Thinking Anglicans

Opinion – 16 November 2024

Several articles have appeared in the last few days describing the process for appointing the next Archbishoop of Canterbury.

Martine Oborne Women and the Church Coercion and gaslighting also need to be addressed

Colin Coward Unadulterated Love The Podcast, the Archbishop, Makin, Resignation, and the Future

Jeremy Pemberton From The Quire Iwerne: The Anglican Trojan Horse

David Aaronovitch Prospect Justin Welby is a scapegoat for establishment failures

Harriet Sherwood The Guardian John Smyth abuse report triggers ‘existential crisis’ in Church of England

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David
David
25 days ago

Fantastic piece in The Guardian. There’s no leadership left in the hierarchy. They’re frightened, impotent, incompetent, self-serving, aloof, and now facing many years of pent up anger over their lack of accountability, failures to act, resistance to external regulation and outright condescending governance. Nobody wants to fund this anymore. Safeguarding is merely the tip of the iceberg. Or, more likely, the cap on the volcano that has now erupted. Frankly, the hierarchy, especially the senior staff in Church House and Lambeth Palace, have had years to bring the CofE hierarchy into line with Nolan Principles and basic codes of conduct… Read more »

Fr John Caperon
Fr John Caperon
25 days ago

Jeremy Pemberton’s important piece lifts the lid on ‘Iwerne’, ‘Bash’ camps and their theology and practice clearly and powerfully. This subcutural aspect of wider Anglicanism has accumulated far more influence over the years than is reasonable or proportionate, and it’s good to have a clear insight into its roots. How on earth, though, has it exerted such a hold on the Church of England? And will the Makin report mark the point of its imminent decline?

David James
David James
Reply to  Fr John Caperon
25 days ago

Should be required reading not just for Bishops but senior church officials. Not only because of its in depth and incisive examination of the Iwerne network and its relationship to abuse, but also because it gives so many answers to the question ‘How on earth did we get here’ which has been puzzling for a long time.

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
25 days ago

Jeremy Pemberton’s final two paragraphs are worth repeating. The important lessons from Makin are not just about Smyth, but about a particular group, with a particular toxic theology, which has attempted a reasonably successful power grab within the Church of England. “Overly negative about masturbation, fretful about any engagement between the sexes, terrified of real women, utterly neurotic about homosexual attractions and love, Iwerne’s sickness was played out in the distorted libidos and anxiety-laden fumblings of its devotees. The fear of sinning loomed over bodies in general, and participants in the camp in particular. Iwerne’s legacy of fear, homophobia, and… Read more »

Last edited 25 days ago by Simon Dawson
Kate Keates
Kate Keates
25 days ago

I read Martine Oborne and had a thought. Until recently all clergy members of the Church of England were male so all of the customs, traditions and ways of doing things were designed by men, for men. I would go further and say that the Church of England has been heavily influenced by public school culture. I think that’s sadly been true in terms of safeguarding with a tendency to cover up rather than snitch. It’s definitely the case with the clericalism and expected deference. I suspect that how one reads the Bishop of Newcastle letter exchange might depend on… Read more »

David Hawkins
David Hawkins
Reply to  Kate Keates
23 days ago

I totally agree with your post Kate.
I want to share a positive alternative from the Church in Wales. Here is a loving joyful alternative and one image has stuck in my mind. A young woman deacon about to be ordained as a priest sits with her baby daughter on her lap. What a incredible symbol of the role of women in the Church. I have watched this recording over and over again and never cease to be moved. If we deny loving sexuality we deny life itself and what it means to be human.

https://www.youtube.com/live/woepFXwvBXw?si=Nhszx9ndOrqLOuzN

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
25 days ago

My runners and riders for Chair of CNC: 1. Theresa May 2. Virginia Bottomley 3. Peter Bottomley All staunch Anglicans who have been active in public life.Virginia Bottomley has the added qualification of many years’ experience in recruiting to senior posts. I suspect the Prime Minister will delegate it to the Appointments Secretary but he might want to seem magnanimous by appointing a Tory, especially former PM or former Father of the House who lost his seat. Jack Straw chaired the committee which appointed the Dean of Blackburn; so he might be a possibility My favourite for ++ would be… Read more »

Susannah
Susannah
Reply to  Simon Bravery
25 days ago

If by favourite you mean preference, then my preference is Graham Usher or Rachel Treweek. I know a number of others admire Bishop Guli (as you do Simon) and that would be fine too. If a socially ‘conservative’ bishop is chosen, then I think that might prove difficult, as a majority of bishops want LLF to progress and could resist a ‘conservative’ agenda. +Norwich is a moderate who I have found very human and decent, with integrity and authenticity in the admittedly few exchanges I have had with him. I think he could be steady in the face of the… Read more »

David James
David James
Reply to  Susannah
24 days ago

Does the choice have to be made from serving Diocesan Bishops, many of whom eliminate themselves because of age, closeness to the present regime, prejudice or incompetence. The field is severely depleted.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Simon Bravery
25 days ago

Is there a reason why you don’t think Dominic Grieve is a candidate for Chair of the CNC?

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Kate Keates
25 days ago

A distinct possibility – conducting the Christ Church review will have given him an insight into the complexities of the Church of England. He has served on London Diocesan Synod.

Jack Straw chaired the committee which appointed the Dean of Blackburn, and could be a candidate.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Simon Bravery
24 days ago

I mentioned it because Dominic is in the final five for the Chancellorship of the University of Oxford so he is clearly looking for additional appointments.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Kate Keates
24 days ago

Send these names in to Julian Hellewell, Prime Minister’s Appointments Secretary. I have done so. It’s not too late. The last three were Lord Luce (++Welby), Baroness Butler-Sloss (++Williams), and (I think) Lord Hurd (++Carey). Only Luce was in the interview era. Of the three, Butler-Sloss was by far and away the best. Dominic Grieve is a good idea, but I would favour a woman.

Too old to genuflect
Too old to genuflect
Reply to  Anthony Archer
24 days ago

We constantly hear of wanting to favour a woman. Why not just be gender blind?

