Thinking Anglicans

Opinion – 16 June 2021

Helen King sharedconversations Rewriting your history: thinking about the Winchester case

Nicholas Henshall ViaMedia.News Making Ourselves ‘Other’

David Goodhew The Living Church Beijing’s Man in the Anglican Communion

Christina Beardsley Unadulterated Love Trans leaders and CA England advise Bishop of London a working group to consider gender identity and transition is unadvisable

Archbishop Cranmer Who wrote the ‘Dirty Dossier’ on the Dean of Christ Church, Oxford?

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Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

I’m open to correction but aren’t stoles supposed to conform to the liturgical colour of the season or day? The Canons of the C of E seem to have been watered down to allow all kinds of options in present times. Photographs of recent deacon ordinations on Wikipedia show red at Canterbury, most others, specifically Petertide, white or gold. I remember reading a canon lawyer stating that the stole was the primary, i.e., principal, priestly vestment and should not carry any kind of its wearer’s personal message or symbolism other than a cross (or, perhaps, IHS although uncertain about the… Read more »

FrDa
FrDa
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

One shouldn’t worry too much about weighty matters like scarves and stoles. Many newly-ordained CofE ministers will quickly abandon priestly garb in favour of T-shirts and jeans to lead their worship meetings, since they don’t really believe in Anglican ordination anyway.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  FrDa
4 months ago

I felt we deserved some relief from the sheer exhaustion (and dare I say a certain amount of acrimony) of the previous Ch Ch thread. Now ‘Archbishop Cranmer’ has filled any gap left by that.

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

I can see the argument that red is appropriate as it symbolises the Holy Spirit Whom the Bishop asks to be sent down upon the ordinands. I know of one ordinand who wore a preaching scarf rather than a stole in keeping with his low church convictions. I think ordaining Bishops should accommodate that.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Simon Bravery
4 months ago

An interesting comment. For about 20 years I played the organ for one of the morning services, Communion with hymns, at a church which used Eucharistic vestments. With the arrival of a new vicar the vestments were abandoned but he always wore a stole of the ‘correct’ colour over cassock and surplice.

Mark Bennet
Mark Bennet
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

From the guide to ordinations provided by the Liturgical Commission found at the end of the Common Worship Ordination Services Study Edition p164f various options are possible but “As with all arrangements for the service, the final decisions about vesture are taken by the diocesan bishop in consultation with the bishop who is to preside.” Both Red and White are noted as possibilities for the liturgical colour. There is a suggestion that Red is particularly appropriate for Petertide and White for Michaelmas, but I was ordained in white at Petertide, and I think that is quite common. Since a stole… Read more »

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Mark Bennet
4 months ago

Having, in a sense started this discussion, I don’t want to monopolise this thread. I’m very surprised that the stole has no mandatory status. I have never attended a baptism or marriage where the priest failed to wear a white stole. As a purely incidental aside, the priest who baptised me 79 years ago wrote in a book that he and a group of clergy met Percy Dearmer who spoke about ‘proper’ clerical dress. I’m pretty certain that Dearmer would have known, and used, liturgical colours! But what you say does seem to support that + Tim Dakin acted properly… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

Cassock, surplice, and scarf is more traditional than stole in the Church of England. I was taught that stoles, along with other vestments, were a Tractarian innovation. I stand open to correction if this is wrong!

At any rate stoles are very common now. I welcome the enormous variety in designs, especially personalised design. I think it speaks of the fabulous creativity of God. God doesn’t smother our individuality and I don’t think the Church should either.

David Emmott
David Emmott
Reply to  Janet Fife
4 months ago

It depends how far you go back! Stoles and the other vestments go back hundreds of years: the reformation marked a break with tradition. Fortunately we have recovered more of a sense of this tradition and the C of E officially sees no doctrinal significance in the form of vesture. What I think is unfortunate is ordinations where some candidates are vested in stole and others in black scarf. To me it suggests that they are being ordained to different orders.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  David Emmott
4 months ago

Yes David. Many in the congregation esp visiting not particularly churchy “supporters ” wonder why. Consecrations too. I remember here in Canterbury a German couple asked me why the newly consecrated were in black chimeres and the other bps in red. Were they to be junior bishops. The outward and visible impact on people perhaps more than we realise.

