Andrew Goddard Psephizo Canterbury tales: what happens next?
Neil Patterson and Helen King Together for the Church of England Together write to the House of Bishops
“concerns about those excluded from the discernment process and ordination training due to their marital status”
Marcus Walker The Critic Anglican churchgoers need the Real Thing
“The Church of England is falling behind because we’re serving such thin gruel”
Michael Hampson ViaMedia.News We used to Have Liturgy: Now we Have Bureaucracy
Patterson and King: ‘Across the Church of England are a significant number of faithful disciples who feel called to explore ordained or licensed ministry, but are currently unable to do so because they are married to a person of the same sex, or intend to be so…’ A vocations drought, or even crisis, isn’t sufficient to dictate the re-evaluation of church doctrine and associated discipline, though, is it? To claim to be ‘married’ to a person of the same sex is an act of faithlessness to the church’s teaching. This is a manifestly reasonable reason for being precluded from consideration… Read more »
To my mind, the problem is not that they are barred. As you say, it proves a lack of faithfulness of church dogma, and a piece of church dogma that us s major issue of the day.
The problem is that people who share that rejection, but happen not to be so inclined are not barred.
You will need the Orwellian Thought Police to ensure nobody enters your church who is at all inclined against your church dogma.
It is not “thought police” to think that people who want to be in ordained Anglican ministry should hold to the faith. Indeed, we already insist that they swear that they do – vocations just look the other way when the fingers are crossed.
“Hold to the faith” can mean different things to different people. Is the faith what is outlined in the historic creeds? Or is it in the doctrines and canons of the CoE? Or in the edicts of the bishops or synod?
None of those permit man-laying or men marrying men, so its rather a moot point.
The creeds make absolutely no mention of sexual practices at all…they are silent on the subject, indicating (to me, at least), that it is of very low importance.
Not sure that’s a fair deduction: the creeds don’t mention anything of the teaching of Jesus — that isn’t the remit of the creeds.
Or none of the above? Faithfulness to the Holy Spirit, and actions arising therefrom, according to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles? I never thought Christianity was meant to be prescriptive. There is no salvation in the law, I seem to remember Romans saying. There is no salvation in the creeds, doctrines and canons of the CoE, nor the edicts of the bishops or synod. He got mocked for it, but he was right. Even faith in the resurrection is more than faith in a game of bones. You can recite truthfully all the words of the creeds, yet… Read more »
These persons do not “claim” to be married, and to speak of them in such terms is distinctly unChristian. They ARE married in their own eyes, in the eyes of their friends and families, and in the eyes of the state. It is the Church that is being unfaithful, IMO.
‘Everyone did what was right in their own eyes’ is certainly unchristian.
They are legally married, and the fact that some disagree with them doesn’t change their legal status.
There lies the rub, We don’t live according to the law, but in fulfilment of it. In the case of marriage, in fulfilment of the love Christ has for his Church. It’s a mystery that can’t. legislated for.
We do live according to civil law – ‘render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s’. We also live under God’s law. If you disagree with same sex marriage you might, according to your convictions, say that in your view such couples are not married in the eyes of the Church. But if you say they aren’t married you are making a simple error of fact – besides being very discourteous.
who has the effrontery, in the face of this “mystery” to decide which bits of “his church” Christ shouldn’t love?
Are you saying that every Christian must agree, without exception, on the same interpretations of Scripture? Well, so much for ecumenism then.
Michael Hampson talks about several things, but one of them is “Sunday Scriptures for Reading Aloud”. Does anyone know any more about this? I could find no information on the linked website ssra.uk indicating who is responsible for the translation, for example, and what their credentials are. The passage quoted in the article looks rather like a paraphrase, and carrying slightly different nuances than the the other two versions quoted.
