Since the pandemic I have been touring 12 dioceses (two of which are in Wales) in detail, as well as attending services in a number of others. To paraphrase David Voas, my own personal ‘anecdote’ across thousands of churches might now constitute a species of [admittedly flawed] ‘evidence’. Based on what I have seen, there are a few instances of intensive growth (some of which may amount, in part, to the cannibalisation of other churches), but practically everywhere else the pattern appears to be one of remorseless decline up to the point of extinction. The youngest members of the ‘last… Read more »
A noisy revival is the last thing the ’quiet generation’ wants and would probably prefer a quiet death.
Peter Misiaszek
20 days ago
Ian Paul makes some interesting observations about growth. I wonder if the C of E stats office dug a little deeper into the numbers, would they find that their trends mirror that of the Diocese of Toronto. We too have experienced atypical growth in the number of Average Sunday Attendees and the number of Identifiable Givers. The variables mutually corroborate one another. When we noticed the significant uptick in 2023 I was careful not to be too ecstatic. After all, it could simply be an anomaly. But now that our 2024 numbers are in, the trend indicates a continued rise… Read more »
Froghole’s remarkable observations shouldn’t be regarded as purely anecdotal but in reality constitute the kind of careful observational qualitative research that makes sense of what’s going on. I hope he will find some way of collating the more detailed notes he no doubt has collected over time and maybe publishing them in some way that will not compromise his own anonymity. Ian Paul’s piece is worthy of careful study–the simple graphs he discusses are very apposite, but it is something of a combination of careful discussion of evidence and the statement of very sincerely held but settled views. The last… Read more »
Very many thanks indeed for your kind comments. I cannot help but think that the claims currently being made by some about ‘growth’ are founded on an artificially low base line: namely the aftermath of the pandemic. One of the things which struck me most forcibly in the two or more years following the end of the final lockdown was the evisceration of worship provision across much of the country. There has been a gradual creep back to pre-2020 provision in some – but by no means all – places, but there are certain forms of provision which have largely… Read more »
Only a few days ago I read the St David’s diocesan newspaper, which was announcing the second stage of their ‘Pruning for Growth’ project. As a visitor to the diocese this was my first contact with the programme, which according to the paper is led by a committee formally known as ‘the Gardening Group’. Personally speaking, it took a lot of understanding, reading it to the end before discovering that it could be summed up as ‘closing churches and amalgamating parishes’. (Forgive me, please, if I’m wrong, but that’s the meaning it conveyed at the close.) Now that is not… Read more »
Kyle Johansen
19 days ago
Sharon seems to be engaging in utter hypocrisy. It is she who is seeking to hollow out the word “equal” to mean “the same”. If I have two children and I help one to be become a high-ranking doctor and the other to become a QC then I have help them “YYY”. What word can we use for YYY when we get rid of the word “equal”, in order to have it mean “the same”. We already have a term for “the same”. It’s “the same”. If you think that women should be able to fill “the same” roles as… Read more »
Kyle, it’s possible to be a thinking Anglican without being an insulting Anglican. Clearly you disagree with Sharon Jagger, but accusing her of ‘utter hypocrisy’ is unacceptable.
‘Can you clarify what you mean by ‘If I have two children and I help one to be become a high-ranking doctor and the other to become a QC then I have help them “YYY.”?
If you don’t like the term ‘utter hypocrisy’ then what term can we use when someone accuses other people of emptying a word of meaning as part of her quest to empty a word of meaning? It should be ‘helped’. If I can’t say I helped them ‘equally’ because we’ve made ‘equally’ mean the same, then what can we say? (One thing I’ve thought of is that by destroying the word ‘equally’ then they don’t have to explain their anti-Christian attitude that views the layman as unequal to a Bushop since it is trivial that the roles are not the… Read more »
You might simply have said, ‘it’s ironic that in your quest to empty the word “equal” of meaning, you’ve accused others of emptying the word of meaning.’ If that’s what you think. When you insult someone in terms like ‘utter hypocrisy’ you weaken your own argument. As for your second point, we are part of a hierarchical church in a hierarchical society. Theologically we believe that all are equal in God’s eyes, and many of us are trying to combat deference, but it’s a matter of fact that on the whole, bishops enjoy higher status in the C of E… Read more »
The founder of Christianity didn’t say to the Pharisees ‘It’s ironic that you are clean on the outside but not on the inside.’ Instead He said … ‘You blind Pharisee’,’You brood of vipers’, ‘You are like whitewashed tombs’ and ‘You hypocrites’.
That didn’t weaken His argument, indeed it was part of the chain of events that led to the salvation of the world. But it does raise the question of how those who follow Him can best debate issues robustly while also following His command to love one another.
