Mark Clavier Well-Tempered Churches and the Burden of Bureaucracy
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love The Diocese of Southwark – an archetypal story of flourishing and decline
Tim Wyatt‘s weekly blog The Critical Friend looks at Christian Nationalism and some bishops.
Malcolm Johnson Guarding the Flock Mandatory Reporting and the Confessional
As one who grew in ministry in the years Colin describes, and indeed trained in the same place, I am grateful for his personal reflections.
For me the Church of England above parish level seems a more intrusive and much less generous and open space than it was.
Yes, emphasis is often put on inclusion, or even ‘radical inclusion’ but committed pastoral care, tolerance of difference and acceptance of a broad range of outlooks seems in significant decline. Mercifully I often find such qualities in everyday parishes, but not so much in church life above parish level.
I agree. Our strength is in our parishes. Previously I have been involved at Diocesan Synod level as Lay Chair for 16 years. Now (maybe because I’m now over 80),I don’t miss it. I just turn up each week, sometimes serve and occasionally preach.
I just wonder where the next generation is in this sort of commitment. I only missed Sundays if I were on holiday – not because cousin Gladys was coming to lunch!
Don’t despair. Each week I see people of all ages serving during the morning services in crèche, teaching children in their groups, serving coffee, leading worship, welcoming at the door etc etc, and attending the evening service. They, in the words of 2 Corinthians 8, have given themselves first to the Lord, and then to serving the church.
Out of curiosity – why do you think your experience differs from Dr John Wallace?
I also see similar in the evangelical churches I’ve attended inside and outside of the Church of England in recent years.
A majority of those at my current church are under 50. It wouldn’t run without a substantial portion of those in this demographic serving.
The church is multi-generational, with long standing members, but also about 60 20-30’s, plus students, many young families. The key factor though I believe is that most of the 600 on the electoral roll are fully committed members of the church. It’s evangelical committed to discipleship and mission.
What sort of community are your respective parishes located in, Bob and Gareth? Local demographic has a huge influence. If there are students, there must be a college or university near; rural or depressed areas without jobs for young people are unlikely to get 60 20-30s in attendance. Rural villages must cater for all kinds of churchmanship, though of course clergy and lay leaders might lean towards one brand or another.
In my case a smallish town about an hour’s drive away from the nearest city.
We’ve very nearly outgrown the space we rent also.
Plenty of evangelical churches are finding themselves with similar good problems at the moment.
I only asked Bob this as I’ve never heard of a situation like Dr John Wallace describes.
It’s not uncommon in deprived inner cities, large urban estates, and small villages. That’s why I asked about your demographic. I live in a coastal town with few job opportunities for young people, and surrounded by sparsely populated countryside. Many village churches have small congregations of mostly elderly people. I used to be vicar of a crime-ridden estate parish, and the congregation were very good at mucking in. But much of the population were transient, and people from more well to do areas were reluctant to leave their cars in our car park to get vandalised. Having bricks thrown at… Read more »
Heroic stuff
My situation is a suburban parish on the edge of a city with two universities. We are located quite a way from the main student accommodation and there are at least two other parish churches closer to the accommodation. Most of our 20’s and 30’s live outside the parish. As a church we have groups and support for all ages and stages from new mums to over 60’s. Most church members are committed to giving which includes their time, gifts and financial resources. We have out grown our buildings over time and have had enlarge them in order to facilitate… Read more »
That sounds very healthy
Urban deprived area charismatic evangelical church serving young families rapidly running out of space, help!
Blessings Adrian. In one sense that’s a good problem to have. I pray that the Lord provides the space to grow.
Funnily enough that prayer for help already seems to be answered. Old images on the net actually show my dad, now deceased, looking at the now vacant church organ, he was a keen organist but I prefer the cheap guitars and drum kits.
It can’t be cheap buying guitars, drum kits, T-shirts and new jeans.
It’s usually the comprehensive range of missional staff that the money’s needed for in such churches.
And that is a major factor in why churches in less prosperous areas often struggle – unless they’re resourced by big wealthy churches like HTB or Emmanuel Wimbledon. It isn’t a level playing field. I see websites of middle class churches with 10 or 15 staff including several curates – but my (evangelical) vicar is leading 5 rural parishes with no curate or youth worker, and had to raise the funding for her to stay another 3 years.
The majority of financial resources for HTB start ups come from C of E central funds which are open for anyone to apply for. We are in a poor area and now are self supporting and have started contributing to the Parish Share which support other parishes, which actually are in more wealthy areas. Even now there is a constant round of applying for grants to support social outreach projects for example and regular appeals for members of the congregation to give more, and sacrificially. So the pattern of investing in revitalised urban churches to support rural parishes is already… Read more »
To those that have shall be given……
Pipe organs are more expensive. And every church I’ve ever played for has assumed I’ll bring my own guitar. Unlike organs and pianos. By the way, I also wear my own jeans to church. Do you wear your own suits?
No. I wear the vestments provided.
Fortunate. I rarely got to work in a church where robes were provided. I usually had to supply my own.
