Alternative episcopal oversight is a theological aberration.
The Church of England is not congregationalist .
The diocesan bishop should not be negotiable even if he or she is not to the taste of a particular parish.
The Church is not a cafeteria.
In a congregationalist setting the whole congregation would have voted on such a matter. In this setting it seems like a chosen few (the pcc) rubberstamped the ministers decision.
The matter is not a matter for priest alone nor by both priest and laity combined. The bishop is the bishop.
Congregations are not to select who they want, nor is the parish priest.
I’m querying your use of the term “congregational” Paula Blake seems to be arguing that the congregation haven’t had a real voice in decision making. That is inherently not a congregational process or situation.
Flying Bishops have been around for a long while now. It doesn’t really seem to be the case that simply “the bishop is the bishop”.
Is this really a “theological” issue? Isn’t it more properly described as an “ecclesiastical” issue–that is, having to do with the nature of the church and not the nature of God?
David Runcorn
20 days ago
The first question to ask in response to Paula Blake’s disturbing blog is – what did the parish profile say on the issue of LLF, the ministry of women, or expectations of a collaborative ministry. That is another way of asking if the new vicar was hiding conservative views until he was appointed?
When trust in episcopal oversight breaks down over PLF and women priests/bishops then small c congregationalism is one of the possible outcomes, for example, by giving greater weight to the parish profile agreed by the laity when appointing clergy as has been suggested. More theological in my view than the alternative episcopal oversight proposed and set up by, who else, bishops!
I am not sure, from your comments, if you understand the established place of the parish profile in the appointment process of a new vicar. It is drawn up by a consultative process by the congregation and expresses their clear sense of vision, priorities and gifts they are seeking in a new vicar. A candidate is not imposed on a church from the outside, Above all it is not an alternative ‘congregationalist’ approach when trust in the bishop has broken down. But perhaps I have misunderstood you.
And I think we’re probably all aware of situations where a cleric has been appointed, and then belatedly revealed their opposition to (in the case of which I know most) the ordination of women. I do know of a parish which had a long tradition of female clergy suddenly finding themselves after six months with someone coming out for (as it was then) FiF.
I know of cases where a candidate has been imposed on a parish by a bishop. They were told that if they did not accept the bishop’s choice, he wouldn’t send them anyone else. It was either the bishop’s man, or no one.
That’s tough for both the congregation and the new vicar – bad way to start a new ministry.
I always reminded wardens when I was involved in an appointment that they had the absolute right to reject any candidate not to their taste. This is however time limited; after I believe 2 years the appointment would revert not to your own bishop, but to the Archbishop. Not a perfect solution, but one that is episcopal, not congregational and avoids an irreconcilable standoff between bishop and parish.
It is also vital that the parish representatives ask candidates (if no one else does) in interview about LLF and women clergy. I know of one parish which discovered only after he had been appointed that the Vicar was strongly opposed to women priests. The parish profile had said that the parish would be equally happy with a male or female vicar and everyone simply assumed that any candidates would support women priests.
This sort of thing usually makes me angry, but this eloquent and restrained letter just made me very sad. Kicking the can down the road is never a good solution and the 2014 decisions were just that.
Sarah Mann
20 days ago
I have the utmost sympathy for Paula Blake and am grateful for her brave and frank account. The lack of transparency to which she refers extends to her church’s website which makes no reference, that I could spot, to the parish’s stance on sexuality, or the decision to divert money to the Ephesian fund, or to alternative episcopal oversight. I hope that every person on her church’s electoral roll will be invited to the meeting she has fought for and encouraged to express their opinions.
They are also part of something called the ‘Sussex Gospel Partnership’ (scroll down) – which is is liinked to St Helen’s Bishopsgate. So whether they knew it or not this looks like a very conservative appointment indeed.
Fair point (I wonder when it was added?). However, the EEO/AEO dimension and the Ephesian fund do seem absent….. At the risk of repeating myself, there is a church of which I know which has chosen to downplay its take on LLF because they know full well that it would alienate their target audience.
I totally agree with kicking out PLF if the vicar, supported by the PCC majority, so wishes it. I am afraid there will need to be a reckoning when I shall probably move on from my parish church as the stipendiary clergy accept revisionist theology. Equally, those who disagree with orthodoxy should likewise leave and find a nice rainbow church. We shall all eventually vote with our feet.
There will be an opportunity after this morning’s service to ask “Nick” (the vicar) and some members of the PCC questions about the Church of England. (See newsletter.)
Nobody is being encouraged to express their opinions. Except Nick and the PCC. Others can ask questions. That’s no consultation.
Charles Read
20 days ago
The Church of England does not offer alternative episcopal oversight. The phrase used is deliberately ‘extended’ episcopal oversight. I know very well that most of those requesting EEO actually want AEO and use that phrase to describe it. I am surprised WATCH does not mention this in connection with the (otherwise excellent) article. I also know AEO is what CEEC et al is asking for. As others point out, this is on the way to congregationalism.
Perhaps the history is that the Church of England has tolerated/accommodated churches and clergy who have an essentially congregational ecclesiology without itself being a congregational church. That applies to the functional ecclesiology of many parishes, and is not just the espoused ecclesiology of a few. That ecclesiological tension has always been there, but Charles knows as well as I do (we were both part of discussions and debates in different ways) that the settlement arrived at when women were made priests and bishops resisted separatist ecclesiology (Canons A4 and A8 matter). Actually Canon A4 is material here – alternative oversight… Read more »
Aren’t we increasingly on the way to congregationalism ? Far greater than at any point in my lifetime..The centrifugal forces clearly outweigh the centripetal. Declining numbers, fewer clergy, lack of money will surely increase it’s likelihood.
Isn’t an element of congregationalism an essential component of a communion like the Church of England? From the very start under Elizabeth I parishes have differed widely in their worship style and theology. We have never had the uniformaty of the Roman or even Orthodox churches.
Surely “congregationalism” simply means that the priest should fit with the worship style of the parish and listen to her congregation.
Why is that a bad thing ?
Until some faction of the ‘Alliance’ decide that some of those bishops aren’t, in fact, orthodox. Maybe creationism will be their next chosen hill in their continuing campaign to arrive at a church comprised only of those who agree with them.
Hi Nigel,
Like you I can see no connection but have often noticed the conflation.
I smiled wryly at your last statement though, and I know you enjoy a good wind up.But saying
folk need psychological help is fine as long as you are on the right side of the blanket so to speak. My son-in-law ( my son’s husband) was offered ‘help’ as a teenager. It was called conversion therapy.
