Colin’s dream sounds remarkably like HTB’s vision, but we also have a helpful interpretation of the dream which sounds very familiar to what’s been said before, so I am not sure what the purpose of the dream is, other than for the dreamer to validate the dream and dream to validate the dreamer. Even in HTB churches eyebrows would be raised!
Adrian, my purpose in recounting the dream and posting it in the public domain was indeed to validate the dream. Whether the dream validates the dreamer is an open question for me. If eyebrows in HTB circles are raised, that’s a bonus. There’s a supplementary reason. When HTB people dream dreams and when people recount dreams from the Bible they are validated. I don’t expect my dream to be validated. Radical progressives can’t have dreams that are valid, or are only valid when subjected to a Jungian interpretation! It was a dream about the present, not the future, not, for… Read more »
A ‘doom loop’? Fortunately the churches you dismiss as superficial are able to break this cycle and we see this every week. Unfortunately all I see in your posts is more doom and yet more doom!
Janet Fife
23 days ago
Colin, thank you for sharing your dream. I’ve been thinking for some time that there are two extremes re dreams, visions, and experiences of God: the charismatics (I’m post-charismatic myself) talk of them all the time, and too often without discernment; and the rest of the C of E, who consider it almost indecent to discuss them. I think life, for us and for the Church, lies in a middle way. So thank you for opening the conversation. However, I’m a little concerned that you don’t consider a church which isn’t open during the week is one you’d want to… Read more »
Thank you for commenting, Janet. I don’t think dreams are indecent. I think mine are fascinating insights into my unconscious, providing a window into what I’m worrying about once I’ve slipped out of my relentlessly conscious activity. I do not assume that my dreams are miraculous revelatory insights into what God wants to reveal to me – and through me, to the world – which is what dreams in the Bible seem to be taken as (shoot me down, readers of TA – this is an off the top of my head thought). I understand your personal reaction to my… Read more »
Didn’t one of the speakers in the debate in the Scottish Parliament about the Union with England say in response to the earl of Belhaven’s speech about his dream of Caledonia ”I too had a dream, but I awoke, and it was only a dream”? I wish I could give chapter and verse, but it’s something lodged in my mind from long ago.
What is more to the point than what may have been said during the dying days of the first Scottish Parliament are some words of T.E.Lawrence, quoted in S.S.Montefiore’s recent book on the Middle East – ”The Cauldron”, ”Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible”.
Tom, thank you for posting the quote from T.E.Lawrence. Am I a dreamer who has dreamed in the dusty recesses of my mind and awoken in the day to find that it was vanity? I dreamt in the night and awoke in the night to record my memory of it. In the day, when I awoke again, I remembered the dream and it’s significance for me. I realised it might have a wider significance and a few days later, decided to post it as a blog. Or am I a dreamer of the day, a dangerous person, dreaming with open… Read more »
Looking at the CNC composition , my money would be on an evangelical for the next Bishop of London, or a failure to appoint.
According to a recent article in the Church Times, about two thirds of candidates accepted for ordination training are evangelical. I would therefore expect this to be the overall direction of travel for the C of E as they move into incumbent equivalent roles.
Simon – the word evangelical embraces a very wide diversity of belief and practice, from conservative Biblical fundamentalists to charismatics to Accepting Evangelicals. The direction of travel will be more complex and fragmented than simply an “evangelical” dominance. The same applies to the London appointment. If he or she is an evangelical, the practical outcome will depend on which category is appointed.
Our church wasn’t historic, though it did have ground-breaking (for the 1970s) architecture. And it was used during the week for everything from carers and tots groups and children’s holiday clubs to tea and chat for the elderly, and police community liaison meetings. But we didn’t have enough people to keep it open all the time. Many a poor church with small congregation doesn’t. As you say, it requires energy, resource, and imagination – but imagination doesn’t keep the vandals away, and insurance companies won’t pay up if the church is unlocked. I share your frustration with the rich and… Read more »
Insurance companies DO pay up if the church is open and unattended. Most people don’t even ask them. We are only permitted to use one insurance company in the CofE and they do not consider there is a difference in risk between a locked church and an unlocked church. Often very costly damage is caused by people breaking doors and windows to gain access which would not happen if they had been able to walk through an open door. If the church is open it will mostly be entered by honest people who represent the vast majority of the population… Read more »
We had more than sufficient evidence that troublemakers would trash the building if given the opportunity. The broken windows, graffiti, dog poo, etc told their own story. And there was a lot of arson on the estate, including at least two attempts on the vicarage in my 10 years there. The insurers got tired of paying out.
