Thank you Mouse. Your second point reminds me of a speech in Synod many years ago by Dr Henry Chadwick about the danger of amnesia in the Church of England.
Nigel Goodwin
19 days ago
Ouch!
As a non-theologian, I found the report educated me a bit, and gave an overview of what different theologians may, or may not, have said over the ages.
But Mouse has nailed it.
I suggest, that in order to move forward, more theology/doctrine is needed.
I think Mouse is suggesting we digest what work has been done in the C of E on the nature of doctrine as the Church of England understands it, especially in the many important reports of previous Doctrine Commissions. He singles out the report Believing in the Church which seems to me to have been shamelessly neglected singling out the essay by the young Tom Wright. Do we simply try and reinvent the wheel?
I should have been more clear. I was being sarcastic!
Andrew Godsall
19 days ago
I like +Guli’s address and have always admired her honesty and courage. I only hope that others in the House and College can say the same things and perhaps encourage General Synod to refuse to accept the House of Bishops paper on the state of LLF, just as it refused to take note of their paper in 2017. As +Guli notes, it was that decision by Synod that set the whole LLF project in motion. And as she also notes, the CofE has gone backwards since then, and treated LGBT++ people appallingly.
David Runcorn
19 days ago
An outstanding address by + Guli – especially the section on LLF. She suggests there is now a more open culture emerging among the bishops with the freedom to say where they stand.This opennes can only be healthy. As Bonhoeffer said, ‘not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.’. She models pastoral leadership in the present context.
I agree David. The appropriate word is leadership as much as honesty and courage. It is interesting that some of the most prominent and effective leaders amongst the bishops are now women. As for the new open culture amongst the bishops. I always thought it was mistake for the bishops to hold themselves separate during the entire debate on LGBTQ issues. Going right back to the shared conversations and right through LLF one had lay and ordained in one room, and the bishops holding themselves apart in another, discussing among themselves and keeping their debates confidential. The results of that… Read more »
If this is true, and not just wishful thinking/optimism on +Chelmsford’s part, it is most certainly to be welcomed. I’m all in favour of collective responsibility for decisions reached, but that is a million miles away from people not being able to say publicly what they think as that decision is reached. I also see saying publicly what you think of the decision, once reached, as not synonymous with undermining it. Dissent does not preclude accepting collective responsibility or that your particular role requires you to uphold what has been decided by majority, in my view. Conflating those positions has… Read more »
I wish I could share this optimism. I’ve just been listening to Andrew Graystone’s recent interview with Alex Frost on You Tube and I suspect, very sadly, he’s nearer the mark – that the bishops are mainly in a kind of moral paralysis and panic that is hugely damaging to the credibility of the Church of England and the great work that is happening on the ground around the country. Mouse’s analysis of the quality of theological advice the episcopacy are being given does little to raise expectations.
David Hawkins
19 days ago
Someone once said that if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. In one of the most pivotal events of my spiritual life, I was privileged to experience the enthronement of a lesbian woman as Archbishop of Wales. God was with us on that day and I suspect everyone there felt the joy and power of something new and wonderful. I call it “the Revolution of Small Things”. Something extraordinary is stirring in Monmouth and it has the capacity to transform the Anglican Communion for the better. The Bishop of Chelmsford is generous and… Read more »
“Although I made the case in my pastoral letter that progress has been made, and I stand by that, I can also see how this might be seen, by some at least, as meagre offerings.” (Bishop of Chelmsford) Is the God who died for us on the Cross into “meagre offerings” ? I thought Christianity was all about unconditional love ? You see however well meaning and compassionate you try to be if you say that a man and a woman are welcome to celebrate their lifelong physical love for each other in a Christian marriage but a same sex… Read more »
‘she regards same sex physical love as a disability and an impediment’
That’s what I’m talking about. Where does she say this in her address?
I don’t know Bishop Guli personally, but her husband was my mum’s vicar for several years, and I’ve had a number of conversations with him on this and other subjects. I’m pretty sure this is not Guli’s position.
+Guli clerly states – “my views have [not] been a secret. I’ve been known, for some time, as someone who wants to see greater progress in the use of Prayers of Love and Faith. To see greater freedom for clergy, if they choose, to offer blessings to same sex couples and, for gay and lesbian clergy themselves, to be able to enter into same sex marriages without fear of sanctions.” David Hawkins seems to have missed this statement – along with her clear frustration that more progress has not been made (the ‘meagre crumbs’).
