Giles Fraser UnHerd Happy Easter, losers
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Church of England campaign group attitudes to trans, intersex and non-binary people
Ian Gomersall A Retired Rector’s Reflections Putting Chrism at the centre
Mark Clavier Well-Tempered Beyond the Scaffolding
“What the Church in Wales’s Harries Report Missed and Why It Still Matters”
Towards the end of Ian Gomersall’s piece, there’s a delightful typo, “Scared Chrism”. Yes, that’s the sadness of it. Even at what should be a uniting service, some clergy can’t bring themselves to attend. Tragic division is on show.
I believe that when Graham Leonard was Archdeacon of Hampstead and did a preachment at St Paul’s, the service booklet declared him Archbishop of Hampstead.
Hampstead is one of those places where you might find people who think they deserve their own archbishop.
I have mentioned in several of my posts in TA Christ Church St Laurence in Sydney. Rectors of that have been dubbed ‘Archbishop of Railway Square’. A history of Christ Church St Laurence by J. Spooner has that as its title:
https://www.biblio.com/book/archbishops-railway-square-history-christ-church/d/1497958681?srsltid=AfmBOoqzFI4PR2_jzxucZm-bqboIcRkSkaHCR3zx9pnis11ALCwJfQqQ
I couldn’t help noticing that the title of the book is listed by the bookseller as “The Archbishops Of Railway Square: A History of Christ Church, St Laurence Sydney.” The correct name of the church is Christ Church St Laurence, as you have written (no comma; the church has a dual dedication). A comma would be correct before Sydney. I will confess to once thinking that Christ Church must be located in a suburb called St Laurence. Sunday High Mass from CCSL can be found on YouTube: Excellent liturgy, preaching and music. Always a good size congregation. There is an… Read more »
I think that what you ‘confess to once thinking’ is pretty well correct. Anyway, I have believed it for decades. I think that before the railway station was built across from the east side of the church in Pitt Street, the area was known as St Laurence or possibly St Laurence Fields. The place name St Laurence fell into disuse amongst Sydneysiders to be replaced by Railway Square.
You are correct that the area was indeed known at one time as St Laurence, but St Laurence was also the ecclesiastic parish. Christ Church was the original title of the church; St Laurence of Rome was adopted as patron nearly 150 years ago. Two banners are carried in procession, acknowledging the dual dedication: one for Christ Church, one for St Laurence. Every High Church “extra” is part of the liturgy: Asperges every Sunday, bountiful incense; aural confession offered; the altar is away from the wall so Mass is celebrated facing the people. The Celebrant wears a cope; chasubles are… Read more »
Have you read ‘John Hope of Christ Church St Laurence’ by L.C. Rodd (Alpha Books, NSW, 1972)? It is the biography of John Hope, Rector of Christ Church St Laurence from 1926 to 1964. I bought my copy at the SPCK Bookshop in Canterbury in 2007.
No, but I did order The Archbishops of Railway Square from Biblio. My prize purchase of ACA literature was Peter Carnley’s The structure of resurrection belief from a used book outlet in the UK. I had looked for it for a long time, even on visits to Australia. To my surprise, the book’s jacket was stuffed with letters written to and from Carnley with the publisher and others discussing the book while it was being edited. We are very off topic, but I couldn’t resist boasting about that unexpected cache!
Interesting.
A little information about the author of the book might be of interest, Richard. Although my first communion in Australia was made at Christ Church St Laurence in January 1978, I was not a regular attender there until about a decade later. It was then that I knew (though not well) Deacon John Spooner, as he was known. Christ Church St Laurence once had a secondary school called St Laurence College and I think John had once been a pupil there, though of that I am not certain. He sometimes used to preach at the 9-30 Sunday Eucharist at Christ… Read more »
Did you mention on another thread Bishop Lash of Bombay? I am afraid I am not able to find your comment now.
Yes, I did. It is in Opinion for 9th April 2025. A response to this will be most welcome, but allow me a few days to catch up with it as I am about to set off for a pilgrimage to Walsingham.
If you want to talk about Bishop Lash fire away.
All these titles mean nothing to most of the parish. Vicar/rector/minister/father (terms understood interchangeably) and bishop are about all most people understand or care about. Archbishop maybe. Pope obviously. But the laity are pretty apathetic about most of the titles.
Why do you dislike clergy so much?
I like clergy. It’s self-importance I’m not a fan of.
It’s not just self-importance you don’t like. It’s the need of clergy to celebrate the Eucharist to which you object. If you like clergy – but not their titles – why don’t you accept their main function (apart from preaching)?
Surely the main function of a priest is pastoral care? Jesus told Peter to ‘feed my sheep, tend my flock’. Preaching, teaching, and administering the sacraments are all part of that overarching function.
All depends how you interpret that though doesn’t it? I’ve known many people from the ‘Catholic’ end of the candle who would argue that that all starts with the Sacrifice of the Mass, and everything else flows from that, pastoral or otherwise. Indeed, none more pastoral than that. I tend to that belief myself fwiw.
It’s a bit niche these days in the wider flow of Anglicanism, but it’s still a mainstream interpretation IME.
There are Reverend, Very Reverend, Right Reverend and Most Reverend. I think it was Robert Runcie who coined ‘Increasingly Reverend’.
Phillip Jensen (not often quoted on TA) once said “I find the people who call me reverend the most revere me the least!”
Thank you Neil.
Many a true word has been spoken (or written) in error as well as in jest!
Graham Leonard was once approached about becoming Archbishop of Perth, Western Australia. I don’t know whether he was formally nominated or whether the electors were just making informal enquiries. More details in the Peart-Binns biography of Leonard.
Whoops! I like your point Shamus, but you will forgive me, I hope, for correcting the typo!
Absolutely! Thank you for your article. Happy Easter.
It’s hardly a uniting service when separate services are held for those who don’t recognise the ordination of their female colleagues.
Well, yes, I agree. I should have put “can’t bring themselves to attend or are at a separate service”. Part of the tragic division.
It’s depressing but not unexpected that there’s a new LGB group trying to further marginalise trans and intersex Christians. I share Colin’s concern. We are already struggling with a Government intending to treat us in a way the European Court of Human Rights expressly prohibited. That human rights are now being ignored ought to be a major concern to everyone. Today it might be trans and intersex people but tomorrow it could be any other minority group. Once a precedent has been set, history shows these things escalate.
This is clearly a backlash against the Scottish Parliament under the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon attempting to push changing gender by self-declaration into law, and the consequent furore when it was discovered that a man convicted of sexual assaults on women, without any gender reassignment surgery (so biologically a man) had been placed in a woman’s prison when he declared himself “she”. Women’s prisons, changing rooms, refuges have to be safe spaces from those who are biologically men. I think the UK judgement went too far, and transwomen who have had gender reassignment surgery should be (unless they have a… Read more »
The problem of “toilet facilities” and “changing rooms” could be solved by just having unisex facilities with cubicles for those who want them. I don’t care what gender people are or want to assume, what tackle they have or with whom and how they want to share it in private. Surely nobody has a “human right” to a facility from which people different from themselves must be excluded?