I wonder if a connection can be made between the women priests and a same-sex blessings issues by applying ideas around patriarchy. Patriarchy is the idea that a man (or more correctly, a father) is in charge of and in possession of his family. Within patriarchal cultures women are seen as being weaker and of less value, and the man is required to be dominant and assertive. The problem is that Christianity has absorbed patriarchal values into its core theology. We see ourselves as children of a patriarchal, Father figure God. These ideas can be quite unconsciously powerful. Think back… Read more »
Yes, that makes sense. The linkage is patriarchy, phobia and psychology, not theology.
I don;t seem to see too much patriarchy in the sermon on the mount.
Brendel’s death leads me yet again to Beethoven’s Hammerklavier sonata. Never has a more ‘masculine, directed’ first movement been followed by a more ‘feminine, vulnerable’ slow movement, with the fugue embracing all psychological states.
Does not patriarchy (and anxiety about women priests) ultimately arise from fear?
Nigel, Timothy Goode’s essay last week was very good on this. https://viamedia.news/2025/06/12/the-body-the-church-forgot-reimagining-sacred-space-from-the-margins/ It seems to me that Jesus’ ministry was an anti-patriarchal pushback against a strongly authoritarian, patriarchal Jewish state power. Jesus’ movement was a nurturing place for women, who could have positions of authority, and arguably a safe space for people we would today call LGBT. There were many mystery religions in and around the Greco-Roman Empire doing the same sort of thing. But then over the next few hundred years, and especially after Constantine (although it started with Paul) the Jesus movement was turned into an authoritarian, patriarchal… Read more »
I don’t see how Paul started a movement back to patriarchy? He put women in positions of authority, encouraged women to wear a head covering at worship as a sign of their authority, taught that husbands and wives should be in submission to each other, and told masters to be good to their slaves.
It’s a fair question Janet. As in all things Christian people have different interpretations depending on where they are coming from. You are right that Paul did mention women in positions of authority in his letters, and many of his comments can be interpreted as accepting women’s roles in the early church. But other interpretations are possible, and I would argue that some of his advice suggests the beginnings of move towards a more patriarchal community, which became much stronger later. With regard to the hair covering, one author argues that “church services were noisy, charismatic affairs, quite different from… Read more »
Since many of the early Christians were from the poorer classes, I doubt that a lot of women would have had elaborate coiffures with jewellery, ribbons, and veils. And Paul explicitly told women to wear a head covering during worship ‘as a sign of authority’. The parallel here is with Jewish men, who wear a head covering (yarmulke, kippah) as a sign of their authority. In view of the looming threat of persecution of Christians and suppression of Christianity, Paul’s concern to avoid churches being too obviously subversive is understandable. I don’t see that as a longing to suppress charismatic… Read more »
Thanks Janet, I value TA for the feedback I get from different points of view, especially somebody with your long experience, but you and I come at this from different contexts so a bit of disagreement might be expected.
I think we underestimate the influence of charismatic mystery religions on the early church and on Jesus’ ministry, but I know I am in a minority view.
The question is who gets the power to define “decently and in order”. The men or the women?
I think we might be using the term ‘charismatic’ differently. I’m using it to refer to the exercise of the spiritual gifts as described in e.g. 1 Cor 12: tongues, prophecy, healing, evangelism, pastor/teacher, administration.
But I agree about the value of TA for discussion from different points of view. I’ve changed my views on a lot of things over the years, due to debates on TA.
Hi Janet, that difference in definition may well be the case. My problem is that in following my own interest in mystery religions around the time of Jesus I have to rely on mystery religion experts who may not be deeply immersed in Christianity (like Barbara Ehrenreich above) and people deeply immersed in the Christian tradition but who may not have that mystery religion mindset, and somehow bridge the gap between them. Both sides have useful things to say. But that is a slow iterative process in which conversation on TA is very helpful. And you are right that problems… Read more »
Tongues are other languages (Latin, Coptic, Aramaic etc)
Prophecy is preaching
Healing is visiting the sick
Evangelism is reading and teaching scriptures
Administration is managing the money.
That’s all.
I think that was the point. Within your personal frame of reference those definitions hold water. But somebody from a different tradition might apply different meanings to those words with equal validity.
The question is how we communicate constructively across that difference, rather than insist that our own interpretation is the only correct one.
It is a digression from the main topic, but how would you identify masculinity and femininity in music? What makes the first movement of the Hammerklavier masculine? Is it the expression of power?
I deliberately put ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ in inverted commas. It is not my distinction, but one which some might make. I did a quick AI search, and it returned:
The “virile” aspect highlights the sonata’s strength, energy, and masculine quality,
This is obvious nonsense, which is what I expect from AI.
My main point was that using terms like ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ is archaic and not useful.
The patriarchal emphasis crept into the renewal movement back in the 1980s, and has never gone away; its had time to be adopted by a whole new generation of young evangelical clergy in a good many denominations, partly because they like the sense of security and authority it gives them. It is as much a problem for straight men like me as it is for women and gay men because it imposes a whole series of role expectations which we may not wish, or indeed be capable of filling. (Pat answer – oh, you must trust the Lord more, brother… Read more »
True power and authority always rests with the body of Christ, with Christ at its head, and ‘subterfuge’ is the way of the cross. Jesus and Paul confront power and authority with apparent weakness, or meekness. One should not be mistaken for the other. The meek will inherit the earth. That’s the difference,
Hi Nigel, Thank- you. Sadly conversion therapy doesn’t usually work like that . It is advised for a devout young Christian who is told by those they love that their sexuality is the worst possible sin and their family will be waiting for them broken hearted in heaven because they won’t be able to join them… Not the sort of emotional blackmail that it’s very easy just to tell people where to get off. It’s not the prerogative of con evos either. My son in law is a very devout Roman Catholic , and a very good man . But… Read more »
How sad that your son in law’s mother wasn’t invited to the wedding, the truth has a habit of making itself known and then the hurt for this lady will be compounded. Your son in law must have been heartbroken that his mother wasn’t with him on the happiest day of his life. The RC church has been very cruel in the past with the mother and baby homes in Ireland; hopefully Pope Leo following on from Pope Francis will soften a little.
I find your “wry smiling “ at orthodox believers needing psychological help rather more of a sneer backed up by the bitterness of wanting the current western world view of Christian marriage to fit neatly with your families life choices. This is typical of “outraged liberals “ that frequently voice their views on this forum.
In your book Geoff I am sure I’m an outraged liberal, so please enjoy sneering at me.
However in my wooly little outraged liberal book I think psychological help is very important but should be just that – ie help. To be helpful it needs to be neutral, not covert emotional manipulation from either what you call an orthodox or (wooly ) liberal point of view . Otherwise it is not helpful or professional but highly damaging to whoever becomes entangled.