Jesus was part of a culture in which hyperbole was a common figure of speech (‘if your eye offends you, pluck it out…’). We Brits are part of a culture which more commonly uses understatement. So a phrase like ‘utter hypocrisy’ arguably has more impact here than it would have done to Jesus’ hearers. Besides, Jesus knew the hearts of those he met, and none of us has that kind of unerring knowledge of people’s motives.
Women should be able to fill “the same” roles as men.
Happy now, Kyle? [Am I courageous? I would think I was merely stating the obvious!]
FearandTremolo
19 days ago
I always love Ian Paul’s pieces, they’re so well thought through and considered. I’m sure there is data on this, but I’d be fascinated to see some demographic and regional data on the growth and decline. Where we are in South London, we’ve got an enthusiastic new priest a few years ago, and have now been able to set up a ‘young couples’ group. It’s early days and it’s a bit rough and ready, but there is some evidence here of the quiet revival. The reason I’m curious about this more granular data is that I wonder if the collapse… Read more »
What exactly has Starmer said about trans people that they object to? It was the same with Starmer and Gaza – he was accused of saying various things, and not calling for a ceasefire, when the opposite was true, as anybody who could read Labour party statements in late 2023 would be able to tell. Corbynites twist and turn at every junction. I wonder why?
But also, formally irrelevant to the point, which is that there are movements of young people interested in faith who aren’t what one might stereotype. There’s – anecdotally – quite a diverse bunch of people. Now, I think they’re mostly in central London because of central London’s population and resource, but, it suggests that there is a targeted outreach programme that could be run elsewhere.
Starmer literally said Israel had the right to cut off food and water, then rather than apologising denied he ever said it, despite it being on video. He has also refused to recognise Israeli crimes against humanity and take any action beyond mild bleating, while continuing to allow the supply of war material to Israel.
Starmer recently denied that trans women are women, contrary to previous affirmations. And Starmer is responsible, along with Streeting, for swallowing the fatally flawed Cass report, and for the increasing restrictions on trans people’s access to gender affirming care.
Cass’ report is not fatally flawed. It has just been corroborated by the department of HHS’ review in the US, which is even more abrupt and the Karolinska hospital in Sweden.
Read the statement I linked to below, and tell us what is wrong with it. He fully recognises the death and destruction, and robustly attacks it. Regarding his initial interview with Nick Ferrari, yes, it was in the immediate aftermath, and yes, he was caught off guard, Nick has a tendency to bully, and yes, there may have been a distinction in his mind whether cutting of food and water was a legal or humanitarian issue. But the constant castigaton of the Labour Party position is sickening, and I wonder what the motives are. ‘swallowing the fatally flawed’. Really? Arguing… Read more »
At least you are honest and say what you truly believe. Do you really think there is any way the State of Israel will be destroyed, short of a nuclear war started by Iran, and escalating to world war?
To be clear, you think the State of Israel should cease to exist, and all Jewish people living there should disperse or be killed? In other words, another holocaust?
I feel pretty safe in saying that nobody here is advocating genocide towards Jews, either by mass murder or expulsion (I wish I could say the same about genocide towards Palestinians. The existence of the State of Israel as currently constituted is not coterminous with the continued presence of Jewish people in Palestine. A free Palestine means free for all the people from the river to the sea, whether Jew or gentile. That cannot happen while an ethno-nationalist state occupies most of it.
I fear this may be an optimistic viewpoint which has no support in history. I wish it were true, but not in my lifetime.
Matthew has clearly stated (unless I am misrepresenting) that he want Israel to be destroyed. I did ask him to clarify, but he has not (yet) responded. So I am not so convinced by your first sentence.
What did you think of Ian Paul’s article and discussions therein?
As is usual, Ian Paul’s article is a bubbling mess of strawmen and dishonesty. Point 10 in particular both lies about the meaning of “from the river to the sea” and the definition of genocide, not to mention the usual whataboutery, to distract attention from Israel’s crimes.
Ok. That’s your view. What about Anton’s comments on the same blog? ‘Lies’ is a very strong accusation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide The key phrase (in my layman’s understanding) is any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, and from wiki The definition of genocide generates controversy whenever a new case arises and debate erupts as to whether or not it qualifies as a genocide. Sociologist Martin Shaw writes, “Few ideas are as important in public debate, but in few cases are the meaning and scope of a key idea less clearly agreed.” To be honest, whether acts… Read more »
Not the impression you would get if you listened to the SNP leader in Westminster, Stephen Flynn.
