Kelvin Holdsworth What is in Kelvin’s Head? We are not stewards
Ian Paul Psephizo Money, sex, and power: Will the next archbishop save the Church of England?
Francis Martin Church Times What are the most pressing issues facing the next Archbishop of Canterbury?
Madeleine Davies Church Times Church of England is in need of a structural survey
Call me daft, but I thought it was Jesus’ job to save the Church of England.
Silly You! Surely you know it is Ian’s job….
But is Ian really an Anglican?
Unfortunately He’s a liberal and conservative evangelicals won’t work with Him.
That is the entire point of his article. At least read the introduction and conclusion!
What if He has moved on, Paul? Lampstands and Revelation 1-3 and all that. What happened to the Church of North Africa?
Re: Kelvin’s essay:
Unfortunately, it is difficult (if not impossible)–especially on the US side of the pond–to discuss “Creation” without getting into “creationism”. The anti-scientific ideology that reads Genesis as literal truth and rejects old-earth geology, evolution, cosmology since Copernicus, etc. Any official celebration of “Creation” would have to deal with that portion of the Christian world that insists that virtually all modern science is a lie propagated by atheists.
“all modern science is a lie propagated by atheists” — wow, you certainly live in circles I have never encountered. Is this a genuinely serious grouping somewhere hiding behind the Snopes Trial of decades ago?
Be interesting to quantify what ‘that proportion’ is. It certainly does not include St Augustine. Too easy to generalise from exceptional incidents. Did anybody ever say that most Americans are well educated?
Loads of interesting questions here! First, why does the means of creation have to be known to celebrate creation? If the Louvre had a Mona Lisa day, people wouldn’t spend it having tedious arguments about what pigments and brush stroke techniques had been used to paint it. Second, why do we assume we know all about science? We don’t! At the start of the 20th century people thought the universe was static, then they thought it was expanding but slowing down. Now it appears to be expanding and speeding up. So how scientifically orthodox does someone have to be to… Read more »
Merci. Of course.
Thanks.
This is useful.
https://www.theichthus.com/blog/2010/09/augustine-on-faith-and-science
You should pay more attention to the groups who are succeeding in passing legislation in states such as Louisiana and Oklahoma that require bible-based instruction in all subjects, including science–groups that have support from Donald Trump and his MAGA-aligned allies.
You should be more careful about expressing hyperbole.
Hyperbole is a great piece of rhetoric. Jesus seems to have used it all the time.
Not just all the time but more than that.
Sometimes hyperbole is fine. but to take ‘bible-based instruction’ and imply it means a fundamentalist approach in all subjects, is not fine. Particularly when the bible is somewhat of importance in the Christian religion. I heard on GB news disturbing stories about education in some UK schools. Only the other day I heard about hijabs being mandatory in some UK schools. But I assume they are atypical. Or convents. Somehow we must hold fast to an unbiased and truthful opinion. Truth is not just about correct facts. I heard an African American yesterday (in one of the sermons I shared)… Read more »
Hijab is mandatory in most Islamic secondary schools. Why should it not be? A school is free to set its own uniform requirements isn’t it? There have been questions over whether the requirement should extend to non Muslim pupils and I believe that in most cases exception is made for them.
My message below may be misinterpreted. In the context of Charlie Kirk’s views on civil rights, the historical narrative of lynching is key. Was the UK any better during religious wars in the 16th century?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States
Was the mob firing of immigrant hotels as bad? What about the person arrested for encouraging it? Was she exercising ‘freedom of speech’?
Is a modern UK mob any better than a USA lynch mob?
What is our message as a Jesus-led church?
The really scary thing is that it might not be hyperbole
It’s total nonsense. I’ve lived and worked in America. They’re miles more scientifically developed than we are in terms of space exploration, engineering, computing, Nobel prizes won etc. It’s culturally convenient but ridiculous to think they can figure out all the science but only we have the genius to see how it relates to theology – although not how it relates to getting anyone to actually believe the theology. Also, I prefer scientists with originality who question things and can find stuff out, rather than people who just know stuff other people have found out. Quite often in research, the… Read more »
I like your first sentence! I too have worked in America. In every country there are outliers who have ridiculous views.
Harvard Divinity School is hardly an unthinking backwater.
Not a rant, a corrective to this 2-dimensional stuff.