I’m sorry I failed to make that point clearly enough so you misunderstood me
For evangelicals, what is crucial to both issues is what the Bible teaches. Conservative evangelicals see both women’s ordination and same sex marriage as issues of biblical authority. Inclusive evangelicals, and others, see them as matters of biblical interpretation. For con evos, therefore, it may feel as if the whole basis of their faith is threatened by female ministers or same sex partners; which is why they sometimes come across as dogmatic, defensive, or even aggressive. Having been brought up as a con evo, I had an epiphany one day when I realised I became most dogmatic on any particular… Read more »
To suggest all conservative evangelicals think the same way on women ordination is incorrect, they don’t. Which in itself demonstrates these issues are not directly linked. I see there are attempts to do so theologically, but without merit. Referring to God as Father, does not mean that men are like God and similarly referring to men as fathers does not mean that they are against SSM. This is nonsense. Everyone is made in God’s image and father’s have children, who may or may not be gay.
To be clear, I certainly went through a period of being a con evo, and have great regard for the best of them. Some of them – not so much. Same with anglo catholics or any other group. I don’t like little boxes. Indeed, my distaste is for those who are dominated by those little boxes, and seem to gain their personal self-worth from clinging to them (and fighting alternative little boxes). Eventually, as we have found in many cases, their world falls apart. I used to teach Things Fall Apart in Kenya. Consistent and logical approach? I don’t think… Read more »
I too am unsure that a consistent and logical approach is possible with Christianity, which is part of the reason I’m no longer a con evo. But I can admire people who try to be consistent and rational. Perhaps that would have been a better word to choose. My father, as a young man, attended Westminster Chapel when Campbell Morgan was the pastor and Martin Lloyd-Jones his assistant pastor. One Sunday Campbell Morgan preached on ‘Why a Systematic Theology is Impossible’. That evening Lloyd Jones preached on ‘Why a Systematic Theology is Essential’. My father was a Lloyd-Jones man; I… Read more »
Gender is either relevant to the rites and sacraments of the church or it isn’t. I can’t see a way to answer that question differently for different rites that doesn’t amount to special pleading.
David Runcorn
20 days ago
We do not know to what extent the approach of this new vicar represents a continuation of the convictions and style of the previous one. Or if this is a change in a significantly conservative direction that was not made clear in application or interview (ie was kept hidden). If it is the latter I really would expect the bishop and archdeacon involved in the appointment process to have seen this coming. They should be advising the parish reps that an applicant they are attracted to is coming with a particular agenda. It does seem as if the new vicar… Read more »
Yes. I can think of another example – parish reps keen an applicant A who is a nice young man with a family but who may not support OW and is more distinctly catholic than the parish concerned. Archdeacon decides that all 3 candidates (B and C are female) will be asked at interview if they support the ordination of women and would have any curate ordained by the diocesan. . A seems to have said yes and is appointed. He has moved the worship in a more distinctly catholic direction (maybe a good idea – who knows?) but does… Read more »
I was also asking if this was a change of direction or not… The statement about PLF says that it was added on 21st March 2023. The current vicar appears not to have been appointed until September 2025. Stephen Bowen was the minister there from 1979-2012 https://www.heartpublications.co.uk/vicar-retires-after-33-years-at-st-johns-felbridge/ Google says that he was a director of the Church Society. The church website talks about a leaving tea for Rev Mark Francis who had been there 2013-2023. The website says that Bishop of Maidstone (the predecessor to the Bishop of Ebbsfleet) did confirmations and preached for them during this time. An article… Read more »
Peter
19 days ago
What we are witnessing is the general collapse of episcopal government to the despair of us all.
No thoughtful Anglican of any theological persuasion seeks or wants congregationalism.
It (congregationalism) is clearly outside of the mainstream of historic Protestant ecclesiology.
I think that’s probably stretching a point a little, both in regard to whether congregationalism is “mainstream” as a polity, and whether some Anglicans would consider it preferable to Episcopacy. Congregationalists, both big C and small, have been around for a very long time, and some of the largest protestant denominations are congregational. What it is not, however, is Anglican, which has the historic episcopate as one of four elements of the Chicago-Lambeth quadrilateral. It is clear that some Anglicans chafe at the idea of episcopacy, the idea of owing canonical obedience to the bishop, and the bishop being able… Read more »
You didn’t specify “in this country”. However, Baptists Together, with a little under 2000 congregations and 100 000 members is reasonably large. On the other hand, the Southern Baptist Convention has nearly 50 000 congregations, 12 million members and a weekly attendance of 4 million. It’s about as significant in the US as the CofE is in the UK.
The comments in this thread which imply some C of E people would like to be Congregationalists are about the C of E.
The article by Paula Blake is about the Church of England.
You want to take the discussion in a different direction which is fine but you have no basis for correcting what I said because you want a different discussion
You weren’t replying to those comments, you started a new thread. “Historic Protestant ecclesiology” would, to any reasonable reader, encompass ecclesiologies held throughout the history of protestantism, which naturally includes congregational, presbyterian, and episcopal polities. If you wished to limit your discussion to England only then (a) you should have said so and (b) realised that the point was tautologous – the Church of England is the only large protestant denomination left in England.
That depends on which Protestant mainstream you adhere to! A lot of my own churchmanship is essentially congregational – the authority abides with the local body – due to the way I read the Bible and the variety of churches I’ve belonged to. (Baptist and URC as well as CofE) Each has their own valid points, and as usually the case, are as much a reflection of the individual believer’s own mental outlook and personality as anything else.
Most C of E folk, if not congregational, have little sense of being in an episcopally ordered church. Local clergy get prayed for in the intercessions, but rarely ‘N our Bishop’, despite the fact that without ‘N’ there would be no working parish church, no priest, no sacraments. And clergy commit the ecclesial solecism of welcoming (even warmly!) their bishop as if she were a guest rather than there as of right. This emphasis on the parish over the diocese is good in so far that it reflects where the strength of Anglicanism has traditionally been, yet it leaves the… Read more »
Me too. The exception being when the suffragan joined us for the Parish Eucharist before going on to a non-liturgical event, in which case I wouldn’t welcome him at all as he probably didn’t want attention drawn to him. Although I did ask him once why he always turned up when I’d preached a rubbish sermon.