SSRA is Michael’s project, and there is an element of simplification/paraphrase. It has been discussed/recommended in several places, from the website of Blackburn diocese (https://www.blackburn.anglican.org/new-website-resource) to the Church Times (https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2022/21-october/comment/columnists/angela-tilby-scripture-is-to-be-read-and-heard)
I agree, surely translating the Bible needs the authority and validation of the Church. Likewise with the liturgy, there needs to be some collective endorsement certainly for an ASB 2030.
Regarding people in same-sex marriages being Readers / LLMs – there are no national rules on this (unlike for clergy) and it is up to the diocesan bishop to decide if such persons may be admitted and licenced. I have taught two excellent LLM candidates who were in same sex marriages.
So here’s the question – the usual one in the C of E with its uneasy balance between diocese (because the local matters) and the national (because so does coherence) – is it OK to have a ‘church’ in which you can train and be licensed as an LLM so long as you and your family are able to move house?
It is de facto a postcode lottery. One om students moved diocese and was not readmitted to training in his new diocese. You may recall it made the papers!
In 1984 I was recommended for ordination training, but only on the undertaking that I wouldn’t return to Chichester Diocese. The C of E has form in this regard.
Change address or change bishops. I applied to be an LLM and was refused. And then a few years later a new bishop was appointed and I was accepted.
Michael Hampson’s blog for ViaMedia News, We used to Have Liturgy: Now we Have Bureaucracy is outstanding – visionary, practical and truthful. Were I not also retired and without a licence or PTO I would be signing up for Michael’s ASB 2030, looking forward to having a copy and using it, much as I did when ASB was published. Andrew Goddard’s blog for Psephizo, Canterbury Tales: what happens next? is, as always, rigorously researched and detailed, and like the Canterbury Crown Nominations process, is completely up its own arse – how can it not be? It represents perfectly the grossly… Read more »
I’ve googled ‘LGCM’ and all I can get is ‘Latent Growth Curve Modelling.’
I don’t think that’s what you mean, is it, Colin?
Mmmm, time passes and acronyms get forgotten – LGCM – the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement – which with Changing Attitude morphed into OBOF – OneBodyOneFaith.
Or in the case of Canadians like me, perhaps not forgotten but not well known, as in our country we had other organisations filling similar space.
Haven’t heard from you in ages, Tim. Good to have you back.
Yeah, I’ve been quiet on here for a while. I’ve known for a while that the argumentative side of my nature isn’t doing me any favours. Also, this is overwhelmingly a C of E site (despite its more inclusive name), focussing on C of E issues, and that’s working fine for most of the participants.
The input from outside England can be valuable. I bought the First Nations NT you recommended, and now a number of my friends have it too. It’s a refreshing take on the text.
I’m so glad you like it, Janet. I believe the Psalms and Proverbs translation is coming out shortly.
Wonderful, I’ll order a copy.
I’ve pre-ordered, it’s due out in August.
Janet, here’s a sampler: https://ivpress.com/Media/Default/Press-Kits/A0727-press.pdf?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR4YncjBCcCNqaNqklhcedtcSR7UTpKzmf1OaSWfzGm96BH77F0kJLa6cZYZog_aem_fPCBn5u5KAqfuYr24gF4BQ
I’m afraid that I think that , while Michael makes some very apposite points, much of what he says is inaccurate or tendentious.
Agreed. The Church is the people, not the liturgy.
Indeed. Yet it is the liturgy that forms the people – if it is allowed to in an impatient world.
The Bible, the Holy Spirit, other people of faith, and the liturgy all form the people. The liturgy derives from the Bible – or should – so I would put that first.
Lex orandi….Lex credendi?
I am reading this blog in a Romanian hotel room on the day of the Romanian election, having spent the last ten days travelling also through Poland and Hungary. Such travelling and sightseeing concentrates one’s awareness of right wing populism in the present, and the history of various churches getting involved in right wing political causes in the past. So when I see Marcus Walker and others celebrating the increasing numbers of young people, and especially young men, across Europe and America getting involved with Christianity I can’t help but but wonder about that, and want to be cautious, and… Read more »
My thoughts exactly. Populism is not necessarily a measure of success…
And Islamophobic behaviour.
