And I presume that the C of E still doesn’t have a Confict of Interest policy, or know which, if any, members of Ineque and their teams are also Nobody’s Friends and / or members of Masonic Lodges ?
Thank- you Martin . You will be missed but I’m afraid the ‘ Macavities’ will be having a celebration next time they meet up at Nobody’s Friends …..
Geoffrey Fisher, Archbishop of Canterbury from 1945 to 1961, was also Grand Chaplain in the United Grand Lodge of England. Many bishops were thought to be masons then. In recent times, Jonathan Baker was Deputy Grand Chaplain in the United Grand Lodge of England until he became Bishop of Fulham. Not exactly low church.
I’ve never been clear on what is the ecclesiastical objection to the Masons among Anglicans or, for that matter, Roman Catholics. (In the USA, the RC church created the “Knights of Columbus” specifically to give RC men an acceptible alternative.)
Speaking as an American, I think it would be necessary to understand the difference between Masonry in the UK and in the USA. Very different cultural/class realities. Anecdotally, I once met the Grand Whatever of the Masons at an event on LI. I asked him what happened to the (now almost vanished) phenomenon in the US. With all seriousness, he replied, the invention of the television. No reason, then, to get out of the house after doing the dishes, to go to the Lodge. In my experience, Masonry has a very distinctive cultural footprint in the UK. More like a… Read more »
Traditionally the Masons were associated with the aspirant middle class in the UK. Church wise, typically in that once robust Low Church tradition of Matins, preaching scarf and the British Legion. I’m not sure what their demographic and their ‘reach’ is today (if any), hence my earlier question. I sometimes wondered if Freemasonry was in part a compensation for the paucity of ritual in such churches. The parish church I served in 30 years ago was associated with two Lodges. For the most part their influence was benign and the parish did benefit from their generosity. However, this came on… Read more »
You are putting your finger on why Masonry is different than all these other groups. These are highly public, non-secretive, gatherings of people committed to benevolence of various kinds. Just look at a basic wiki introduction to Masonry. Originally, historically, masonic guilds guarded their craft skills carefully. They lived together during construction projects. When masonry ‘freed itself’ from this historical rootage (hence Freemasonry), the geometric and physical craft secrets were philosophized and made into a system of advancement by degrees. Secrecy remained the consistent theme. Vows. This is a crude summary. People sometimes speak of rosicrucian influences. Moose, Elks, Shriners,… Read more »
Freemasonry is hardly a ‘secret society’ any more. All the ritual is in the public domain. If people want to know what happens in meetings, a simple google search is all that’s required. They’re really no different from any private members’ club– far less exclusive, in fact.
Thank you. That is a Freemasonary in the UK I have no experience of. BTW, are you a mason? And how do your respond to the comments from Martin and responses from others here?
Quote. “The parish church I served in 30 years ago was associated with two Lodges. For the most part their influence was benign and the parish did benefit from their generosity. However, this came on one occasion with strings attached and I recall the Rector saying, “If I give into this, I’m done for.””
The simplest response is ‘experiences vary.’ Several generations of my family were Masons in the United States and it was a very different kind of organisation to what I’ve seen here in the UK in various parishes.
Masonic influence could be benign, yet there was a darker side too. And although they appear more open than previously, their influence has not gone entirely away. Two years ago I sat on an interview panel for a parish priest in which an applicant pressed us on ‘Masonic influences’. When I asked him later why this was, he said: “I had a bad experience of them in my current parish.”
Lots to think about in your words, Martin, thank you once again. Gus’s experience highlights that even without organisations like the Freemasons, the CofE has always been quite capable of nurturing and sustaining its own secretive, self referential and excluding societies, movements, sects and cliques.
I’m delighted to hear that you have seen the light and will now be focusing on mastering the art of Manouche, and finally swapping the Macavities for a Maccaferri.
Pam Wilkinson
23 days ago
Reading Augustine Tanner Ihm’s piece I am struck by the feeling of betrayal expressed in “solidarity is not guaranteed, even among those who share racial identity”. What misunderstanding of history could have given rise to the expectation that it would be?