Fr Andrew
18 days ago
A few observations on the Church Growth / Ian Paul piece…. First I’d agree with Froghole’s scepticism with regard to quite what this data means. Experience in my own church mirrors that reported in the initial Statistics for Mission data (i.e. a small rise in attendance) but (locally and generally) A) the changes are very small- one or two per cent . Yes there are two years now of some small upward movement. I still think it’s too soon to crack out the champagne. B) I’d question how robust the data is; it’s incomplete (not all parishes send in returns)… Read more »
Should we, as a church, be relentlessly focussed on growing and not declining? Making growth the sine qua non, we’re in real danger of forgetting what we are. I suspect there are some unspoken theological assumptions behind the question. My answer would be yes, for two reasons. The first is missional – Jesus Christ tells us to make disciples of all nations. The second is based on sotieriology – If we believe that one needs to believe in Christ to be saved, similar to what the Apostle Peter teaches in Acts 4:12 or Christ speaking of Himself as being the… Read more »
Of course mission and soteriology matter; they are not simply synonyms for ‘growth’. ‘Growth’ is not the sine qua non of Christianity: we’re not some sort of spiritual pyramid scheme. Whereas proclaiming the word is of course part of what Christians do, following Jesus is much, much richer than that. Look at the rest of Matthew’s gospel: Jesus calls us to holiness. Growth is a tool to serve the faith, not the be all and end all of of it. It’s not there (in any substantial way) in the historical formularies of the church. Striving for growth, as you in… Read more »
I’m not sure I fully agree given the two theological assumptions I’m bringing. If knowledge of Christ is essential for salvation and if Christ is the only name in which salvation is found then numerical growth is hugely important. Particularly if we consider judgement also. You do touch on something though. Growth isn’t solely numerical. It is also in depth. We want to live holy lives and encourage others to do so. Making disciples doesn’t mean we stop with conversion. We want to see sanctification in the life of the believer but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t seek to share… Read more »
What benefits do you think that Christianity brings in this life – that, say, Islam does not bring? Are Christians happier, healthier or even wealthier than non Christians? Are the marriages of Christians more secure than the marriages of non-Christians? Evidence suggests not. So what is it that are you selling?
Could you offer some insight as to where you’re coming from with this question? I’d start by saying that I don’t think this is about what I’m selling but about what the gospel is. Here’s what I think Christianity has that Islam doesn’t have. – The salvation that Christ has brought through His death and resurrection and the consequences of what that means. Namely the assurance that our sins are forgiven by faith in Christ. Islam doesn’t offer this. From what I can see it offers works based salvation and a hope the scales are balanced in my favour view… Read more »
Thanks, Gareth for putting it so clearly and concisely. You do it a lot better than I could. As a simple point, to answer Maureen’s comments I’d suggest you read the second part of ‘Pilgrim’s Progress’, in which a variation of her question ‘Are Christians happier, healthier or even wealthier than non Christians?’ crops up, and is very robustly answered. NO. We are not exempt from the problems which are common to all mankind (unless of course you believe the prosperity gospel nonsense) Our marriages may fail, as may our finances and businesses. We are most assuredly not promised health,… Read more »
‘There is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or fathers or mother or father or children or lands for my sake or the gospel who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, and with them persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.’
A Christianity which is believed because it brings happiness, health or wealth is, in my opinion, no Christianity. It is a travesty. I emphasise the word ‘because’.
The Sermon on the Mount is maybe a good place to start.
That is the fourth useless answer I have received. Let me try again. Putting aside any question of my eternal destiny, that is, what might happen to me when I die, please tell me what benefits Christianity might bring me in this life.
Maureen – don’t you think that’s a touch rude when people have provided very careful answers to you? If possible I’d appreciate an answer to the question I raised to you in my comment. As explained already – I think I’ve given a good answer on how Christianity differs from Islam. I also think knowledge of our salvation in Christ does have clear practical implications including on our marriages (I’d invite you to look up what I mentioned on divorce rates for practicing Christians). The biggest difference I think the gospel makes is resilience in the face of suffering. Having… Read more »
Hatred and persecution? You will find little in the New Testament on any benefits Christianity might bring you, although I am the least of biblical or theological scholars here. BTW, if you think of conversion to Christianity because of the benefits it will bring when you die, think again. That is a false conversion.
Jesus in fact teaches in Matthew 25.31 – 46 that belief in him or anything else is irrelevant. God, we are told, judges us on how we treat other people, not on what doctrines we subscribe to.
