The Church Mouse Who’s who in the new look Gafcon setup
Peter Carrell Anglican Down Under Why we need the Archbishop of Canterbury to lead Anglican Communion (and bonus Easter reflections)
Mark Clavier Well-Tempered Formed for Faithfulness (13): Renovating for Faithfulness
Nigel Biggar The Critic The case against Project Spire
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Incarnation, Transfiguration, Crucifixion, Resurrection
In many ways my beliefs are quite similar to Colin’s. The church I lead (serve) has a daily time called “Silent Together”. I don’t think Colin is promulgating anything very unusual. Faith deconstruction is not uncommon, see for example Nomad podcasts. But it’s rarely actively encouraged within the institution of the C of E, even though I believe it would resonate with much of the wider population more than traditional Christianity does. Perhaps Colin and those with a similar outlook should just accept that the C of E is not the place to expect to find it. But, yes, that… Read more »
HTB has been going on for 50 yrs – and the people turning up are not just the young. But the heart is central to Christian faith and the way the heart is changed is through the Holy Spirit. Jesus likened this to being born again. The Alpha Holy Spirit day and teaching is at the centre of all that drives the HTB – type environment. That’s why it is so successful and increasingly so – it changes people’s hearts, minds and lives, young and old. This is the resurrection life – our future living hope lived in the present… Read more »
Emotional manipulation ≠ the Holy Spirit.
Also “increasingly so”? Evidence? HTB’s influence has spread itself through the CofE over the last 3 decades, without any apparent impact on declining attendance.
There’s no evidence that HTB churches have growing congregations, because the CofE doesn’t generate data split by church-type, despite collecting attendance figures for every church in the land. It’s striking that CofE does not analyze attendance versus type of church as the data could easily be collected, and given its obvious use, you have to ask why it isn’t.
Assuming it showed larger HTB congregations, we’d no doubt hear that’s because they are located in areas with more promising demographics – which could be addressed by comparing numbers in churches with similar demographies.
What we would need is not just attendance analysed by church type but also some measure of migration between churches. (Janet makes a similar point below.) I think the anecdotal observations that HTB church plants grow, often massively, compared to the previous CofE presence, is strong enough actually to be regarded as fact rather than anecdote. First question: how much of this is from new converts and how much from drawing in existing churchgoers from surrounding areas, to the numerical detriment of other churches? Second (follow on) question: if HTB churches are effectively not parish churches but churches serving a… Read more »
I don’t think it would be easy to collect data split by church type or churchmanship, because it’s too difficult to define those categories, except in the most extreme cases. There’s a lot of overlap, and also a lot of divergence within many parishes.
I don’t even know how to define myself – not that I think it matters,
There are all kinds of factors involved in growth as you point out. There was some analysis as few years ago that I can’t now find. It showed that generally the promised growth predicted for those plants was usually overstated. But there was significant growth. Breaking it down (from memory) around 30% was transfer growth from other churches, but around 30% was new converts. So the claim there has been no impact on overall growth is not supported by the evidence.
Thank you rerum novarum for the suggestion. I think analysis by “type” would be interesting to explore (though someone would need to resource the work, of course). It wouldn’t be an entirely straightforward piece of research, for reasons including those noted by other already. Currently, I do not have a listing of each church (or parish) with it’s “type”; and, like Janet Fife, I am not certain that “type” is necessarily well defined. It’s likely very clear for some churches, and unclear for others; the answer could depend on who was asked, whether it related to the incumbent, the style… Read more »
‘Emotional manipulation ≠ the Holy Spirit.’
Self-evident truth.
But if the totality of HBT’s endeavours is being described or dismissed as ’emotional manipulation’, I wonder if this isn’t just a lazy and imperceptive slur, which fails to engage with the thick complexity of what charismatic (and other) churches really are.
I’ve seen emotional manipulation at work in the smallest, blandest church communities you could possibly find, as well as in the bright, shiny hype-factories of the Spirit.
I was specifically referring to the Alpha “Holy Spirit Day” which is a transparent attempt to induce a “spiritual” experience by emotional manipulation.
It seems legitimate to make the accusation of emotional manipulation if “the Spirit moving” seems to require creating a certain atmosphere involving music and group dynamics of others speaking in tongues etc, which was what I experienced (and fell for) as a teenager in the 1980s. Has Alpha moved on from this? No idea. But I’d have thought the Spirit is active wherever people are acting in ways inspired by the teaching and example of Jesus. Music and speaking in tongues seems irrelevant to me. So what actually happens on an Alpha HS weekend?
Adrian: John 3.3,5,6 Jesus answered, ‘In very truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he has been born again.’ ‘In very truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born from water and spirit. Flesh can give birth only to flesh; it is spirit that gives birth to spirit.’ Well, maybe this text provides support for your claim that the Holy Spirit is the way in which the heart is changed. What the Holy Spirit seems unable to do in HTB churches and plants is help the leaders… Read more »
I’m not clear what you’re saying, Adrian. Are you disagreeing with my suggestion that we should accept and indeed celebrate the variety of spiritualities found within the C of E? If it works for you, great. My point was that HTB-style is good for some, or for some for some part of their life, but that others need something different. Personally I can’t bear charismatic worship but it seems more productive to celebrate that there’s a variety of styles available for a variety of people than just insisting that our own way is best for everyone.