Hannah
19 days ago
Seems to me that the sorry situation outlined by Paula Blake may be a case for the Independent Reviewer. The guidance notes accompanying the House of Bishops’ Declaration on the Ministry of Bishops and Priests (GS Misc 1077) is clear: Extended Episcopal Oversight can only be granted on the basis of theological conviction in relation to gender and ordained ministry. That seems not to be the issue here. Further, the same note points out that “A decision to pass a resolution has significant consequences for the exercise of ministry in the parish. It is good practice, therefore, for the PCC… Read more »
One might think so, but…..from the original letter it does not seem that the PCC passed a Resolution, but the Bishops of Southwark and Croydon just agreed to invite the Bishop of Ebbsfleet to act in the parish. If the PCC passed a Resolution then in theory it could be challenged because the theological issue is not about the ordained ministry of women, which is the only legal reason for passing such a Resolution. The Guidance note which accompanies the Declaration does say it is good practice to widely in the parish and community in the parish , but despite… Read more »
The vicar in question was, I believe, on the staff of Emmanuel Church, Wimbledon, so his theological stance on women’s ministry should have been obvious to everyone involved from the start of the appointments process. (He was a signatory to Emmanuel’s statement following the report on the Rev Jonathan Fletcher in 2021; see: https://walkingwith.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/A+message+from+the+Elders++Trustees+of+ECW+23rd+March+2021.pdf ) There cannot have been any ambiguity about the approach he would take as vicar on this topic nor the style of ministry/leadership he would adopt, and so questions need to be asked about how the process was handled including if the patron was someone other… Read more »
If I lived in London I’d join Mr Wooldridge for a drink in the Engine Room at 7.45pm on the 2nd July 2025. We could have a jolly good debate about the place of queer people in the CofE over a pint and a packet of pork scratchings. We’ve got to take these people to task in their own milieu. LGBTQI+ people living in London who identify as male or at least non binary ought to toddle along for a chinwag with Nick.
I fear you may have greatly misread the cultural moment if you think that turning up to a conservative space uninvited will do anything but strengthen their convictions.
Indeed Charles! No prawn sandwiches, no one wearing clothes of mixed fibres and no one with money on deposit with the bankers earning interest. The con evos love the convenient bits of Scripture.
Yes but can you show me where Paul abolishes the no pork scratchings rule ?
God 'elp us all
19 days ago
I confess to a pleasant surprise, even admiration, that Paula Blake has felt able to ‘hang in’ with her church in Felbridge. The Parish Profile published with the ‘job ad’ (see attachment to Peter M’s contribution to this thread) refers to the encouragement given to attendance at the annual Keswick Convention, which the BBC reported on last year as ‘controversial’ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86llvx8353o I can’t find it now, but I did see reference to separate Men’s group and Women’s group meetings, suggesting a ‘complementarian’ outlook, possibly indicative of an antipathy toward women’s ordination. There were signs of what was being sought in… Read more »
My local LEP has men’s groups as well as women’s groups. The minister is a woman, as was the last. Most certainly not complementarian in outlook. So I don’t think having a separate groups is an indication of a ‘complementarian’ outlook, possibly indicative of an antipathy toward women’s ordination.
Simon Dawson
18 days ago
Thanks for posting Lizette Miller’s blog BTW. I appreciated her discussion of why an Anglican service always seems to be so full of words. A thing I struggle with.
David Runcorn
18 days ago
Thanks to all who dug out the background to Paula Blake’s church. This has clearly been a nailed down ultra conservative enclave for many years. I am rather puzzled that the blog shows no awareness of this background? It is clearly a central factor in explaining the outcomes – and episcopal response.
The line between a priest with conservative views and a priest who is a potential schismatic is not always a clear one but is one where crossing it matters. People also often tolerate teaching they disagree with to worship at their parish church, or because the faith community supports them in other ways, or they simply like the style of worship.
Indeed. I rather think that Paul Blake’s piece could have been entitled “Shock as Woman Discovers Conservative Evagelical Church believes Conservative Evangelical things”.
I think I might be puzzled if the Vicar had agreed to Bishop Rosemarie doing the honours only to find that forthwith she was being eschewed in favour of a flying bishop.
Marian Birch
18 days ago
I am increasingly feeling that many of us who have a vision of a generous and inclusive Anglicanism have perhaps been too generous and need to ‘call out’ the bullying tactics which seem rather prevalent at the Anglican ‘ends’ – certainly at the conservative evangelical end of the Anglican spectrum. It is worth pointing out that much of the sexism and discrimination against women that is practised in conservative evangelical churches is NOT covered by the Five Guiding Principles. These ‘Principles’ only relate to the situation of ORDAINED women – they do not refer to, and do not cover, various… Read more »
Jeremy Pemberton
18 days ago
I believe the first music specifically composed for singing in English was Tallis’s setting of the Litany in 1544. The Litany, in any form, is hardly ever used now – it was a joy to sing this setting this summer for our Rogationtide Procession from Southwell Minster to Brackenhurst, Nottingham Trent’s agricultural, equine, ecological and horticulatural campus.
I rather wish we had something like the Great Litany you find in some TEC service books. Seems grander than what we have in CW..the BCP version is beautiful in its own way but bits are rather archaic. ” Privy conspiracy” etc. I used part of it the day after Diana’s death when suddenly a CNN news team appeared at St George’s Bloomsbury. I don’t know whether it ever appeared on US television.
I used the BCP Litany in a market town church at a time when the air was full of the stench of funeral pyres during the Foot & Mouth epidemic. It’s words – “from plague, pestilence…” – seemed to fit the gravity of the occasion better than our anodyne modern language version. Feeling rather pleased with myself for having sung it tolerably well, I was brought down to earth by the organist’s rebuke for not having substituted “Duke of Cornwall” for “Prince of Wales”. A deadly serious faux pas in Exeter and Truro dioceses!
In many TEC churches, the Litany is recited as part of the service on a Sunday in Lent, usually the first Sunday. It is also common that the Litany is sung in a procession around the church, with the choir singing the petitions and the congregation singing the responses.
Alternative episcopal oversight is a theological aberration.
The Church of England is not congregationalist .
The diocesan bishop should not be negotiable even if he or she is not to the taste of a particular parish.
The Church is not a cafeteria.
In a congregationalist setting the whole congregation would have voted on such a matter. In this setting it seems like a chosen few (the pcc) rubberstamped the ministers decision.
The matter is not a matter for priest alone nor by both priest and laity combined. The bishop is the bishop.
Congregations are not to select who they want, nor is the parish priest.
I’m querying your use of the term “congregational” Paula Blake seems to be arguing that the congregation haven’t had a real voice in decision making. That is inherently not a congregational process or situation.
Flying Bishops have been around for a long while now. It doesn’t really seem to be the case that simply “the bishop is the bishop”.
Theologically the diocesan is the bishop of his diocese regardless of quirky arrangements for the extremist conevos and concatholics
Is this really a “theological” issue? Isn’t it more properly described as an “ecclesiastical” issue–that is, having to do with the nature of the church and not the nature of God?