For a more in depth take on the parable of the sheep and the goats I recommend this post on Ian Paul’s blog: https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/the-parable-of-the-sheep-and-the-goats-in-matthew-25/ A few thoughts otherwise: – What does Jesus mean when He speaks of His brothers and sisters? (Matthew 12:48-50 says His disciples are). So the parable is about how we’ve aligned ourselves with other believers and how we’ve aligned ourselves with Christ. – The parable is judgement for the fruit of faith. I.E it is a parable concerning sanctification. All believers who are justified will be sanctified in Christ. – We need to read Scripture holistically… Read more »
Ian Paul frequently claims that churches that hold a traditional view on ss relationships are growing and that inclusive/’liberal’ churches are not. I questioned this on his blog site a few years ago and he challenged me to give evidence of an inclusive church that was growing because it was inclusive. (Now conservatives also need to show that their churches are growing specifically because young people (rather improbably) are attracted to faith that is opposed to ss relationships. I have yet to see any). Well it is not difficult. I am just back from a few days away with some… Read more »
“He simply claimed the growth was for different reasons”
How wearying.
It’s pretty much a variant of the fundamental attribution error, but with theological characteristics replacing personal ones.’We are growing because of our theology; you are growing for another reason’.
These statistics are not garnered by independent auditors who go around counting people in church on Sunday, but from the churches own reporting, and, as any archdeacon will tell you, whatever a vicar says his typical Sunday attendance is needs to be halved to obtain a realistic number. Froghole is a kind of independent auditor, and his reports should be given greater credibility, in my opinion, than what the Bible Society has published.
I totally agree with the comment about Froghole’s reports. But one thing about the Statistics for Mission exercise is that the same sort of exercise is carried out every year, so unless there is some reason that the figures are becoming more (or less) biased, the assessment of trends still makes sense. The smooth behaviour over time (with the recent disruptive effect of the pandemic) also gives assurance of this.
“Whatever a vicar says his typical Sunday attendance is needs to be halved to obtain a realistic number”. Well, I am a church minister and I am very careful to be accurate in my counting. I know that our local Ministry Area leader (CinW) is, as well.
One of the benefits of being a long-term minister in a parish was knowing the regular congregation well. My habit for the last fifteen years or so before my retirement was that immediately after the last service of the morning I would go through the parish list, write down everyone who had been present that day at our services, and get an accurate count. This meant the only number I had to remember was the number of strangers – or regular non-list visitors – who had been present. These two figures gave me the total for the day. I noticed… Read more »
I don’t think that Froghole would have any motive for under reporting the numbers though. Perhaps he is just not seeing the ones hidden in galleries or behind pillars or lying down in the pews.
Matthew, the statement I quoted from you wasn’t about Froghole’s reporting, but about the reporting of others – and the general claim was that clergy exaggerate their statistics. I disagree with that generalization.
Ken Eames
17 days ago
On the topic of attendance statistics… As the person responsible for calculating the figures, thank you to everyone who provided the information. The dataset to which I have access includes information from over 90% of Church of England churches, which is the highest it has been in my time. I have an approach with which I am satisfied for estimating to fill in the gaps. Thank you too for everyone who has commented already. I won’t attempt to offer thoughts on every comment, since I don’t think that’s my place, but if there are specific questions anyone would like to… Read more »
Well said, Ken. If I can identify any critical point in the data collection, it’s the possibility of unconscious or semi-conscious bias in the initial step. There’s no evidence, is there, of any deliberate falsification of figures declared, but where attendances are guesstimates there’s always the risk of wishful thinking or other biases. I would see the most risky estimates as those involving larger crowds; see https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1740-9713.2011.00502.x for a paper about this sort of thing. So if I were asked whether I thought numbers were reliably reported, I think I would say that where there are small numbers they are… Read more »
Once you know a building and the number of seats it contains, it’s possible to do a guesstimate of the number of people present for a large service.I once worked with a priest who would ask ‘how many do you think we had?’ We’d usually agree an approximate number and then pick a very specific number to put in the register! If the register recorded 198 or 203 that meant we’d said ‘about 200’!
I don’t know the standard practice in the UK (or for that matter in other parts of the US), but in my parish, the ushers do an actual count of the attendance (usually during the processional) and post it on a board at the back of the church. This serves two purposes–it means we can keep an accurate record from week to week, and the priest can see it and be certain he has enough hosts to consecrate to distribute to all the congregation.
Fr John Caperon
15 days ago
Martyn Percy’s description of the Church of England as ‘a church addicted to prescriptions and remedies’, afflicted by managerialism, seems just. But his notion that the church should more authentically own and promote its identity as ‘Protestant’ seems misjudged. Clearly, the rejection of papal authority and jurisdiction under Henry VIII, and the monarch’s appropriation both of the possessions of the country’s religious houses and of supremacy over the church as its chief governor, feel like ‘protestant’ actions. But the people remained, the churches remained, the clergy remained, and no-one thought the church was being new-created ab initio. It was being… Read more »
Since the pandemic I have been touring 12 dioceses (two of which are in Wales) in detail, as well as attending services in a number of others. To paraphrase David Voas, my own personal ‘anecdote’ across thousands of churches might now constitute a species of [admittedly flawed] ‘evidence’. Based on what I have seen, there are a few instances of intensive growth (some of which may amount, in part, to the cannibalisation of other churches), but practically everywhere else the pattern appears to be one of remorseless decline up to the point of extinction. The youngest members of the ‘last… Read more »
A noisy revival is the last thing the ’quiet generation’ wants and would probably prefer a quiet death.