I also thought it was a little bit milquetoast – it seems to be the party line at the minute that LGBT people and those who find their relationships to be sinful, in one way or another, are coming at this discussion on equal footing. We aren’t. There’s a considerable power dynamic – LGBT people are very much a minority, and a persecuted one – that no-one wants to give the proper recognition it deserves. Asking us to be in unity, “even when it’s hard”, is absurd; I think it’s going to age like milk. I shouldn’t have someone telling… Read more »
I read those words, and I thought that what I was reading was not something addressed to LGBT Christians, but, in fact, to the conservative evangelicals who are so reluctant to give us any houseroom at all. Guli has a lot of very powerful conservative evangelicals in her diocese, and in saying what she did she is appealing them to stay engaged, and not to withdraw. Personally, I find it too difficult to engage with those very opposed to LGBT inclusion, but I can see that allies – amongst whom I would count Guli – are needed to continue the… Read more »
As someone who was also present, I agree with your comments on ++Cherry’s enthronement. It was a remarkable occasion and the enthusiasm for her shown by the congregation was palpable.
This is the message I am trying to get across to my own bishops. In your thinking and communication don’t just focus on the two extremes of the spectrum in your diocese, those who are themselves LGBTQ, and those strongly opposed to increased inclusion. Make sure you pay attention to that wide centre ground of the church community, and notice that a large majority of these people are very much in favour of increased LGBTQ inclusion, and are very aware of the pain and injustice which the church causes. What is your message to them, and how are you meeting… Read more »
An extract from +Lincoln’s address to diocesan Synod suggests that +Chelmsford isn’t the only one unhappy with the shenanigans… “I am conscious that the cost of this decision will be carried yet again by LGBTQI Christians, some of whom have entered into civil marriages and remain barred from office and ordination. In light of this, the House of Bishop’s past apology to this community rings hollow. Whatever December brings, General Synod may find itself in a similar situation to 2017, when it decided not to take note of a previous determination of the House of Bishops. This decisive response led… Read more »
Adrian Clarke
19 days ago
I want you to continue being the Church: ‘Reducing congregations, falling ordinand numbers, clergy wellbeing, church buildings and our parochial system, and the continuing Parish Share shortfall’. When will bishops start taking accountability for their failures?
Your understanding of bishops is frankly messianic. I have never led or belonged to a church that sat waiting in church for their bishop to increase their numbers, raise income and sort out the costs of roof repairs.
I couldn’t agree more with this David! I think that if ‘we’ need to demystify bishops and the nature of episcopal ministry the paradox being that when ‘we’ do so we enrich episcopacy (and ourselves).
Daniel Lamont
18 days ago
Thank you for the link to Church Mouse. The post crystallises the misgivings I expressed in an earlier thread and shows just how intellectually shoddy the FAOC report is.
Thank you Mouse. Your second point reminds me of a speech in Synod many years ago by Dr Henry Chadwick about the danger of amnesia in the Church of England.
Ouch!
As a non-theologian, I found the report educated me a bit, and gave an overview of what different theologians may, or may not, have said over the ages.
But Mouse has nailed it.
I suggest, that in order to move forward, more theology/doctrine is needed.
I think Mouse is suggesting we digest what work has been done in the C of E on the nature of doctrine as the Church of England understands it, especially in the many important reports of previous Doctrine Commissions. He singles out the report Believing in the Church which seems to me to have been shamelessly neglected singling out the essay by the young Tom Wright. Do we simply try and reinvent the wheel?
I should have been more clear. I was being sarcastic!
I like +Guli’s address and have always admired her honesty and courage. I only hope that others in the House and College can say the same things and perhaps encourage General Synod to refuse to accept the House of Bishops paper on the state of LLF, just as it refused to take note of their paper in 2017. As +Guli notes, it was that decision by Synod that set the whole LLF project in motion. And as she also notes, the CofE has gone backwards since then, and treated LGBT++ people appallingly.
An outstanding address by + Guli – especially the section on LLF. She suggests there is now a more open culture emerging among the bishops with the freedom to say where they stand.This opennes can only be healthy. As Bonhoeffer said, ‘not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.’. She models pastoral leadership in the present context.
I agree David. The appropriate word is leadership as much as honesty and courage. It is interesting that some of the most prominent and effective leaders amongst the bishops are now women. As for the new open culture amongst the bishops. I always thought it was mistake for the bishops to hold themselves separate during the entire debate on LGBTQ issues. Going right back to the shared conversations and right through LLF one had lay and ordained in one room, and the bishops holding themselves apart in another, discussing among themselves and keeping their debates confidential. The results of that… Read more »
If this is true, and not just wishful thinking/optimism on +Chelmsford’s part, it is most certainly to be welcomed. I’m all in favour of collective responsibility for decisions reached, but that is a million miles away from people not being able to say publicly what they think as that decision is reached. I also see saying publicly what you think of the decision, once reached, as not synonymous with undermining it. Dissent does not preclude accepting collective responsibility or that your particular role requires you to uphold what has been decided by majority, in my view. Conflating those positions has… Read more »
I wish I could share this optimism. I’ve just been listening to Andrew Graystone’s recent interview with Alex Frost on You Tube and I suspect, very sadly, he’s nearer the mark – that the bishops are mainly in a kind of moral paralysis and panic that is hugely damaging to the credibility of the Church of England and the great work that is happening on the ground around the country. Mouse’s analysis of the quality of theological advice the episcopacy are being given does little to raise expectations.
