in LGBT issues. And as a gay man I observe how often straight white men will speak over women, and seek to minimise or marginalise what are seen to be women’s issues, such as flower arranging. So if at times I can add my voice to theirs, I think that can be a good thing to do. There are a lot of social injustice issues in flower arranging,… Read more »
Watch it mate! I have been known to shove a handful of daffodils into a jam jar.
Hello Simon,
Point taken but I am sure you know what I mean,
….Deflection as avoidance of issue.
We are both on the same side,
Hi,
From what I know of you, and your writing here, I am sure we are both on the same side. Sorry if my post sounded abrupt.
I am very aware that sometimes, in hindsight, I respond abruptly when a more humorous response might be helpful, but sadly after 20 years of pushing back at gender and sexuality issues in the church, humour might not always be the response that springs naturally to mind.
Best wishes
That’s OK!
You live very near us!
J
Surely Synod ought to be lobbying HM Government if things are as bad as you say. Most people who buy flowers trust the government to ensure that they are safe to use in the home or in church. Flowers in the home also presumably find their way into compost bins. As I said in another thread ‘straining at gnats whilst swallowing camels’.
You are wrong to say the C of E decided to ban gay people getting married. The position on Holy matrimony has always been this way and, I very much hope, it will stay that way. Gay people have civil marriage. Isn’t this enough?
I’m going to take a wild guess and suggest that you were likely among those saying, when equal civil marriage went through parliament, “gay people have civil partnerships. Isn’t this enough?”
Would I be wrong? That was certainly the line many of the bishops took, after having opposed civil partnerships too.
Besides which, enough or not, it’s clearly too much for those who continue to insist that clergy cannot be in same-sex marriages.
Fr Dean , it’s inspiring how you have managed to carry on . I’m afraid I watched the parts of the debate I could bear with a troublesome ear worm of REM ‘that’s me in the corner losing my religion’ …. The bungling bishops have an interesting idea of the value of money raised for the C of E – ( I have recommended UNWRA before) In safeguarding, pay lawyers and reputational management consultants, not victims and survivors. Regarding LLF — if I understand the quoted figures correctly , and I may not- the cost over the last seven years… Read more »
Susanna ( no ‘h’)
I don’t know how you get those figures. The answers to questions stated that “Across 2017-2025 a total of £1,660,000 was spent within the dedicated Team established to work on LLF activity.” There was also the unquantifiable costs of other staff time. In addition the meetings of Synod had a cost.
But the annual total parish share across the Church of England is vastly greater than this. Finance Statistics 2024 (the latest available) gives the total Common Fund paid as £318 million.
[To be precise this excludes the Diocese in Europe and the Channel Islands.]
Thank- you! I have clearly asked the computer the wrong questions or got an AI answer.
I was trying to establish how much was paid by the parishes as current donations as distinct from income from historic endowments and other assets Because 1.6 + million over the LLF enterprise feels a great deal of money, especially if it was basically intended to prove the scheme wouldn’t work, and so was a PR exercise.
It still feels a lot of money, even if not such a large proportion as I wrongly worked out
Hi all. I’m an independent evangelical who comes to this forum respectfully. I don’t want to start a debate, I was just wondering whether you could help me understand you better. One thing we agree on is that we both want to see conservative evangelicals leave the CofE. With a few exceptions, they basically haven’t. I think that is largely because a) many of them would lose their buildings and/or income, and b) they like the status of being part of the national established church. My question to you (coming from genuine curiosity) is what keeps you all in the… Read more »
Thanks. A few guesses: One reason, among many, that conservative evangelicals stay in the CofE could be that they believe that the forms of belief, worship and mission that they treasure are closer to the CofE’s historic identity than the revisionist novelty coming from the ‘progressives’, which they reject as unfaithful. It’s not just ‘We’ve maintained these parishes/churches/endowments for ages and we’re keeping them.’ As for progressives? Well, Maybe: Some are also in financially functional situations into which they have invested much time, love and energy, and no doubt want to retain. A number are in sector ministries funded by… Read more »
Could I help with this Despondent? One reason, among many, that conservative evangelicals stay in the CofE could be that they believe that the forms of belief, worship and mission that they treasure are closer to the CofE’s historic identity than the revisionist novelty coming from the ‘progressives’, which they reject as unfaithful. It’s not just ‘We’ve maintained these parishes/churches/endowments for ages and we’re keeping them.’ As for Inclusive Anglicans? Many stay in the CofE because they believe that the forms of belief, worship and mission that they treasure are closer to the CofE’s historic identity than the Calvinist puritanism coming… Read more »
‘They like the status of being part of the Established Church’ . Careful, you may find yourself hitting too many nails on too many heads. Do keep posting. Your insights are valuable .
Your post reminds me of the famous debate between John Stott and Martyn Lloyd-Jones in about 1967, with Stott arguing that evangelicals ought to stay within the CofE because they would be in a position to influence its theology, and Lloyd-Jones saying that they should leave because the CofE, as a mixed denomination, was doctrinally compromised.