Father David
Reply to  Perry Butler
4 months ago

It all depends on which Province you are in. Newly consecrated bishops in the Southern Province wear black chimeres whereas those to be consecrated bishop in the Northern Province wear red chimeres. I have no idea as to why the two Provinces of Canterbury and York operate this differentiation between black and red robes at episcopal consecrations.

Simon Kershaw
Reply to  Father David
4 months ago

It was true until recently that episcopal consecrands (is there such a word?!) in the southern province would wear black chimeres. However, at recent consecrations they have worn red chimeres, like their northern cousins. See for example this consecration last July of the new Bishop of St Germans https://trurodiocese.org.uk/2020/07/bishop-hugh-is-consecrated-at-lambeth-palace/

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Simon Kershaw
4 months ago

I was almost afraid to comment further on this subject in view of the stern strictures lower down on this page, but I’m glad to see that it still has editorial sanction.

Father David
Reply to  Simon Kershaw
4 months ago

Good gracious, I actually watched the consecration of the Bishop of Lewes in Lambeth Palace Chapel, who was to be my Suffragan Bishop when I was Rector of Bexhill, also Fr. Will succeeded me as Rector of St. Margaret’s Heath, and I failed to take on board that he was indeed wearing, like the Bishop of St. Germans at his consecration, a red chimere. Perhaps I should have gone to Specsavers!

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  David Emmott
4 months ago

I see it as an expression of the diversity of the Church of England. Visitors unfamiliar with our ways simply need to be told that this is the outward and visible sign of the fundamental truth that we can’t agree on anything. They should then be told that certain ordinands are being ordained by different bishops at different services. This is because:- (1) they think the local Bishop is wrong about women priests ( for Catholic reasons) or (2) they think the local Bishop is wrong about women ministers ( for conservative evangelical reasons). Whether they choose to darken the… Read more »

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Simon Bravery
4 months ago

Indeed Simon. Or a confirmation with two bishops of different integrities confirming their own. I notice Fr David that the red chimeres in the Northern Province doesnt always operate, Fr Philip North was consecrated in a black chimere.
Of course these things are very secondary but in a small way they demonstrate the increasingly centrifugal forces in the C of E. As we decline numerically and ask ourselves are we financially viable we become ever more diverse and strangers to one another. Morale in many places is not high.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Janet Fife
4 months ago

My belief, and I accept your right to differ, is that the stole is a sacramental vestment, indeed the principal one, and not to be worn at non-sacramental services where, of course, surplice scarf and possibly hood are proper. The stole is a symbol of priesthood, not of the individual wearing it. The designs on sale at Wippells conform to this.

Whether this is Tractarian ‘invention’ I do not know. Interesting that on the same thread David Emmott and Father Stanley take opposite views about the scarf at ordinations. But that is the nature of discussion on TA.

David Emmott
David Emmott
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

Not necessarily. I thought Fr Stanley was suggesting scarf and hood should be the universal style for ordinations. While I prefer stole (or even stole and chasuble) I think that uniformity is best, so either all in stoles or all in scarf.
(Isn’t it interesting why discussions on tat proliferate while more serious issues don’t always provoke comment?. Or maybe it’s because some of us are hesitant to rush in where angels fear to tread.)

Stanley Monkhouse
Reply to  David Emmott
4 months ago

I didn’t think I was suggesting that, David E. I thought I was merely saying that choir dress (full surplice) always looked seemly. At ordinations I’ve attended, as well as ordinands in scarves and stoles, there have been priests/deacons in surplices, plain cottas, “tastefully” lacy cottas, and cottas that would not be our of place in a sex shop. At Lichfield in 2018, candidates were asked to wear surplices, but for those already ordained it was cottas. Silly, if you ask me. Some might see choir dress as “lowest common denominator” but it’s undoubtedly C of E. Standardisation might be… Read more »

Raffa
Raffa
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
2 months ago

There should be no stoles or Eucharistic Vestments or mitres in the Church of England. They were banned at the reformation. It was only in the 1800s that these vestments started to make their way into the CofE again. I almost think Evangelicals have now given up their opposition. Look at Welby? A disgrace.

Simon Kershaw
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

I think there is no canonical or legal framework for liturgical colours in the Church of England. Liturgical colours are indicated in Common Worship and are entirely advisory.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Simon Kershaw
4 months ago

Well, liturgical colours in the C of E were around long before ‘Common Worship’; was it merely ‘custom and practice’? If so, some source – possibly lectionaries? – was consistently followed in cathedrals and most parish churches for altar frontals, etc., as well as Eucharistic vestments in those places where they are used. For the latter, the colours should be ‘correct’ even if they are not mandatory.