Not forget to add servicing the original pipe organ, providing meals for those in need, paying for community breakfasts, paying for a children’s and families worker, a youth worker for those of secondary school age, paying to build a church hall, offices, as well as for putting toilets in the church building etc etc. We do buy t-shirts too, for all those who work amongst our children and youth. But no jeans. I will suggest that to the PCC.
Seriously, can you get some medicine to help with despair addiction! Rejoice I say rejoice! There must be better things to do than spot the happy clappy mote and not your own beam. God bless.
How much are fiddleback chasubles these days?
Fr David H may be concerned that the diocesan missioner is going to equip him with a new pair of jeans, a T-shirt and Mark Knopfler’s guide to guitar chords. Happily, though, the CofE needs priests with diverse strengths and representing different traditions to minister to the population.
Mark Knopfler uses chords? I thought he just noodled around through the whole song!
I think the chord shapes are hiding behind the noodling
This is where Fr Dave is heading …
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/learn-four-guitar-chords-mark-120022725.html
If he can manage the chords to Wonderwall and buy a capo he’ll be OK!
Agree with your final sentence – Let’s all do what we do well, care and pray for folk and not be constantly sniping at each other
Too much, from what I can see!!! There’s a certain resale group for clergy on Facebook where one priest who resells vestments galore must be raking in thousands from the prices listed…
Makes me glad my taste in vestments only extends to an alb and stole!
About £400-£500, from a quick search on google. I would not like to guess dry cleaning or repair costs.
Father David H is not at all happy clappy.
[I think he is really, but likes to tease us and project an alternative persona.]
Of course one usually inherits them.
Fiddleback chasubles are SO yesterday.
Far from it. They are truly mission-shaped.
Uber Gothic is the thing now. 10 foot stoles and 4 foot maniples.
Given the way fashion cycles they are probably yetro at the mo!
I thought with the return to ad orientem masses among the traditional Catholics the fiddleback was making a comeback! Along with lace albs and birettas!
That was in the early noughties. We’ve moved on since then.
I have lots of disagreements with conservative evangelicals but this sort of petty sniping is uncalled for. Besides, I’m pretty sure new kit in a modern building pales in comparison to the maintenance that sucks all the time and energy of too many parish churches with buildings far too large for their congregations.
I’m still like that now, but then I can empathise with “I was glad when they said unto me….”
Christian Patriotism and Christian Nationalism are used to describe a broad range of different views as Wyatt explores in the blog above and so should be used carefully indeed, if at all. Much like the word ‘woke’ they can be used lazily to describe the things we personally find distasteful. This should not stop us being extremely concerned about the growing popularity of some very alarming, well funded and divisive views about faith, race, immigration and culture. I do note however that the two terms Christian Patriotism and Christian Nationalism rather conveniently abbreviate to ‘Pat-c’ and ‘Nat-c’…
Re Wyatt’s article, I never did like PCA (Principle Component Analysis), almost as much as I don’t like the term ‘actionable insights’.
I agree very much that we need to be extremely cautious about the ways data was gathered.
However, the analysis does leave me feeling ‘so what – what should be done?’.
Not a complaint about Wyatt’s summary, just a general comment.
The Theos report summarised by Tim Wyatt has a formal similar to opinion polls and is based on comparable numbers, about 1700 people interviewed in Britain. That’s great if you’re exploring questions like ‘Does 30% of the population support such-and-such?’ But issues about Christian nationalism are likely to be expressed by much smaller percentages, because the number of regular Anglican churchgoers is now about 1% of the population. Those Anglican attendees might be very worried if a similar 1% of people began to claim Christianity represented something the Anglicans feel it doesn’t. But that might be of no concern to… Read more »
“If 5% of the population attended Anglican churches…” to its credit that is at least a manageable goal.
What I find striking is the avoidance of the topic altogether. Does this mean the amortization moves along apace? One day (soon) it is .4% and what then?
Why isn’t this issue front and center?
It’s currently not possible to put a figure on attendance reductions, because church-going continues to rise slightly post-covid. The presumption is that at some point it will return to the pre-covid 2.5% fall per year. That figure means crisis is never imminent – over 10 years you are only down to 77% of what you began with. But compounded over time, it’s disastrous: church-going now stands at ~60, 35% and 20% of the levels in 2000, 1980 and 1960, when the decline seemingly began. I’d guess that in the 1960’s-80’s it was assumed the decline would run out of steam.… Read more »
This may help.
https://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/cmsfiles/RED-C–Theos-Methodology–Panel-Integrity-Explainer.pdf
But it still doesn;t describe how the 1700 were chosen, nor the proportion of those chosen who responded.
We have all been approached by people doing street surveys – they have their quotas to approach – but do they ever capture the demographics of ‘too busy to stop and answer silly questions’?
What does ’15 minutes with a blended panel sample’ mean? 15 minutes of what?
