The term being in Communion with the See of Canterbury can risk turning the See of Canterbury into another Papacy, which would on the one hand not help Ecumenical relationships with the Catholic and in understanding the nature of the Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury and treating it as an Anglican Papacy, would in itself be Un Anglican. I remember the late Father Roland Walls the Founder of the Community of the Transfiguration, my former Community at Roslin, telling me and others during the Roslin years when I was a Monk there, a story about a visit he made… Read more »
I’ve always thought the being in communion/not being in communion thing is a nonsense. When we partake of the eucharist we partake of Christ, and are therefore in communion with all other people who partake of Christ. In Christ there is no male and female, no slave and free, no Jew and Gentile, no Baptist and Roman Catholic. We are all one in Christ Jesus.
How silly. Of course you can have communion in a RC church: millions of people around the world do. FrDavid H is seeming to imply that communion in such a church is exclusively reserved for regular attenders of that denomination. That is not catholicism!
How silly. Communion in RC Churches is reserved for Roman Catholics. Some non-Catholics may break their rules by abusing their hospitality. We are NOT in Communion with them. Which means you can’t receive communion
The late Cardinal Basil Hume wrote to Tony Blair before his conversion (i.e, reception into the RC church) instructing him not to take communion in the RC church. Quite unequivocal. I was enjoined in similarly non-negotiable language in the RC church of St Peter on Lake Tiberias (Galilee) many years ago, but already knowing the drill did not consider breaking their rules. The RC church recognises my Anglican baptism as valid, but that is as far as it goes.
That is precisely why people like the Archbishop of Canterbury visit the Pope. Christian unity is a goal not a present reality. Neither is it about just being nice each other. If you want to “be one” with Roman Catholics I’m sure you’d be welcomed by them. Are you sure Jesus’ prayer for unity doesn’t include an acceptance of Papal Primacy?
Agreed. We belong to another denomination because Henry VIII decided to leave, and we can choose to return. In the meantime, we’re not short of Anglican churches in which to receive communion,
I question this separation of Christ from His Body because he never spoke of it in this way. He also didn’t have denominated Christianity in his plan of salvation, and neither did the NT. The oneness of the Father and the Son is what he gave his life for, for One Body.
Of course I agree. It’s just that if I belong to a denomination, and then I say ‘I’m out of here; and I’m also going to steal your best buildings and worship in them instead of you; and while I’m about it I’ll change some of your long-standing doctrines‘ (or if someone else does all this on my behalf), I can see why that denomination might find it difficult to fully include me in their services.
Well, I can see how this argument might work in England. But most Anglicans don’t live in England, and don’t worship in buildings that used to be Catholic churches.
The churches were not taken from anyone. They were the churches of the parishes of England and they remained the churches of the parishes of England. The patrons remained the patrons. Ecclesiastical corporations, including corporations sole (such as diocesan bishoprics) and the chapters of the Old Foundation cathedrals continued. What happened was that the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome was abolished. Additionally monasteries and chantries and the like were dissolved, but that had started before the break with Rome. The monastic cathedral priories, having lost their monks were (with two exceptions) refounded as non-monastic colleges, very often with at… Read more »
Thanks Simon, just to ciarify: if the CEEC decide their churches are no longer under the jurisdiction of the ABC/ABY/current diocesan bishop, but will still serve their English parishes and have the same patrons, are you saying that would be fine?
I deliberately wrote in a low-key fashion. Clearly it was not something that just happened. But that doesn’t mean that what I wrote is not true either.
It’s not uncommon to come across small plaques commemorating Reformation martyrs — of both sides. In Ely, for example, there is a pair of such plaques on either side of the cathedral green, one commemorating Protestant martyrs and one commemorating Roman Catholic martyrs. (I don’t think there is any particular significance to them being on opposite sides of the green!)
“Additionally monasteries and chantries and the like were dissolved, but that had started before the break with Rome. The monastic cathedral priories, having lost their monks were (with two exceptions) refounded as non-monastic colleges, very often with at least some of the same personnel, e.g. the last prior becoming the first dean.” This is what you wrote (“low-key” is your present language). This certainly makes it sound like there couldn’t have been Carthusian Martyrs or the ’84.’ because none of this was actually around at the time of the Reformation. “that started before the break with Rome” — can you… Read more »
While it is true that a RC priest should not permit me to take communion in RC church, I do not have my denomination tattooed on my forehead, so am at liberty to receive from him. RC priests that I know would be quite happy to be complicit with that.