Stanley Monkhouse
Reply to  Simon Kershaw
4 months ago

Simon K, my understanding is that you are correct. There are only customs. I’m at heart a Wesleyan who likes to dress up, but I think ordination in cassock, surplice (full length), scarf and hood (under the scarf please) looks most seemly. This combination is often worn by Evangelical ordinands at ceremonies with others in stoles. It is certainly canonical. There is nothing new about the lack of standardisation. At his consecration as Archbishop in 1559 Matthew Parker was vested “in a Linen Surplice (as it is called). The Elect of Chichester in a silk cope ready to celebrate the… Read more »

John Wall
John Wall
Reply to  Stanley Monkhouse
4 months ago

Things are simpler in the Episcopal Church. When I was ordained almost 50 years ago, the color for ordinations was white; at some point it changed to red. In either case, the practice seemed universally followed. I would be very interested in an account of when the practice of using colors of stoles to reflect the seasons of the Church Year or specific kinds of occasions, like ordinations, funerals, etc. was recovered in the Church of England. The standard clergy attire during worship immediately post-Reformation seems to have been black cassock, white surplice, and black tippet, perhaps augmented by an… Read more »

Will Richards
Will Richards
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

Canon B8.1 “The Church of England does not attach any particular doctrinal significance to the diversities of vesture permitted by this Canon, and the vesture worn by the minister in accordance with the provision of this Canon is not to be understood as implying any doctrines other than those now contained in the formularies of the Church of England.” Meanwhile, while everyone has gone for stoles in Winchester like the proverbial ecclesiastical Kamakazi pilot, not a word has been said about the Dirty Dossier at Christ Church, Oxford in the Archbishop Cranmer piece. Presumably, goodness, truth and justice no longer… Read more »

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Will Richards
4 months ago

On reflection you may agree that your implied criticism of other TA contributors was a little premature. The Cranmer article appeared here at 11 am today, and usual TA discussion has started – see below. It is a mistake to assume that other contributors here are less concerned than yourself about what is happening at Oxford. There are 233 comments on the previous thread, which is also still current today. The subject of stoles, surely harmless in itself, arose from Helen King’s article on this page.  As is not unusual on TA, people, including yourself, have come up with different answers,… Read more »

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Will Richards
4 months ago

There must be over a thousand comments on TA by now on articles about the Christ Church situation.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
4 months ago

You have put it more tactfully. I did not want to offend Will Richards, but I happen to be one of the people who has some inkling about the matters reported by Archbishop Cranmer yesterday, and they are not new. The question of irregularities in the preparation of the risk assessment(s) was discussed on earlier TA threads, and, e.g., David Lamming’s questions as quoted by Archbishop Cranmer had already been asked on TA. Cranmer has brought it to the attention of a wider audience.

Kate
Kate
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
4 months ago

Yes, but is that a bad thing?
 
What is interesting to me is how little support there is here for the actions of the Governing Body. That suggests to me that, whatever happens, Christ Church has a PR disaster on their hands which will negatively affect benefaction for years to come.

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Kate
4 months ago

From my perspective, yes. There are many victims of injusdtice and oppression and all of them are important, but TA appears to be obsessed with one instance taking place at a wealthy and privileged institution as far removed as possible from the poor and needy. TA readers often criticize evangelicals for focussing on ‘leafy suburbs’ and a well-healed clientele. Well, pot, meet kettle.

(ducking and running for cover)

Charles K
Charles K
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
4 months ago

I completely agree. Frankly – who cares about the colour of stoles when there is so much injustice not just in the church but in our communities. Rural communities plagued by loneliness and isolation, market towns whose high streets are decimated and cities where more people are dying because of knife crime than Covid. The dirtiest dossier will be written about our inaction to respond to the social needs which are right in front of our eyes because we were too bothered about ecclesial choreography rather than human need.

Stanley Monkhouse
Reply to  Charles K
4 months ago

Let us not labour under the misapprehension that the C of E should concern itself with ordinary people in ordinary places. It never has. Catholics and Methodists, perhaps.
Yes, I know it’s a tired joke but I like it: Methodists rescue you from the gutter; Baptists save you; Presbyterians educate you; Episcopalians introduce you to society; Methodists rescue you from the gutter again.
Are killjoys to deny me a bit of fun by telling me that the church milliner is of no import? Pish.