Thank you. “I’d guess he’d had enough anyhow and couldn’t see a way of improving things.” I’m sure that’s right. FWIW, I worked with Rowan Williams on the wider Communion front and other matters. I think the same thing could be said about him. Unlike Welby it was an easier off-ramp and he had a life he wanted to pursue of speaking and writing. Once one ABC steps down, I suspect that option hovers in the air more distinctly. I think my question is more why senior leadership (Bishops) don’t make decline the top line concern. TEC is now down… Read more »
Right. It’s just a presumption. It may be not far wrong, though: the rate of increase is slowing each year, and total numbers are slowly approaching a level down on 2020 by about 2.5% per year since. Of course, the numbers might never actually start going down again. On the other hand, I think the 2.5% annual relative rate of decline was slowly accelerating before covid. Why are no bishops focussing on the decline? Four reasons come to mind – 1. None of them are confident they know, or can find, an approach that will work. 2. Anyone who tries… Read more »
Thank you for this full response.
“The church commissioners are building up a massive fund, which will allow a skeleton church to continue almost infinitely far into the future, until something changes and a revival happens.”
If this is what they are thinking, it is pretty reckless.
Could they also assume that if the decline is unstoppable, the funds can be released to help the disestablished life rafts?
Yes, although some money is being spent on church planting, most seems to be re-invested in growing the fund. Given that when it’s gone it’s gone, I suppose it’s responsible to try things and only spend big once they’ve discovered something that works. But there’s a fine balance to strike. If there are no Anglicans left, they can have all the money in the world to hire vicars, but no people to hire
12% of C of E churches are growing so not all is lost and there are good models of growth around for bishops who chose to look and I think the Church Commissioners know what to invest in and which models provide good value for money, but these initiatives are often blocked at a parish level hence I think the need for more BMO’s in the short term. However the Alliance strategy seems to be to retain vacant churches as a platform for mission and revival in the future, each with a ‘focal’ vicar. Presumably this means installing a vicar… Read more »
Thank you for this encouraging news, Adrian. Are there any indications of what is growing? Is it a type of church, a type of vicar/pastor or a type of location?
I ask because in my younger days, I expected evangelical Anglican churches to grow while congregations in other Anglican churches fell. That hasn’t really happened because evangelical numbers overall have only slightly increased. And I have begun to wonder whether growth isn’t as much related to ministers’ (and congregations’) gifting and motivation as to their churchmanship – though these could be related.
Interesting piece which relates to this in the CT:
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2026/23-october/news/uk/c-of-e-heading-for-financial-disaster-warn-two-academics
A significant piece of work from the Uni of Kent’s Centre for Anglican History and Theology of which I am a member. It delves into the post Reformation history as well as contemporary analysis. I saw it in draft and am glad it is now published. I hope it’s contents are taken seriously. Currently away but I imagine it is now available on the Universities website.
Indeed. When David Owen wound up the SDP in 1990, it was believed to be the political party with the healthiest bank balance. But those funds did it no good as it simply did not have the membership to be able to function. Is that where the C of E is headed? And if it is, what then happens to the Commissioners’ funds?
It becomes a clerical tontine (at least a de facto tontine).
And/or the funds are reallocated on a cy-près basis.
In any case the ‘winners’ are those who are still around at the ‘death’.
A decade ago the late Andreas Whittam Smith asked – towards the end of his time as first commissioner – what the point was of accumulating a large fund for the purpose of serving a Church which risks ceasing to exist.
Perhaps the funds could be spent on maintaining the more historic/ interesting churches as tourist attractions, concert venues and coffee shop.
Headline in national newspaper in lreland a couple of weeks ago: ‘Hierarchy face crisis as less than 34% of rural population attend Mass.’ That would, presumably, constitute a revival in England?
Thank you for bringing up the issue of small samples, which is very pertinent. i was focussing on the issue of how data was gathered. I can;t say i read all the reports in detail, but I did not come across any explanation of data gathering. Was it, for example, online volunteer, where the respondents choose themselves? If so, results are likely to be garbage. Or was it a carefully designed survey, with a small number of non respondents? See for example: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2401.07625 where Kim does not seem to even consider online volunteer sampling. I don’t know what other information… Read more »
Yes, my reaction skim-reading the report was similar to yours – so what? Then it dawned on me that it had importantly discovered nothing mad was going on – in a nation where there are probably less than two million regular church-goers, there aren’t a huge number of people who think it’s really important for the nation’s values to reflect those of the church. To find out anything more would require recruiting about 1000 people from each of the communities involved: church-goers and those whose views might be characterized as christian nationalist – at present, they’ve probably only got about… Read more »
Nothing Laz-c about that!
T. S. Eliot, no less, argued that the ultimate destination of unchecked modern liberalism in the church is a form of totalitarianism, which inevitably steps in as a desperate, heavy-handed bureaucracy to fix the chaos that liberalism itself created.
Depending on your take on contemporary bureaucratic inflation within church life, Mark Clavier is either just the kind of priest we need, or the kind we should avoid like the plague, in archidiaconal ministry.
Reading this I can’t help wondering what Dean Swift ( Dean Jonathan ??? )
would have made of these posts …. And who are the Big-Endians and who the Little-Endians – all outside computing of course