Realist
Realist
Reply to  Anthony Archer
24 days ago

Sorry to be pedantic, Anthony, but the PM’s Appointments Secretary is Jonathan Hellewell.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Realist
23 days ago

Thank you. Not pedantic at all! Jonathan Hellewell.
jonathan.hellewell@cabinetoffice.gov.uk

Jeremy Pemberton
Jeremy Pemberton
Reply to  Simon Bravery
24 days ago

I think either of the last two would be a total disaster. We need a very real change of direction.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Jeremy Pemberton
24 days ago

Agree. Neither is remotely equipped, irrespective of church tradition.

RPNewark
RPNewark
Reply to  Jeremy Pemberton
23 days ago

Totally agree.

Fr Dean
Fr Dean
Reply to  Simon Bravery
24 days ago

Am I alone in finding all this horse trading about the next Archbishop of Canterbury distasteful. Can we not have a dignified period of mourning for the lost innocence of all those boys abused by Smyth. I have no excitement for the appointment of a replacement for Archbishop Welby. What about the boy found dead at the bottom of the Zimbabwean swimming pool? I’m glad Archbishop Welby has gone or in the laboured process of going; Bishops Conway and Bailey Wells ought to have gone by now too, but in all the glee over the political machinations it feels as… Read more »

Rory Gillis
Rory Gillis
Reply to  Fr Dean
24 days ago

“Am I alone in finding all this horse trading about the next Archbishop of Canterbury distasteful. Can we not have a dignified period of mourning for the lost innocence of all those boys abused by Smyth. I have no excitement for the appointment of a replacement for Archbishop Welby. What about the boy found dead at the bottom of the Zimbabwean swimming pool? ” Exactly so. No, you are not alone and the fall out from this is being felt elsewhere in The Communion. However, denial in the face of a credibility crisis like this is often pervasive in an institution… Read more »

Openmind
Openmind
Reply to  Fr Dean
24 days ago

You are not alone.

James
James
Reply to  Openmind
23 days ago

Absolutely. Fr Dean, you are not alone at all in thinking this way. Breathless Kremlinological speculation abut the next ABC is premature and inappropriate. Church politics will not make this ugly story any prettier. And if, as I think someone once harshly said, “politics is just show business for ugly people”, what does that imply for the tawdry little world of Church politics?

God 'elp us all
God 'elp us all
Reply to  James
23 days ago

Another (Oxbridge/ Establishment?) ‘take’ on process:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751836/

How things have changed- only one ‘recommendation’ (with one ‘reserve?) now 😉

A period of silence now would be welcome:
https://x.com/jonsopel/status/1072907208172670981?lang=en

A circular firing squad encouraging Sir Gavin Williamson, so richly rewarded for ‘doing his best’ for England’s schoolchildren during the pandemic, in his quest to remove the bench of prelates in the House of Lords, and in the meantime to take air from and devalue the church’s contribution to the current debate on ‘assisted dying’.

David
David
Reply to  Fr Dean
23 days ago

It all plays into the “agenda”. The news cycle has already moved on. The focus is all about who the next Archbishop will be. This change of focus serves well the other bishops who ought to be held to account, and the Archbishops’ minions at Lambeth Palace and Church House. This should be a time of serious soul-searching for every member of the Church, of how we got here and how to prevent such abuses happening again. We do have one or two bishops who were victims of Smyth at Iwerne, but I doubt most of our bishops have given… Read more »

Mark Andiam
Mark Andiam
25 days ago

Re: Jeremy Pemberton, From The Quire, Iwerne: The Anglican Trojan Horse
It has been increasingly obvious that certain churches with a project to ‘evangelise the nation’ were a Trojan horse in the broad CofE, and their current moves towards separatism have confirmed this, but I didn’t know the roots of that project. Thank God this is now out in the open. Just hope it’s not too late.

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Mark Andiam
25 days ago

The C of E’s aim to evangelise the nation.

peterpi - Peter Gross
peterpi - Peter Gross
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
25 days ago

Isn’t it already Christian, by custom, history, population, and law (although, thank God, affirming religious liberty for non-Christians)? No monarch has ever been crowned in a synagogue or mosque, for example. CofE parishes and schools are funded by the State. The monarch, the formal head of the State, is “Defender of the (Christian) Faith”. All members of the Lords Spiritual are Christian, specifically CofE. The last I checked, a majority of the adult population is NOT Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, polytheist, etc. If I’m wrong, please correct me, but any adult who does not go to a different house of… Read more »

Last edited 25 days ago by peterpi - Peter Gross
Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  peterpi - Peter Gross
24 days ago

There are certainly strong elements of Christianity still around, which after 1200 years will take time to dismantle completely. I don’t think Prince William would call himself a Christian, nor Kier Starmer. The state and C of E persecuted Christians too which is why the USA and New Zealand developed in the way they have.

Ian Hobbs
Ian Hobbs
Reply to  peterpi - Peter Gross
24 days ago

CofE parishes funded by the State?
Iran is officially Muslim. Does that make all Iranians Muslims?
Any prevailing culture isn’t the same as the beliefs of those who are it’s population. England certainly has many “Christian foundations ” but to describe the population en masse as “Christian ” in any believing sense makes no sense.

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  peterpi - Peter Gross
24 days ago

Parishes are not funded by the state, and C of E schools only partially so. King Charles swore to be ‘Defender of Faiths’, rather than the traditional ‘Defender of the Faith’. C of E clergy serve the entire population of the parish (in theory), whatever other allegiance parishioners may have; but to be a member of a particular parish church, with full voting rights, you sign the electoral roll. But I think the real issue here is what is meant by ‘Christian’. Evangelicals usually regard being a Christian as intentional and the result of a definite commitment, not a consequence… Read more »

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Janet Fife
24 days ago

I think the most liberal interpretation of what a Christian is – usually involves some level of self-definition. And a majority of the country has defined itself as non-Christian (see Census). So I think on that basis – it is very difficult to define the population en masse as “Christian” — potentially you could loosen the definition further to include people who e.g. don’t believe in anything divine but seem to act with “Christian values” (whatever that means in this context). But you are still left with a majority of the population who need to hear about Jesus. So having… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  TimP
24 days ago

There’s a difference between describing the personal beliefs of individuals in the population, and describing the traditions and institutions of a country. I wouldn’t venture an opinion on whether or not the majority of English citizens are Christians, but there is an argument for saying we are a Christian country – as Peterpi has done above. Christianity is an intrinsic element of our history, our Establishment, and our constitution to this day.