“Surely nobody has a “human right” to a facility from which people different from themselves must be excluded?” This sentence makes no sense. Applied logically, it would mean men could enter women’s changing rooms, women’s toilets etc etc. at will. Women’s rights to safety and their own spaces has been hard won. When the first woman MP went to the Commons, there was no woman’s toilets. In 18th– and 19th-century London there was an almost total absence of public lavatories for women; women would have been forced to rely on bourdaloues (the female equivalent of a chamber pot) or hold… Read more »
The gender recognition reform bill, while supported by the SNP, had cross party support and was largely uncontroversial at the time of passing. It suffered by English tories saw a combined opportunity to give Scotland a kicking and stoke a culture war at the same time.
Kate, Depressing is the word, or perhaps I would say it’s desperately sad. It’s sad first of all that an LGB campaigning group would seek to advance their own interests by separating themselves from other parts of the sexuality campaign, to avoid the “backlash, confusion, and risks”. It’s also sad to see the names of those apparently supporting this campaign. I had thought better of them. And sad most of all because of the lack of understanding and knowledge about gender issues shown by the statement. This statement shows a total lack of understanding about how gender works. Gender is… Read more »
Why do you represent people who disagree with you on gender as wanting to reject such people? I don’t see any evidence for this blanket statement. In my opinion it will do nothing to promote dialogue. One of the things that we can learn from the late Pope is the importance of trying to understand other points of view even when we disagree.
William, thanks for your post. I take your point about trying to understand other points of view so I will try to explain more carefully to see if we can understand each other. I took as my starting point Colin’s cited phrase “ideas which replace the biological reality of the two sexes with self-defined, gender identities.” To me this seemed to represent a common view that the only thing that counts is biological sex (or more correctly, anatomical sex). Gender is portrayed as a self-defined free choice, and should not be counted as important. I was trying to make the… Read more »
I saw an image on Bluesky. (I can’t find it to share). It showed two toilet signs. The top one from American segregation – Whites to the left, Blacks to the right. The second had Cis to the left, Trans to the Right. It IS segregation and attempting to separate LGB and T is just another example of segregation. You would think Christians could see that, but obviously not.
thanks Kate, I agree. I know from the scientific research published alongside LLF that because I am a homosexual man, then parts of my supposedly male brain function more like the brain of a heterosexual woman than the brain of a heterosexual man. So where does that put me on the T or I part of the LGBTIA acronym? These things can’t be separated out neatly. Incidentally, about a year ago you linked to some scientific research suggesting that transgender identities may be in some way linked to intrauterine processes before birth. I have been looking for the paper recently… Read more »
Was that for real, or a cartoon/AI image? I have difficulty understanding it if for real.
ps. the analogy of white/black vs. cis/trans hardly holds up to analysis.
I think what you are seeing is increasing skepticism about just this claim, or its utility in comprehending anything specific.
Hence this comment below.
“I definitely cannot affiliate to an LGBTQIA+ ‘Coalition’. It’s a category without agreed boundaries or content including so many heterodox, sub-Christian and in some cases frankly contradictory ideas that I’m unable to make sense of it let alone put my name to it.”
In my view, it was always going to come to this.
Anglican priest, Many thanks for taking the time comment. My involvement on thinking Anglicans is quite considered. I know that there are very many people on TA who are puzzled by what I say, or simply reject my arguments, or are sceptical about the claims. I am realistic about that fact. There are many people, including I suspect yourself, who will never be persuaded by anything I say. But I deliberately use the hospitality of TA to reach those other people in the audience, often women or those who are LGBTQIA, who tell me privately that they appreciate what I… Read more »
Thank you. I think the personalist dimension isn’t as dominant a reality as you do, philosophically considered. We are not who we wish or desire ourselves to be — I am not a Crow Indian and I would not invest a lot of empirical truth in minority examples bubbling up from the tohuwavohu of earthly welter. Our lives are hid with God in Christ. The story I would write about myself would never be the true story of who I am. I have just finished a book that seeks to establish this conviction as the truest account of Christian identity.… Read more »
Just one quick comment before I need to move on. Ref your penultimate sentence. I agree. I think that if one is fortunate enough to born into a life where one’s own personal existence matches the values and assumptions of the world around you, then what you call the “personalist dimension” can fade into the background and can be assumed to be unimportant. One can live in a world where the values of the culture seem like absolute common sense, or absolute truth. But if one is born into a world where there is a mismatch, being born homosexual or… Read more »
I suppose one obvious question is why would there be a division between LGB and LGBT etc. if it were basically a matter of “if one is born into a world where there is a mismatch.” Wouldn’t both of these groups line up within this theoretical category? And yet the point of the LGB position–if I understand it; it is the topic of this thread and significant disagreements below–is to see a further distinction as necessary. Why would this be, given the framework you assume here?
I think you are right that members of these two distinct groups both have the sense of mismatch discussed above, finding oneself living a life that clashes with the majority position. But if one has that sense of mismatch then either one accepts the values of the dominant group and lives with a sense of dislocation and restriction. Or one goes on a long intellectual journey to seek to understand that mismatch, and to explain one’s life to oneself and others. That’s what Colin Coward and I have been doing, and to some extent sharing the working out of our… Read more »
As you will guess, we are now being introduced to a bewildering array of positions whose only unifying factor appears to be “whatever obtained in the realm of biological gender and marriage heretofore, we aren’t.” Ms Charman below is the kind of individual I wondered about, who writes, “I definitely cannot affiliate to an LGBTQIA+ ‘Coalition’. It’s a category without agreed boundaries or content including so many heterodox, sub-Christian and in some cases frankly contradictory ideas that I’m unable to make sense of it let alone put my name to it. I’m much more likely to affiliate to the more… Read more »
Anglican priest, This debate can appear chaotic and confusing, but I think there is some logic to what is going on. Yes there is a “bewildering array of positions” with people saying “whatever obtained in the realm of biological gender and marriage heretofore, we aren’t.” But that is reality. There actually is a bewildering variety of ways of being sexual or gendered, both in humanity and in the natural world. The problem is that, within the Christian sphere of influence, such thinking has been rejected for much of the last 2000 years. The idea of sex as a simple binary,… Read more »
How much of this contemporary discussion about identity needs Jesus Christ at all? Is it its own kind of religion? Certainly many people inside the identity train would say Jesus Christ is irrelevant or problematic. Is there anything about being a Christian that is deeper and more fundamental than the acronym train (for lack of a better metaphor)? As far as ‘chaotic’ is concerned, there are people responding here who find the LGBTI+ etc reality not just unsustainable but harmful. See below. “Many of us believe that gender ideology is actively harming gay and lesbian youths, hence the emphasis on… Read more »
Thank you for your observations. With our respective backgrounds it was probably never likely that you and I would agree, but I am grateful that we could discuss the issue with some degree of respect and amicability.