C R SEITZ
C R SEITZ
Reply to  Stanley Monkhouse
4 months ago

In the New World context: Baptists took the Gospel west on foot, Congregationalists (and Methodists) on horseback, Presbyterians waited for the train, and Episcopalians for the club car on the train.

Oliver Nicholson
Oliver Nicholson
Reply to  C R SEITZ
4 months ago

The untruth of that is exemplified by James Lloyd Breck, founder of S. Columba’s Gull Lake MN and by Bishop Whipple, first bishop of Minnesota, who built a seminary ,a school, an Indian Mission and much else, including the first purpose-built cathedral in the United States, at Faribault MN.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
4 months ago

Gosh, Tim, I wanted to use that expression the other day but I’m told it’s no longer politically correct (the full unedited version) and the consequence of saying it might be more like “jumping out of the frying-pan, (etc.)”.

Kate
Kate
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
4 months ago

As humans we don’t have the capacity to familiarise ourselves with every injustice. Inevitably some will come to our attention – and some won’t. So long as we don’t go out of our way to look for privileged examples, does it really matter which we react to so long as we do react to those we do become familiar with? And, yes, action is better than words but I for one have so far failed to identify any helpful actions I can reasonably take.

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Kate
4 months ago

‘Inevitably some will come to our attention – and some won’t.’

And inevitably, given human nature, the injustices that grab our attention will be the ones that involve rich and prestigious institutions close to the corridors of power, and people with salaries considerably above the national average.

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
4 months ago

I’m unable to open or read Helen King’s blog. Is anyone else having this trouble?

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Helen King
4 months ago

Thanks Helen, but it still won’t open. Message ‘Safari is unable to read this page’

Kate
Kate
Reply to  Janet Fife
4 months ago

Opens ok for me

Kate
Kate
4 months ago

‘the House of Bishops is keenly aware of the intensity, hostility and acrimony of debates about gender identities and transition and how damaging this can be to trans people. The Church cannot simply stand by and allow such a dynamic to exist.’
 
The solution is simple and doesn’t need a new working group: simply recognise that trans men are men and trans women are women and everything falls into place.

Christopher Shell
Christopher Shell
Reply to  Kate
4 months ago

Let’s imagine two principles: Principle A and Principle B. Principle A states that fiat or assertion can make things be true. So if I say I am a 6foot Chinese woman, may saying so can make it be true that I am indeed a 6foot Chinese woman. Principle B states that fiat or assertion always makes things true, without any exceptions. Principle A is untrue by virtue of there being so many (limitless) obvious counter examples. You are asserting not Principle A but the even more extreme Principle B, such that *anyone* who asserts that they are a man or… Read more »

Kate
Kate
Reply to  Christopher Shell
4 months ago

I am saying that sex is complicated and the person who knows is the person themselves.

Stephen Griffiths
Stephen Griffiths
Reply to  Kate
4 months ago

Angela Tilby has an interesting word about this in her Church Times column. She highlights the view that we are ‘never sufficient unto ourselves’, we need to understand ourselves in a context bigger that our subjective self.

Richard W. Symonds
Richard W. Symonds
4 months ago

Re: Archbishop Cranmer Who wrote the ‘Dirty Dossier’ on the Dean of Christ Church, Oxford?

“Christ Church, Oxford, is being challenged to reveal who produced controversial safeguarding documents aimed at its Dean, the Very Rev’d Prof. Martyn Percy. The unattributed Risk Assessment relates to the Cathedral and bears the official logo of the Church of England, but it has proved impossible to determine who wrote it”

“it has proved impossible to determine who wrote it” !

Oh, come on – impossible ?!

That’s impossible to my mind.

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
4 months ago

Presumably Professor Percy could make a complaint to the Thames Valley Police about the dubious risk assessment and then they could interview the person who submitted it as part of the CDM process under formal caution; and ask questions about its provenance. If they believe that it constitutes an offence under the Forgery Act then the Police can ask the Crown Prosecution Service to consider bringing criminal charges.

Martin Sewell
Martin Sewell
Reply to  Fr. Dean Henley
4 months ago

The problem is always with Intent. If the police think it is dodgy but not on balance provable they will, understandably not be inclined to expend public funds on it at that stage. They may review that decision should more information come to light.

Meanwhile they will not share information. This is my experience in such matters. It is is frustrating but ‘ That’s the way it is”.