Ian Paul makes some interesting observations about growth. I wonder if the C of E stats office dug a little deeper into the numbers, would they find that their trends mirror that of the Diocese of Toronto. We too have experienced atypical growth in the number of Average Sunday Attendees and the number of Identifiable Givers. The variables mutually corroborate one another. When we noticed the significant uptick in 2023 I was careful not to be too ecstatic. After all, it could simply be an anomaly. But now that our 2024 numbers are in, the trend indicates a continued rise… Read more »
Froghole’s remarkable observations shouldn’t be regarded as purely anecdotal but in reality constitute the kind of careful observational qualitative research that makes sense of what’s going on. I hope he will find some way of collating the more detailed notes he no doubt has collected over time and maybe publishing them in some way that will not compromise his own anonymity. Ian Paul’s piece is worthy of careful study–the simple graphs he discusses are very apposite, but it is something of a combination of careful discussion of evidence and the statement of very sincerely held but settled views. The last… Read more »
Very many thanks indeed for your kind comments. I cannot help but think that the claims currently being made by some about ‘growth’ are founded on an artificially low base line: namely the aftermath of the pandemic. One of the things which struck me most forcibly in the two or more years following the end of the final lockdown was the evisceration of worship provision across much of the country. There has been a gradual creep back to pre-2020 provision in some – but by no means all – places, but there are certain forms of provision which have largely… Read more »
Only a few days ago I read the St David’s diocesan newspaper, which was announcing the second stage of their ‘Pruning for Growth’ project. As a visitor to the diocese this was my first contact with the programme, which according to the paper is led by a committee formally known as ‘the Gardening Group’. Personally speaking, it took a lot of understanding, reading it to the end before discovering that it could be summed up as ‘closing churches and amalgamating parishes’. (Forgive me, please, if I’m wrong, but that’s the meaning it conveyed at the close.) Now that is not… Read more »
Sharon seems to be engaging in utter hypocrisy. It is she who is seeking to hollow out the word “equal” to mean “the same”. If I have two children and I help one to be become a high-ranking doctor and the other to become a QC then I have help them “YYY”. What word can we use for YYY when we get rid of the word “equal”, in order to have it mean “the same”. We already have a term for “the same”. It’s “the same”. If you think that women should be able to fill “the same” roles as… Read more »
Kyle, it’s possible to be a thinking Anglican without being an insulting Anglican. Clearly you disagree with Sharon Jagger, but accusing her of ‘utter hypocrisy’ is unacceptable.
‘Can you clarify what you mean by ‘If I have two children and I help one to be become a high-ranking doctor and the other to become a QC then I have help them “YYY.”?
If you don’t like the term ‘utter hypocrisy’ then what term can we use when someone accuses other people of emptying a word of meaning as part of her quest to empty a word of meaning? It should be ‘helped’. If I can’t say I helped them ‘equally’ because we’ve made ‘equally’ mean the same, then what can we say? (One thing I’ve thought of is that by destroying the word ‘equally’ then they don’t have to explain their anti-Christian attitude that views the layman as unequal to a Bushop since it is trivial that the roles are not the… Read more »
You might simply have said, ‘it’s ironic that in your quest to empty the word “equal” of meaning, you’ve accused others of emptying the word of meaning.’ If that’s what you think. When you insult someone in terms like ‘utter hypocrisy’ you weaken your own argument. As for your second point, we are part of a hierarchical church in a hierarchical society. Theologically we believe that all are equal in God’s eyes, and many of us are trying to combat deference, but it’s a matter of fact that on the whole, bishops enjoy higher status in the C of E… Read more »
The founder of Christianity didn’t say to the Pharisees ‘It’s ironic that you are clean on the outside but not on the inside.’ Instead He said … ‘You blind Pharisee’,’You brood of vipers’, ‘You are like whitewashed tombs’ and ‘You hypocrites’.
That didn’t weaken His argument, indeed it was part of the chain of events that led to the salvation of the world. But it does raise the question of how those who follow Him can best debate issues robustly while also following His command to love one another.
Jesus was part of a culture in which hyperbole was a common figure of speech (‘if your eye offends you, pluck it out…’). We Brits are part of a culture which more commonly uses understatement. So a phrase like ‘utter hypocrisy’ arguably has more impact here than it would have done to Jesus’ hearers. Besides, Jesus knew the hearts of those he met, and none of us has that kind of unerring knowledge of people’s motives.