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  TimP
22 days ago

They were Romans. The first language they used was martyrdom.

peterpi - Peter Gross
peterpi - Peter Gross
Reply to  Janet Fife
24 days ago

Thank you for the correction regarding King Charles at his coronation. I guess my real issue, which I probably should have stated up front, is evangelization in and of itself. If people want to voluntarily convert to Christianity from another religion or join the CofE, fine and dandy. But too many past abuses worldwide have been done in the name of evangelization (Christian, Muslim, or other), and as Adrian Clarke pointed out, the CofE persecuted people deemed not practicing Christianity appropriately, which caused numerous people to move to the American Colonies (where they proceeded to persecute people not practicing their… Read more »

rural_liberal
rural_liberal
Reply to  Janet Fife
23 days ago

Point of order – no King Charles didn’t so swear. He mused that he would like to in 1994, rowed back from that in about 2004, and when it came down to it last year he became Defender of the Faith as usual.

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  rural_liberal
22 days ago

Ah, thank you.

Mark Andiam
Mark Andiam
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
24 days ago

Thank you for reminding me. Perhaps I should have been more specific — I was referring to certain churches notably of the HTB network whose self proclaimed mission is ‘the evangelisation of the nation’ but which has in truth been ‘the evangelicalisation of the national church’. This project has arguably been achieved, eg with the installation of one of their own as Archbishop of Canterbury and the subsequent promotion of ‘church growth’ strategies that have brought us to our current position. Of course the catastrophic decline in CofE membership is due to many factors, which go beyond the power of… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Mark Andiam
24 days ago

Hardly self proclaimed. I recall Jesus telling his followers to do exactly that.

Mark Andiam
Mark Andiam
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
24 days ago

In which case what is the point of one particular church stating it as their mission? They think they are the salvation of the CofE but I fear they may be the opposite. While you say their network is growing, how is the CofE doing under their captaincy? By the way, a few days ago you suggested that ‘Since the 1980’s a new culture has arisen which is charismatic evangelicalism, that in time will supersede conservative evangelicalism, and we should be grateful for that.’ In response I asked whether you could please explain the substantive (theological and pastoral, not stylistic)… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Mark Andiam
24 days ago

Evangelism is one of the 5 marks of mission of the C of E, but HTB churches make it a particular priority. I don’t know what you mean by captaincy, but they do receive a lot of funding because their vision and strategy is well thought through and they have a strong track record of delivering on what they say they will do because of strong leadership and project management. The C of E has grown in recent years. On your 2nd point I thought I was being a bit over simplistic in saying that and regretted it immediately –… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
23 days ago

‘I would define conservative evangelicals as focusing on the renewal of the mind (Word) whereas as charismatic evangelicals focus on transformation of both the mind and heart (Word and Spirit).’ That’s useful, thanks. Back in the old days of charismatic renewal, ‘charismatic’ meant ‘exercising the charismatic gifts’ – particularly tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge, healing, etc. I’ve been a little puzzled that churches who don’t obviously exercise those gifts have for years been classed as charismatic, but your definition explains why. Of course, in other countries, and in the past here, evangelicalism also engaged the heart as well as the… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Janet Fife
22 days ago

The reformation in England was promoted by the translation of the bible into English and of course Henry VIII becoming head of the church. On the continent it was much more revolutionary led by peasants and there was an on going tension between Luther (Word) and Anabaptists (Spirit). In England Anabaptists were burned at the stake for heresy. Education was certainly at the heart of the English reformation so that even the ploughboy could read the bible, but not remotely in the way you suggest.

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
22 days ago

I haven’t suggested which way the ploughboy could read the Bible!

More seriously, there’s a difference between an emphasis on education (which the Methodists shared), and a version of faith which is largely focussed on the mind, almost to the exclusion of the heart and the body. You said as much above.

Mark Andiam
Mark Andiam
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
23 days ago

Thank you for your thoughtful reply

Nigel Jones
Nigel Jones
Reply to  Mark Andiam
23 days ago

“To evangelise the nation” literally means “to bring good news to the nation”. But it’s highly debatable whether those who think their churches are successful at this are actually bringing good news at all. The historic message, strongly perpetuated today by the evangelical wing of the church, is that we are all sinners but are forgiven if we accept Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross in our place. But is that actually good news? Likewise what many of us (not just evangelicals) long for is to see many more of the population attending our church services? But would that actually be… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Nigel Jones
22 days ago

What you describe as good news is what we have actually got. It’s just that you are apparently intolerant of HTB style Christianity, which always seems to me to be a contradiction of liberalism. The Alpha Course allows people to explore faith, spirituality and meditation, rooted in Christianity and not bound by any particular tradition. So you just seem to argue against yourself on every point.

Nigel Jones
Nigel Jones
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
22 days ago

Hi Adrian. Where Alpha is run to allow genuinely open exploration then I agree with you: that is good and I would have no argument with it. But if, for example, a newcomer in an Alpha discussion is moving towards thinking that the Bible is full of errors, that substitutionary atonement is a poor interpretation of the Cross, that same sex marriage is a good thing, etc- will they be encouraged or corrected? Obviously it will depend on the moderator. But my experience of Alpha, and of the Alpha materials, and of HTB online services, and of the HTB network’s… Read more »

J C Fisher
J C Fisher
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
24 days ago

I think the danger is more that they want to evangelise the CofE (because they hold themselves superior to those not in their club. “Unsound”).

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  J C Fisher
24 days ago

Bishops wouldn’t invite them in if it was about ‘evangelising the C of E’. They aim to reach a younger demographic than your average C of E and they seem to be very successful at doing it as their network seems to be growing everywhere that they plant, which seemingly puts a target on their back for every other contributor to TA.

Francis James
Francis James
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
24 days ago

Party line is that plants are always successful. However that is certainly not true around here, where the plant has been an expensive damp squib

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Francis James
24 days ago

That’s interesting – no doubt the leadership will be changed, unlike other damp squibs.

Francis James
Francis James
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
23 days ago

Suspect more likely that model just not working with local demographics. Clearly team trying hard but no cigar.

Jim Pratt
Jim Pratt
Reply to  Francis James
23 days ago

Ditto here. The local HTB reboot, now 8 years in, is still not self-supporting financially (although building costs are a big part of the problem). And one reason they have not gone under is by rejecting some of the HTB party line (they offer the Alpha Marriage Course to both opposite-sex and same-sex couples)

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Jim Pratt
22 days ago

Then it’s probably not part of the HTB network.