I very well remember, in Kenya whilst teaching at a school predominantly Kikuyu, that other Bantu tribes from Embu or Meru were all considered thieves and liars.
I don’t think west Africans and West Indians get on particularly well. Same with American West Indian immigrants and other African Americans.
Eh? No need to look beyond Africa for evidence. For example the Gukurahundi genocide in Zimbabwe in the 80s. And we can all cite examples of a total lack of “solidarity” amongst white people. The call for evidence is a bit odd.
Familial chatter around the dinner table at Christmas. Not scientific, I know. I (white) am married into a Jamaican family. They are very proud of the Jamaicans who have made it in US society (e.g. Colin Powell). There are deep seated resentments, each way, between Jamaicans and West Africans. It would be interesting, in London, to see how many West Indians attend West African churches – I have no idea. Jamaicans are proud of their battles for emancipation, and wonder why African Americans took so long (and are still taking so long). one reason given is that Jamaicans came from… Read more »
People often ask why those of us who retain the historic Christian understanding in regard to sexuality are not simply content with the present LLF proposals being entirely optional. However Augustine Tanner Ihm’s comments about those holding such views perhaps gives part of the answer. I appreciate that he is in a particularly difficult place at the moment as he struggles to find a post-curacy role. But ‘This betrayal is reminiscent of Judas, who shared bread with Jesus but still handed him over’ encourages me not to give up on the attempt to secure robust provision. I will have retired… Read more »
David Hawkins
23 days ago
Archbishop Cherry Vann has taught me the profound importance of small things: kindness, welcome, solidarity, friendship, mutual respect. Last Sunday at St Woolas Cathedral Newport we witnessed a profoundly important small thing. Cherry Vann emerged from the congregation to accept a hand made card from the congregation and to give the final blessing. I am told that she often attends Sunday Eucharist as an ordinary member of the congregation. What this means is that “I am maybe an Archbishop but I am also a child of God just like you”.For an Anglican communion sometimes throttled by a top down bureaucracy… Read more »
Christianity isn’t about being nice you know. It is all about believing in a collection of abstruse doctrines. I believe that that is what Our Lord was trying to emphasise in the parable of the sheep and goats.
Well I agree ‘nice’ is a poor word to describe Christianity. But I don’t find the sheep and goats abstruse. Quite the contrary. That the church, rather than its founder, deploys the abstruse for its own ends I think can be argued. But the founder’s message is pretty clear.
Not at all, but I think Kemi Badenoch would sign up to these things. She confesses that she has lost faith in God, but believes in cultural Christianity and I wondered what she meant by that.
I suspect the question is about who Kemi Badenoch is. The answer is that she is a Conservative member of the House of Commons, and currently she is the Leader of the Opposition.
Yes, I realized that. Anyone in this country would have known the answer — and for anyone who doesn’t know the basics of British politics, well, DuckDuckGo or some other internet search engine will give you the answer in half a second, just four keystrokes. (I appreciate my answer was less than helpful, but even so.)
The question of who actually ‘runs’ the CofE is indeed interesting. Is it the Bishops? Is it Synod? Is it the PCCs? I know where I’m placing my vote, and it isn’t with the first two.
As for transparency and inclusivity, like ‘progress’ I’m not at all convinced they’re unqualified moral goods. They’re nice enough words, I grant you.
I think of the Church of England being like a formerly very grand stately home whose foundations are rotting away. A disestablished church could continue to be run as a Top Down organisation but it is hard to imagine an established church that is Bottom Up. It is no accident that the General Secretary is a former royal courtier and spy. We know the King doesn’t actually appoint bishops but his formal approval is significant. Of course there are many parishes where the witness of ordinary people is valued but the function of an established church is to prop up… Read more »
That depends entirely on what one means by ‘meaningful reform.’ I’m not uncomfortable with hierarchy, the trappings of power, or semi-erastianism, so what others think are essential reforms might not be to my taste.
Indeed. I occasionally remind my PCC that we are trustees of the parish and have no legal responsibility to any other body.