But that is saying you make and decide the rules, not them. There are very few places where an Anglican Church isn’t within reasonable reach (the lists in Wikipedia for the Diocese in Europe and TEC and others in the Americas are a revelation) so why not stay with your own denomination when away from home?
How delightfully Eurocentric.
I was a seafarer for over 40 years & there are many countries where finding any church was hard, let alone right denomination, particularly in pre internet era.
I was on board ship in the Pacific and attended an RC mass, the only option on that voyage. I didn’t take communion. For non-RCs it boils down to obeying their rules.
Another TA diversion: it was noteworthy that an RC laity group from Scotland refused to take communion in both kinds, only the host.
I am not sure what your definition of ‘reasonable reach’ is, but Austria only has one COfE church which is in Vienna, over 3 hours from, say, Salzburg; not a feasible weekly visit.
I have frequently attended SEC services in Edinburgh and TEC services in USA as well as RC services on two continents. That wasn’t my point.
I don’t rule out, in fact the opposite, attending another denomination. I was simply saying to Francis James that I would not break the rules of the RC church, so carefully and helpfully set out below by Jonathan Jamal. So far, no one has rebutted what Jonathan has said:
I have watched this thread with interest as although not Roman Catholic I do at times attend a Roman Catholic church. It would not even occur to me to take communion as there are clear differences of theology. They make me very welcome and I would not want to undermine their rules which are clearly related to their theology. At large services it is pointed out politely that only Roman Catholics can take communion but you can go up for a blessing which I do.
Because some of us might think that worshipping with what used to be called “the ongoing body of the baptised” is more important that worshipping with “our own denomination”. I live in England, I worship with the Church of England; back home in Scotland I am happy (up to a point) to worship with the Church of Scotland; on holiday in Spain I worship where most people do, in the local parishes and cathedrals. On the other hand I don’t (even when encouraged to do so) physically receive the sacrament where I know the local rules make me ineligible: as… Read more »
Gosh, how a simple comment gets embellished and misinterpreted. I am an Anglican and housebound. My current church ‘attendance’ is almost wholly RC by television via the US network ‘EWTN’. Before becoming so incapacitated, one of my last physical attendances was a midday Mass in St Chad’s Cathedral, Birmingham. I made no attempt to communicate, but the warmth and kindness to this ‘outsider’ were outstanding.
Yes, I do decide which rules to follow and which not. The wishes of the person or body who own the rules is a factor but not an overriding one.
One example of where I decided to receive RC communion (there have only ever been a handful, I don’t make a regular practice of it) was at a funeral. I felt that pastoral sensitivity to the bereaved in that specific context trumped the rules. YMMV.
I once, as a then-Methodist, not even an Anglican, received communion from a RC Bishop, who knew exactly who I was. The rules are what they are but I suspect there are quite a few RC priests who are willing to sit loose to them.
Canon 844 of the Roman Catholic church says this: §1 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments only to catholic members of Christ’s faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from catholic ministers, except as provided in §§2, 3 and 4 of this canon and in can. 861 §2. and the relevant reference here is to §4: If there is a danger of death or if, in the judgement of the diocesan Bishop or of the Episcopal Conference, there is some other grave and pressing need, catholic ministers may lawfully administer these same sacraments to other christians not in full communion… Read more »
What has that got to do with whether Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, and Roman Catholics can take Holy Communion with and from each other? ‘It is the table, not of the church, but of the Lord.’
It’s interesting how this discussion in Anglican churches is almost always about whether or not we can receive Holy Communion together, rather than whether we are participating in the koinonia of the Holy Spirit.
I share in the koinonia of the Holy Spirit with the members of the Mennonite church I attend most Sundays and the members of the Anglican churches I serve from time to time. It’s meaningless for me to say our churches are not in koinonia with each other.
Exactly. Point towards our unity in Christ, and people always revert to denominational rules. There’s a place for rules, but spiritual realities are more important.
The church was made for man, not man for the church.
Adrian Clarke
18 days ago
‘At best, these seem to me to amount a spirit of ‘retreat in order to advance’. And that I think is a problem’. Sounds like colonialism to me.