The first question to ask in response to Paula Blake’s disturbing blog is – what did the parish profile say on the issue of LLF, the ministry of women, or expectations of a collaborative ministry. That is another way of asking if the new vicar was hiding conservative views until he was appointed?
When trust in episcopal oversight breaks down over PLF and women priests/bishops then small c congregationalism is one of the possible outcomes, for example, by giving greater weight to the parish profile agreed by the laity when appointing clergy as has been suggested. More theological in my view than the alternative episcopal oversight proposed and set up by, who else, bishops!
I am not sure, from your comments, if you understand the established place of the parish profile in the appointment process of a new vicar. It is drawn up by a consultative process by the congregation and expresses their clear sense of vision, priorities and gifts they are seeking in a new vicar. A candidate is not imposed on a church from the outside, Above all it is not an alternative ‘congregationalist’ approach when trust in the bishop has broken down. But perhaps I have misunderstood you.
And I think we’re probably all aware of situations where a cleric has been appointed, and then belatedly revealed their opposition to (in the case of which I know most) the ordination of women. I do know of a parish which had a long tradition of female clergy suddenly finding themselves after six months with someone coming out for (as it was then) FiF.
In my experience, David, parish profiles these days tend towards being the greatest works of fiction since War and Peace.
With clerical application forms coming a close second, Anna Karenina perhaps.
Excellent!!
I know of cases where a candidate has been imposed on a parish by a bishop. They were told that if they did not accept the bishop’s choice, he wouldn’t send them anyone else. It was either the bishop’s man, or no one.
That’s tough for both the congregation and the new vicar – bad way to start a new ministry.
I always reminded wardens when I was involved in an appointment that they had the absolute right to reject any candidate not to their taste. This is however time limited; after I believe 2 years the appointment would revert not to your own bishop, but to the Archbishop. Not a perfect solution, but one that is episcopal, not congregational and avoids an irreconcilable standoff between bishop and parish.
It’s a pity that not all bishops have your integrity.
Thanks for the unsought for promotion, Janet! I was on the diocesan Patronage Board though.
It is also vital that the parish representatives ask candidates (if no one else does) in interview about LLF and women clergy. I know of one parish which discovered only after he had been appointed that the Vicar was strongly opposed to women priests. The parish profile had said that the parish would be equally happy with a male or female vicar and everyone simply assumed that any candidates would support women priests.
The parish profile seems to be available here: https://www.cofepathways.org/members/modules/jobV2/fdownload.php?j=81ad09da2e3a90da&f=048f533ae531a71c suggesting that this was considered as part of the appointment process
This sort of thing usually makes me angry, but this eloquent and restrained letter just made me very sad. Kicking the can down the road is never a good solution and the 2014 decisions were just that.
I have the utmost sympathy for Paula Blake and am grateful for her brave and frank account. The lack of transparency to which she refers extends to her church’s website which makes no reference, that I could spot, to the parish’s stance on sexuality, or the decision to divert money to the Ephesian fund, or to alternative episcopal oversight. I hope that every person on her church’s electoral roll will be invited to the meeting she has fought for and encouraged to express their opinions.
Not so: https://www.stjohnsfelbridge.com/new-to-church/what-we-believe and scroll down.
They are also part of something called the ‘Sussex Gospel Partnership’ (scroll down) – which is is liinked to St Helen’s Bishopsgate. So whether they knew it or not this looks like a very conservative appointment indeed.
The full doctrinal basis of the Fellowship is worth a read. An additional confessional basis for a C of E parish???
Fair point (I wonder when it was added?). However, the EEO/AEO dimension and the Ephesian fund do seem absent….. At the risk of repeating myself, there is a church of which I know which has chosen to downplay its take on LLF because they know full well that it would alienate their target audience.
The statement about PLF says that it was added on 21st March 2023, before the vicar was appointed and before the Parish Profile was agreed.
I totally agree with kicking out PLF if the vicar, supported by the PCC majority, so wishes it. I am afraid there will need to be a reckoning when I shall probably move on from my parish church as the stipendiary clergy accept revisionist theology. Equally, those who disagree with orthodoxy should likewise leave and find a nice rainbow church. We shall all eventually vote with our feet.
There will be an opportunity after this morning’s service to ask “Nick” (the vicar) and some members of the PCC questions about the Church of England. (See newsletter.)
Nobody is being encouraged to express their opinions. Except Nick and the PCC. Others can ask questions. That’s no consultation.
The Church of England does not offer alternative episcopal oversight. The phrase used is deliberately ‘extended’ episcopal oversight. I know very well that most of those requesting EEO actually want AEO and use that phrase to describe it. I am surprised WATCH does not mention this in connection with the (otherwise excellent) article. I also know AEO is what CEEC et al is asking for. As others point out, this is on the way to congregationalism.
Yes, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck….it comes across, to most, as a duck.
Yes i agree! But there is a time to be picky over semantics
Perhaps the history is that the Church of England has tolerated/accommodated churches and clergy who have an essentially congregational ecclesiology without itself being a congregational church. That applies to the functional ecclesiology of many parishes, and is not just the espoused ecclesiology of a few. That ecclesiological tension has always been there, but Charles knows as well as I do (we were both part of discussions and debates in different ways) that the settlement arrived at when women were made priests and bishops resisted separatist ecclesiology (Canons A4 and A8 matter). Actually Canon A4 is material here – alternative oversight… Read more »
Aren’t we increasingly on the way to congregationalism ? Far greater than at any point in my lifetime..The centrifugal forces clearly outweigh the centripetal. Declining numbers, fewer clergy, lack of money will surely increase it’s likelihood.
Isn’t an element of congregationalism an essential component of a communion like the Church of England? From the very start under Elizabeth I parishes have differed widely in their worship style and theology. We have never had the uniformaty of the Roman or even Orthodox churches.
Surely “congregationalism” simply means that the priest should fit with the worship style of the parish and listen to her congregation.
Why is that a bad thing ?
The CEEC and Alliance have rejected AEO and have proposed a third Province, which presumably will be episcopal albeit led by orthodox bishops.
Until some faction of the ‘Alliance’ decide that some of those bishops aren’t, in fact, orthodox. Maybe creationism will be their next chosen hill in their continuing campaign to arrive at a church comprised only of those who agree with them.
All the bishops I know are orthodox. Nicea 1700 and all that!
Seems to me that two issues, women priests and same-sex blessings, have been conflated yet again.
I cannot myself see any connection.
Except a psychological connection, those who oppose women priests would tend to oppose same-sex blessings. They need psychological help.
Hi Nigel,
Like you I can see no connection but have often noticed the conflation.