You are most welcome. And as well for you.
Are you not going to engage the issues being posed here?
Respectfully, that sounds like there is no substantive answer but rather a continuation of self-reference, in the face of contention — in this case, within your own camp.
I believe the TA forum needs to have more here.
The questions in the previous notes are not being engaged.
Sorry, It’s not a backing away from a discussion, but more a case of prioritising time. A few days ago I had some spare time to engage in the discussion, which I valued, but more recently pastoral, family and research duties have come forward, especially needing to respond to people affected by the transgender court case in the UK. However, I am working on a few YouTube videos on this very subject, and when they go up on line later this year they should give my answer to some of the very valid questions you have posed. You are right… Read more »
Thank you.
I found this newspaper account sobering in terms of moving into a world that seems to be very real, but also is hard to place in a context of Christian belief and faith — not least because it doesn’t appear to be relevant at all.
The lesbians who feel pressured to have sex and relationships with trans women – BBC News
There has been a genuine problem, in that some predatory men have taken advantage of gender self-ID to invade women only spaces. E.g. the Darlington nurse who claims to identify as a woman, allegedly hangs around in the female nurses’ changing room to ogle them while they dress and undress, and boasts about trying to get his live-in girlfriend pregnant. The cis female nurses, some of whom are survivors of sexual abuse by males, understandably find this very upsetting but have had no recourse, up til now. There have been a number of similar cases in different settings. I don’t… Read more »
Colin Coward’s ‘single umbrella’ strategy strikes me as mistaken. His logic seems to be that the bigger the umbrella, the more people will unite beneath it, the louder their voices will be heard and the greater the prospect of achieving their aims. In practice the opposite has consistently happened. The more ‘letters’ are added to the LGB acronym, the less clarity there is about who is being described or what their beliefs and objectives are. This makes affiliation more difficult and increases the likelihood of people either peeling off into subgroups that more securely reflect their convictions or else disassociating… Read more »
You are failing to identify what you call structural discrimination. A lot of churches won’t marry trans people; won’t let them serve in any capacity; might not even let them use the toilet they need to use. Trans people are vastly more marginalised than either women or gay and lesbian people. But that’s missing the point. The Kingdom of God is open to everyone who follows Jesus. It doesn’t matter whether they are white or black, gay or straight, cis or trans. The Church, as the representative of Jesus, needs to fully model that. That’s why a big umbrella is… Read more »
One aspect of theological liberalism that I feel is lacking is what we mean when we speak of inclusion, included for what? I’d say that Christ calls to include everyone, He wants to see as many people as possible with Him on the last day. What does coming to Christ mean for people in the gospel? Typically repentance and sacrifice. We’re called to take up our cross and follow Him. We’ve got several examples of what that looks like in Scripture. When Christ called Zacchaeus in Luke 14 we see that he gave up extorting people and gave his wealth… Read more »
Is a same-sex married couple welcome in your conservative church, or do they have to repent of their wedding before being acceptable in your sight? Obviously God accepts them in a liberal church. But your judgemental views might make them leave your church unless they repent of doing what they think is not wrong.
What did the rich young ruler have to do to follow Christ? Give up his love of money by giving what He had to the poor. Zacchaeus made the sacrifice needed in Luke 19 (correction from the above) to become a disciple in the next chapter by repaying those he defrauded and by giving to the poor. Jesus longed for both to be included, one accepted the cost and the other rejected it. It’s correct to say that Jesus didn’t simply affirm their sin. Was Christ judgemental because the rich young ruler walked away? Even the most conservative of evangelicals… Read more »
I know all that. But why don’t you answer my question? You cite the rich man who was asked to give up his wealth. Presumably you think a same-sex married man must give up his husband. Otherwise you wouldn’t have drawn the comparison.
I’d like to figure out what we mean by inclusion first. Inclusion into what? As far as I’m aware even in the most conservative churches people are welcome and most evangelicals long for all people everywhere to turn to Christ. But what does that look like? Biblically Jesus tells us that in order to be a disciple one has to count the cost and pick up ones cross to follow after Him. The rich young ruler went away sorrowful, was that because Jesus was exclusive? Or was that because he didn’t want to accept the cost of discipleship. We can… Read more »
My thinking about this is becoming clearer all the time, thanks in no small part to interactions on this blog, for which my gratitude. I definitely cannot affiliate to an LGBTQIA+ ‘Coalition’. It’s a category without agreed boundaries or content including so many heterodox, sub-Christian and in some cases frankly contradictory ideas that I’m unable to make sense of it let alone put my name to it. I’m much more likely to affiliate to the more focused ‘LGB Christians’ although I’m not convinced about the ‘B’ which to me is not the same sort of thing as the other two.… Read more »
Yes, let’s be radically inclusive. Personally I would not exclude people from the “Kingdom of God” because they don’t “follow Jesus”.
I feel I need to point out that LGB Christians actively promote and support people who would describe themselves as ‘gender critical’. A glance at the resources page on their website should give you an indication as to where their priorities lie. For transparency I am a trans woman, but if you intend to support them I urge you to take a look and consider if this is what you want to sign up to.
Nicola, thanks for your comment. I’m preparing to respond to several of the comments posted above but you give me the opportunity to make a quick point here. People need to read everything on the LGB Christian website and note the language used, as you have done. The phrase ‘gender critical’ givers me a huge trigger warning, as does their use of the phrase ‘same-sex attracted people’. This is the phrase used by the conservative evangelicals who are members of the Living Out group. It means identifying as a homosexual man who has a literal belief in the Bible and… Read more »
Nicola, I’m not at present a member of any campaigning organizations, not even WATCH, although I have been in the past. This is partly due to the shifting nature of manifestos and resulting unclearness around what any of them currently stands for. I’m waiting for the coffee to clear before I consider taking that step again. I am interested in rejoining an organisation that promotes gay rights which I have long upheld and I hope to continue to do so. This includes the right to select partners based on biological sex and get married to them if one chooses. As… Read more »
Amen to that.
Thank you, I find your comments very insightful.
The Chrism Mass is mentioned in the Apostolic Tradition around 200 A.D., describing a ceremony during the Easter Vigil where two holy oils were blessed and one was consecrated. It is not surprising in today’s self-savvy culture that the photos are of participants and not the oils. Politicians were taking selfies at Nelson Mandela’s funeral, and the clergy are not above this. I would also like to see more focus on the oils and the solemnity of the occasion, which is lost when the focus is taken away from it.