Malcolm Dixon
22 days ago
Thank you, Martin, for your devoted service on Synod as a representative of the people of Rochester diocese, and for all the good work you have done. It is disgraceful that so much of the reform you have sought to bring about has been blocked by the cabal of loyal courtiers at the top, who see as their main or only purpose the defence of ‘the firm’ from all attacks and the maintenance of its reputation. By the latter criterion they could scarcely have done worse, as that reputation now could hardly be lower. We will just have to hope… Read more »
Jonathan Jamal
22 days ago
On the subject of Freemasonry I remember during my 12 years as a Monk at Roslin near Edinburgh in May 1989 sitting in the Public Gallery at a Session of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland when a Report on Freemasonry brought forward by a Presbytery in Central Scotland was debated on the floor of the General Assembly. The then Convenor of what was then known as the Panel of Worship and Doctrine, the Revd Dr Douglas Murray in introducing the Report to the Assembly said that “The problem was not that Freemasons do not have a Theology,… Read more »
Thanks, anecdotally, this was the kind of conflict over Freemasonry I recall.In Scotland and also in England. Oath-taking, secrecy, fraternal preferment. And the incompatibility of this with Christianity.
And I presume that the C of E still doesn’t have a Confict of Interest policy, or know which, if any, members of Ineque and their teams are also Nobody’s Friends and / or members of Masonic Lodges ?
Thank- you Martin . You will be missed but I’m afraid the ‘ Macavities’ will be having a celebration next time they meet up at Nobody’s Friends …..
Freemasonry used to be particularly associated with parish churches in the Low Church ‘civic’ tradition. Has it declined in line with that tradition?
Geoffrey Fisher, Archbishop of Canterbury from 1945 to 1961, was also Grand Chaplain in the United Grand Lodge of England. Many bishops were thought to be masons then. In recent times, Jonathan Baker was Deputy Grand Chaplain in the United Grand Lodge of England until he became Bishop of Fulham. Not exactly low church.
The Bishop of Fulham is not very Low Church is he?
Does he attend Lodge barefoot and in dressing gown?
So mote it be
Do Freemasons keep pyjamas in their Masonic briefcases?!
I’ve never been clear on what is the ecclesiastical objection to the Masons among Anglicans or, for that matter, Roman Catholics. (In the USA, the RC church created the “Knights of Columbus” specifically to give RC men an acceptible alternative.)
Speaking as an American, I think it would be necessary to understand the difference between Masonry in the UK and in the USA. Very different cultural/class realities. Anecdotally, I once met the Grand Whatever of the Masons at an event on LI. I asked him what happened to the (now almost vanished) phenomenon in the US. With all seriousness, he replied, the invention of the television. No reason, then, to get out of the house after doing the dishes, to go to the Lodge. In my experience, Masonry has a very distinctive cultural footprint in the UK. More like a… Read more »
Traditionally the Masons were associated with the aspirant middle class in the UK. Church wise, typically in that once robust Low Church tradition of Matins, preaching scarf and the British Legion. I’m not sure what their demographic and their ‘reach’ is today (if any), hence my earlier question. I sometimes wondered if Freemasonry was in part a compensation for the paucity of ritual in such churches. The parish church I served in 30 years ago was associated with two Lodges. For the most part their influence was benign and the parish did benefit from their generosity. However, this came on… Read more »
It appeals very largely to members of the Sikh religion in the West Midlands these days.
Sorry, what is LI?
Long Island?
PS–Knights of Columbus.
“The organization was founded on March 29, 1882, as a mutual benefit society for working-class and immigrant Catholics in the United States.”
Catholics are not the only Christian group to forbid its members becoming Masons.
Why, then, no similar prohibition–at least in the USA–to the Rotary, the Elks, the Shriners, the Lions, etc.?
You are putting your finger on why Masonry is different than all these other groups. These are highly public, non-secretive, gatherings of people committed to benevolence of various kinds. Just look at a basic wiki introduction to Masonry. Originally, historically, masonic guilds guarded their craft skills carefully. They lived together during construction projects. When masonry ‘freed itself’ from this historical rootage (hence Freemasonry), the geometric and physical craft secrets were philosophized and made into a system of advancement by degrees. Secrecy remained the consistent theme. Vows. This is a crude summary. People sometimes speak of rosicrucian influences. Moose, Elks, Shriners,… Read more »
Freemasonry is hardly a ‘secret society’ any more. All the ritual is in the public domain. If people want to know what happens in meetings, a simple google search is all that’s required. They’re really no different from any private members’ club– far less exclusive, in fact.