Mark Andiam
Mark Andiam
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
22 days ago

Adrian, can I ask what makes you say that? Because on the Marriage Course website (© Alpha International 2024) it says: ‘We would love any couple to feel welcome to attend The Marriage Course, whether married or in a long-term, cohabitating relationship.’ If you are correct and churches in the HTB network ‘probably’ do not offer the Marriage Course to same-sex couples then perhaps you could explain why they do not make this clear, and how this tallies with the current HTB motto ‘HTB. For all. For London. Always.’ Thanks

David Rowett
David Rowett
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
24 days ago

…but, as has been observed here previously, that outreach to the young has been remarkably reticent about coming clean on the party line on sexuality. Should the young folk within the plants discover that they must sign up to the creed that a large proportion of their peers must never be granted any church recognition of their committed, stable loving relationships, there could be trouble ahead. I also recall how unstable adolescent belief is. Packed were the DICCU meetings when I was a lad, but it’s not (by the CU’S own admission) been translated into adult church membership. We had… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  David Rowett
24 days ago

Up until now the church has been very clear on sex outside of marriage, so it doesn’t need to be preached as such as it is a given. If the church changes its doctrine however, then it will need to be a lot more explicitly taught in orthodox churches I would imagine.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
24 days ago

I trust that more explicit teaching will include denying marriage to any couple who find eachother physically attractive as Jesus included such thoughts in his definition of sex outside of marriage? No? I thought not. None of us apply a strict, literal interpretation of the Bible, and none of us believe we should. The truth is that we ALL apply wisdom (in the Biblical sense) to marriage. That is how we have moved on from arranged marriages. A growing number of us think that we should decide matters with wisdom, and that Jesus taught us to do exactly that. Indeed… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Kate Keates
22 days ago

It would certainly have made life easier if Jesus had instead commanded that all women should wear burkas.

Interested Observer
Interested Observer
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
24 days ago

“Up until now the church has been very clear on sex outside of marriage,” It would be fascinating to know the proportion of people, even of a subset such as “regular attenders at a church which holds strictly to the line that sex outside marriage is always unacceptable”, who marry as virgins. My suspicion is that it’s “very few”, just as it has been for the past fifty years. If you think the hallmark of a sustainable church is hypocrisy, where it preaches an entirely performative message which is ignored by almost everyone, then fine. But to my mind, such… Read more »

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Interested Observer
22 days ago

Amazing grace.

David Rowett
David Rowett
Reply to  Adrian Clarke
24 days ago

Apologies for a post-script which.might be a tad off-topic, but as I toiled over a hot stove (dinner after evensong), it struck me as a bit strange that young people within the HTB tradition are not being taught about the evil of same sex relationships, since it’s (apparently) a first-order issue.

So is it the case that issues central to salvation may be set aside in order to improve marketability? Or is it that HTB etc know darn’ well it’s not a first order matter at all? Help!

Back to the steak and ale pie,
Confused of Barton

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  David Rowett
24 days ago

See above.

TimP
TimP
Reply to  J C Fisher
24 days ago

Likewise many other parts of the CofE would like the evangelical and the traditional/conservative-catholic branches to converted to their “matured” understanding of a broad church. I am sure all of us; at times; wish all Christians had a faith more similar to our own. Because (a) it’s easy to see examples of people (from all traditions) who are not that authentic in their faith – and (b) if we didn’t think our faith tradition was a good and authentic truth about Jesus, then we likely wouldn’t believe it that much. As time goes on, many of us learn and respect… Read more »

Mark Andiam
Mark Andiam
Reply to  TimP
24 days ago

TimP, what you are describing in your first three paragraphs is the traditional Anglican experience — of all traditions —one that leads towards a genuine (if imperfect) recognition of the value of different perspectives, even if one disagrees with them. That imperfect diversity is what has kept the CofE going all this time, and arguably has been part of what has made England a relatively tolerant country. The difference now is that there is a section of the CofE (led by HTB in The Alliance) who do not just disagree, but are willing to be out of communion with the… Read more »

Last edited 24 days ago by Mark Andiam
Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Mark Andiam
24 days ago

“They may not follow all the arguments but they can see it does not represent the country.”

I would go further. I think most people see that it is discordant with their perception of God.

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Kate Keates
23 days ago

I don’t see why people thinking “this represents the country” or “doesn’t represent the country” would help them to have a connection to divine love. That’s probably not what you mean – but I think we sometimes fall into the trap of thinking we need to appear “like” the world to be “appealing” to the world. Recent elections in this country and the US have shown that there is no guarantee that a more liberal and inclusive message will be more popular or engaging; but even if it was I don’t think that’s the reason we should be adopting these… Read more »

J C Fisher
J C Fisher
Reply to  TimP
23 days ago

Recent elections in this country and the US have shown that there is no guarantee that a more liberal and inclusive message will be more popular or engaging

Well, if THAT’S the analogy we’re using, may I suggest that conservative evangelicalism is the FOX News of Christianity? The more you watch, the more disinformation you swallow?

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Mark Andiam
23 days ago

The thing is – – I haven’t seen any real evidence that HTB or the Alliance or etc structurally wants to convert the rest of the CofE.
Certainly the stated goals of the Alliance is to live alongside the rest of the CofE – allowing (for want of a word) the rest of us to be more progressive rather than forcing everyone to hold their views.

Could we say that Anglo-Catholics who have flying bishops are a sect by the same definition that they aren’t happy to be fully integrated?

Mark Andiam
Mark Andiam
Reply to  TimP
23 days ago

Yes. But they aren’t nearly as ambitious to extend their empire. Having said that I do think that it should not be possible to take a church out on anti-women grounds at this late stage, as happened recently to ‘a church near me’. I had left by then but others told me they felt the PCC had been groomed by the vicar.

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Mark Andiam
22 days ago

The Alliance does not want to be out of communion with the C of E.

Openmind
Openmind
Reply to  TimP
24 days ago

If we don’t believe that we believe what we believe because what we believe is RIGHT, then do we actually BELIEVE it at all? Doesn’t it become a temporary piece of half hearted ideological fashion which we’ve chosen to put on for the time being, but could cast off at any moment when something shinier and newer catches our eye?