I too wonder about the renewal of ordination vows. In those (few?) dioceses where the distinctive nature of each order is modelled by priests and deacons gathering around their bishop in their respective orders, the rite does at least try to hold together both corporate presbyteral and diaconal identities. Yet in those dioceses where clergy and lay ministers sit in the their own ministry teams with all affirming their commitment to ministry, what may appear to be pastoral comes at the cost of ecclesial coherence. This latter practice, it seems to me, makes a case for celebrating the rite solely… Read more »
In my diocese in western Canada, if I start out in Jasper on the west side of the diocese, set my cruise control for 100 km/h, and head east, it will take me roughly seven hours to reach the eastern side of the diocese. For some of my colleagues on the edges of the diocese, driving in for a chrism mass on Maundy Thursday is an all day commitment. In the busiest week of the year. I would love it if it was held at a different time, and I would always attend. But i must admit I rarely attended… Read more »
Mark Clavier’s article makes for interesting, if unsurprising, reading. It is one an increasing number of Diocesan hierarchs should read, along with the Report he cites, as two of the key elements of the CiW strategy – ministry areas and focal leadership – have found their way into multiple diocesan strategies in the C of E. That in itself is unsurprising as the principles they are grounded in – circumstances demanding licensed ministers work across several parishes/parishes work together and each church community having an identifiable leader to whom they relate – are not new or revolutionary in any way.… Read more »
Mark Clavier and Realist have both hit the nail on the head. ‘Local Ministry Areas’ are generally known in the Church in Wales as ”misery areas”. It is significant that since their introduction the Church in Wales has being keeping all membership figures secret. It is also worth noting that the original stategy envisaged a reduction in the number of dioceses in the Church in Wales. This part of the strategy has not been implemented – indeed the number of archdeacons has actually increased. The Church in Wales is a kind or Ruritanian army, enormously overstaffed with generals and colonels… Read more »
The Church in Wales has not “put all its eggs in the basket of…theological liberalism”. Some of us have watched with unease as a lot of resources have been directed towards a partnership with the CRT, resulting in well-staffed and generously funded HTB style plants and resource churches at a time other churches are struggling.
Indeed so, James, this being the ‘reciprocal’ element of the poor strategy exchange between the CiW and the C of E. Such a situation can also be found in many C of E Dioceses – not exclusively evangelical in church tradition, but the same basic idea. This creates the image of success through pouring money in creating an unsustainable economy of plants and resource churches for the short/medium term. All would be well(ish…) if they became sustainable. But very few of them can sustain their resource-heavy staffing and programmes once the ‘trust fund’ money runs out, leaving yet more struggling… Read more »
I don’t think this is an illusion and there are sound business principles behind new church plants in new buildings.
1. Investing in good staff is surely always a good thing, and
2. planting new Churches in modern buildings, which are cheaper to run makes perfect sense.
Both represent a good stewardship of limited resources.
”Sound business principles” Isn’t that exactly the way of thinking that Mark Clavier was complaining about in his piece on the Harries report? The lack of any coherent theological thinking in the Church in Wales – and elsewhere? – is revealed by the enthusiastic adoption of anything that seems to promise growth – whether it be the cult of managerialism or the enthusiasm for church plants and resource churches. James thinks that this enthusiasm shows that I am wrong to speak of ”a theological liberalism that is little more than open secularism”. My response would be that what we are… Read more »
Now I would completely agree with you about the buildings, except that in more than one diocese, for more than one plant, a historic listed building has been purchased and very lightly converted. Does the C of E REALLY need more historic listed buildings? As to staff, I agree in part. But all the projects I have examined have sustainability as an aim beyond the initial SDF funding (or whatever source). None of them has realised that aim and been able to maintain the same staffing level, and others’ research has shown that most of them have either declined in… Read more »
Colin presumably does not object to disabled, trans people or asexuals to organise and advocate on their own, is it only LGBs who are to be subsumed into the acronym and have no voice of their own? The recent Supreme Court judgement states categorically that day men and women have the right to single-sex associations (Equality Act, part7). Does he not support that?
Except that LGB Christians (which I note you work with) are not just focussing on advancing the rights of those in same sex relationships, but actively campaigning against trans people. It strikes me that you spend more time taking a shot at trans people than working to support lesbian, gay or bi people! By all means advocate specifically on issues that only affect lesbian, gay and bi people and no one else, that’s not the problem. It’s being a group that specifically advocates against trans people that attracts pushback. At present LGB Christians sound more like anti-trans Christians. If you… Read more »
Could you give an example of us ‘actively campaigning against trans people’ ?
Looking at your website, the emphasis on being anti-trans rather than pro-LGB stands out. Within your values the anti-trans theme is there, but co-equal with the pro-LGB stance (e.g. the third bullet point of your values). Your statement of conviction is good, in that it focusses just on the pro-LGB part of your mission and makes no reference to gender identity. However, if you click on the “resources” section, the anti-trans theme is to the fore. The first two blocks of links are about gender critical views and detransitioning stories, then there are a set of websites which are largely… Read more »
Dave G, having read your thoughts, and Nicola has also encouraged me to, I have now visited LGB Christians website. And I agree with you that there is significant content on there around transgender related topics. I’m hardly amazed by this as their mission statement, which Colin quoted at the top of his article, is to ‘defend the rights of same sex attracted people in the face of increasing backlash, confusion, and risks caused by ideas which replace the biological reality of the two sexes with self-defined, gender identities.’ I’d call that a fairly salty way of putting things but… Read more »
Is there really a problem with LGB people being told they need to find trans people attractive? I haven’t come across that before so it strikes me as a bit of a red herring. As a straight man there are some women I find attractive, some women I don’t, but I don’t feel undermined as a straight man for that, neither does it weaken my support for equality for women. By all means campaign for equality for lesbian, gay and bisexual people in the church. But you don’t improve LGB rights by going after trans people, it just causes division… Read more »
And yes, there are problems when straight men who transition identify as lesbians and, conversely, straight women who inject testosterone identify as gay men; the recent Supreme Court judgement on single sex spaces and organisations has demonstrated that these problems are widespread. If being pro-trans means swallowing gender identity theory hook, line and sinker, then there’s a lot of convincing to be done because society at large is not having it, neither are we. It is regressive and homophobic.
‘These problems are widespread’. Really? Evidence? The real problem is the amount of nonsense and noise about very little. I may live a sheltered life, but I don’t think I have ever met anybody who is trans, and I have worked with thousands of people. I realise some trans people are not visually obvious. Same way LGB people may not be visually obvious. What I cannot understand is the volume of words about trans people. Just let them live their lives, without prejudice or judgement. I wish we could go back to ‘don’t frighten the horses’ approach to sex [joke].… Read more »
With regards to trans people, I think perhaps you have lived a sheltered (or blinkered) life Nigel!