The Church needs to own its own problems and insist on proper explanations with evidence. These are Church Officers trusted to act with probity ( stop sniggering at the back).

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
Reply to  Martin Sewell
4 months ago

The burden of proof is quite high in criminal matters but as you imply the Church has behaved shabbily here and with no apparent prospect of putting that right. The bishops are sadly milquetoast and won’t call out the bullies – which paradoxically is another form of bullying.

Richard W. Symonds
Richard W. Symonds
Reply to  Martin Sewell
4 months ago

“The problem is always with Intent”

The intent is to cause harm – primarily mental harm [and near-criminal harassment]

I don’t see a problem in reporting this serious matter to the police.



Last edited 4 months ago by Richard W. Symonds
David Lamming
David Lamming
Reply to  Fr. Dean Henley
4 months ago

The ‘dubious risk assessments’ were referred to TVP (in March 2021.) A letter from a Detective Inspector dated 26 May 2021 reported: “DS [J] has completed a thorough and proportionate investigation into this matter. This has included reviewing material and interviewing various people as witnesses. I have reviewed this investigation with DS J and we are satisfied that there are no criminal offence and no criminal intent.” . A reply asking for “the names of the ‘various people’ you interviewed as witnesses. Were statements taken from any of these people? In particular, did you interview and/or take a statement from Graham Ward?… … Read more »

Richard W. Symonds
Richard W. Symonds
Reply to  David Lamming
4 months ago

“I didn’t realise I was clever until I was in my 40s”

Canon Graham Ward

Stanley Monkhouse
Reply to  Richard W. Symonds
4 months ago

I peaked in 1961 – the 11+. It’s been downhill ever since. Now I’m in the gutter, but looking at the stars, as Mr Wilde wrote. At least in the gutter I know where I am.

Will Richards
Will Richards
Reply to  David Lamming
4 months ago

This is helpul as well as interesting. Presumably, there are further channels to pursue? However (and please forgive me if this is a stupid question), given what we now know about the Dirty Dossier, who is qualified to make a CDM complaint against Graham Ward in relation to this? Not being legally trained, and certainly having little grasp of the Byzantine nature of the CDM, I am not clear whether a complainant has to be directly involved or effected by the matter forming the substance of the complaint – even if there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate an investogation is… Read more »

David Lamming
David Lamming
Reply to  Will Richards
4 months ago

As Graham Ward is one of the cathedral clergy, the position is governed by section 42(2) of the Clergy Discipline Measure 2003: “(2) In the case of a clerk in Holy Orders serving in a cathedral church, disciplinary proceedings may be instituted only by— (a) a person nominated by the council of the cathedral church; or (b) any other person, if the diocesan bishop concerned determines that that person has a proper interest in making the complaint.” [See also rule 92 of the Clergy Discipline Rules 2005] Clearly, Dean Martyn Percy would have a ‘proper interest’ in bringing such a… Read more »

Richard W. Symonds
Richard W. Symonds
4 months ago

Re: Archbishop Cranmer Who wrote the ‘Dirty Dossier’ on the Dean of Christ Church, Oxford?

“The unattributed Risk Assessment relates to the Cathedral and bears the official logo of the Church of England, but it has proved impossible to determine who wrote it”

Well whoever was given power to write the unattributed Risk Assessment was indulging in a psychological operation – ‘psyops’ – designed to mentally unbalance its target.

That’s a forged document dressed up as a Risk Assessment – and thus illegal.

Last edited 4 months ago by Richard W. Symonds
T Pott
T Pott
4 months ago

Since we are invariably informed of any new bishiop’s favourite foorball team, perhaps its team colour(s) could be used.

Froghole
Froghole
4 months ago

Mr Goodhew’s remarks are interesting, because they seem to be part of an Anglican tendency – at least in certain circumstances – to support those in power, whatever the enormities. Yes, we have the example of Janani Luwum, but we also have that of, say, Nolbert Kunonga. The Elizabethan notion, of the Church being the spiritual arm of the state, sometimes casts a long shadow.

Father David
4 months ago

Having just returned from a walking holiday in the Lake District I am currently in catch up mode as to all that is happening in the good old C of E.
I am wondering when does Bishop Dakin’s six week step aside conclude and what will happen thereafter?
As to stoles and preaching scarves – any perceived problems as to colours and adornments could surely be resolved by following Archbishop Cranmer’s example and clergy being encouraged to wear a fur tippet.