I smiled wryly at your last statement though, and I know you enjoy a good wind up.But saying
folk need psychological help is fine as long as you are on the right side of the blanket so to speak. My son-in-law ( my son’s husband) was offered ‘help’ as a teenager. It was called conversion therapy.
I wonder if a connection can be made between the women priests and a same-sex blessings issues by applying ideas around patriarchy. Patriarchy is the idea that a man (or more correctly, a father) is in charge of and in possession of his family. Within patriarchal cultures women are seen as being weaker and of less value, and the man is required to be dominant and assertive. The problem is that Christianity has absorbed patriarchal values into its core theology. We see ourselves as children of a patriarchal, Father figure God. These ideas can be quite unconsciously powerful. Think back… Read more »
Yes, that makes sense. The linkage is patriarchy, phobia and psychology, not theology.
I don;t seem to see too much patriarchy in the sermon on the mount.
Brendel’s death leads me yet again to Beethoven’s Hammerklavier sonata. Never has a more ‘masculine, directed’ first movement been followed by a more ‘feminine, vulnerable’ slow movement, with the fugue embracing all psychological states.
Does not patriarchy (and anxiety about women priests) ultimately arise from fear?
Nigel, Timothy Goode’s essay last week was very good on this. https://viamedia.news/2025/06/12/the-body-the-church-forgot-reimagining-sacred-space-from-the-margins/ It seems to me that Jesus’ ministry was an anti-patriarchal pushback against a strongly authoritarian, patriarchal Jewish state power. Jesus’ movement was a nurturing place for women, who could have positions of authority, and arguably a safe space for people we would today call LGBT. There were many mystery religions in and around the Greco-Roman Empire doing the same sort of thing. But then over the next few hundred years, and especially after Constantine (although it started with Paul) the Jesus movement was turned into an authoritarian, patriarchal… Read more »
I don’t see how Paul started a movement back to patriarchy? He put women in positions of authority, encouraged women to wear a head covering at worship as a sign of their authority, taught that husbands and wives should be in submission to each other, and told masters to be good to their slaves.
It’s a fair question Janet. As in all things Christian people have different interpretations depending on where they are coming from. You are right that Paul did mention women in positions of authority in his letters, and many of his comments can be interpreted as accepting women’s roles in the early church. But other interpretations are possible, and I would argue that some of his advice suggests the beginnings of move towards a more patriarchal community, which became much stronger later. With regard to the hair covering, one author argues that “church services were noisy, charismatic affairs, quite different from… Read more »
Since many of the early Christians were from the poorer classes, I doubt that a lot of women would have had elaborate coiffures with jewellery, ribbons, and veils. And Paul explicitly told women to wear a head covering during worship ‘as a sign of authority’. The parallel here is with Jewish men, who wear a head covering (yarmulke, kippah) as a sign of their authority. In view of the looming threat of persecution of Christians and suppression of Christianity, Paul’s concern to avoid churches being too obviously subversive is understandable. I don’t see that as a longing to suppress charismatic… Read more »
Thanks Janet, I value TA for the feedback I get from different points of view, especially somebody with your long experience, but you and I come at this from different contexts so a bit of disagreement might be expected.
I think we underestimate the influence of charismatic mystery religions on the early church and on Jesus’ ministry, but I know I am in a minority view.
The question is who gets the power to define “decently and in order”. The men or the women?
I think we might be using the term ‘charismatic’ differently. I’m using it to refer to the exercise of the spiritual gifts as described in e.g. 1 Cor 12: tongues, prophecy, healing, evangelism, pastor/teacher, administration.
But I agree about the value of TA for discussion from different points of view. I’ve changed my views on a lot of things over the years, due to debates on TA.
Hi Janet, that difference in definition may well be the case. My problem is that in following my own interest in mystery religions around the time of Jesus I have to rely on mystery religion experts who may not be deeply immersed in Christianity (like Barbara Ehrenreich above) and people deeply immersed in the Christian tradition but who may not have that mystery religion mindset, and somehow bridge the gap between them. Both sides have useful things to say. But that is a slow iterative process in which conversation on TA is very helpful. And you are right that problems… Read more »
Tongues are other languages (Latin, Coptic, Aramaic etc)
Prophecy is preaching
Healing is visiting the sick
Evangelism is reading and teaching scriptures
Administration is managing the money.
That’s all.
I think that was the point. Within your personal frame of reference those definitions hold water. But somebody from a different tradition might apply different meanings to those words with equal validity.
The question is how we communicate constructively across that difference, rather than insist that our own interpretation is the only correct one.
Where does he say that head covering is a sign of authority?
It is a digression from the main topic, but how would you identify masculinity and femininity in music? What makes the first movement of the Hammerklavier masculine? Is it the expression of power?
I deliberately put ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ in inverted commas. It is not my distinction, but one which some might make. I did a quick AI search, and it returned:
The “virile” aspect highlights the sonata’s strength, energy, and masculine quality,
This is obvious nonsense, which is what I expect from AI.
My main point was that using terms like ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ is archaic and not useful.
The patriarchal emphasis crept into the renewal movement back in the 1980s, and has never gone away; its had time to be adopted by a whole new generation of young evangelical clergy in a good many denominations, partly because they like the sense of security and authority it gives them. It is as much a problem for straight men like me as it is for women and gay men because it imposes a whole series of role expectations which we may not wish, or indeed be capable of filling. (Pat answer – oh, you must trust the Lord more, brother… Read more »
True power and authority always rests with the body of Christ, with Christ at its head, and ‘subterfuge’ is the way of the cross. Jesus and Paul confront power and authority with apparent weakness, or meekness. One should not be mistaken for the other. The meek will inherit the earth. That’s the difference,
Sorry about your son-in-law. Hope he told them where to get off. That seems to be an issue of power and control.
Hi Nigel, Thank- you. Sadly conversion therapy doesn’t usually work like that . It is advised for a devout young Christian who is told by those they love that their sexuality is the worst possible sin and their family will be waiting for them broken hearted in heaven because they won’t be able to join them… Not the sort of emotional blackmail that it’s very easy just to tell people where to get off. It’s not the prerogative of con evos either. My son in law is a very devout Roman Catholic , and a very good man . But… Read more »
How sad that your son in law’s mother wasn’t invited to the wedding, the truth has a habit of making itself known and then the hurt for this lady will be compounded. Your son in law must have been heartbroken that his mother wasn’t with him on the happiest day of his life. The RC church has been very cruel in the past with the mother and baby homes in Ireland; hopefully Pope Leo following on from Pope Francis will soften a little.
I find your “wry smiling “ at orthodox believers needing psychological help rather more of a sneer backed up by the bitterness of wanting the current western world view of Christian marriage to fit neatly with your families life choices. This is typical of “outraged liberals “ that frequently voice their views on this forum.