Not really. My problem was with the word ‘widespread’. I don’t believe it. What percentage of the UK population has undergone medical treatment on the route towards trans? How many wish to start that road? It may be 10,000, I have no idea, but as a percentage of the population it is minute. I agree that different professions attract different kinds of people. My main industry, oil and gas engineering, probably has fewer gay people. In social work, maybe more. But I do have a life outside of my profession. I have met many bisexual women. Fewer lesbian. Even fewer… Read more »
Maybe a better estimate is 4910 ?
Or ‘we don;t know’.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b3a478240f0b64603fc181b/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf
The fact that the Supreme Court has made a judgement is nothing to do with whether or not the problems are widespread.
Problems for whom? I am a gay man and, while not trans myself, I have both dated and experience attraction to gay men who are. I have no idea where homophobia is supposed to come into it, but describing these gay men as “straight women who inject testosterone” is pretty nasty and rather gives your game away.
Dave G, you seem so genuinely surprised that I have to believe you when you say you were unaware of this issue. Ironically some of the resources you’ve noticed on LGB Christians website might help you understand it. I share your commitment to supporting people to live with a transgender identity. Although I’ve been a critic of the giant rainbow umbrella and think it was well overdue to snap a spoke or two I also agree that open conflict between groups with broadly similar aims is unhelpful. It could be powerfully reconciling at this point if Colin, for instance, would… Read more »
Hi Jane, I’m really not sure where the idea that anyone would not uphold the right of anyone to choose a partner of any biological sex or sexuality, apart from those who uphold what they see as a ‘biblical’ or traditional view of sex or marriage, has come from. It’s certainly not my view, or the view of my many lesbian, gay and bisexual friends who are themselves very comfortable with a broader inclusion umbrella and do not feel at all erased or threatened by me. I would be more than happy to have a conversation with you to explain… Read more »
Hi Nicky, thanks for saying this. I think it’s incredibly important to hear transgender people spelling this out and of course I entirely believe you. As this is a Christian blog I hope most of us are on the same page about this – sexual relationships between whomsoever should only take place with free, informed and enthusiastic consent on both sides. And I’m happy to accept that most transgender people, whether Christian or not, would agree. However, I think we do need to be aware that there are other views out there which continue to contribute most unhelpfully to the… Read more »
‘I/we don’t know’ is often the most accurate response to any question.
“Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one.”
Voltaire.
Obviously, for those affected, it is a real and important issue.
Dave G said “Is there really a problem with LGB people being told they need to find trans people attractive?”. You seem surprised he is unaware of this issue. I am completely baffled. How many people are there in the general population who are LGB and have been told they have to find trans people attractive? Give me a number. Then tell me the probability that Dave G has met any of them. I’m not talking about theory or books or articles, I am talking about reality. It’s like Americans who know somebody living in London, and ask me (a… Read more »
Realise that who started this propaganda (in my young day, before the time of most commenters) had probably inherited an imperial mentality, were probably well regarded by establishment religion – and hence as spiritually potentised cloak for what? What was going on in the three schools Richard Dawkins went to (by chance not in the IICSA remit)? What were the connotations of “debs” before they were phased out? Were guests at pop music shows being subjected to normalisation? The secular world always has its ups and downs but interceding and supplicating (the core witness to the Gospel) is deemed unevangelical. And I’ve been… Read more »
NO ONE is saying that. You’re going to have to find another Straw Man (cisgender or not).
‘No-one is saying that?’ Where have you been hiding? Allow me to walk you through it, JC. Transgender orthodoxy is that if a person has transitioned they are the sex they have transitioned to and should be so treated for all legal and societal purposes. This includes the dating scene. So a biological female who has transitioned to male would be very likely to want a heterosexual woman to consider them as a sexual partner, either to affirm their new identity, or because they are gay, or both. People in this position and their supporters have not infrequently been very… Read more »
I agree completely with your sentiment, we should choose freely and no under any pressure.
How many biological women who have transitioned to male do you think there are in the population? Do you see this as greater or less than the problem of biological men who press women to be sexual partners, rather than letting matters take their course naturally? Or biological men who tell biological women they are frigid if they don’t jump into bed when asked?
How many do you think there are, Nigel? Mermaids boasted of taking 11.000 such enquiries from teenagers alone last year. The Tavistock, before closing, accepted over 5000 referrals a year. Heaven knows how many GenderGP and their ilk help score hormones online illegally every year. The increase in the last ten years alone has been stratospheric, from a handful of truly dysphoric patients to thousands.
I understand where you are coming from. There are certainly valid concerns about pressures put on young people in many directions.
But 5,000 out of a population of 60 million is under 0.01%
Jane, please stop. NO ONE expects another person to date outside of their preferences. Race, religion, gender, Blue eyes, whatever. If anyone “presses” on the subject it’s almost certainly a CRIME. “Conceal”? I could argue “Doesn’t everyone experience someone concealing *something* when dating?” But I suppose you mean the proverbial”Crying Game Moment”. Such concealment is very unwise, as the film showed: the concealer is FAR more likely to face serious (even deadly) consequences than the concealee. But I have to conclude, What Would Jesus Do if surprised by a Down There other than expected? Punch in the face? Start a… Read more »
I beg to disagree, the former CEO of Stonewall likened lesbians who would not consider a transitioned male as a partner to bigots, and worse. It’s taught in every school I’ve been in touch with: last year, two teen lesbians came to talk because some bearded bloke identifying as one of them came to lecture them on the matter, courtesy of Stonewall. before lockdown, LGB clubs had loads of teens who came out as same-sex attracted, now they all identify out of it, strenuously. You are witnessing the re-medicalisation of homosexuality, before they’ve even had a chance of exploring their… Read more »
I don’t believe you. Every school you have been in touch with? How many is that? Reference to quote from former CEO of Stonewall? Most school teachers or heads I have met are perfectly sensible on these issues.
I see some exaggeration. I am always skeptical of anything I read on social media until I read the original quote and context.
Disclaimer – I have met 3 school teachers or heads, all within my family.
We’re gender critical, fair enough. You see that as anti-trans, we do not. Many of us believe that gender ideology is actively harming gay and lesbian youths, hence the emphasis on this.
The only active harm to young people (including gay and lesbian ones) is closing down their exploration of gender identity. In the same way that previous generations closing down exploration of sexual identity and insisting everyone fitted into a heterosexual normativity was damaging. And you may see yourselves as gender critical, but to a trans person you are very much anti-trans. You don’t like trans people, you don’t want people to be trans, you probably don’t believe trans people are trans. That is anti-trans. Just as people who don’t like gay people, who don’t want gay people to express themselves… Read more »
You’ve got one thing right: I do not believe in ‘gender identity,’ it’s a made-up, regressive, sexist concept.