Jonathan Jamal
16 days ago
The matter of the Roman Catholic Church not giving Holy Communion to Non- Roman Catholics is not simply a matter of Policy it is enshrined in the 1983 Code of Catholic Canon Law and for any Priest break that would be a very serious Canonical Offence, involving the Priest concerned receiving a serious Censure from his Diocesan Bishop and being put under discipline, Priests are not free agents in this matter, at their Ordination as Priests they Promise Obedience to the Bishop of the Diocese and their Successors. A Priest Knows what he taking on at Ordination as far as… Read more »
Perhaps no surprise that Royal Navy icon Horatio Nelson, who regarded rules & rigid obedience with a blind eye, was son a CofE clergyman, as indeed were many successful officers. In my experience RC padres in the navy were practical rather than robots.
I’ve attended Mass from time to time both because there is no Anglican church near me (there isn’t a Catholic one either but a priest has been known to visit) and because I have been travelling and sought out a midweek service wherever I happened to be. I have only received when specifically invited to by the priest when he’s had knowledge of the circumstances. I wouldn’t try to receive without that invitation but neither would I refuse it, thinking to follow the rules better than the priest does. I trust that the priest on the ground will know what… Read more »
Gordon
10 days ago
It is interesting how quickly this conversation derailed into a debate about Roman Catholic practices around celebrating Communion. I’m not seeing much positive interest in the Anglican communion other than (for some) a badge that a church would be a possible destination while on holiday (which doesn’t sound like sufficient reason to maintain an institution to me). Given the diversity even within the CofE (how many Anglicans of an HTB persuasion would actually worship in either a strongly progressive or ritualistic congregation on holiday, and vice versa, rather than just taking a week off), perhaps it is time to recognise… Read more »
Some people (I have no idea how many) will simply take advantage of the opportunity they now have to participate in worship with their own church online.
The term being in Communion with the See of Canterbury can risk turning the See of Canterbury into another Papacy, which would on the one hand not help Ecumenical relationships with the Catholic and in understanding the nature of the Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury and treating it as an Anglican Papacy, would in itself be Un Anglican. I remember the late Father Roland Walls the Founder of the Community of the Transfiguration, my former Community at Roslin, telling me and others during the Roslin years when I was a Monk there, a story about a visit he made… Read more »
I’ve always thought the being in communion/not being in communion thing is a nonsense. When we partake of the eucharist we partake of Christ, and are therefore in communion with all other people who partake of Christ. In Christ there is no male and female, no slave and free, no Jew and Gentile, no Baptist and Roman Catholic. We are all one in Christ Jesus.
But you can’t have communion in a RC church. Why is that a nonsense?
How silly. Of course you can have communion in a RC church: millions of people around the world do. FrDavid H is seeming to imply that communion in such a church is exclusively reserved for regular attenders of that denomination. That is not catholicism!
How silly. Communion in RC Churches is reserved for Roman Catholics. Some non-Catholics may break their rules by abusing their hospitality. We are NOT in Communion with them. Which means you can’t receive communion
The late Cardinal Basil Hume wrote to Tony Blair before his conversion (i.e, reception into the RC church) instructing him not to take communion in the RC church. Quite unequivocal. I was enjoined in similarly non-negotiable language in the RC church of St Peter on Lake Tiberias (Galilee) many years ago, but already knowing the drill did not consider breaking their rules. The RC church recognises my Anglican baptism as valid, but that is as far as it goes.
It was a long time ago, 1975 or so, in Salamanca, but I was refused communion. Maybe it is more relaxed now?
Having completed the Camino I attended the pilgrim mass in the cathedral where it was made perfectly clear that communion was not for Protestants.
I doubt that denying the sacrament to people of other denominations is what Jesus had in mind when he prayed ‘that they may all be one’.
That is precisely why people like the Archbishop of Canterbury visit the Pope. Christian unity is a goal not a present reality. Neither is it about just being nice each other. If you want to “be one” with Roman Catholics I’m sure you’d be welcomed by them. Are you sure Jesus’ prayer for unity doesn’t include an acceptance of Papal Primacy?
Yes
Your certainty isn’t likely to promote Christian unity.
Your question was without nuance so I answered without nuance. My discussions with RC friends have taken a different shape.
Agreed. We belong to another denomination because Henry VIII decided to leave, and we can choose to return. In the meantime, we’re not short of Anglican churches in which to receive communion,
But you belong first to Christ, then to one or other denomination.