An important ingredient in this whole discussion is ‘How would you define a conservative Evangelical? It’s a bit like trying to catch soot. I became aware at my (evangelical) theological college that there are several branches of the same tree, each of which has its own claim to the truth’. Since then we have had Charismatic Evangelicals, New Wine, HTB, and others including, if course, inclusive Evangelicals, often referred to in TA.
It makes for confusion, and sometimes worse, because loyalties are not always what they seem……
Some of us have.
I did this due to both relocating to an area where evangelical Anglicanism is pretty sparse and difficulties with LLF.
I’m now worshipping at an FIEC church.
FIEC? Isn’t that the bunch who, until recently, not only refused to acknowledge as fellow-Christians ‘those who added’ to Biblical faith (eg baptismal regeneration IIRC), and was a broad anti-RC clause, along with those who took away from same (eg by taking on board Biblical criticism), but also refused any sort of fellowship with those who had fellowship with such? The local FIEC a decade ago wanted nothing to do even with the local Sally Army because they talked to the RC’s….
All the FIECs doctrinal positions and ethos statements are on their website for anyone to read.
Basically FIEC churches are happy to collaborate with like minded churches who agree with their gospel convictions.
That’s led to collaboration with Anglicans and others through gospel partnerships.
I’m thankful that our church is pretty willing to do this.
Many Anglicans avoid further schism and rightly or wrongly are not congregationalist
I suspect Establishment and the whole way the C of E is governed plus the buildings factor ( and a fair degree of parish autonomy ) keeps us together. Livlihoods etc for clergy in post plus inertia of course! But also the sense many clergy have of pastoring their flock most of whom are unlikely to move elsewhere, and not leaving them. Eamon Duffy’s vicar of Morebath is instructive …keeping to his people through all the Reformation changes. Manning ( later convert Cardinal ) wrote to Gladstone at the time of the Gorham Judgement when some were thinking about a… Read more »
“Are we bold enough to recover a common life that forms Christians together, imaginative enough to see our inherited practices as gifts rather than constraints, and faithful enough to reorder our life so that belonging, formation and witness can truly flourish in our day?” asks Mark Clavier; promising to attempt an answer in the next instalment. He is of course writing about Anglicanism, not just the CofE, but am I alone in seeing a large and very English elephant in the Well-Tempered room: the HTB effect and how we live with it? By ‘we’, I mean those unfashionable parishes… Read more »
A clergy friend told me he asked some newly-ordained young ministers at a HTB plant what they were doing for Lent. One replied “What’s Lent?”.
I’m afraid in P.O.T. I had a young priest who asked “What is Epiphany”
I simply do not believe the first story, as told here. But I do believe yours. What was the question about exactly – liturgy, theology, spirituality, church history? My wife and I – with 70+ years of ministry experience between us, including teaching theology – had exactly this discussion about Epiphany at our breakfast table in early January. I was a very young ordinand and look back at the huge amounts I had to learn. I am grateful there were people I knew I could ask rather than hide my ignorance in embarassment. I hope, in my turn, I have… Read more »
Actually it was about our January meeting scheduled for January 6 th. I asked if this was a problem for anyone who might perhaps be involved in an evening service.Why should it be a problem the young priest asked. Well it’s epiphany I replied. His response followed. None of the ten or so had any problems….no evening service ( or no service) to cause a problem.
Do you not think that Christianity is a bit more than knowing the church year?
Yes, but I would expect any C of E clergy person to be familiar with the basics of the church calendar and sufficiently acquainted with both Common Worship and the BCP to lead worship using either.
Of course. But we are a liturgical church and entering yearly into the mystery of Christ by following the Christian Year is a long-standing and for me at least a helpful way of bringing depth to my spirituality…and a well tried Anglican one.
One of my near contemporaries in the Guildford diocese was most put out when her training incumbent declined her request to have Holy Week off to go skiing in Klosters. She apparently protested “it’s not my fault Easter is so early this year!”.
Fathers, surely you know ‘events’ are where it’s at, not the Church Year? But we do have something HTB doesn’t: faith in sacramental realism, beauty, ritual, silence – presence over performance, formation over technique, liturgy over curated experiences, priests as stewards of the mysteries rather than religious entrepreneurs. That’s the ideal – if it’s to be a reality, maybe HTB can show us how to inhabit it with confidence.
Sacramental realism? What on earth does that mean?
Beauty, ritual, silence – all good, but not specific to Christianity
Performance, technique, experience – what is the problem?
Priests as stewards of the mysteries – no thank you.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your priorities, but to impose them on all, and not recognise the rich contributions of evangelicals over the ages, is maybe not very inclusive?
I’m trying to fast from my smartphone, but I feel your post demands the courtesy of an answer. Sacramental realism? What on earth does that mean? Sacraments as divine gift rather than symbols of human meaning. In short, God is at work in them, even if you don’t feel it. Beauty, ritual, silence – all good, but not specific to Christianity. I didn’t say they were. Performance, technique, experience – what is the problem? No problem for HTB. Priests as stewards of the mysteries – no thank you. See 1 Corinthians 4:1. This does not mean usurping what belongs to the whole Church. I… Read more »
LOL!