See below my link to a talk about Genesis. I celebrate education regarding Genesis, and its impact on all subjects. No, I am not talking about using Genesis as a scientific literal text
There is a famous book on software, the Mythical Man Month, which has a chapter headed by a discussion on the Tower of Babel.
Scopes trial (in case someone wants to search for it. )
Pardon. Good catch. ‘Snopes’ (Faulkner’s Flem Snopes) isn’t Scopes.
Please note that it is also the Canadian side of the pond, Pat. Trump hasn’t annexed us yet.
And the season of Creation has been observed in mainline churches in Canada for several years now, without any of the fundamentalist issues you have spelled out. In our (Mennonite) church we are using these resources.
To my surprise, I agreed with about two thirds of what Ian Paul wrote. It was certainly a surprise to me (it might come as a surprise to Ian too!), and likely to my friends as well! His comments about sexuality, of course, I disagreed with, and particularly his view that the fact that the C of E has an official theology of sex and marriage requires all clergy to believe it and uphold. Okay, but the C of E also, for centuries, had an official view on the ordination of women (which it regarded as the official catholic view… Read more »
Evangelicals believe in change based on faithful obedience likened to the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman. See the problem?
I wonder if it’s more complicated. To assert ‘the C of E also, for centuries, had an official view on the ordination of women (which it regarded as the official catholic view that all Christians had believed from time immemorial)’ looks true at one level. But was that official view that the ordination of women COULD not happen, or that the ordination of women SHOULD and DID not happen. Unless the CofE had some kind of an official formulary clearly dictating that it upheld the IMPOSSIBILITY of women’s orders, then those arguing for its POSSIBILITY, and ultmately DESIRABILITY would not… Read more »
I appreciated Ian Paul’s article also, along with Tim Wyatt’s essay which Ian cited extensively. But I think one aspect was missed. Unlike the Pope, the Archbishop does not have direct line management control of the bishops, who have great autonomy within the current governance structures. But there is one way in which the new Archbishop does have power to influence things, and that is in that the appointment of new bishops. Whilst new bishops are selected by a committee which votes, the archbishops are a standing member of every committee. Their views must have some influence in the selection… Read more »
“It seems to me that the most important thing whoever is appointed needs to do first is reject this kind of ‘saviour’ complex.” I Paul.
Re I Paul’s comments. There was a time, not long ago, when communion-wide discussions urged an enhanced authority for the ABC. When the (much vilified by progressives) Covenant–a project initiated, in this same spirit, by AB Rowan Williams–was tanked by the CofE, that was the end of that. He retired. Welby’s tenure followed. Here we are. So yes, whoever the ABC is really does not make very much difference. The context in which that might have been so is gone. That ship has sailed. Certainly in the Anglican Communion-not-a-communion. And his comments underscore that may also be true in the… Read more »
The Anglican Communion Covenant didn’t find wide acceptance anywhere – except among conservatives who wished to expel TEC from the Anglican Communion. There are 42 Provinces. 10 voted for it. Obviously you were heavily invested in the idea Christopher, especially through your Anglican Communion Initiative project, and its predecessor. But I’m pretty sure Archbishop Rowan, as one who supported the progressive approach, was not sorry to see the end of the road for the Covenant. The idea, that was baked in to it, was the notion of different classes of Anglicans. First, second etc etc. Who would possibly want that,… Read more »
Thanks, Andrew. I hope the CT article is widely read. It expresses the kind of practical wisdom that most pastors are skilled in. And which any church needs if it’s not to fracture over issues which can seem absolutely fundamental at one point in time but which 50 or 100 years later may look rather different. There are plenty of examples from history but it’s impossible to know at the time which are truly significant (the Barmen Declaration?) and which will become irrelevant (The C19 Disruption in the Church of Scotland?)
I’m not sure the Disruption is irrelevant – Disruptors ultimately won, landowners can no longer appoint the minister over the heads of the congregation, and anyone who tried to change it back now would be given short shrift (though it might be interesting to see how many congregations would tolerate it if it meant the landowner had to pay the upkeep of the church and minister, as of old).
Thanks, that’s a good point. But I still wonder if it would be so contentious if it arose today. Another example would be the Downgrade controversy between Spurgeon and the Baptist Union in the late 1880.
Rowan is still very much around. I was at a Christian Aid service just last Wednesday in which he read out a poem he’d specially written.
Of course he is! Getting out of the ABC thing has blessed him. He wrote a very insightful essay for his friend Ephraim Radner’s festschrift.