Janet, our church is in a ‘difficult’ area with short stay hostels, exempt accommodation, former hotels housing asylum seekers, and high levels of prostitution and drug abuse. It is open every day all week and has been for 25 years without any serious incident apart from the theft of a brass eagle a couple of years ago. It was returned a week later.
Your church has been fortunate. I have ministered in 6 churches over nearly 30 years, and only one of them – a cathedral – didn’t suffer theft or vandalism during the time I was with them. Some were in poor areas, others more middle class. Sometimes the damage occurred in broad daylight; sometimes when the church was open and people inside.
Post evangelical, post charismatic, I suppose everyone has a particular grievance, but that is the nature of post modernism. Trying to change the world before knowing how to change your socks,
I term myself post-charismatic because I don’t want to ally myself in a particular way with what the charismatic movement has become. In many ways I’m still the teenager who was baptised with the Holy Spirit in 1971 – just a sadder and wiser version of her. Incidentally I do know how to change my socks – I changed them for alternative kinds of footwear years ago.
I was referring to post modernism in general – and charismatic churches in particular. Lots of mistakes made but hopefully a gentler and humbler church has emerged.
Fr Dexter Bracey
21 days ago
I’ve been pondering Mark Clavier’s piece. It seems to me that he has avoided the fundamental question of what stipendiary ministry is for: the stipend is to enable a priest to be free from other employment in order to be available for ministry. The stipend allows the space for clergy to be able to lead the Tuesday afternoon Bible study, take the Friday morning assembly, be available for funerals as and when required, and to have the time to visit people, as well as to pray, study and teach. I’m not saying that non-stipendiary clergy don’t do these things, but… Read more »
Thanks for the engagement. Please be assured that I very much had in mind that a stipend isn’t a salary, but rather provision for clergy to be free to focus on their ministry (though it was probably healthier for us when we had to farm our glebes, too!). In fact, the premise of my piece (and my opening story) was how we can better grow stipendiary ministry rather than settle for the slow attrition. What inspired me to write the essay, among other things, was realising that it would be difficult here to mimic what happened in my first church… Read more »
Colin’s dream sounds remarkably like HTB’s vision, but we also have a helpful interpretation of the dream which sounds very familiar to what’s been said before, so I am not sure what the purpose of the dream is, other than for the dreamer to validate the dream and dream to validate the dreamer. Even in HTB churches eyebrows would be raised!
Adrian, my purpose in recounting the dream and posting it in the public domain was indeed to validate the dream. Whether the dream validates the dreamer is an open question for me. If eyebrows in HTB circles are raised, that’s a bonus. There’s a supplementary reason. When HTB people dream dreams and when people recount dreams from the Bible they are validated. I don’t expect my dream to be validated. Radical progressives can’t have dreams that are valid, or are only valid when subjected to a Jungian interpretation! It was a dream about the present, not the future, not, for… Read more »
A ‘doom loop’? Fortunately the churches you dismiss as superficial are able to break this cycle and we see this every week. Unfortunately all I see in your posts is more doom and yet more doom!
Colin, thank you for sharing your dream. I’ve been thinking for some time that there are two extremes re dreams, visions, and experiences of God: the charismatics (I’m post-charismatic myself) talk of them all the time, and too often without discernment; and the rest of the C of E, who consider it almost indecent to discuss them. I think life, for us and for the Church, lies in a middle way. So thank you for opening the conversation. However, I’m a little concerned that you don’t consider a church which isn’t open during the week is one you’d want to… Read more »
Thank you for commenting, Janet. I don’t think dreams are indecent. I think mine are fascinating insights into my unconscious, providing a window into what I’m worrying about once I’ve slipped out of my relentlessly conscious activity. I do not assume that my dreams are miraculous revelatory insights into what God wants to reveal to me – and through me, to the world – which is what dreams in the Bible seem to be taken as (shoot me down, readers of TA – this is an off the top of my head thought). I understand your personal reaction to my… Read more »
Didn’t one of the speakers in the debate in the Scottish Parliament about the Union with England say in response to the earl of Belhaven’s speech about his dream of Caledonia ”I too had a dream, but I awoke, and it was only a dream”? I wish I could give chapter and verse, but it’s something lodged in my mind from long ago.
I have no idea; but that does remind me of the last line of “The Pilgrim’s Progress”: “So I awoke, and behold, it was a dream”.