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
Reply to  Father David
4 months ago

Darling that’s an excellent idea, your holiday has obviously done you good! I think faux fur might be best nowadays and artifice might ironically just sum up the state of the modern church.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Fr. Dean Henley
4 months ago

This brings back a memory largely irrelevant to the topics being discussed. On my very first day in the law, in fact during the first hour, as an unqualified solicitor’s clerk I was dispatched to the City of London Justice Room at the Mansion House to take a note in a case of careless driving. This was 54 years ago. Looking back, it was all incredibly archaic. Sir Bernard Waley-Cohen, former Lord Mayor, sat as a sole lay justice, a vertical sword mounted above him. The sole relevance is that he wore a robe with a brown fur tippet! All… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by Rowland Wateridge
Father David
Reply to  Fr. Dean Henley
4 months ago

My dear boy, I took faux fur for granted. When I was Chaplain to the Mayor of Bexhill – the old mayoral robe edged with real fur was put into storage or lent to the local museum (I forget which} and a replacement robe with that artificial stuff was worn on Civic occasions by the then splendidly attired mayor. That particular superb mayor could not claim to be the first female mayor but she did have a unique claim to fame in that she was the first female mayor who was the daughter of a former Yorkshire miner. Artificial fur… Read more »

Stanley Monkhouse
Reply to  Father David
4 months ago

Canons of Southwell used to wear fur tippets. Maybe they still do. I remember the Vicar of Nottingham in the 1980s, Michael Jackson, being so adorned.

Last edited 4 months ago by Stanley Monkhouse
C R SEITZ
C R SEITZ
Reply to  Stanley Monkhouse
4 months ago

Jackson 5?

Jeremy Pemberton
Jeremy Pemberton
Reply to  Stanley Monkhouse
4 months ago

Sadly not. They wear blue cloaks that look like hotel curtains.

C R SEITZ
C R SEITZ
Reply to  Jeremy Pemberton
4 months ago

That’s a bit stingy. I’m sure Jacksons would appreciate being in on the latest couture anglicane. Fur tippets. It’s only a matter of time.

Last edited 4 months ago by C R SEITZ
Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
Reply to  Jeremy Pemberton
4 months ago

Really! All sorts of things get wiped on hotel curtains.

Shamus
Shamus
Reply to  Father David
4 months ago

I see this important matter was concerning a clergyman in 1881. The poor chap was no doubt freezing in his church. See https://academic.oup.com/nq/article-abstract/s6-IV/105/537/4377560

Shamus
Shamus
Reply to  Father David
4 months ago

I have the answer…become a member of The City Livery Company of Mercers. They have the most elegant and warm looking gowns adorned with lots of fur.

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
Reply to  Father David
4 months ago

I’m rather too busy to ask for a PtO so this inferior cleric wouldn’t be allowed such frippery in any event. I make do with a black clerical suit and a ring of confidence collar for church these days. However Fr. David I think you should acquire a tippet adorned with faux fur without delay; if you get any adverse comments I’ll sort them out for you! Deal?

Kate
Kate
Reply to  Fr. Dean Henley
4 months ago

Actually is there a statute preventing any parishioner from turning up in full ecclesiastical robes?

Susannah Clark
Susannah Clark
Reply to  Kate
4 months ago

…and wearing a mitre?

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

A reply to Kate and Susannah. I believe it is an offence in USA, but in England it is only one if done with the intention of committing a criminal act. That could lead to endless possibilities.

Fr. Dean Henley
Fr. Dean Henley
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

I think it would look a bit odd sat in the congregation wearing a cope and mitre. My understanding is that clerics cannot wear liturgical robes unless they have a licence or PtO in case a child or vulnerable adult assumes that they are in authority in that church or parish. I seem to think that was part of the problem in the Chichester diocese when clergy without PtO were robed and concelebrating, leading vulnerable people to assume they were fully checked and authorised. As clerks in Holy Orders clergy are entitled to wear clerical dress and retired clergy often… Read more »

peter kettle
peter kettle
Reply to  Fr. Dean Henley
4 months ago

As clerks in Holy Orders clergy are entitled to wear clerical dress’. Can you say where that entitlement can be found? (I write as a fully retired priest, but who occasionally takes funerals in crematoria or cemeteries for friends; I usually wear ‘choir dress’, but have sometimes wondered whether I am ‘entitled’ to do so. Those attending will be under no illusion about my status.)