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Openmind
23 days ago

I’m not sure of your point/question. Or do you jut mean you agree.

Ian Hobbs
Ian Hobbs
Reply to  J C Fisher
24 days ago

The reality is that they are evangelising the non-church population. I don’t know of any church preoccupied with evangelising the cofe. The bigger pond for the nets of fishermen is outside the walls.
Not that it might be a bad thing in some parts… 😉
I’m not an HTB member BTW.

John S
John S
Reply to  Ian Hobbs
23 days ago

There are two different things. The *efforts* of HTB churches are of course focused on non-church-goers. The separate question is what fraction of their numerical growth actually comes from non-church-goers and what fraction from other churches. It’s undoubtedly some of each.

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  John S
22 days ago

This has been well researched and its in the region of 75% I think.

Ian Hobbs
Ian Hobbs
Reply to  John S
22 days ago

Indeed…. but the % of each group is unlikely to have a complete sharp cut of. It’s surely a spectrum in the crossover region of church/non church.

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  Ian Hobbs
17 days ago

True, The % includes those returning to church who previously walked out of traditional church.

Shamus
Shamus
25 days ago

Thank you Jeremy. I think you have expressed and explained it so well.

AH Ronald
AH Ronald
Reply to  Shamus
24 days ago

As an Anglican outwith the C of E I agree. I learned much from his article.

God 'elp us all
God 'elp us all
25 days ago

I commend Martine Oborne and those she represents for ‘hanging in’ despite the over 30 years of those being tolerated to continue to discriminate against women on the basis of so-called ‘mutual flourishing’ at women’s continuing expense. It is to be hoped that the next Archbishop of Canterbury may be able to give time and impetus to eliminating this institutionalised discrimination, which is illegal in the realm beyond the established church.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  God 'elp us all
24 days ago

Hear, hear

TimP
TimP
Reply to  God 'elp us all
24 days ago

illegal in the realm beyond the established church”

Pretty sure Muslims have an exemption as well….

That doesn’t make it right – – but your argument doesn’t make it wrong either.

I personally do want to see more female Bishops – but my reasoning is not to do with the legal framework of the UK – and I don’t believe it should be.

Nigel Aston
Nigel Aston
Reply to  God 'elp us all
24 days ago

The next Archbishop of Canterbury – and it will probably be a ‘he’ while the majority of the Anglican communion considers England the mother province – need to hang on to every Anglican he can not seek to expel those whom Martine Oborne seems to find so objectionable. With LLF still on the boil and party divisions entrenched another fight about scraping the Five Guiding Principles is the last thing anyone needs. A bit more mutual respect and understanding of other points of view is surely to be commended in these troubled times.

Cheryl Collins
Cheryl Collins
Reply to  Nigel Aston
24 days ago

FOR 30 years I have served in a church in which some members don’t actually think I am a priest. It doesn’t get easier to bear, it gets harder. I would love some mutual respect and understanding of my point of view, but alas all I hear is other people telling me how important their consciences are while (like the other women priests who serve in the Church of England) I continue to hope and pray that the arc of God’s universe will indeed allow for a true flourishing in the church that I continue to love despite the appalling… Read more »

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Nigel Aston
24 days ago

How do you reconcile the injustice of how women are being treated with the Justice the Bible teaches us to uphold? Or do you think that Justice should be sacrificed on the altar of political convenience?

Last edited 24 days ago by Kate Keates
Lottie E Allen
Reply to  Nigel Aston
24 days ago

That is precisely why the CofE needs a sabbatical from the post colonial baggage of being the “mother church”. We have had enough of not being able to do stuff because of that. And yes we do so need a woman as ABC 106. And we need an honest debate to end the institutionalised misogeny of “mutual flourishing”. We have to address the huge mistake we made in 1994. We have paid for it ever since. It’s time to stop ordaining people who are opposed to the Ordination of Women. Please spare us the “mutual respect” for the misogeny.

J C Fisher
J C Fisher
Reply to  Lottie E Allen
23 days ago

That’s the route the United Methodists took in the U.S. Go build your homophobic “Global Methodist Church”, the United Methodists are at last FREE to follow the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Adrian Clarke
Adrian Clarke
Reply to  J C Fisher
22 days ago

That’s not quite how it happened. The United Methodists voted in favour of traditional marriage, but discipline broke down at that point, and the United Methodists who upheld the decision of conference recognised that this would continue to affect the mission of the church for the foreseeable future and decided that it was better for everyone that they left. Freedom works both ways, but at the expense of 1 million members in the case of the United Methodists church (and counting).

V F Chester
V F Chester
Reply to  Nigel Aston
24 days ago

“ . . . [t]hose whom Martine Oborne seems to find so objectionable”, not just Martine, me too – I’m sorry, I have never commented here or on any site before but you are talking about me, and I don’t find those who can’t accept my ordained ministry “objectionable”, but their ‘theology’, their discrimination, and their bias is. I am scraping my pot of graciousness and finding little left to offer and this makes me truly sad; and, as Bishop Hudson Wilkin reminded us earlier this year, I am tired to my bones of having womens’ graciousness “weaponised against us.”… Read more »

Francis James
Francis James
Reply to  Nigel Aston
23 days ago

It is not only women who regard the 5 guiding principles as seriously weighted against them, & see ‘mutual respect’ as one way street where female priests have to be gracious while the anti female brigade can gaslight them & worse. Given LLF debate it is of interest that in my Dio much of the worst anti female behaviour has come from male priests who are all too obviously in the closet.

Lottie E Allen
24 days ago

R4 Sunday interesting interviews about the appointment of the next Archbishop of Canterbury (ABC). Very disconcerting to hear the next appointment could be fast tracked. That is the last thing we need. Revd Charles Walker telling Michael Banner that “feeding the poor” is a left wing take on the Gospel tells us everything that we need to know about theological conservatives in the CofE and political conservatives in the country. And the conservative evangelical interviewee did not have the moral courage to acknowledge that she was opposed to a woman as the next ABC. Instead offering noise about “people in… Read more »

Lottie E Allen
Reply to  Lottie E Allen
24 days ago

Ps apologies for the typo: “Marcus” not “Charles”.