Thank you. That is a Freemasonary in the UK I have no experience of. BTW, are you a mason? And how do your respond to the comments from Martin and responses from others here?
Quote. “The parish church I served in 30 years ago was associated with two Lodges. For the most part their influence was benign and the parish did benefit from their generosity. However, this came on one occasion with strings attached and I recall the Rector saying, “If I give into this, I’m done for.””
Thanks.
The simplest response is ‘experiences vary.’ Several generations of my family were Masons in the United States and it was a very different kind of organisation to what I’ve seen here in the UK in various parishes.
Masonic influence could be benign, yet there was a darker side too. And although they appear more open than previously, their influence has not gone entirely away. Two years ago I sat on an interview panel for a parish priest in which an applicant pressed us on ‘Masonic influences’. When I asked him later why this was, he said: “I had a bad experience of them in my current parish.”
I agree and have said that.
Lots to think about in your words, Martin, thank you once again. Gus’s experience highlights that even without organisations like the Freemasons, the CofE has always been quite capable of nurturing and sustaining its own secretive, self referential and excluding societies, movements, sects and cliques.
I’m delighted to hear that you have seen the light and will now be focusing on mastering the art of Manouche, and finally swapping the Macavities for a Maccaferri.
Reading Augustine Tanner Ihm’s piece I am struck by the feeling of betrayal expressed in “solidarity is not guaranteed, even among those who share racial identity”.
What misunderstanding of history could have given rise to the expectation that it would be?
I very well remember, in Kenya whilst teaching at a school predominantly Kikuyu, that other Bantu tribes from Embu or Meru were all considered thieves and liars.
I don’t think west Africans and West Indians get on particularly well. Same with American West Indian immigrants and other African Americans.
You use stereotypes. Evidence, please. ‘I don’t think’ is not sufficient.
Eh? No need to look beyond Africa for evidence. For example the Gukurahundi genocide in Zimbabwe in the 80s. And we can all cite examples of a total lack of “solidarity” amongst white people. The call for evidence is a bit odd.
Familial chatter around the dinner table at Christmas. Not scientific, I know. I (white) am married into a Jamaican family. They are very proud of the Jamaicans who have made it in US society (e.g. Colin Powell). There are deep seated resentments, each way, between Jamaicans and West Africans. It would be interesting, in London, to see how many West Indians attend West African churches – I have no idea. Jamaicans are proud of their battles for emancipation, and wonder why African Americans took so long (and are still taking so long). one reason given is that Jamaicans came from… Read more »
People often ask why those of us who retain the historic Christian understanding in regard to sexuality are not simply content with the present LLF proposals being entirely optional. However Augustine Tanner Ihm’s comments about those holding such views perhaps gives part of the answer. I appreciate that he is in a particularly difficult place at the moment as he struggles to find a post-curacy role. But ‘This betrayal is reminiscent of Judas, who shared bread with Jesus but still handed him over’ encourages me not to give up on the attempt to secure robust provision. I will have retired… Read more »
Archbishop Cherry Vann has taught me the profound importance of small things: kindness, welcome, solidarity, friendship, mutual respect. Last Sunday at St Woolas Cathedral Newport we witnessed a profoundly important small thing. Cherry Vann emerged from the congregation to accept a hand made card from the congregation and to give the final blessing. I am told that she often attends Sunday Eucharist as an ordinary member of the congregation. What this means is that “I am maybe an Archbishop but I am also a child of God just like you”.For an Anglican communion sometimes throttled by a top down bureaucracy… Read more »
Cultural Christianity?
Implying that cultus of Christianity often misses out on things like “kindness, welcome, solidarity, friendship, mutual respect”?
Christianity isn’t about being nice you know. It is all about believing in a collection of abstruse doctrines. I believe that that is what Our Lord was trying to emphasise in the parable of the sheep and goats.