Thank you, Dave G.
The number of trans people, compared to the number of cisgender straight people is TINY…and yet this reactionary “LGB” crowd obsesses on this small number of trans people. Serious question: why is that?
If someone were to tell you they were “pro-family” and that they weren’t anti-gay but believed that the “homosexual agenda” was harming young people would you believe them? Because that’s *exactly* how you sound.
The ‘homosexual agenda’ never required you to undergo barbaric surgeries.
How many barbaric surgeries have there been in the UK in 2024? Predicted in 2025?
In 2021/22 it appears there were 335 male to female surgeries, and 22 female to male surgeries.
Hardly cause for hysteria, and any trend may be short-lived.
In 2015, the last year it was recorded, the average age of biological men undergoing surgery to appear more feminine was 44.
Of course we need care and concern for the individuals involved, and any industry promoting poor practices.
But these statistics are not high enough to frighten the horses.
As I understand the topic (and it is entering a brave new world) the issue isn’t to do with surgeries but with a segment of men who declare themselves to be women.
The lesbians who feel pressured to have sex and relationships with trans women – BBC News
ps. as an aside, at my primary school in the 1960’s we all did needlework and knitting. I still have a crotchet blanket and an embroidery table cover I did when aged 8. I never considered that liking these activities might make me question my sexuality. It’s a shame these activities may have gone out of fashion? Why are some activities regarded as feminine or masculine? It is bonkers. Is the actual problem more a matter of false ideas about masculinity, rather than trans agendas? Many men have so-called feminine aspects, the problem is thinking that such inclinations are feminine.… Read more »
Sigh. Again, Straw Men. “Required to undergo”, what? Trans surgeries have to be sought, and sought, and sought harder. It’s the hurdles to them that are “required to undergo”!
It was a figure of speech, but most dysphoric kids are now convinced that these procedures will save their lives. As for numbers, it’s impossible to know as you can now score cross-sex hormones online for about a tenner a month:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/03/cross-sex-hormones-available-online-11-pounds-a-month-young-people-gender-identity
Some charities offer safe spaces for teens to inject and even provide safe injecting devices, check Trans Harm Reduction etc.
Homophobes have equally grotesque ways of describing same-sex sexual behaviour. It’s no more impressive to insert meaningless adjectives like “barbaric” from you than it is from them. You know a better word to describe gender affirming care, including surgery where appropriate? “Effective”.
It’s not, read the Cass review. The evidence that these ‘treatments’ work is very low. The surgical complications from these surgeries are on the other hand scandalously high. The average age of people seeking them has dropped dramatically, most of them are now ‘gender affirming’ mastectomies performed on young, lesbian women.
The very fact that you’re citing the Cass review as if it were a serious piece of research tells me pretty much all I need to know.
And it’s not up you to tell young trans men that they’re “really” lesbians.
It is the most comprehensive and serious piece of research so far, it aligns with the Swedish one at the Karolinska and various others; the fact that you dismiss it speaks volume, Jo.
It’s not a piece of research at all, it’s an exercise in cherry picking and editorialising that starts from the premise that being trans is bad. Cass was appointed, as the tories under Badenoch have bragged, precisely to attack access to gender affirming care. The methodology has been torn to shreds by actual researchers and the report is a global laughing stock.
the report is a global laughing stock.
References?
I think it was an incomplete reaction to a situation contrived by authorities whose attitude was unlike yours. You mentioned Kemi and I think she is naive about the proxy war her class started before her time. I think Lorenzo is not articulating some issues clearly and I hope his organisation will advertise genuine contact for input.
The side-point was that a few individuals were demanding sexual relations. Colloquially, if a reason is given for declining it might seem informally coarse. That doesn’t in any way alter the many people freely relating with others (of all kinds) as Geoff describes.
Just a question. What is the cost to undergo these surgeries and the ongoing, lifetime medical costs?
Please, that’s clearly not “just a question”, that’s a leaping off point for you claiming that it’s a waste of money.
Do you have problem answering a question? There are reasons some social medicine countries have put a stop to this.
Let me repeat: “What is the cost to undergo these surgeries and the ongoing, lifetime medical costs?”
I have a problem answering questions asked in bad faith, yes.
Dear Anglican Priest, since we’ve reached this point in this rather unpleasant thread, permit me to indulge you with an answer. The cost of a full vaginaplasty for someone wanting to undertake male to female gender confirmation surgery as part of their transition is between £10-20,000 as a private procedure. I mention this because this is the cost borne by most individuals not able to wait 7+ years for a first appointment in our near collapsed NHS. The cost of ongoing hormone treatment is available on a link someone has posted elsewhere. For many trans people, myself included, the pain… Read more »
Not on this topic alone, I am very hesitant to turn to the medical world for things like surgery to ‘treat’ what is obviously an extremely painful condition — one that has emerged at this cultural moment in certain pockets in the West where medicine and big pharma are called on to ‘fix things.’ (Ozempic being the newest example). Reading the BBC piece on this blog is very sobering. Sexual desiring and satisfaction is so exalted — apparently, as it is a very bracing account of things many of us in my generation have no idea of — that trans… Read more »
Okay, this is my last post on this thread to let you know I’m now done with this discussion.
If I felt you were genuinely interested in listening to and hearing a trans person I’d give you all the time in the world, but sadly that’s evidently not the case.
I’m going to double down on getting on with my life as I’ve been trying to do for nearly 56 years. Good day.
Enjoy the double down and your last post.
There are a few assumptions here that are worth unpacking. First, transgender health care has not “emerged” in our own moment of history. In its modern form, it dates back at least a century. Second, plenty of trans women are lesbians who can and do form intimate relationships with other lesbians, trans or not. (As I have said upthread, gay trans men do the same with other gay men). Obviously, medication and surgery on their own cannot solve all of a trans person’s problems any more than they can anyone else’s. For trans people in particular there is a good… Read more »
I have been on health care in, variously, Canada, the UK, France, and Germany. I am on Medicare in the US, where I am a citizen. As for “plenty of trans women are lesbians who can and do form intimate relationships with other lesbians, trans or not. (As I have said upthread, gay trans men do the same with other gay men).” So what? Lots of people have lots of different sexual urges. That is a truism. Think this discussion is buffering. It’s not clear how any of this is connected to the person of Jesus Christ, in ways that… Read more »
In that case, I’m not sure why you raised these questions, but I’ve done my best to connect them to a Christian anthropology as it pertains to trans people.