Susanna (no ‘h’)
Susanna (no ‘h’)
Reply to  Lottie E Allen
24 days ago

And we absolutely don’t need a new ABC before the others implicated in the Smythe cover up /institutionalised mishandling fall on their swords (fat chance) or are rooted out
A period of penitence is called for, not a swift move to further obfuscation and cover up

Realist
Realist
Reply to  Susanna (no ‘h’)
24 days ago

Absolutely, Susanna. I cringe and feel physically sick every time I read a comment that speaks of a ‘moment of opportunity’ to move on quickly, or something of that ilk. It may well turn out to be so, in time, but there are penitence, honesty and accountability to do first. Otherwise, the ‘moment of opportunity’ will turn out to be to bury the horror of abuse, negligence and complacency and gloss it all over as we stagger to the next crisis. Fr Dean – you are not alone. This morning there were several of us, laity and clergy, in tears… Read more »

Last edited 24 days ago by Realist
Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Lottie E Allen
24 days ago

“The CofE needs a sabbatical from the role of being “Mother Church” of the international communion to sort itself out.”

That sentiment is already widely abroad outwith the CofE, so it is good to see it arising from within it.

Philip Groves
Philip Groves
Reply to  Anglican Priest
24 days ago

In 1954 Archbishop Michael Ramsey declared that no church should be called a mother church (the Episcopal Church is considered ‘mother’ by many that it founded). only people ignorant of the history of the Anglican Communion think the C of E is the mother church.

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Philip Groves
23 days ago

Could not agree more. The quoted statement comes from a member of the CofE. I’ll spare you the unpacking the implications of that mindset.

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Philip Groves
23 days ago

“Predatory Father Church of England sends off its own: to triple down on abuse in Africa” would be a good cultural study. This entire thing is horrendous. But perhaps worst of all is just looking the other way and exporting a madman to continue his abuse in Zimbabwe and South Africa. The Prospect article is chilling.

Clifford Jones
Clifford Jones
Reply to  Philip Groves
22 days ago

A minor point, but Michael Ramsey did not become an archbishop until 1956. I do not know where the statement quoted was published. Ramsey did however publish in 1956 a compilation called ‘Durham Essays and Addresses’, appertaining to his time as Bishop of Durham. The publisher was SPCK. My conjecture would be that the statement quoted is in that, in which case he made it as Bishop Ramsey and published it as Archbishop Ramsey. Corroboration or correction from any TA reader with a copy of ‘Durham Essays and Addresses’ to hand would be most welcome.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Lottie E Allen
24 days ago

I thought Susie Leafe had left the C of E and Anglican Futures was there to advise and help evangelicals leave the C of E for ACNA? Am I wrong?

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Perry Butler
23 days ago

I agree. I thought she was a fairly strange guest for the BBC to have invited.

Robert Cotton
Robert Cotton
24 days ago

A warm recommendation to read “Lower than the angels: a history of sex and Christianity” by Diarmaid MacCulloch. The whole book is worthy of close study, setting contexts for how the church universal has navigated thse matters for centuries. Page 475 mentions Smyth and his context explicitly. But page 428 onwards sets the scene and explains Public School Religion. That is what requires change, and repentance. It may have served a specific purpose once. But it ill serves the Gospel of Jesus now. Whereas the whole book is delightful, the final 100 pages explains so much of the angst and… Read more »

Andrew Kleissner
Andrew Kleissner
Reply to  Robert Cotton
23 days ago

My wife is reading the book but hasn’t get got that far!

Pilgrim
Pilgrim
Reply to  Robert Cotton
23 days ago

Robert, thank you, I have ordered it from the library ( and there is a lengthy queue).

Francis James
Francis James
24 days ago

Attended very small & ancient country church today, & even in that sleepy corner of rural England the sense of anger about incompetent CofE leadership as regards safeguarding was very real. In particular nobody can understand why bishops should continue to be allowed any control over safeguarding.

Openmind
Openmind
Reply to  Francis James
24 days ago

I hesitate to enter this debate, and I may simply be wrong here. But an unanswered question in my mind about ‘Independent Safeguarding ‘ is where it leaves the locus of church discipline. I’m not talking about crimes, or grevious non-criminal transgressions a la Soul Survivor. But does Independent Safeguarding mean that decisions about risk assessment and permitted parameters of ministry in situations of ‘lesser’ gravity are to be taken away from those holding ministerial authority in the church, and given to some non-ecclesiastical power? If so, does church discipline qua church discipline exist any more, or will we create… Read more »

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Openmind
24 days ago

I think you have a point; re: why should Bishops be responsible for safeguarding – because by definition they are always responsible / the ones who will be held responsible. I am responsible for not speeding when I drive. But I shouldn’t be responsible for decided if I was speeding or not. I think the future is some form of independent investigation of safeguarding allegations; but “internal” deciding what to do about it – upto – but not including – crimes. A key failing of e.g. Soul Survivor – was that no one felt they were responsible outside of that… Read more »

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Openmind
23 days ago

Do you think that the Government has given up its authority because investigation of crimes is given over to the police and judiciary?

Rory Gillis
Rory Gillis
24 days ago

Some very good articles linked here. I especially appreciated Martine Oborne, Jeremy Pemberton, and Harriet Sherwood. As the latter indicates in her Guardian piece, there are parallels between this crisis in the C of E/Anglican Communion and the abuse scandal in the R.C. Church after the The Boston Globe broke the story in 2002. I have my own views on this which include but are not limited to the experience of growing up in the Catholic Church. So, the institution takes its historical founder, eventually proclaiming him a god who is nominally human and of course non-sexual, presenting him first… Read more »

Graham Watts
24 days ago

As the process of the CNC is working its way through the existing list of vacancies for diocesan bishops can anyone tell me how the need to select an ABC affects that. Does the CNC for the ABC take priority and so delay diocesans or can the CNC for the ABC run alongside the main process? I am assuming that the ABC process will not be added to the back of the queue but I am prepared to be astonished by learning otherwise.
Thank you

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Graham Watts
23 days ago

I think many of us will also want to know that ++Justin won’t be sitting on any of those CNCs

House of Survivors
Reply to  Kate Keates
23 days ago

It has come to the attention of House of Survivors that the CNC has problematic concerns (note plural) that need addressing before a next Archbishop can be chosen. We hope the bishops, and in particular of one diocese, will address the concern.

We have said this as diplomatically as we can. and will forward this message to the Bishop of that diocese and their Archbishop.