I have a nice stack of correspondence from him during the ACI period, when I was in Scotland, and doing ACI work.
What he’s doing now is a better use of his time.
The Anglican Communion and the CofE will be what under God’s providence He wants them to be.
One of the really admiral qualities of Rowan was that he made friendships and collegiality across the divides within the so called Anglican wars. He didn’t just stick with his tribe.
It’s another example of the story in the Church Times I posted a link to about Norman Tebbit and the Dean of Eds and Ips
Why are you telling me about a man who has been a colleague and friend, as if you are to referee that for him? Rowan filled in for Hans Frei at Yale after his premature death, and he was very much welcomed. I recall a lovely dinner at the home of Sterling Professor of Divinity, Brevard Childs, with him, his wife and young child. A charming, self-effacing man. I was later Professor of Old Testament there, for 11 years. When I was Professor of Divinity at St Andrews, we re-acquainted. A wise soul. We were not–at Yale or at St… Read more »
No need for a touch of the vapours Christopher. We know how you were Professor of this and that all over the world. You never cease to remind us, after all! I was pointing out in the thread – not simply to you – that Rowan was a particularly effective Archbishop because he didn’t simply favour those of his personal views. He rather sacrificed his personal views – something he has later come to reflect on and wonder if that was always the right thing to have done. But his approach was one of friendship across the divides; another example,… Read more »
Who is ‘we’? Only you dwell on this. Odd.
Ian Paul quotes Tim Wyatt’ “how to build God’s kingdom?” Where did this language – which seems all pervasive – come from? The kingdom is for God to give and us to receive. At Mass we sang Bernadette Farrell’s Longing for Light, a lovely hymn, but ending “Making your kingdom come.” How?
It comes from Vatican II, e.g., Lumen Gentium Ch IV (31): “ But the laity, by their very vocation, seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and by ordering them according to the plan of God. They live in the world, that is, in each and in all of the secular professions and occupations. They live in the ordinary circumstances of family and social life, from which the very web of their existence is woven. They are called there by God that by exercising their proper function and led by the spirit of the Gospel they may work… Read more »
Thank you for this. But as you suggest, ‘seeking’ the kingdom is not the same as ‘making’ it come. I first heard a similar expression in Evangelical circles; which struck me as odd given that tradition’s emphasis on justification by faith, not works. But now it pops up everywhere. But then, Pelagianism has been called ‘the English disease’. A RC deacon friend of mine tells me that his (Irish) bishop will not sing that verse!
Doing something to make the kingdom come rather than sitting on your hands waiting for God to do something is the essence of liberation theology isn’t it? Also Pelagius was a Welshman and not English, his name being a translation of Morgan. Fr Bob Morgan, long time Vicar of Glanely, and father of the current Welsh First Minister, often used to claim from the pulpit how proud he was to have Pelagius as an ancestor.
I haven’t claimed Pelagius as English, merely the heresy which bears his name as the (other) vice Anglais. Dublin born G B Shaw noted how the English feel moral when merely uncomfortable.
Kingdom come is about God’s Spirit working in us – the new creation. Being born again by the Spirit etc etc you can read all about it in the NT.
As I only read the NT twice a day, perhaps you could answer my original question, Adrian, or have you bought into salvation by works?
Great! Then why do you think Christians need to be baptised by the Spirit in order to do God’s work on earth. If you brought into the idea of kingdom come, it would transform your reading of the NT. It’s how the bible ends.
“Making the kingdom come” sounds very much like some of the things I hear from American fundamentalists. They use it to justify their unwavering support for the Israeli government, based on the quasi-biblical prophesy that the end-times will begin when the Jews repossess the promised land.
People read the bible in many strange ways, but the language in the NT refers to a kingdom that has come, is coming and will come and not just the end times.
Thinking Anglicans know that – it’s entry level stuff. But my question was ‘how can we make the kingdom come?’ Since you refuse to answer it, I’ll do it for you: You can’t! To believe otherwise is pride. And if you read the OT, you’ll find God has ways of humbling our pride.
One might think that God’s kingdom comes when we do God’s will — when we share our daily bread and other necessities, when we share forgiveness and reconciliation. In so far as we are able to do that then we are living in God’s kingdom — the kingdom of God is at hand. Pray too that you aren’t tempted to give up.
