Stuart Haynes’s article about Ormskirk Parish Church’s foray into the cultural market – “why Ormskirk opened its doors”, reveals the way many churches, if not the Church in general, thinks about God, Jesus, buildings, worshipping communities, and the purpose of all these elements. “Festival spirit is a necessary experiment in a sacred space” Isn’t festival spirit a vital element of a building where people gather to worship and experience the presence of God. The secular versus sacred division demarcating acceptable and unacceptable activities in church seem to be engrained here. It’s false and unhealthy and results in locked churches Monday… Read more »
“A building that everyone knows, but to which hardly anyone goes”. Too true in so many places. Having removed our pews, installed under floor heating, toilets and a servery, we can host community breakfasts, warm/friendly spaces, quiz nights, pie and pea suppers, cream tea afternoons, youth film nights, wreath making workshops etc Monday to Saturday, and still have three services of worship on Sunday. It takes some effort but it’s worth it so that the building might become “ the vibrant beating heart of the community”.
There needs to be some realism around this though – in my village we do all that in the village hall, so for the church to make all those changes would risk being an expensive me-too, rather than catering to demand…
You are absolutely right. Each situation is different. Each parish needs to make best use of its buildings. In our situation we had a fully used church hall and associated rooms, and a church building only used on Sundays, lacking basic facilities.
Adrian Clarke
20 days ago
So we now have moon worship? Maybe the acting bishop of Liverpool could give an account of what is going on or alternatively resign.
The useful question is not so much about whether churches should be used for community events (they already are) as just what sort of events? The article provides little detail, hence Adrian’s concern.
Luke Jerram’s travelling exhibition previously displayed his Moon at Chichester Cathedral in 2021, and Mars in 2024, so I presume you would also wish to accuse +Martin of Moon Worship & Mars Worship heresies?
By the way, although he has already resigned as bishop, Martin Warner is going on to serve as a parish priest in Kent, so there is time for you to call for him to have this appointment rescinded & no PTO granted.
I wonder if the issue is whether it is the right type of art or culture, as opposed to the right type of theology. If one uses a church or cathedral as a concert space to play the sort of music found on classic FM you will get no objections even if some of the music presented may have pagan, Buddhist or other inspiration. But put on a grime, hip-hop or other programme (Rave in the Nave?) then that will be objected to, even if many of the artists and participants are Christian. The same applies to the visual arts.… Read more »
Not entirely, David. I don’t imagine there would be much support amongst Thinking Anglicans for a Leni Riefenstahl visual arts night at Canterbury Cathedral. Questions of ‘What art? What culture?’ are important when the church hosts events.
Stormzy runs a very effective publishing house, produces films, and runs a programme sponsoring many young men and women through Cambridge university.
But he is also a shaven headed black man who wears a Banksy designed union jack stab vest on stage. It’s understandable if that creates a bit of cognitive dissonance, but it’s a pity if that has become an obstacle.
The Graffiti at Canterbury got pilloried by many ( if not most) people who never saw it.It was mostly in the eastern crypt which is not used for regular worship. The questions asked / answered were rather what you would expect ( God allowing suffering etc) . And noone pointed out that for years the Cathedral had organised Graffiti tours.. beginning with medieval stone masons marks and exploring the graffiti left by the Tudors/ Stuarts and Georgians..all fascinating. A certain sort of person always has it in for the C of E sometimes alas members of other denominations.
I saw the stuff in Canterbury Cathedral. It was pathetic performative stuff on plastic sheets stuck on the wall – not even real graffiti but commissioned by the Cathedral! Hardly historical stuff by real people of the past.
Also Bristol, Salisbury and Winchester; still to come in 2026. Liverpool, Peterborough, Southwell and possibly others.
A different slant on this (which I haven’t yet encountered) is not so much whether it’s a suitable subject for cathedrals (which I take to be Adrian Clarke’s point) as whether, on aesthetic grounds it detracts from or diminishes the grandeur of the architecture. My experience is limited to Salisbury and Winchester, and in both cases I think that was arguable, although undeniably accepted enthusiastically by visitors.
If displaying an image of the moon in a church building constitutes moon worship, what about other items on view in churches? Do people worship flowers, organs, guitars, or AV equipment? Stained glass? The apostles? Hymn books?
Well I guess it all depends on what you mean by ‘worship’. Not so long ago, in the unchanging tradition and values of Christian marriage, grooms vowed in church ceremonies to worship their wives!
I had completely forgotten ‘With this ring I thee wed; with my body I thee worship…’ ‘Curious’ I thought. ‘What does I thee worship mean?’ I checked out The Prayer Book Dictionary (1913). No help. The Merriam Webster Dictionary, however, points out that ‘worship’ can simply mean ‘having an extravagant, sometimes uncritical admiration or devotion to a person, concept, or object.’ “She absolutely worships her older brother” or “the worship of wealth and success”. So worship of something other than God is not necessarily idolatrous.