Gilo
Gilo
Reply to  House of Survivors
21 days ago

In response received yesterday, the diocesan bishop agreed that is “not a satisfactory situation.” They point out that sadly as the CNC membership is synodically elected they can’t intervene directly… but they will contact the person concerned (which is intervention as I understand it) Unless addressed very soon, this is likely to be another media story. It may be that journalists are already on this from other sources. Stories seem to be coming fast and furious at present as the media are now fully awake to just how much of an institutional mess CofE Inc is at ‘upper storey’ level.… Read more »

Nick Becket
Nick Becket
Reply to  Gilo
21 days ago

I can only guess at who you might be referring to, but as far as clergy members of the CNC are concerned, I fancy that if the bishop were to withdraw a PTO (something I gather is at the bishop’s discretion) then that clergy person would no longer be entitled to be a member of the General Synod, and so no longer entitled to be a General Synod elected member of the CNC. I don’t think there is any similar process available in the case of a lay person though. But if it is a cleric with a PTO then… Read more »

Nick Becket
Nick Becket
Reply to  Graham Watts
23 days ago

Peter Owen maintains a list of vacancies and CNC dates at http://peterowen.org.uk/articles/vacantsees.html.

You can see that there is a bit of a gap after the Durham CNC at the end of November until St Eds & Ips in March. And then a further gap until Ely tries again in May and June, I suspect there is plenty of room to insert Canterbury into this process.

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Graham Watts
23 days ago

The suddenness of the departure (although it may be some time before his resignation takes effect) does raise this issue. I suspect that normally there is several months notice for this to be planned. In the past the new Archbishop of Canterbury has been announced before his predecessor has left office. I don’t know if the five Anglican Communion representative have been chosen. It could take a while. Will they fly to England or meet over Zoom (other video conferencing platforms are available)? Will the new Archbishop of Canterbury be the first to be elected in meetings at which the… Read more »

Graham Watts
Reply to  Simon Bravery
21 days ago

I was reading about the make up of the CNC for the ABC and saw that it includes; ‘Five representatives from other churches in the Anglican Communion – one each from Africa; the Americas; Middle East and Asia; Oceania and Europe. These representatives have to include at least two women and two men and at least three of them have to be of ‘Global Majority Heritage.’ That just sounds like a difficult task in itself to achieve, considering the criteria and supposing that the Anglican Communion have to be content with their representatives.

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
23 days ago

Many people say the job of ABC is impossible. Shouldn’t thought be given to making it less so? The last two archbishops had a very difficult time. Do we really want history to repeat itself?

Alwyn Hall
Alwyn Hall
Reply to  Perry Butler
23 days ago

I have been considering this for some time. The ABC is three jobs in one: Head of the Anglican Communion, Diocesan Bishop of Canterbury, Head of the CofE. So: 1) The Anglican Communion becomes an organisation with a rotating chair. Archbishops chair for 6 months each. The office (which I believe to be quite small) could be kept at Lambeth. The Communion remains rooted in Anglicanism but celebrates its global leadership. 2) I believe the Bishop of Dover is effectively the Diocesan. Make the Bishop of Dover the substantive Diocesan of Canterbury. Retain the names ABC and +Dover for now.… Read more »

Simon Kershaw
Reply to  Alwyn Hall
23 days ago

Many of us, however, take the view that there is something to be said for the view that the primary role of the Archbishop of Canterbury should be that of being the bishop of eastern Kent, and that any pther roles derive only from that. To divorce the Archbishop from his jurisdiction would be a step in the wrong direction.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Perry Butler
23 days ago

I don’t think ++Justin has done his successor any favours by changing the composition of the next CNC rather than changing the role to reduce the international element. When the English church is facing so many challenges, pretty obviously that ought to be the primary, almost exclusive, focus.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Kate Keates
22 days ago

It was a category mistake, and I said so at the time, and it was developed by ++Cantuar alone, although it has to be said General Synod approved it. The central members of the CNC at the time were the first to hear of it I recall. However, it is not the case that the Canterbury CNC is bound to be joined by five conservatives from around the Anglican Communion. The Joint Standing Committee of the Primates Meeting of the Anglican Communion and the Anglican Communion choose the five persons. They may have done so already in preparation. The process… Read more »

Tim
Tim
Reply to  Anthony Archer
22 days ago

Will those Provinces and bishops who have recently repudiated the titular leadership of the ABC now renounce any involvement in nominating candidates to the CNC?

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Tim
22 days ago

Once the identity of the five Anglican Communion regional ‘representatives’ is known, there will be forensic examination of their suitability and church tradition.

Last edited 22 days ago by Anthony Archer
Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Anthony Archer
22 days ago

I agree with those who believe Canterbury ought to be focused on affairs in the CofE, especially given its many challenges at present.

It has been held that the five representatives will storm the CNC to take up the cause of conservatives in the CofE. Your analysis departs from that view.

Anthony Archer
Anthony Archer
Reply to  Anthony Archer
22 days ago

… in line seven above, for <Anglican Communion> read <Anglican Consultative Council>

Tim Evans
Tim Evans
Reply to  Perry Butler
23 days ago

I don’t think it’s primarily the size of the role – diocesan bishop, provincial archbishop, national figure, leader of the Anglican communion, et al – which has always been huge, but the changed demands of leadership in C21. Part of the difficulty is that in a 24 hour news and social media age comment is immediate, free, unaccountable, often anonymous and increasingly vicious. It’s clear that the media have a list of clergy they contact on any controversial topic to give conflicting views often with a spiteful edge to what they say; the same voices keep on appearing on TV,… Read more »

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Tim Evans
23 days ago

I agree totally. Re the Anglican Communion role I think the ABC should take a leaf from the Ecumenical Patriarch.He doesn’t often leave his see city. Autocephalous Churches are ideally in communion with him ( and of course some break communion) but they look after themselves.

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Perry Butler
22 days ago

I like to think that in the Anglican Church of Canada we already look after ourselves!