Kyle, I’m afraid I have not a clue what you are talking about.
Women should be able to fill “the same” roles as men.
Happy now, Kyle? [Am I courageous? I would think I was merely stating the obvious!]
I always love Ian Paul’s pieces, they’re so well thought through and considered. I’m sure there is data on this, but I’d be fascinated to see some demographic and regional data on the growth and decline. Where we are in South London, we’ve got an enthusiastic new priest a few years ago, and have now been able to set up a ‘young couples’ group. It’s early days and it’s a bit rough and ready, but there is some evidence here of the quiet revival. The reason I’m curious about this more granular data is that I wonder if the collapse… Read more »
Your final “aside” is interesting. Could you give some more details please to help us dig into this a bit more. Thank you.
What exactly has Starmer said about trans people that they object to? It was the same with Starmer and Gaza – he was accused of saying various things, and not calling for a ceasefire, when the opposite was true, as anybody who could read Labour party statements in late 2023 would be able to tell. Corbynites twist and turn at every junction. I wonder why?
I don’t know man, I think Kier was pretty straight up about this one: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crldey0z00ro.amp
But also, formally irrelevant to the point, which is that there are movements of young people interested in faith who aren’t what one might stereotype. There’s – anecdotally – quite a diverse bunch of people. Now, I think they’re mostly in central London because of central London’s population and resource, but, it suggests that there is a targeted outreach programme that could be run elsewhere.
Starmer literally said Israel had the right to cut off food and water, then rather than apologising denied he ever said it, despite it being on video. He has also refused to recognise Israeli crimes against humanity and take any action beyond mild bleating, while continuing to allow the supply of war material to Israel.
Starmer recently denied that trans women are women, contrary to previous affirmations. And Starmer is responsible, along with Streeting, for swallowing the fatally flawed Cass report, and for the increasing restrictions on trans people’s access to gender affirming care.
Cass’ report is not fatally flawed. It has just been corroborated by the department of HHS’ review in the US, which is even more abrupt and the Karolinska hospital in Sweden.
You’re seriously giving credence to the Trump administration?
Read the statement I linked to below, and tell us what is wrong with it. He fully recognises the death and destruction, and robustly attacks it. Regarding his initial interview with Nick Ferrari, yes, it was in the immediate aftermath, and yes, he was caught off guard, Nick has a tendency to bully, and yes, there may have been a distinction in his mind whether cutting of food and water was a legal or humanitarian issue. But the constant castigaton of the Labour Party position is sickening, and I wonder what the motives are. ‘swallowing the fatally flawed’. Really? Arguing… Read more »
YES
At least you are honest and say what you truly believe. Do you really think there is any way the State of Israel will be destroyed, short of a nuclear war started by Iran, and escalating to world war?
To be clear, you think the State of Israel should cease to exist, and all Jewish people living there should disperse or be killed? In other words, another holocaust?
What are your views in point 10 of Ian Paul’s article
https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/how-to-avoid-being-antisemitic/
I feel pretty safe in saying that nobody here is advocating genocide towards Jews, either by mass murder or expulsion (I wish I could say the same about genocide towards Palestinians. The existence of the State of Israel as currently constituted is not coterminous with the continued presence of Jewish people in Palestine. A free Palestine means free for all the people from the river to the sea, whether Jew or gentile. That cannot happen while an ethno-nationalist state occupies most of it.
I fear this may be an optimistic viewpoint which has no support in history. I wish it were true, but not in my lifetime.
Matthew has clearly stated (unless I am misrepresenting) that he want Israel to be destroyed. I did ask him to clarify, but he has not (yet) responded. So I am not so convinced by your first sentence.
What did you think of Ian Paul’s article and discussions therein?
As is usual, Ian Paul’s article is a bubbling mess of strawmen and dishonesty. Point 10 in particular both lies about the meaning of “from the river to the sea” and the definition of genocide, not to mention the usual whataboutery, to distract attention from Israel’s crimes.
Ok. That’s your view. What about Anton’s comments on the same blog? ‘Lies’ is a very strong accusation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide The key phrase (in my layman’s understanding) is any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, and from wiki The definition of genocide generates controversy whenever a new case arises and debate erupts as to whether or not it qualifies as a genocide. Sociologist Martin Shaw writes, “Few ideas are as important in public debate, but in few cases are the meaning and scope of a key idea less clearly agreed.” To be honest, whether acts… Read more »
https://labour.org.uk/updates/press-releases/keir-starmer-statement-israel-gaza/
Not the impression you would get if you listened to the SNP leader in Westminster, Stephen Flynn.