I question this separation of Christ from His Body because he never spoke of it in this way. He also didn’t have denominated Christianity in his plan of salvation, and neither did the NT. The oneness of the Father and the Son is what he gave his life for, for One Body.
If you’re implying that I have separated Christ from his body, you have completely misunderstood what I’ve been saying.
Of course I agree. It’s just that if I belong to a denomination, and then I say ‘I’m out of here; and I’m also going to steal your best buildings and worship in them instead of you; and while I’m about it I’ll change some of your long-standing doctrines‘ (or if someone else does all this on my behalf), I can see why that denomination might find it difficult to fully include me in their services.
Well, I can see how this argument might work in England. But most Anglicans don’t live in England, and don’t worship in buildings that used to be Catholic churches.
The churches were not taken from anyone. They were the churches of the parishes of England and they remained the churches of the parishes of England. The patrons remained the patrons. Ecclesiastical corporations, including corporations sole (such as diocesan bishoprics) and the chapters of the Old Foundation cathedrals continued. What happened was that the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome was abolished. Additionally monasteries and chantries and the like were dissolved, but that had started before the break with Rome. The monastic cathedral priories, having lost their monks were (with two exceptions) refounded as non-monastic colleges, very often with at… Read more »
Thanks Simon, just to ciarify: if the CEEC decide their churches are no longer under the jurisdiction of the ABC/ABY/current diocesan bishop, but will still serve their English parishes and have the same patrons, are you saying that would be fine?
How anodyne a reckoning…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthusian_Martyrs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthusian_Martyrs_of_London
I deliberately wrote in a low-key fashion. Clearly it was not something that just happened. But that doesn’t mean that what I wrote is not true either.
It’s not uncommon to come across small plaques commemorating Reformation martyrs — of both sides. In Ely, for example, there is a pair of such plaques on either side of the cathedral green, one commemorating Protestant martyrs and one commemorating Roman Catholic martyrs. (I don’t think there is any particular significance to them being on opposite sides of the green!)
“Additionally monasteries and chantries and the like were dissolved, but that had started before the break with Rome. The monastic cathedral priories, having lost their monks were (with two exceptions) refounded as non-monastic colleges, very often with at least some of the same personnel, e.g. the last prior becoming the first dean.” This is what you wrote (“low-key” is your present language). This certainly makes it sound like there couldn’t have been Carthusian Martyrs or the ’84.’ because none of this was actually around at the time of the Reformation. “that started before the break with Rome” — can you… Read more »
While it is true that a RC priest should not permit me to take communion in RC church, I do not have my denomination tattooed on my forehead, so am at liberty to receive from him. RC priests that I know would be quite happy to be complicit with that.
But that is saying you make and decide the rules, not them. There are very few places where an Anglican Church isn’t within reasonable reach (the lists in Wikipedia for the Diocese in Europe and TEC and others in the Americas are a revelation) so why not stay with your own denomination when away from home?
How delightfully Eurocentric.
I was a seafarer for over 40 years & there are many countries where finding any church was hard, let alone right denomination, particularly in pre internet era.
I was on board ship in the Pacific and attended an RC mass, the only option on that voyage. I didn’t take communion. For non-RCs it boils down to obeying their rules.
Another TA diversion: it was noteworthy that an RC laity group from Scotland refused to take communion in both kinds, only the host.
I am not sure what your definition of ‘reasonable reach’ is, but Austria only has one COfE church which is in Vienna, over 3 hours from, say, Salzburg; not a feasible weekly visit.
You could seek out an Old Catholic parish with whom we are in communion.
I have frequently attended SEC services in Edinburgh and TEC services in USA as well as RC services on two continents. That wasn’t my point.
I don’t rule out, in fact the opposite, attending another denomination. I was simply saying to Francis James that I would not break the rules of the RC church, so carefully and helpfully set out below by Jonathan Jamal. So far, no one has rebutted what Jonathan has said:
I have watched this thread with interest as although not Roman Catholic I do at times attend a Roman Catholic church. It would not even occur to me to take communion as there are clear differences of theology. They make me very welcome and I would not want to undermine their rules which are clearly related to their theology. At large services it is pointed out politely that only Roman Catholics can take communion but you can go up for a blessing which I do.