In your book Geoff I am sure I’m an outraged liberal, so please enjoy sneering at me.
However in my wooly little outraged liberal book I think psychological help is very important but should be just that – ie help. To be helpful it needs to be neutral, not covert emotional manipulation from either what you call an orthodox or (wooly ) liberal point of view . Otherwise it is not helpful or professional but highly damaging to whoever becomes entangled.
I’m sorry I failed to make that point clearly enough so you misunderstood me
Geoff, what is ‘the current western world view of Christian marriage’?
For evangelicals, what is crucial to both issues is what the Bible teaches. Conservative evangelicals see both women’s ordination and same sex marriage as issues of biblical authority. Inclusive evangelicals, and others, see them as matters of biblical interpretation. For con evos, therefore, it may feel as if the whole basis of their faith is threatened by female ministers or same sex partners; which is why they sometimes come across as dogmatic, defensive, or even aggressive. Having been brought up as a con evo, I had an epiphany one day when I realised I became most dogmatic on any particular… Read more »
To suggest all conservative evangelicals think the same way on women ordination is incorrect, they don’t. Which in itself demonstrates these issues are not directly linked. I see there are attempts to do so theologically, but without merit. Referring to God as Father, does not mean that men are like God and similarly referring to men as fathers does not mean that they are against SSM. This is nonsense. Everyone is made in God’s image and father’s have children, who may or may not be gay.
To be clear, I certainly went through a period of being a con evo, and have great regard for the best of them. Some of them – not so much. Same with anglo catholics or any other group. I don’t like little boxes. Indeed, my distaste is for those who are dominated by those little boxes, and seem to gain their personal self-worth from clinging to them (and fighting alternative little boxes). Eventually, as we have found in many cases, their world falls apart. I used to teach Things Fall Apart in Kenya. Consistent and logical approach? I don’t think… Read more »
I too am unsure that a consistent and logical approach is possible with Christianity, which is part of the reason I’m no longer a con evo. But I can admire people who try to be consistent and rational. Perhaps that would have been a better word to choose. My father, as a young man, attended Westminster Chapel when Campbell Morgan was the pastor and Martin Lloyd-Jones his assistant pastor. One Sunday Campbell Morgan preached on ‘Why a Systematic Theology is Impossible’. That evening Lloyd Jones preached on ‘Why a Systematic Theology is Essential’. My father was a Lloyd-Jones man; I… Read more »
I admired Lloyd-Jones’ books on Romans and The Sermon on the Mount. At least, I admired them when a con evo!
Gender is either relevant to the rites and sacraments of the church or it isn’t. I can’t see a way to answer that question differently for different rites that doesn’t amount to special pleading.
We do not know to what extent the approach of this new vicar represents a continuation of the convictions and style of the previous one. Or if this is a change in a significantly conservative direction that was not made clear in application or interview (ie was kept hidden). If it is the latter I really would expect the bishop and archdeacon involved in the appointment process to have seen this coming. They should be advising the parish reps that an applicant they are attracted to is coming with a particular agenda. It does seem as if the new vicar… Read more »
Yes. I can think of another example – parish reps keen an applicant A who is a nice young man with a family but who may not support OW and is more distinctly catholic than the parish concerned. Archdeacon decides that all 3 candidates (B and C are female) will be asked at interview if they support the ordination of women and would have any curate ordained by the diocesan. . A seems to have said yes and is appointed. He has moved the worship in a more distinctly catholic direction (maybe a good idea – who knows?) but does… Read more »
I was also asking if this was a change of direction or not… The statement about PLF says that it was added on 21st March 2023. The current vicar appears not to have been appointed until September 2025. Stephen Bowen was the minister there from 1979-2012 https://www.heartpublications.co.uk/vicar-retires-after-33-years-at-st-johns-felbridge/ Google says that he was a director of the Church Society. The church website talks about a leaving tea for Rev Mark Francis who had been there 2013-2023. The website says that Bishop of Maidstone (the predecessor to the Bishop of Ebbsfleet) did confirmations and preached for them during this time. An article… Read more »
What we are witnessing is the general collapse of episcopal government to the despair of us all.
No thoughtful Anglican of any theological persuasion seeks or wants congregationalism.
It (congregationalism) is clearly outside of the mainstream of historic Protestant ecclesiology.
I think that’s probably stretching a point a little, both in regard to whether congregationalism is “mainstream” as a polity, and whether some Anglicans would consider it preferable to Episcopacy. Congregationalists, both big C and small, have been around for a very long time, and some of the largest protestant denominations are congregational. What it is not, however, is Anglican, which has the historic episcopate as one of four elements of the Chicago-Lambeth quadrilateral. It is clear that some Anglicans chafe at the idea of episcopacy, the idea of owing canonical obedience to the bishop, and the bishop being able… Read more »
Please tell me the name of a large congregational denomination in this country.
You didn’t specify “in this country”. However, Baptists Together, with a little under 2000 congregations and 100 000 members is reasonably large. On the other hand, the Southern Baptist Convention has nearly 50 000 congregations, 12 million members and a weekly attendance of 4 million. It’s about as significant in the US as the CofE is in the UK.
The comments in this thread which imply some C of E people would like to be Congregationalists are about the C of E.
The article by Paula Blake is about the Church of England.
You want to take the discussion in a different direction which is fine but you have no basis for correcting what I said because you want a different discussion
You weren’t replying to those comments, you started a new thread. “Historic Protestant ecclesiology” would, to any reasonable reader, encompass ecclesiologies held throughout the history of protestantism, which naturally includes congregational, presbyterian, and episcopal polities. If you wished to limit your discussion to England only then (a) you should have said so and (b) realised that the point was tautologous – the Church of England is the only large protestant denomination left in England.
That depends on which Protestant mainstream you adhere to! A lot of my own churchmanship is essentially congregational – the authority abides with the local body – due to the way I read the Bible and the variety of churches I’ve belonged to. (Baptist and URC as well as CofE) Each has their own valid points, and as usually the case, are as much a reflection of the individual believer’s own mental outlook and personality as anything else.
Most C of E folk, if not congregational, have little sense of being in an episcopally ordered church. Local clergy get prayed for in the intercessions, but rarely ‘N our Bishop’, despite the fact that without ‘N’ there would be no working parish church, no priest, no sacraments. And clergy commit the ecclesial solecism of welcoming (even warmly!) their bishop as if she were a guest rather than there as of right. This emphasis on the parish over the diocese is good in so far that it reflects where the strength of Anglicanism has traditionally been, yet it leaves the… Read more »
I always said that I was delighted that the bishop was with us this morning!