A few observations on the Church Growth / Ian Paul piece…. First I’d agree with Froghole’s scepticism with regard to quite what this data means. Experience in my own church mirrors that reported in the initial Statistics for Mission data (i.e. a small rise in attendance) but (locally and generally) A) the changes are very small- one or two per cent . Yes there are two years now of some small upward movement. I still think it’s too soon to crack out the champagne. B) I’d question how robust the data is; it’s incomplete (not all parishes send in returns)… Read more »
Should we, as a church, be relentlessly focussed on growing and not declining? Making growth the sine qua non, we’re in real danger of forgetting what we are. I suspect there are some unspoken theological assumptions behind the question. My answer would be yes, for two reasons. The first is missional – Jesus Christ tells us to make disciples of all nations. The second is based on sotieriology – If we believe that one needs to believe in Christ to be saved, similar to what the Apostle Peter teaches in Acts 4:12 or Christ speaking of Himself as being the… Read more »
Of course mission and soteriology matter; they are not simply synonyms for ‘growth’. ‘Growth’ is not the sine qua non of Christianity: we’re not some sort of spiritual pyramid scheme. Whereas proclaiming the word is of course part of what Christians do, following Jesus is much, much richer than that. Look at the rest of Matthew’s gospel: Jesus calls us to holiness. Growth is a tool to serve the faith, not the be all and end all of of it. It’s not there (in any substantial way) in the historical formularies of the church. Striving for growth, as you in… Read more »
I’m not sure I fully agree given the two theological assumptions I’m bringing. If knowledge of Christ is essential for salvation and if Christ is the only name in which salvation is found then numerical growth is hugely important. Particularly if we consider judgement also. You do touch on something though. Growth isn’t solely numerical. It is also in depth. We want to live holy lives and encourage others to do so. Making disciples doesn’t mean we stop with conversion. We want to see sanctification in the life of the believer but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t seek to share… Read more »
What benefits do you think that Christianity brings in this life – that, say, Islam does not bring? Are Christians happier, healthier or even wealthier than non Christians? Are the marriages of Christians more secure than the marriages of non-Christians? Evidence suggests not. So what is it that are you selling?
Could you offer some insight as to where you’re coming from with this question? I’d start by saying that I don’t think this is about what I’m selling but about what the gospel is. Here’s what I think Christianity has that Islam doesn’t have. – The salvation that Christ has brought through His death and resurrection and the consequences of what that means. Namely the assurance that our sins are forgiven by faith in Christ. Islam doesn’t offer this. From what I can see it offers works based salvation and a hope the scales are balanced in my favour view… Read more »
Thanks, Gareth for putting it so clearly and concisely. You do it a lot better than I could. As a simple point, to answer Maureen’s comments I’d suggest you read the second part of ‘Pilgrim’s Progress’, in which a variation of her question ‘Are Christians happier, healthier or even wealthier than non Christians?’ crops up, and is very robustly answered. NO. We are not exempt from the problems which are common to all mankind (unless of course you believe the prosperity gospel nonsense) Our marriages may fail, as may our finances and businesses. We are most assuredly not promised health,… Read more »
Perhaps you might find the Vatican Decree on other faiths Nostra Aetate helpful.
‘There is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or fathers or mother or father or children or lands for my sake or the gospel who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, and with them persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.’
A Christianity which is believed because it brings happiness, health or wealth is, in my opinion, no Christianity. It is a travesty. I emphasise the word ‘because’.
The Sermon on the Mount is maybe a good place to start.
It’s true?
That is the fourth useless answer I have received. Let me try again. Putting aside any question of my eternal destiny, that is, what might happen to me when I die, please tell me what benefits Christianity might bring me in this life.
Maureen – don’t you think that’s a touch rude when people have provided very careful answers to you? If possible I’d appreciate an answer to the question I raised to you in my comment. As explained already – I think I’ve given a good answer on how Christianity differs from Islam. I also think knowledge of our salvation in Christ does have clear practical implications including on our marriages (I’d invite you to look up what I mentioned on divorce rates for practicing Christians). The biggest difference I think the gospel makes is resilience in the face of suffering. Having… Read more »
Hatred and persecution? You will find little in the New Testament on any benefits Christianity might bring you, although I am the least of biblical or theological scholars here. BTW, if you think of conversion to Christianity because of the benefits it will bring when you die, think again. That is a false conversion.
Jesus in fact teaches in Matthew 25.31 – 46 that belief in him or anything else is irrelevant. God, we are told, judges us on how we treat other people, not on what doctrines we subscribe to.