Nigel, thank you for your thoughtful comments on my blog. My vocation as an activist in the Church of England has clearly been not to accept that this denomination is not the place where I would expect to find justice and equality for LGBTQIA+ people, or women, or people of colour or those living with disabilities, or where abuse and prejudice are widely accepted and tolerated. Tolerance is not a Christ-like virtue! I am intolerant of prejudice and abuse – and also of impoverished spiritual, theological and liturgical environment which I have found in my exploration of varieties of churches… Read more »
I agree. The bishop once told me that St Michael-le-Belfrey – then a major centre of charismatic worship – had increased the spiritual temperature of every other church in the area. That was partly because St Mike’s was generous in lending gifted people to other churches for missions, workshops, and special services. But it was even more due to the number of people who had been converted or found blessing at St MIke’s, and then been disillusioned or grown out of it, and started attending their local church.
The evangelical love of shortening saints’ names is very funny. I hope converts found a home in St Jonny’s, St Nic’s , St Lizzie’s or St Frankie’s after leaving St Mike’s.
A lot of customs are ‘funny’ to those who don’t share them, so every branch of the Church has ‘funny’ customs. Shortening saints’ names sometimes indicates disrespect – but much more often it’s a sign of affection. And it has a long tradition: the beloved St Cuthbert has for many centuries – long before evangelicals existed – been known as ‘Cuddy’ in the northeast of England.
Here in Edmonton, Alberta, I led a monthly communion service at St. Joseph’s Auxiliary Hospital (an RC-run care centre, mainly for seniors) for over twenty five years. St. Joseph’s was universally known by everyone, Catholics and others, as ‘St. Joe’s’, and i can assure you the abbreviation is entirely a sign of the deep affection we all have for the place and the people who work there.
While not quite the same thing, a local RC high school is officially Monsignor Bonner-Archbishop Prendergast (the two names date from the days of single-sex education). It is always referred to as “Bonner-Prendie” in conversation.
Whilst I have no experience of HTB itself, we have a local plant. This plant was in previously high church parish & unsurprisingly the few remaining of that ilk either gave up, or changed to another anglo-catholic church. What was notable was that the HTB plant made early & serious efforts to palm-off all the Care Homes in their parish to adjacent parishes, a move that for once united High church & Conevo vicars in firm rejection. So services may be good, holy spirit may move, but elderly & infirm appear to fall into too difficult category.
And how are they at taking funerals for parishioners who don’t attend church? I think I know the answer.
There have been many comments on HTB plants, some for and against but there needs to be recognition of the many examples of diocesan grafting/planting. I am aware of several examples within my own diocese in England where faithful sisters and brothers in Christ have been willing to leave their cosy church family to join another church family, leaving friends behind in the service of Christ. In some cases this has involved moving house, children moving schools, even changing jobs, all to further the gospel. I have read somewhere that all churches with a usual Sunday attendance of more than… Read more »
No doubt changing home, schools, house, and job in order to switch from one church to another is brave. But it might perhaps seem less destructive to stay in one’s parish.
How is it “destructive” to sacrificially move to another church where the increased in number means that there are people to run a crèche on Sunday, to be the treasurer, to serve coffee, to run a warm spaces event each week, and so on?
Well, running the crèche, serving the coffee, etc, is constructive, of course. Dismantling home and school and job is not.
I don’t view it as “dismantling”, but changing. Being prepared to make sacrifices for the sake of the gospel. Do we not expect ordained clergy to move, to change homes, their children to change schools, their partners to change jobs, to move away from family etc. Is it the case that sometimes we are too attached to our homes, our jobs, our income, our wealth?
https://togetherforthecommongood.co.uk/uncategorised/long-term-leadership
I knew Hugh at Cambridge. he was a remarkable chap, potential Bishop material. Got a starred first in theology.
Also remember he recommended Daniel to our college group weekly bible studies, which raised some eyebrows.
Church Mouse very clearly lays out, with evidence, what has long been talked about, that the GAFCON movement is not a “global” grassroots movement, but something planned and controlled by mostly American conservatives (and allies in Canada and England).
Within the last year, the Anglican Church of Canada has elected three diocesan bishops of African origin (two Zimbabwean, one Congolese), all in dioceses which have provision for same-sex marriages. That should bring a new dynamic to the next Lambeth Conference, in interactions between North American and African bishops.
I’m not entirely convinced by Bishop Carrell’s claim that Peter’s speech in Acts 2 cries ‘Nuts!’ to those who believe in a non-physical Resurrection and consider that to have been the belief of the earliest Christians – or raises that cry more firmly than other passages. This sect must convince itself that a human person and a human organism are so far from the same thing that we could regard the person of Jesus as living again – through others – even though it now has nothing now to do with the organism once associated with it, so the lifeless… Read more »