Me too. The exception being when the suffragan joined us for the Parish Eucharist before going on to a non-liturgical event, in which case I wouldn’t welcome him at all as he probably didn’t want attention drawn to him. Although I did ask him once why he always turned up when I’d preached a rubbish sermon.
Seems to me that the sorry situation outlined by Paula Blake may be a case for the Independent Reviewer. The guidance notes accompanying the House of Bishops’ Declaration on the Ministry of Bishops and Priests (GS Misc 1077) is clear: Extended Episcopal Oversight can only be granted on the basis of theological conviction in relation to gender and ordained ministry. That seems not to be the issue here. Further, the same note points out that “A decision to pass a resolution has significant consequences for the exercise of ministry in the parish. It is good practice, therefore, for the PCC… Read more »
One might think so, but…..from the original letter it does not seem that the PCC passed a Resolution, but the Bishops of Southwark and Croydon just agreed to invite the Bishop of Ebbsfleet to act in the parish. If the PCC passed a Resolution then in theory it could be challenged because the theological issue is not about the ordained ministry of women, which is the only legal reason for passing such a Resolution. The Guidance note which accompanies the Declaration does say it is good practice to widely in the parish and community in the parish , but despite… Read more »
The vicar in question was, I believe, on the staff of Emmanuel Church, Wimbledon, so his theological stance on women’s ministry should have been obvious to everyone involved from the start of the appointments process. (He was a signatory to Emmanuel’s statement following the report on the Rev Jonathan Fletcher in 2021; see: https://walkingwith.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/A+message+from+the+Elders++Trustees+of+ECW+23rd+March+2021.pdf ) There cannot have been any ambiguity about the approach he would take as vicar on this topic nor the style of ministry/leadership he would adopt, and so questions need to be asked about how the process was handled including if the patron was someone other… Read more »
Diocesan Board of Patronage (according to Crockford)
Any information as to who the members of that board are?
to answer my question, scroll down the attached:
https://southwark.anglican.org/about-us/who-we-are/governance-synods/
If I lived in London I’d join Mr Wooldridge for a drink in the Engine Room at 7.45pm on the 2nd July 2025. We could have a jolly good debate about the place of queer people in the CofE over a pint and a packet of pork scratchings. We’ve got to take these people to task in their own milieu. LGBTQI+ people living in London who identify as male or at least non binary ought to toddle along for a chinwag with Nick.
I fear you may have greatly misread the cultural moment if you think that turning up to a conservative space uninvited will do anything but strengthen their convictions.
There is a very clear invitation on their website!
Of course if they were truly Biblical there would be no pork scratchings
Indeed Charles! No prawn sandwiches, no one wearing clothes of mixed fibres and no one with money on deposit with the bankers earning interest. The con evos love the convenient bits of Scripture.
Christians can thank God for pork scratchings! Biblically.
That’s if you actually like them. For a Staffycher mon, I regret to tell you, I conner stand ’em!
Yes but can you show me where Paul abolishes the no pork scratchings rule ?
I confess to a pleasant surprise, even admiration, that Paula Blake has felt able to ‘hang in’ with her church in Felbridge. The Parish Profile published with the ‘job ad’ (see attachment to Peter M’s contribution to this thread) refers to the encouragement given to attendance at the annual Keswick Convention, which the BBC reported on last year as ‘controversial’ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c86llvx8353o I can’t find it now, but I did see reference to separate Men’s group and Women’s group meetings, suggesting a ‘complementarian’ outlook, possibly indicative of an antipathy toward women’s ordination. There were signs of what was being sought in… Read more »
My local LEP has men’s groups as well as women’s groups. The minister is a woman, as was the last. Most certainly not complementarian in outlook. So I don’t think having a separate groups is an indication of a ‘complementarian’ outlook, possibly indicative of an antipathy toward women’s ordination.
Thanks for posting Lizette Miller’s blog BTW. I appreciated her discussion of why an Anglican service always seems to be so full of words. A thing I struggle with.
Thanks to all who dug out the background to Paula Blake’s church. This has clearly been a nailed down ultra conservative enclave for many years. I am rather puzzled that the blog shows no awareness of this background? It is clearly a central factor in explaining the outcomes – and episcopal response.
The line between a priest with conservative views and a priest who is a potential schismatic is not always a clear one but is one where crossing it matters. People also often tolerate teaching they disagree with to worship at their parish church, or because the faith community supports them in other ways, or they simply like the style of worship.
Indeed. I rather think that Paul Blake’s piece could have been entitled “Shock as Woman Discovers Conservative Evagelical Church believes Conservative Evangelical things”.
I think I might be puzzled if the Vicar had agreed to Bishop Rosemarie doing the honours only to find that forthwith she was being eschewed in favour of a flying bishop.
I am increasingly feeling that many of us who have a vision of a generous and inclusive Anglicanism have perhaps been too generous and need to ‘call out’ the bullying tactics which seem rather prevalent at the Anglican ‘ends’ – certainly at the conservative evangelical end of the Anglican spectrum. It is worth pointing out that much of the sexism and discrimination against women that is practised in conservative evangelical churches is NOT covered by the Five Guiding Principles. These ‘Principles’ only relate to the situation of ORDAINED women – they do not refer to, and do not cover, various… Read more »
I believe the first music specifically composed for singing in English was Tallis’s setting of the Litany in 1544. The Litany, in any form, is hardly ever used now – it was a joy to sing this setting this summer for our Rogationtide Procession from Southwell Minster to Brackenhurst, Nottingham Trent’s agricultural, equine, ecological and horticulatural campus.
York Minster still uses The Litany, for example on Sunday mornings in Lent.
I rather wish we had something like the Great Litany you find in some TEC service books. Seems grander than what we have in CW..the BCP version is beautiful in its own way but bits are rather archaic. ” Privy conspiracy” etc. I used part of it the day after Diana’s death when suddenly a CNN news team appeared at St George’s Bloomsbury. I don’t know whether it ever appeared on US television.
I used the BCP Litany in a market town church at a time when the air was full of the stench of funeral pyres during the Foot & Mouth epidemic. It’s words – “from plague, pestilence…” – seemed to fit the gravity of the occasion better than our anodyne modern language version. Feeling rather pleased with myself for having sung it tolerably well, I was brought down to earth by the organist’s rebuke for not having substituted “Duke of Cornwall” for “Prince of Wales”. A deadly serious faux pas in Exeter and Truro dioceses!
In many TEC churches, the Litany is recited as part of the service on a Sunday in Lent, usually the first Sunday. It is also common that the Litany is sung in a procession around the church, with the choir singing the petitions and the congregation singing the responses.
A practice that was common in my choirboy youth ( 1958- 66) in a Prayer Book Catholic Parish