What is more to the point than what may have been said during the dying days of the first Scottish Parliament are some words of T.E.Lawrence, quoted in S.S.Montefiore’s recent book on the Middle East – ”The Cauldron”, ”Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible”.
Tom, thank you for posting the quote from T.E.Lawrence. Am I a dreamer who has dreamed in the dusty recesses of my mind and awoken in the day to find that it was vanity? I dreamt in the night and awoke in the night to record my memory of it. In the day, when I awoke again, I remembered the dream and it’s significance for me. I realised it might have a wider significance and a few days later, decided to post it as a blog. Or am I a dreamer of the day, a dangerous person, dreaming with open… Read more »
Looking at the CNC composition , my money would be on an evangelical for the next Bishop of London, or a failure to appoint.
According to a recent article in the Church Times, about two thirds of candidates accepted for ordination training are evangelical. I would therefore expect this to be the overall direction of travel for the C of E as they move into incumbent equivalent roles.
Simon – the word evangelical embraces a very wide diversity of belief and practice, from conservative Biblical fundamentalists to charismatics to Accepting Evangelicals. The direction of travel will be more complex and fragmented than simply an “evangelical” dominance. The same applies to the London appointment. If he or she is an evangelical, the practical outcome will depend on which category is appointed.
Our church wasn’t historic, though it did have ground-breaking (for the 1970s) architecture. And it was used during the week for everything from carers and tots groups and children’s holiday clubs to tea and chat for the elderly, and police community liaison meetings. But we didn’t have enough people to keep it open all the time. Many a poor church with small congregation doesn’t. As you say, it requires energy, resource, and imagination – but imagination doesn’t keep the vandals away, and insurance companies won’t pay up if the church is unlocked. I share your frustration with the rich and… Read more »
Insurance companies DO pay up if the church is open and unattended. Most people don’t even ask them. We are only permitted to use one insurance company in the CofE and they do not consider there is a difference in risk between a locked church and an unlocked church. Often very costly damage is caused by people breaking doors and windows to gain access which would not happen if they had been able to walk through an open door. If the church is open it will mostly be entered by honest people who represent the vast majority of the population… Read more »
We had more than sufficient evidence that troublemakers would trash the building if given the opportunity. The broken windows, graffiti, dog poo, etc told their own story. And there was a lot of arson on the estate, including at least two attempts on the vicarage in my 10 years there. The insurers got tired of paying out.
Janet, our church is in a ‘difficult’ area with short stay hostels, exempt accommodation, former hotels housing asylum seekers, and high levels of prostitution and drug abuse. It is open every day all week and has been for 25 years without any serious incident apart from the theft of a brass eagle a couple of years ago. It was returned a week later.
Your church has been fortunate. I have ministered in 6 churches over nearly 30 years, and only one of them – a cathedral – didn’t suffer theft or vandalism during the time I was with them. Some were in poor areas, others more middle class. Sometimes the damage occurred in broad daylight; sometimes when the church was open and people inside.
Post evangelical, post charismatic, I suppose everyone has a particular grievance, but that is the nature of post modernism. Trying to change the world before knowing how to change your socks,
I term myself post-charismatic because I don’t want to ally myself in a particular way with what the charismatic movement has become. In many ways I’m still the teenager who was baptised with the Holy Spirit in 1971 – just a sadder and wiser version of her. Incidentally I do know how to change my socks – I changed them for alternative kinds of footwear years ago.
I was referring to post modernism in general – and charismatic churches in particular. Lots of mistakes made but hopefully a gentler and humbler church has emerged.
I’ve been pondering Mark Clavier’s piece. It seems to me that he has avoided the fundamental question of what stipendiary ministry is for: the stipend is to enable a priest to be free from other employment in order to be available for ministry. The stipend allows the space for clergy to be able to lead the Tuesday afternoon Bible study, take the Friday morning assembly, be available for funerals as and when required, and to have the time to visit people, as well as to pray, study and teach. I’m not saying that non-stipendiary clergy don’t do these things, but… Read more »
Thanks for the engagement. Please be assured that I very much had in mind that a stipend isn’t a salary, but rather provision for clergy to be free to focus on their ministry (though it was probably healthier for us when we had to farm our glebes, too!). In fact, the premise of my piece (and my opening story) was how we can better grow stipendiary ministry rather than settle for the slow attrition. What inspired me to write the essay, among other things, was realising that it would be difficult here to mimic what happened in my first church… Read more »