For a more in depth take on the parable of the sheep and the goats I recommend this post on Ian Paul’s blog: https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/the-parable-of-the-sheep-and-the-goats-in-matthew-25/ A few thoughts otherwise: – What does Jesus mean when He speaks of His brothers and sisters? (Matthew 12:48-50 says His disciples are). So the parable is about how we’ve aligned ourselves with other believers and how we’ve aligned ourselves with Christ. – The parable is judgement for the fruit of faith. I.E it is a parable concerning sanctification. All believers who are justified will be sanctified in Christ. – We need to read Scripture holistically… Read more »
Ian Paul frequently claims that churches that hold a traditional view on ss relationships are growing and that inclusive/’liberal’ churches are not. I questioned this on his blog site a few years ago and he challenged me to give evidence of an inclusive church that was growing because it was inclusive. (Now conservatives also need to show that their churches are growing specifically because young people (rather improbably) are attracted to faith that is opposed to ss relationships. I have yet to see any). Well it is not difficult. I am just back from a few days away with some… Read more »
“He simply claimed the growth was for different reasons”
How wearying.
It’s pretty much a variant of the fundamental attribution error, but with theological characteristics replacing personal ones.’We are growing because of our theology; you are growing for another reason’.
Which is the church that hosts the Pride event please David?
https://stjamesandemmanuel.org/
These statistics are not garnered by independent auditors who go around counting people in church on Sunday, but from the churches own reporting, and, as any archdeacon will tell you, whatever a vicar says his typical Sunday attendance is needs to be halved to obtain a realistic number. Froghole is a kind of independent auditor, and his reports should be given greater credibility, in my opinion, than what the Bible Society has published.
I totally agree with the comment about Froghole’s reports. But one thing about the Statistics for Mission exercise is that the same sort of exercise is carried out every year, so unless there is some reason that the figures are becoming more (or less) biased, the assessment of trends still makes sense. The smooth behaviour over time (with the recent disruptive effect of the pandemic) also gives assurance of this.
“Whatever a vicar says his typical Sunday attendance is needs to be halved to obtain a realistic number”. Well, I am a church minister and I am very careful to be accurate in my counting. I know that our local Ministry Area leader (CinW) is, as well.
One of the benefits of being a long-term minister in a parish was knowing the regular congregation well. My habit for the last fifteen years or so before my retirement was that immediately after the last service of the morning I would go through the parish list, write down everyone who had been present that day at our services, and get an accurate count. This meant the only number I had to remember was the number of strangers – or regular non-list visitors – who had been present. These two figures gave me the total for the day. I noticed… Read more »
I don’t think that Froghole would have any motive for under reporting the numbers though. Perhaps he is just not seeing the ones hidden in galleries or behind pillars or lying down in the pews.
Matthew, the statement I quoted from you wasn’t about Froghole’s reporting, but about the reporting of others – and the general claim was that clergy exaggerate their statistics. I disagree with that generalization.
On the topic of attendance statistics… As the person responsible for calculating the figures, thank you to everyone who provided the information. The dataset to which I have access includes information from over 90% of Church of England churches, which is the highest it has been in my time. I have an approach with which I am satisfied for estimating to fill in the gaps. Thank you too for everyone who has commented already. I won’t attempt to offer thoughts on every comment, since I don’t think that’s my place, but if there are specific questions anyone would like to… Read more »
Well said, Ken. If I can identify any critical point in the data collection, it’s the possibility of unconscious or semi-conscious bias in the initial step. There’s no evidence, is there, of any deliberate falsification of figures declared, but where attendances are guesstimates there’s always the risk of wishful thinking or other biases. I would see the most risky estimates as those involving larger crowds; see https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1740-9713.2011.00502.x for a paper about this sort of thing. So if I were asked whether I thought numbers were reliably reported, I think I would say that where there are small numbers they are… Read more »
Once you know a building and the number of seats it contains, it’s possible to do a guesstimate of the number of people present for a large service.I once worked with a priest who would ask ‘how many do you think we had?’ We’d usually agree an approximate number and then pick a very specific number to put in the register! If the register recorded 198 or 203 that meant we’d said ‘about 200’!
I don’t know the standard practice in the UK (or for that matter in other parts of the US), but in my parish, the ushers do an actual count of the attendance (usually during the processional) and post it on a board at the back of the church. This serves two purposes–it means we can keep an accurate record from week to week, and the priest can see it and be certain he has enough hosts to consecrate to distribute to all the congregation.
Martyn Percy’s description of the Church of England as ‘a church addicted to prescriptions and remedies’, afflicted by managerialism, seems just. But his notion that the church should more authentically own and promote its identity as ‘Protestant’ seems misjudged. Clearly, the rejection of papal authority and jurisdiction under Henry VIII, and the monarch’s appropriation both of the possessions of the country’s religious houses and of supremacy over the church as its chief governor, feel like ‘protestant’ actions. But the people remained, the churches remained, the clergy remained, and no-one thought the church was being new-created ab initio. It was being… Read more »