That’s an intrusive question and is based dishonestly (copying some contractors) on lumping together all the aspects of all the affairs of the different kinds of transpeople and powers who may be allowing some a genuine favour. This question only applies to the cases of some, and then in private by consent. Ghouls wanted someone like you to do this on purpose, surely blaspheming your avowed unique status. The thread start is about exclusions in churches. Since church leaders aren’t alert to the gaps in scriptural Holy Spirit belief they impose, they should at least stop promoting eucharists for anyone… Read more »
“Fifteen years ago the author reviewed the world literature on male transsexualism (Pauly, 1965). Subsequently he summarized the results of sex reassignment surgery for male and female transsexuals (Pauly, 1968), and reviewed the literature on female transsexualism (Pauly, 1974). Very recently, Meyer and Reter (1979) concluded that ‘sex reassignment surgery confers no objective advantage in terms of social rehabilitation’ as compared with a group of individuals who sought sex reassignment but remained unoperated upon at follow-up. Both groups improved over time and led the Johns Hopkins Gender Identity Clinic to conclude that sex reassignment surgery would no longer be offered… Read more »
We turn to each other during Sunday services and say, “Peace be with you.”. Does that mean anything if it is a woman and I am adding a mental reservation “… but I don’t think you can be validly ordained.”. Or to a gay man “… but your marriage is sinful”. Or to a trans woman “… why are you wearing womanface, you aren’t a woman.”. Do you seriously think that God would see any of that as loving your neighbour? Let’s be honest. 2000+ years ago that reservation could have been “… Jesus won’t save you, you are not… Read more »
Kate – it’s an Amen from me! As a Christian “born out of time” (which is the way I increasingly feel) I am living and breathing and campaigning for the Church and society and the global community to include everyone, both because this is what I understand from Jesus’ teachings and because the ‘other’ God, the exclusive one who many believe consigns us to hell for our sins, that God is evil and the source of abuse. No one dares to challenge conservative evangelical teachings that are founded on a literalist human understanding of sacred texts that are one of… Read more »
Sadly, Colin, so much of this depends (as usual) on which verses you take as your foundations for beliefs. I can find a very inclusive message in the teachings of Jesus, as you do. Equally, by picking other verses, I find the exact opposite – and so much depends on which you choose. That itself is influenced by individual upbringing, personality, mental characteristics and a good few other factors. I go as close to the liberal, inclusive Jesus as I can (and as C S Lewis said, the Bible lets me go very close to that) but, as I read… Read more »
PS One further point – repentance is indeed a turning point, a decision to ‘go God’s way’. But it will not change a person’s essential basic nature or orientation. As a heterosexual male, no amount of repentance, however heartfelt, will make me non-sexual; I still have to struggle with my innate desires for women and keep submitting them to Christ’s Lordship – with my wife as much as with a pretty girl in the street. The same thing must arise with homo – or transsexual people. (I can’t speak from personal experience there!) What we do with our desires, or… Read more »
John, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I simply don’t believe in the kind of God those who use and interpret the Bible in that way believe. I never have. Bottom line, I’m gay, I have desires, God can’t create anything one way and then judge or punish that person for being that way. Or to put it another way, I find the conservative God deeply unpleasant and unhelpful to the common good and the well being of humanity.
Lorenzo – why do you choose to totally misrepresent what I believe and advocate. Perhaps you have never visited my website and followed the evolution of my thinking. You are right – I do not ‘presumably’ object to disabled, trans people or asexuals to organise on their own, but I would view what they are doing as a specialist focus on a specific minority identity group that also see themselves as part of the greater whole. I fully support those in the Church of England advocating for action to fully include people living with disabilities and value the work of… Read more »
These discussions about inclusion, and whether we should include those who disagree with inclusion, brings to mind Russell’s paradox.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-russells-paradox/
I am a physicist, not a pure mathematician, for good reasons.
I am more of a Bayesian. We start with the whole wide world, and everything within it. Every body is unique and different.
Colin Coward’s fantastical piece on his blog reminded me of a recent trip to Clinton’s Cards for a gift box, while the husband was at the till my phone rang from a Private Number, I answered as his hairdresser shop had recently been ram raided, and I was expecting a police update. A voice asked: “Where are you?” “Clinton’s Cards.” “Ah, well, you have an appointment here at the memory clinic.” I announced this to my husband across the shop: “Chris! I forgot to go to the memory clinic.” The other customers thought this hilarious. Maybe the author of… Read more »
Hi Martin, I appreciate you commenting on “fantastical piece” and the event it reminded you of. I’m glad that you and others have memories of me that are hilarious! I also have memories from nearly thirty years ago. I never tried to “take control of LGCM in the mid 1990s”. I was an elected member of the Board of LGCM. A number of Church of England Board members argued for the formation of an Anglican caucus to focus on Church of England matters. This was resisted strongly by other members of the Board and eventually we were defeated at an… Read more »
The story seems to have changed from that published on the blog. Knowledge of the new group is now not just a few months ago but over a year back No contact … is now exchanged emails and a meeting. The memories are returning. That’s good news. I see that the “facts” of the story in the blog have also been challenged on X by LGB Christians.. The last two paragraphs of my comment were intended to be a generous and cautious reflection on the consequences of dividing the cause for full inclusion at a crucial time, giving great occasion… Read more »
From Mark Clavier’s post (clever blog title: JSBach would be proud!) The gospel isn’t that the Church provides community services or meets social needs—important though those are. The gospel is that we’re a community saved by grace, through faith, in Christ. And our purpose is to announce that gospel to the world. Ah, but too many Christians work actively AGAINST “community services” (e.g., for women to control their own bodies) or “meet social needs” (e.g., the human need to marry your beloved). If these Christians are so against what actually makes life Good, no wonder so few anymore will listen… Read more »
I thought the Church of England was officially pro-life at least? Perhaps someone else can enlighten me on that. At least I know that Scripture affirms personhood in the womb in Psalm 139. I definitely struggle to see how one could argue for destroying human life as a matter of choice from a Christian perspective in any case particularly given that our forbears rescued children from the rubbish heaps in Rome. You mention that humans have a need to marry. A Christian position teaches that singleness is valuable and worthwhile and even a gift for those who have received it… Read more »
The most we can say is that abortion can only be the lesser of two evils, even, as you say, from a pro-choice viewpoint. Nobody could ever be pro-abortion.
“A new life in Christ”: aye, there’s the rub.
If it’s not a life where females can control their bodies, where a person can MARRY THEIR BELOVED (please don’t leave out that latter clause)…then, TO ME, I don’t want that life and that’s NOT in the Jesus Christ that I KNOW (and eat!).
Sorry, I simply will not accept your substitute.