It’s way above my pay grade to determine whether we are able to do that on our own, or only by the grace of God. But you don’t have to worry about that. Just do it anyway!
John Keble once noted that we can never know the results of our actions and, while that should keep us humble, it should also make us hopeful. Any more than that – such as making the kingdom come – is, as you say, above our pay grade. Way above!
A joke one of my non-Christian friends told me.
A vicar was walking past the front garden of one of the parishioners, who was busy gardening a wonderful array of flowers.
The vicar congratulated him, saying ‘between yourself and God, you have made a glorious spectacle for all to enjoy.’
The (non church going) parishioner responded with ‘you should have seen it when God was doing all the work alone’.
While we’re thinking of the topic of creation, can I strongly recommend our own David Runcorn’s excellent book ‘Playing in the Dust: a Pilgrimage with the Creation Stories‘ (Norwich, Canterbury Press, 2024). Here’s the blurb: ‘Playing in the Dust offers a fresh, engaging take on the creation stories, inviting readers to explore these ancient narratives in a new light. David Runcorn brings an adventurous, open-hearted approach to themes like being made in God’s image, freedom and obedience, and the tension between dominion and ecology. Through short, conversational chapters, Runcorn explores key questions about human identity, calling, temptation, rest, and more,… Read more »
It may also help to listen to my brother in law, sadly departed. He also wrote a book on creationism.
I don’t know what ‘head of Winchester cathedral’ means. he was dean.
https://youtu.be/3yy_yUNiR8c?si=TJfLQ3vgkIaQguNj
On sex and marriage, Ian Paul says “that the Church of England actually has a very well developed and settled position on marriage and sexuality.” However this simply is not the case. Neither is it the case the church catholic in every time, every culture, every tradition, and every branch for as long as it has existed has held a settled view. What marriage is and therefore what the Christian theology of marriage is has constantly, always evolved. What marriage is now isn’t what it was 50, 100, 1,000 years ago. Second, he asks us to check Canon C26 which… Read more »
Many people seem to have a conveniently flexible view of which “doctrines of the Church” should be upheld. As far as I’m aware ordination requires attesting to all 39 Articles. Do people have their fingers crossed behind their backs? And the same during the recitation of the Creeds? As for marriage, quite apart from the categories enumerated here (civil partnerships, same sex relationships etc) what about divorced and remarried clergy? The Church has already gone a long way to abandoning its “settled doctrine” on marriage and so much else. For an outsider looking in, the “settled doctrine” on which so… Read more »
“As far as I’m aware ordination requires attesting to all 39 Articles”. Pam that actually isn’t correct. And hasn’t been so for decades. Let me quote: “In 1968, a report on Subscription and Assent to the 39 Articles was produced by the Archbishops’ Commission on Christian Doctrine. Focusing in particular on the approach to Scripture set out in the Articles, it called for the then current Declaration of Assent to be changed, so that it would ‘not tie down the person using it to acceptance of every one of the Articles’, and would leave open ‘The possibility of fresh understandings… Read more »
Thanks – that’s very interesting and useful. A beautifully drafted fudge…. as a retired senior civil servant I can spot one a long way off. “Declares their belief in this inheritance”. How could anybody NOT believe that the 39 Articles are an inheritance? Not a bit the same as saying they believe in the Articles. Anyway, the fact is that several coaches and horses have been driven through the church’s “doctrine on marriage” without, it seems, people having felt driven to die in a ditch about it.
Nice to see the photo of William Temple in the CT piece ‘An Archbishop of Canterbury called to preach and to teach’. Whenever I see a photo of William Temple I recall that his biographer Iremonger records that he had a defect of the right eye. It was an issue, though not an insuperable one, when as Bishop of Manchester he started to drive a car. Someone I once knew (a member of CR) who had had dealings with Temple in the late 1930s and early 1940s on hearing that from me said that he ‘didn’t believe a word of… Read more »
I would like to see Psalm 104 play a part in the discussion of Creation alongside Genesis 1
Worth recalling the excess of positive vibes about Welby when he was appointed. Perhaps best thing to do is not get our hopes up too much, and settle for someone who avoids slogans & glitz, knows that there are no quick & easy solutions, and simply tries to do the job with minimum of fuss.
Yes. in particular, the idea that he was going to bring immense experience of managing from the oil industry.
He was never a manager, as would commonly be understood, at Enterprise Oil, where I also worked. He was very senior, but with a staff of a small handful.