Because some of us might think that worshipping with what used to be called “the ongoing body of the baptised” is more important that worshipping with “our own denomination”. I live in England, I worship with the Church of England; back home in Scotland I am happy (up to a point) to worship with the Church of Scotland; on holiday in Spain I worship where most people do, in the local parishes and cathedrals. On the other hand I don’t (even when encouraged to do so) physically receive the sacrament where I know the local rules make me ineligible: as… Read more »
Gosh, how a simple comment gets embellished and misinterpreted. I am an Anglican and housebound. My current church ‘attendance’ is almost wholly RC by television via the US network ‘EWTN’. Before becoming so incapacitated, one of my last physical attendances was a midday Mass in St Chad’s Cathedral, Birmingham. I made no attempt to communicate, but the warmth and kindness to this ‘outsider’ were outstanding.
There are massive areas in rural North America where you have to drive for at least sixty miles to get to an Anglican church.
Yes, I do decide which rules to follow and which not. The wishes of the person or body who own the rules is a factor but not an overriding one.
One example of where I decided to receive RC communion (there have only ever been a handful, I don’t make a regular practice of it) was at a funeral. I felt that pastoral sensitivity to the bereaved in that specific context trumped the rules. YMMV.
I once, as a then-Methodist, not even an Anglican, received communion from a RC Bishop, who knew exactly who I was. The rules are what they are but I suspect there are quite a few RC priests who are willing to sit loose to them.
Canon 844 of the Roman Catholic church says this: §1 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments only to catholic members of Christ’s faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from catholic ministers, except as provided in §§2, 3 and 4 of this canon and in can. 861 §2. and the relevant reference here is to §4: If there is a danger of death or if, in the judgement of the diocesan Bishop or of the Episcopal Conference, there is some other grave and pressing need, catholic ministers may lawfully administer these same sacraments to other christians not in full communion… Read more »
Does the Bible say or imply that there is no orthodox, no heretic?
What has that got to do with whether Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, and Roman Catholics can take Holy Communion with and from each other? ‘It is the table, not of the church, but of the Lord.’
It’s interesting how this discussion in Anglican churches is almost always about whether or not we can receive Holy Communion together, rather than whether we are participating in the koinonia of the Holy Spirit.
I share in the koinonia of the Holy Spirit with the members of the Mennonite church I attend most Sundays and the members of the Anglican churches I serve from time to time. It’s meaningless for me to say our churches are not in koinonia with each other.
Exactly. Point towards our unity in Christ, and people always revert to denominational rules. There’s a place for rules, but spiritual realities are more important.
The church was made for man, not man for the church.
‘At best, these seem to me to amount a spirit of ‘retreat in order to advance’. And that I think is a problem’. Sounds like colonialism to me.
The matter of the Roman Catholic Church not giving Holy Communion to Non- Roman Catholics is not simply a matter of Policy it is enshrined in the 1983 Code of Catholic Canon Law and for any Priest break that would be a very serious Canonical Offence, involving the Priest concerned receiving a serious Censure from his Diocesan Bishop and being put under discipline, Priests are not free agents in this matter, at their Ordination as Priests they Promise Obedience to the Bishop of the Diocese and their Successors. A Priest Knows what he taking on at Ordination as far as… Read more »
Perhaps no surprise that Royal Navy icon Horatio Nelson, who regarded rules & rigid obedience with a blind eye, was son a CofE clergyman, as indeed were many successful officers. In my experience RC padres in the navy were practical rather than robots.
I’ve attended Mass from time to time both because there is no Anglican church near me (there isn’t a Catholic one either but a priest has been known to visit) and because I have been travelling and sought out a midweek service wherever I happened to be. I have only received when specifically invited to by the priest when he’s had knowledge of the circumstances. I wouldn’t try to receive without that invitation but neither would I refuse it, thinking to follow the rules better than the priest does. I trust that the priest on the ground will know what… Read more »
It is interesting how quickly this conversation derailed into a debate about Roman Catholic practices around celebrating Communion. I’m not seeing much positive interest in the Anglican communion other than (for some) a badge that a church would be a possible destination while on holiday (which doesn’t sound like sufficient reason to maintain an institution to me). Given the diversity even within the CofE (how many Anglicans of an HTB persuasion would actually worship in either a strongly progressive or ritualistic congregation on holiday, and vice versa, rather than just taking a week off), perhaps it is time to recognise… Read more »
Some people (I have no idea how many) will simply take advantage of the opportunity they now have to participate in worship with their own church online.