Nigel Jones
Nigel Jones
Reply to  Perry Butler
23 days ago

“Shouldn’t thought be given to making the job of the ABC less impossible?” Yes, absolutely. Not only does it have an unpleasant imperial feel, all this is happening at the same time that some parts of the worldwide Anglican Communion have already rejected the leadership of ++Justin and will do the same of any ABC who doesn’t conform to their ideas. Can the role of the ABC not be redefined to be focussed solely on England? Let the Anglican Communion elect its own leader? Let each national church decide for itself who it’s in communion with? I don’t know- it… Read more »

Last edited 23 days ago by Nigel Jones
Froghole
Froghole
Reply to  Perry Butler
23 days ago

Many thanks but I would suggest that there are already structures in place which would permit a future archbishop from dissipating his or her energies on too many fronts. For example, why not have the Anglican Communion secretariat do the work which has apparently consumed at least a third of Justin Welby’s time? There is already a secretary-general who can do all the work of the archbishop in that regard. There is no need for a future archbishop to even pretend to be a ‘first among equals’. Similarly, for more than 40 years the archbishops have largely neglected their own… Read more »

Perry Butler
Perry Butler
Reply to  Froghole
23 days ago

I read this after I submitted my last comment but I agree. I think John Paul 2 didn’t help things. By casting himself as universal Pastor and flying here there and everywhere international travel to Anglican Provinces was foisted on the ABC…..they wanted an alterius orbis papa but given the nature of the Anglican Communion this was an inevitable problem. The 1930 Lambeth Conference described the Communion as a “federation without a federal government” and certainly in the last 50 years or so the problems have become acute. Attempts to advance cohesion have largely failed not least because there is… Read more »

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
Reply to  Froghole
23 days ago

Good evening. Always good to have your serious facts and analysis.

why not have the Anglican Communion secretariat do the work which has apparently consumed at least a third of Justin Welby’s time?”

If he has spent this much time on the AC, what does he have to show for it? At a time when the very idea of him, or the CofE, needing to be “of assistance” (for lack of a better term, in any concrete sense) to an Anglican Communion observing the severe declension of the CofE, makes the premise questionable.

I know it is not yours.  

Anglican in Exile
Anglican in Exile
Reply to  Perry Butler
23 days ago

I second this. I sincerely hope that this present desperate crisis leads to a very careful rethink BEFORE any selection process begins. I had a little bit to do with Lambeth Palace and the Anglican Communion in Carey’s time. It was glaringly obvious at that stage, observing from the outside, that the job of Archbishop of Canterbury was a stupidly impossible set of conflicting tasks rolled into one. Let’s start with the fact that there is no reason whatsoever why the ABC should continue to be the lead figure of the Anglican Communion, nor why members of totally independent Anglican… Read more »

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Anglican in Exile
22 days ago

It might happen.

“C of E may need to rethink archbishop of Canterbury role, senior cleric says.” That’s the Guardian reporting ABY.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/18/c-of-e-may-need-to-rethink-archbishop-of-canterbury-role-senior-cleric-says

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
23 days ago

If the moderators will allow me an off-topic comment, can I say how much I am enjoying the depth of discussion on TA at the moment. There is often as much information in the comments as in the articles themselves.

My thanks to everyone who contributes to make TA so special, and to the wonderful moderators for making it possible.

Wenlock
Wenlock
23 days ago

Can anybody tell when the Most Reverend Justin Welby, having resigned, will actually quit his office? Surely Lambeth Palace staff can clear his diary and he can clear his desk. He should cease to exercise the office of Archbishop immediately as would anyone else who has had to resign in disgrace. But he appears to be finessing his resignation into an early retirement.

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Wenlock
23 days ago

He may have to sort out his accommodation. Lambeth Palace and the Old Palace at Canterbury are very grand tied cottages, but they are tied cottages nonetheless. When he stops doing the job, he and his wife lose the roof over their heads.

As well as clearing his desk he and his wife have to pack in what have been their homes for over 11 years and order the removal vans. I would allow him a reasonable time to do so.

God 'elp us all
God 'elp us all
Reply to  Simon Bravery
23 days ago

The departing Archbishop should of course receive just the same time to leave as any parish priest, the same generosity regarding removal expenses and the same access to a retirement property, which I hope he will find adequate.

Wenlock
Wenlock
Reply to  God 'elp us all
23 days ago

I am not asking when he is vacating his accommodation but his desk & his ‘office’. He will receive his pension of course. But he is resigning because of personal failures that mean he should immediately step back from his role as archbishop in the same way as he required the former Bishop of Lincoln to do.

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Wenlock
21 days ago

He has stepped back from all safeguarding with the exception of meeting survivors. I would imagine some people will ask his opinion – but I would imagine he will do his best to not sign anything in his name / take any decisions. He said he has various constitutional duties to take care of – – but I would expect we won’t see any announcements. I expect behind the scenes work – – and quite right too – we should get some value out of him…. I’d be willing to bet he was going to be the face for this… Read more »

Shamus
Shamus
Reply to  God 'elp us all
22 days ago

When I retired and moved out of The Rectory I received zero removal expenses. Not all dioceses pay. It is a postcode lottery. Typical CofE unjust anomaly.

God 'elp us all
God 'elp us all
Reply to  Shamus
22 days ago

Yes, 40-odd policies and their application. Similarly 40-odd different stipends. Who decides for an outgoing/ resigned Arch bishop. Could he be expected (and by whom?) to work out his notice period, if any.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Simon Bravery
22 days ago

If someone has to resign (ie it wasn’t planned) and has a dependent or dependents in tied accommodation, then I think additional time should be granted. The dependent(s) has/have done nothing wrong, yet their life is subject to unexpected upheaval. If necessary the incoming priest/bishop could be put in rental accommodation for six months.

I suspect that isn’t church policy… But it should be.

God 'elp us all
God 'elp us all
Reply to  Kate Keates
22 days ago

Kate, the same for other offenders. When someone is sentenced to a period ‘at his majesty’s pleasure’ their dependents have to ‘suck it up’ and suffer similar indignities, often (usually?) without support from a sympathetic hinterland, community or friends, including at school.

Wenlock
Wenlock
Reply to  Kate Keates
22 days ago

I’m sorry but you misunderstand what I am asking. I repeat that I am not asking why he and his family have not vacated their tied accommodation. I am asking to know whether he has actually stopped doing the job of archbishop with immediate effect. And if not, why not.

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Wenlock
21 days ago

He will delegate his functions to the Archbishop of York at Epiphany

https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/news/news-and-statements/statement-lambeth-palace

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Wenlock
21 days ago

His date of resignation will be agreed with the Privy Council.

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