I think we’d all want to see more growth amongst women as well.
Whatever their reasons for coming, I think we should see it as an opportunity for discipleship.
I hope the attraction is that churches are offering a positive Christian way of being a man and a positive view of Christian masculinity rather than coming because they simply want to stay as they are.
For the record I don’t think any churches in the UK are actively encouraging right wing populism from the pulpit and would balk and probably walk if they did.
Thanks for the response Gareth, I agree with a lot of what you say. I welcome young people coming into the church who want to follow Gospel values, but also sound a note of warning that in some parts of the word it is reported that the growth of young men coming into the church can be problematic if they are joining with a certain agenda. You are right that this is less reported in the UK. The interesting question is what is a “positive view of Christian masculinity”. For myself I would regard it as a man who is… Read more »
My fear is the Law of Unintended Consequences…. Remember Soul Survivor? Who would challenge things if numbers of young people suddenly started to rise??
Similarly there is one Diocesan Bishop with the gift of the gab and dubious views about the vocation of women who seems to me to have taken more than a few ideas from the Farage play book ….
While this may well be happening in some churches, I find the growth stats just too good to be true. Certainly nothing like it reported anywhere around here.
Is there any real evidence of growth among young people? The Bible society survey is totally out of line with all the other data. I would like to see some hard numbers from specific churches or denominations.
Another, very helpful take is this brand new book by Lamorna Ash. I heard her interviewed by Elizabeth Oldfield on ‘The Sacred’ podcast, and I found it deeply moving.
I have been reading TA a for years, but from the distance of Canada. Everywhere I look online, there is someone willing to tell us what is wrong with the Church of England. Too liberal, too conservative, too demanding, too wishy-washy, etc. The CofE seems to have endless critics and detractors and experts on what is wrong. And that’s all. No useful solutions. It may be a British trait, but this is not positive or encouraging, even for those who like Anglicanism and try to keep faithful. The CofE seems to be a focus for curmudgeons and cranks of every… Read more »
My doubts about discernment started when a friend was rejected for ordination. From my perspective Megan would have made an outstanding priest. She had a very strong vocation, has a strong background in academic theology and most importantly from my point of view overflowing with Christian love and empathy. Discernment is necessary and I of course do not argue that just because you believe God is calling you to be a priest the Church should agree. There may have been very good reasons why Megan was rejected. But there were a couple of things that I found deeply worrying. Firstly… Read more »
Regarding the election of the previous Vacancy in See Committee, it is true that there were technical errors in issuing the ballot papers with names that should not have appeared there. I expect it would have little material effect on the outcome as the vote was by STV, so anyone voting for an excluded candidate as their first preference would have their vote transferred to a second preference candidate. But if it contravened the Vacancy in See Regulations then the diocese could claim grounds to re-run it, even though there are no means for appeal against the outcome of a… Read more »
Michael Hampson seems to have the usual Anglophone confusion between grammatical gender and biological sex. It is not correct tos say that ‘pneuma’ has no gender. It is of the neuter gender which is one of the three genders in classical greek. These genders are most likely a remnant of a much wider classificatory system as is found in Swahili and dont always line up with biological sex. For example ‘korasion’ (little girl) in the gospels is neuter, not feminine. It might be of interest to note that Turkish, Farsi and Malay have no gender differentiation at all, while Urdu… Read more »
Marcus Walker:
Let me be old-fashioned about this: maybe because of SIN?
Because it’s FINALLY time to stop sinning?
Racism, sexism, homo-/transphobia, classism, rapacious capitalism: IF the Church is truly following Jesus’s Gospel—and if you’re not following Jesus, your worship is worthless—these are the sins they will be condemning. If that’s not popular . . . sigh, well, there’s nothing new under the sun.
I don’t think that fits anywhere into what Marcus was saying. Rather the opposite.