Well I agree ‘nice’ is a poor word to describe Christianity. But I don’t find the sheep and goats abstruse. Quite the contrary. That the church, rather than its founder, deploys the abstruse for its own ends I think can be argued. But the founder’s message is pretty clear.
I think you might perhaps be missing a tiny element of (shall we say?) sarcasm.
You could well be right, but comments on this site often leave me wondering.
And what IS the founder’s message in sheep and goats. “He shall come again in judgement……” would surely be rejected by many in the Church.
Not at all, but I think Kemi Badenoch would sign up to these things. She confesses that she has lost faith in God, but believes in cultural Christianity and I wondered what she meant by that.
old maids bicycling to holy communion
Sorry, I don’t know who that is.
Don’t know who who is?
I suspect the question is about who Kemi Badenoch is. The answer is that she is a Conservative member of the House of Commons, and currently she is the Leader of the Opposition.
Yes, I realized that. Anyone in this country would have known the answer — and for anyone who doesn’t know the basics of British politics, well, DuckDuckGo or some other internet search engine will give you the answer in half a second, just four keystrokes. (I appreciate my answer was less than helpful, but even so.)
See above.
Oh dear, the old ‘disestablishment will fix everything’ shibboleth (that’s a Masonic reference, just to be clear) rears its ugly head.
An organisation is likely to be kinder, more transparent and inclusive if run by small secret and mainly boys only groups- discuss
The question of who actually ‘runs’ the CofE is indeed interesting. Is it the Bishops? Is it Synod? Is it the PCCs? I know where I’m placing my vote, and it isn’t with the first two.
As for transparency and inclusivity, like ‘progress’ I’m not at all convinced they’re unqualified moral goods. They’re nice enough words, I grant you.
I think of the Church of England being like a formerly very grand stately home whose foundations are rotting away. A disestablished church could continue to be run as a Top Down organisation but it is hard to imagine an established church that is Bottom Up. It is no accident that the General Secretary is a former royal courtier and spy. We know the King doesn’t actually appoint bishops but his formal approval is significant. Of course there are many parishes where the witness of ordinary people is valued but the function of an established church is to prop up… Read more »
You’ve analysed the situation perfectly. Disestablishment guarantees no positive change and only deprives the Church of what influence it still has.
That’s not exactly what I heard Mr Hawkins say.
“Disestablishment is a precondition for meaningful reform but it does not guarantee it.”
Funny, because it’s exactly what I heard him say. Perhaps our ears have differing presuppositions.
Is disestablishment a precondition for meaningful reform in your view?
That depends entirely on what one means by ‘meaningful reform.’ I’m not uncomfortable with hierarchy, the trappings of power, or semi-erastianism, so what others think are essential reforms might not be to my taste.
That was a quote from him, of course.
It also removes from the Church what little supervision and outside control it still has.
Trick question – no-one runs the CofE.
The real trick is assuming there’s such a thing as ‘The CofE’. It’s a confederation and would do well to remember that.
Indeed. I occasionally remind my PCC that we are trustees of the parish and have no legal responsibility to any other body.
Thank you, Martin, for your devoted service on Synod as a representative of the people of Rochester diocese, and for all the good work you have done. It is disgraceful that so much of the reform you have sought to bring about has been blocked by the cabal of loyal courtiers at the top, who see as their main or only purpose the defence of ‘the firm’ from all attacks and the maintenance of its reputation. By the latter criterion they could scarcely have done worse, as that reputation now could hardly be lower. We will just have to hope… Read more »
On the subject of Freemasonry I remember during my 12 years as a Monk at Roslin near Edinburgh in May 1989 sitting in the Public Gallery at a Session of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland when a Report on Freemasonry brought forward by a Presbytery in Central Scotland was debated on the floor of the General Assembly. The then Convenor of what was then known as the Panel of Worship and Doctrine, the Revd Dr Douglas Murray in introducing the Report to the Assembly said that “The problem was not that Freemasons do not have a Theology,… Read more »
Thanks, anecdotally, this was the kind of conflict over Freemasonry I recall.In Scotland and also in England. Oath-taking, secrecy, fraternal preferment. And the incompatibility of this with Christianity.