Someone once said that if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. In one of the most pivotal events of my spiritual life, I was privileged to experience the enthronement of a lesbian woman as Archbishop of Wales. God was with us on that day and I suspect everyone there felt the joy and power of something new and wonderful. I call it “the Revolution of Small Things”. Something extraordinary is stirring in Monmouth and it has the capacity to transform the Anglican Communion for the better. The Bishop of Chelmsford is generous and… Read more »
I’m curious to know where in Bishop Guli’s synod address you see this?
“Although I made the case in my pastoral letter that progress has been made, and I stand by that, I can also see how this might be seen, by some at least, as meagre offerings.” (Bishop of Chelmsford) Is the God who died for us on the Cross into “meagre offerings” ? I thought Christianity was all about unconditional love ? You see however well meaning and compassionate you try to be if you say that a man and a woman are welcome to celebrate their lifelong physical love for each other in a Christian marriage but a same sex… Read more »
‘she regards same sex physical love as a disability and an impediment’
That’s what I’m talking about. Where does she say this in her address?
I don’t know Bishop Guli personally, but her husband was my mum’s vicar for several years, and I’ve had a number of conversations with him on this and other subjects. I’m pretty sure this is not Guli’s position.
+Guli clerly states – “my views have [not] been a secret. I’ve been known, for some time, as someone who wants to see greater progress in the use of Prayers of Love and Faith. To see greater freedom for clergy, if they choose, to offer blessings to same sex couples and, for gay and lesbian clergy themselves, to be able to enter into same sex marriages without fear of sanctions.” David Hawkins seems to have missed this statement – along with her clear frustration that more progress has not been made (the ‘meagre crumbs’).
I also thought it was a little bit milquetoast – it seems to be the party line at the minute that LGBT people and those who find their relationships to be sinful, in one way or another, are coming at this discussion on equal footing. We aren’t. There’s a considerable power dynamic – LGBT people are very much a minority, and a persecuted one – that no-one wants to give the proper recognition it deserves. Asking us to be in unity, “even when it’s hard”, is absurd; I think it’s going to age like milk. I shouldn’t have someone telling… Read more »
I read those words, and I thought that what I was reading was not something addressed to LGBT Christians, but, in fact, to the conservative evangelicals who are so reluctant to give us any houseroom at all. Guli has a lot of very powerful conservative evangelicals in her diocese, and in saying what she did she is appealing them to stay engaged, and not to withdraw. Personally, I find it too difficult to engage with those very opposed to LGBT inclusion, but I can see that allies – amongst whom I would count Guli – are needed to continue the… Read more »
As someone who was also present, I agree with your comments on ++Cherry’s enthronement. It was a remarkable occasion and the enthusiasm for her shown by the congregation was palpable.
This is the message I am trying to get across to my own bishops. In your thinking and communication don’t just focus on the two extremes of the spectrum in your diocese, those who are themselves LGBTQ, and those strongly opposed to increased inclusion. Make sure you pay attention to that wide centre ground of the church community, and notice that a large majority of these people are very much in favour of increased LGBTQ inclusion, and are very aware of the pain and injustice which the church causes. What is your message to them, and how are you meeting… Read more »
An extract from +Lincoln’s address to diocesan Synod suggests that +Chelmsford isn’t the only one unhappy with the shenanigans… “I am conscious that the cost of this decision will be carried yet again by LGBTQI Christians, some of whom have entered into civil marriages and remain barred from office and ordination. In light of this, the House of Bishop’s past apology to this community rings hollow. Whatever December brings, General Synod may find itself in a similar situation to 2017, when it decided not to take note of a previous determination of the House of Bishops. This decisive response led… Read more »
I want you to continue being the Church: ‘Reducing congregations, falling ordinand numbers, clergy wellbeing, church buildings and our parochial system, and the continuing Parish Share shortfall’. When will bishops start taking accountability for their failures?
Your understanding of bishops is frankly messianic. I have never led or belonged to a church that sat waiting in church for their bishop to increase their numbers, raise income and sort out the costs of roof repairs.
I couldn’t agree more with this David! I think that if ‘we’ need to demystify bishops and the nature of episcopal ministry the paradox being that when ‘we’ do so we enrich episcopacy (and ourselves).
Thank you for the link to Church Mouse. The post crystallises the misgivings I expressed in an earlier thread and shows just how intellectually shoddy the FAOC report is.