And this is where we are. We both claim to be faithful Christians (of Anglican tradition), but we have mutually incomprehensible Jesuses. Lord have mercy…
You’re probably right (and also right to say that there can’t be two fundamentally contradictory Christs). New life in Christ would discourage us from taking human life as a matter of choice. If we love God we’ll keep His commandments, including his stance on children or in respect to marriage. Thankfully God hasn’t left us without guidance. We’ve got His Word to us. At the end of the day you’re right – we can freely decide that we don’t want to accept the cost of following Christ. He tells us to count the cost in Luke 14. And mercy is… Read more »
My last word: I have to state for the record that the positions I hold (via the God-in-Christ I know) come to me via Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. God’s word guides me, and I know only too well, the cost of following (Jesus was crucified by those who purported to act in the name of the same G_d, too).
Oh , the Psalms! You can find something in there for all occasions ….Psslm 69 at Evensong on Palm Sunday was a real cracker.. I was somewhere where we had the full works,not just the more ‘acceptable’ verses 1-21.
‘May the table set before them become a snare;May it become retribution and a trap’
And vv 27 and 28
‘Charge them with crime upon crime;do not let them share in your salvation
May they be blotted out of the book of life;and not be listed with the righteous’
This thread seems to be gambolling along merrily infused with this spirit…..
As far as I can tell traditionally Christians have understood the Psalms as being inspired by God and Scriptural. I don’t see why. I could also have leaned on Jeremiah 1:5 which argues that God knew the prophet in the womb. To Psalm 69 – Christians also traditionally believe in the judgement of God. Why would this be unacceptable? Unacceptable to whom? Christ was clear about judgement. The creed tells us that Jesus is coming to judge the living and the dead. The book of life concept is also interesting and draws some parallels for us with what we’re told… Read more »
Small typo – I meant I don’t see why we would view it differently in the second paragraph.
Hello Gareth, I would not dream of giving you any advice on how you read your Bible, least of all the Psalms- many of which I personally find very perplexing. But I was startled when you suddenly also brought up Pro Life and seemed to be attaching your reason for it to the verse of one of the Psalms. In my view, behind every abortion lies a tragedy and attempts to outlaw any choice for women in any circumstances condemns the pregnant woman to yet more extended suffering. In respect of Psalm 69, the elderly service book in the church… Read more »
I make no apologies for stating that Scripture affirms personhood in the womb because it does in several places. As for a vengeful God or not, what are we to do with the reality that Jesus spoke frequently of judgement and hell and Revelation 19 speaks of God’s people rejoicing in the final judgement. As I’ve mentioned already the creed tells us that Jesus will judge the living and the dead. The Apostle Paul encourages the persecuted saints in Thessalonica with the judgement of God in the face of their afflictions (2 Thessalonians 1:5-12). There’s a degree to which it… Read more »
One minority pitted against another/divide and rule looks like something straight out of the fascist playbook. The solidarity of different groups in the struggle for equality has been a fine thing and it’s incredibly disappointing to see communities I’ve long supported turning on trans people now. It’s also confusing to watch. For example, the gender critical position, as I understand it, is that I am a (deluded) gay man so on that basis wouldn’t the mission of an LGB organisation be to include me and persuade me of my error? Oh, but wait a minute, that would be conversion therapy.… Read more »
Christina, you’ve written and taught extensively on transgender lives and identities and are generally regarded as a reasonable and informed commentator. I’m disappointed by the tone of this post (fascist playbook, forsooth?) which doesn’t do justice to that reputation. I understand that transgender people may be feeling deeply wounded and betrayed at the moment by a society that seemed to promise them things that were ultimately undeliverable. The cutting edge now is to clarify and confirm how transgender rights and freedoms can be expressed in a way that doesn’t infringe on the rights and freedoms of others. I hope you’ll… Read more »
Trans rights and freedoms don’t infringe on the rights of others, and they’re not “undeliverable” you and others are refusing to respect them. At least have the honesty to admit what you’re doing.
In fact, it does perfect justice to that reputation.
I think that the force of the SC ruling is that certification had been somehow brought into disrepute though not by what I would call the mainstream. The fascism/bolshevik strategy has long been deployed, and incidentally partly through little mentioned contractors, piggybacking on notions of “sin”, not dismayed at the continued antagonism. I think there are many different kinds of trans communities, and drastically little attention has been given to standing up for everybody of all kinds to be treated with deserved delicacy. This started with the proxy war between boys and girls as cloak for whatever my generation’s elders were… Read more »
Dear Colin This is a formal response from LGB Christians to your blog on 18 April 2025, ‘Church of England campaign group attitudes to trans, intersex and non-binary people’. We were saddened to read your blog, because it contains some inaccurate points and we wish to correct the record. It is a pity that you did not share your blog with us before publishing it, especially as we had reached out privately last year in the summer by phone, directly, in an attempt to begin dialogue. You say that you had no contact from us, but this is not true.… Read more »
If you read the rest of this thread the anti-trans stance of your group has been amply demonstrated, which makes these denials appear all the more disingenuous. Given that, why should anyone trust the rest of what you say?
It seems to me Mark and Richard make a careful and reasonable point. I for one respect their position and agree with it.
Thank you Dave.
I think ascribing certain views of certain people on this thread to the views of the LGB group as a whole should be handled with caution.
Thank you Nigel.
Ascribing the content of their website, which was highlighted above and (as I said) is demonstrably anti-trans, to the group as a whole is entirely reasonable. The fact that they’re at pains to distance themselves from trans people and weigh in to have a go at Colin but ignore the frankly disgusting rhetoric from their supporters is also rather telling.
I hesitate to add to the already voluminous comments on this thread, but: I agree the web site could be problematic. I was commenting not on the web site, but on certain contributors on this thread, who are not spokespeople for LGB (but may work with or for them), as far as I am aware, but may appear to be such. No group can control its membership, and we should not transfer.I worry about the heat, although I understand for some individuals it is a very personal and relevant topic. I hear words such as ‘disgusting’,’ stratospheric’, ‘some bearded bloke’,… Read more »
Oh, it’s quite possible to have grave concerns about the trans movement without for a second requiring a new LGB coalition to be the instigator of that concern.
Let Mark and Richard speak ably for themselves.
Dear Mark and Richard, I fear that, both your grouping and Colin’s, may founder on your mutual focus for organisational church sacramental-based demands (not very paradoxically, an offshoot of false ecumenism). The only ordinance Jesus gave is to honour simply Holy Spirit in those smaller than yourselves, which can be obscured or supplanted (before delicate consciences) by such baggage. None of you will induce the politicians to change theology to please you, and there has always been a great deal of poisonous theology. I also think that among the elephants in the room is the insertion of some little-mentioned contractors and it’s… Read more »
Michael, it’s very easy to make contact with me – hit the Contact menu at the top right hand corner of the Home Page. Alternatively Google me, or find me on Facebook or address me via the Changing Attitude England Facebook group. Unlike some leaders of another group, it’s very easy to contact me personally and directly. I have always used my real name on every social network I’m part of.