The word “worship” derives from worth-ship, presumably meaning “having worth” and the OED lists a number of archaic and obsolete usages. But it is still current usage to refer to a mayor as “his/her worship”.
Equally the Chair of a bench of lay magistrates, although that practice was fading out. Historically, in a borough, the mayor was usually chief magistrate so that might be a possible reason for its use in court and extended widely to the very much larger number of magistrates who were not mayors.
In purely neutral language, I would have thought ‘worship’ can mean simply “religious observance”.
I think that the church’s website often gives an insight into who/what is worshipped. Is the focus on the Risen Christ and the gospel of repentance and forgiveness or is it on the bells, the stained glass windows, the graveyard, the history of the building or the liturgy?
My question to Adrian is why he would assume that an artwork of the moon displayed in church indicates that the congregation worship the moon. Of course, any object or person which has been a means of blessing to us can become an object of worship in its own right – an idol. That happened with the brass serpent Moses employed to heal people of snakebite: several hundred years later it had to be destroyed as an idol. All of us will have experience of objects used in worship, including the building, gradually taking on an importance and a reverence… Read more »
Given the huge diversity of worship in today’s C of E I think I would like to know from the website what sort of services to expect …and whether I felt I wanted to participate tbh. So I think something about the worship on a parish website is certainly necessary.
What of those who have come to faith through the beauty of the building, the liturgy, the music – and even the poignancy of graveyards and the quiet confidence expressed in stone?
Personally, I think it looks ludicrous in most places I have seen it, and I would not attend worship with it in place as I would find it too distracting. But that’s purely a matter of preferences and I’m fine with mine not being shared by all. I’ve also found a huge amount of identifiably religious tat put in place in Cathedrals over the years that I’ve found just as distracting and visually out of place, though, and I find a conclusion that moon worship is happening equally ludicrous, if not more so.
I recall that about seven years ago Luke Jarman’s Moon was displayed in St Giles’ Cathedral in Edinburgh. As far as I am aware no one thought the congregation had become moon worshppers! My view is that the acting Bisop of Liverpool has more pressing work than what you suggest.
Stuart Haynes’s article about Ormskirk Parish Church’s foray into the cultural market – “why Ormskirk opened its doors”, reveals the way many churches, if not the Church in general, thinks about God, Jesus, buildings, worshipping communities, and the purpose of all these elements. “Festival spirit is a necessary experiment in a sacred space” Isn’t festival spirit a vital element of a building where people gather to worship and experience the presence of God. The secular versus sacred division demarcating acceptable and unacceptable activities in church seem to be engrained here. It’s false and unhealthy and results in locked churches Monday… Read more »
“A building that everyone knows, but to which hardly anyone goes”. Too true in so many places. Having removed our pews, installed under floor heating, toilets and a servery, we can host community breakfasts, warm/friendly spaces, quiz nights, pie and pea suppers, cream tea afternoons, youth film nights, wreath making workshops etc Monday to Saturday, and still have three services of worship on Sunday. It takes some effort but it’s worth it so that the building might become “ the vibrant beating heart of the community”.
There needs to be some realism around this though – in my village we do all that in the village hall, so for the church to make all those changes would risk being an expensive me-too, rather than catering to demand…
You are absolutely right. Each situation is different. Each parish needs to make best use of its buildings. In our situation we had a fully used church hall and associated rooms, and a church building only used on Sundays, lacking basic facilities.
So we now have moon worship? Maybe the acting bishop of Liverpool could give an account of what is going on or alternatively resign.
Since this is plainly not about worshipping the moon, what are you actually objecting to, Adrian?
The useful question is not so much about whether churches should be used for community events (they already are) as just what sort of events? The article provides little detail, hence Adrian’s concern.
Luke Jerram’s travelling exhibition previously displayed his Moon at Chichester Cathedral in 2021, and Mars in 2024, so I presume you would also wish to accuse +Martin of Moon Worship & Mars Worship heresies?
By the way, although he has already resigned as bishop, Martin Warner is going on to serve as a parish priest in Kent, so there is time for you to call for him to have this appointment rescinded & no PTO granted.
And Rochester Cathedral
I wonder if the issue is whether it is the right type of art or culture, as opposed to the right type of theology. If one uses a church or cathedral as a concert space to play the sort of music found on classic FM you will get no objections even if some of the music presented may have pagan, Buddhist or other inspiration. But put on a grime, hip-hop or other programme (Rave in the Nave?) then that will be objected to, even if many of the artists and participants are Christian. The same applies to the visual arts.… Read more »
Snobbery, in other words.
Not entirely, David. I don’t imagine there would be much support amongst Thinking Anglicans for a Leni Riefenstahl visual arts night at Canterbury Cathedral. Questions of ‘What art? What culture?’ are important when the church hosts events.
tupac wrote many religious or socially aware sons.
Ghetto gospel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfeF6ubV9bc
Brenda had a baby
Only God can judge me
God bless the dead
Unconditional Love
dear Momma
Perhaps something else.