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  peter kettle
4 months ago

Without referring to the Canons (I haven’t time at present) you will find some support or authority in the article which I linked from Law & Religion UK. A former Cantuar, possibly + Rowan Williams, said as much, and I’m sure you are OK in choir dress, which on one solitary occasion I lawfully wore as a layman.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Fr. Dean Henley
4 months ago

The excellent website ‘Law & Religion’ (authoritative and reliable on church law matters) deals with these issues under the wider question “Is it an offence to impersonate a cleric? Thoughts on deposition from holy orders.” It states that the views expressed there in 2015 remain unchanged in 2021. For any offence there must be criminal intent, and the Law & Religion article quotes examples of lay people lawfully wearing, e.g., cassock and surplice. Equally it gives examples where the criminal threshold would be crossed. The scenario posed by Kate and Susannah is such an unlikely one in any event. It… Read more »

Susannah Clark
Susannah Clark
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

Rowland, just to be clear: I was just engaging in fun, and taking Kate’s own fun comment ad absurdem. There is NO WAY I would want to dress up in clerical robes or wear a mitre. Personally I don’t care what robes clerics wear, nor what colours, nor what stoles.

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Susannah Clark
4 months ago

I never thought otherwise, Susannah. But it’s always worth knowing the answer and Fr Dean Henley seemed concerned about it. In fact I have heard of strangely-dressed people turning up at church, although not clerically dressed. 
I have twice been mistaken as a cleric – the first time in Truro Cathedral – and once as a High Court Queen’s Bench Master (but that’s another story) – all entirely innocently.

Susannah Clark
Susannah Clark
Reply to  Rowland Wateridge
4 months ago

Personally, while accounting for cultural differences, I believe people should dress respectfully when attending church. I’m fine with casual (in fact I prefer it) but I do think dress should be considerate of others, and I don’t think church is the right place to dress sexily. I think modesty is not only a quality in itself, but also considerate to others. I also think it would be wrong, for example, to attend church in a squirrel costume just for a laugh. As far as the clergy are concerned, there are arguments for wearing clerical outfits and arguments for wearing lay… Read more »

Anthony Cross
Anthony Cross
Reply to  Father David
4 months ago

I hope you enjoyed your holiday.

The six weeks started on Wednesday 19th May so conclude on Wednesday 30th June.

Any discussion of “What will happen thereafter?” would be entirely speculative at present. It would probably be based on the desire or hope of the individual commenter rather than fact or legal position, as this situation has not arisen before.

We shall have to wait and see what happens in two weeks’ time.

Patrick Coleman
Patrick Coleman
4 months ago

I am surprised not to see any comments so far on the eye-opening story about Archbishop Kwong. Surely it deserves some discussion.

C R SEITZ
C R SEITZ
Reply to  Patrick Coleman
4 months ago

It can’t be as important as the favourite subject of Anglicans. Vesture.

Bernard Silverman
Reply to  C R SEITZ
4 months ago

Quite so. Only impacts on the treatment of many millions of oppressed people

Stanley Monkhouse
Reply to  Patrick Coleman
4 months ago

Anglicans being told what to do by oppressive government? Nothing new about that in CofE history. I have the impression from TA that some would welcome the present government’s imposing its will on the CofE

Rowland Wateridge
Rowland Wateridge
Reply to  Stanley Monkhouse
4 months ago

Now why do some of the above comments, make me think of Luke 18.11?

FrDavidH
FrDavidH
Reply to  Stanley Monkhouse
4 months ago

We can’t have a devout Roman Catholic like Boris Johnson imposing his will on us. It wouldn’t be ecumenical.

Fr Dean
Fr Dean
Reply to  FrDavidH
4 months ago

I thought that the Prime Minister had renounced Roman Catholicism in favour of Anglicanism whilst he was a pupil at Eton. Has he now had to renounce Anglicanism to embrace the Church of Rome once again for the wedding his fiancé wanted? It does all seem rather opportunistic.

Richard W. Symonds
Richard W. Symonds
4 months ago

Re: Archbishop Cranmer Who wrote the ‘Dirty Dossier’ on the Dean of Christ Church, Oxford?

Today, the Church Times Leader Comment asks the question “Is this institutional corruption?”

As in this case, and so many others, the answer is – tragically – in the affirmative.

Last edited 4 months ago by Richard W. Symonds
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