Stormzy runs a very effective publishing house, produces films, and runs a programme sponsoring many young men and women through Cambridge university.
But he is also a shaven headed black man who wears a Banksy designed union jack stab vest on stage. It’s understandable if that creates a bit of cognitive dissonance, but it’s a pity if that has become an obstacle.
The Graffiti at Canterbury got pilloried by many ( if not most) people who never saw it.It was mostly in the eastern crypt which is not used for regular worship. The questions asked / answered were rather what you would expect ( God allowing suffering etc) . And noone pointed out that for years the Cathedral had organised Graffiti tours.. beginning with medieval stone masons marks and exploring the graffiti left by the Tudors/ Stuarts and Georgians..all fascinating. A certain sort of person always has it in for the C of E sometimes alas members of other denominations.
not to mention, too, the Westminster schoolboys graffiti on the coronation chair. Disgraceful!!
I think it’s wider than just against CofE. There’s a strong current in England that sees anything new as morally degenerate.
True
I saw the stuff in Canterbury Cathedral. It was pathetic performative stuff on plastic sheets stuck on the wall – not even real graffiti but commissioned by the Cathedral! Hardly historical stuff by real people of the past.
Also Bristol, Salisbury and Winchester; still to come in 2026. Liverpool, Peterborough, Southwell and possibly others.
A different slant on this (which I haven’t yet encountered) is not so much whether it’s a suitable subject for cathedrals (which I take to be Adrian Clarke’s point) as whether, on aesthetic grounds it detracts from or diminishes the grandeur of the architecture. My experience is limited to Salisbury and Winchester, and in both cases I think that was arguable, although undeniably accepted enthusiastically by visitors.
If displaying an image of the moon in a church building constitutes moon worship, what about other items on view in churches? Do people worship flowers, organs, guitars, or AV equipment? Stained glass? The apostles? Hymn books?
Well I guess it all depends on what you mean by ‘worship’. Not so long ago, in the unchanging tradition and values of Christian marriage, grooms vowed in church ceremonies to worship their wives!
I had completely forgotten ‘With this ring I thee wed; with my body I thee worship…’ ‘Curious’ I thought. ‘What does I thee worship mean?’ I checked out The Prayer Book Dictionary (1913). No help. The Merriam Webster Dictionary, however, points out that ‘worship’ can simply mean ‘having an extravagant, sometimes uncritical admiration or devotion to a person, concept, or object.’ “She absolutely worships her older brother” or “the worship of wealth and success”. So worship of something other than God is not necessarily idolatrous.
The word “worship” derives from worth-ship, presumably meaning “having worth” and the OED lists a number of archaic and obsolete usages. But it is still current usage to refer to a mayor as “his/her worship”.
Equally the Chair of a bench of lay magistrates, although that practice was fading out. Historically, in a borough, the mayor was usually chief magistrate so that might be a possible reason for its use in court and extended widely to the very much larger number of magistrates who were not mayors.
In purely neutral language, I would have thought ‘worship’ can mean simply “religious observance”.
Sadly, some do, to the denigration of their fidelity to Jesus.
I think that the church’s website often gives an insight into who/what is worshipped. Is the focus on the Risen Christ and the gospel of repentance and forgiveness or is it on the bells, the stained glass windows, the graveyard, the history of the building or the liturgy?
My question to Adrian is why he would assume that an artwork of the moon displayed in church indicates that the congregation worship the moon. Of course, any object or person which has been a means of blessing to us can become an object of worship in its own right – an idol. That happened with the brass serpent Moses employed to heal people of snakebite: several hundred years later it had to be destroyed as an idol. All of us will have experience of objects used in worship, including the building, gradually taking on an importance and a reverence… Read more »
Given the huge diversity of worship in today’s C of E I think I would like to know from the website what sort of services to expect …and whether I felt I wanted to participate tbh. So I think something about the worship on a parish website is certainly necessary.
What of those who have come to faith through the beauty of the building, the liturgy, the music – and even the poignancy of graveyards and the quiet confidence expressed in stone?
There is also precedent for recognising the Risen Christ only in the breaking of the bread.
Personally, I think it looks ludicrous in most places I have seen it, and I would not attend worship with it in place as I would find it too distracting. But that’s purely a matter of preferences and I’m fine with mine not being shared by all. I’ve also found a huge amount of identifiably religious tat put in place in Cathedrals over the years that I’ve found just as distracting and visually out of place, though, and I find a conclusion that moon worship is happening equally ludicrous, if not more so.
There are plenty of ludicrous items around the world. Jesus’ foreskin and Saint Catherine of Sienna?
I recall that about seven years ago Luke Jarman’s Moon was displayed in St Giles’ Cathedral in Edinburgh. As far as I am aware no one thought the congregation had become moon worshppers! My view is that the acting Bisop of Liverpool has more pressing work than what you suggest.
As mentioned above, Liverpool Cathedral is included in this year’s itinerary.