Passing the sniff test assumes that the increase in young people attendance recorded applies across the board of C of E churches and other denominations. History shows that revivals tend to happen outside of traditional C of E churches, so it would be somewhat surprising if lots of young people were suddenly drawn to traditional C of E daily prayer services. But New Wine and HTB C of E churches after decades of renewal appear to be more ‘revival ready’ than has historically been the case and it seems more likely that these churches along with Pentecostal churches will be… Read more »
RC growth around here entirely fuelled by immigration (mostly Polish), so much so that local RC church is alive rather than on its knees, RC primary has expanded, and local RC secondary no longer needs to take lots of prods. However, this influx has ceased since final Brexit, and time will tell how numbers hold up.
Pam Wilkinson
20 days ago
Reading about the future of theology made me wonder what the justification (in academic terms) is for not treating theology as a specialist branch of philosophy?
As you’ve yet to get a reply from a philosopher or theologian, I’ll try this answer … Theology is to philosophy perhaps what physics is to maths. Some physicists are good mathematicians in their own right, and some theologians are good philosophers. Maths is a vast set of interconnections between things, and the interconnections are true due to sheer logic (eg A=B, B=C so A=C). But physics contains other things aside from logical connections, which simply reflect how the universe is, for example, that energy is conserved. Likewise, philosophy explores logical links between constructs that range from the abstract to… Read more »
Makes sense to me (a physicist)!. But what of unintended consequences? What would happen if a department of theology and department of philosophy were to be combined? What would departmental meetings look like? What would candidate evaluation look like (undergraduate and department)?
much of it is on Jesus, scripture, languages and comparative religion, with only one course covering ethics (and also systematic theology) and no direct mention of philosophy.
But they also do a degree in philosophy and theology, which seems to be run by the two faculties working together
The Church Mouse is surely correct, as usual. When it comes to Professor Voas, the Church does seem to want to have its cake and eat it. Voas and Watt are cited regularly and opportunistically by those within the Church wanting to press for more stipendiaries, but when Voas decides to critique surveys which were probably designed to boost the self-esteem of the churches, the response from the ecclesiastical authorities has either been tumbleweed, or has been curt and defensive. What a surprise! In my experience only a tiny number of Anglican churches have a critical mass of young people,… Read more »
You make the valid observation that only a tiny number of Anglican churches have a critical mass of young people. This is probably true also of those in their 20’s and 30’s. Certainly the statistics from the latest October counting confirmed this. The vast majority of Church of England churches appear to have fewer than 5 children worshipping with them on a typical Sunday. Decline and eventual closure would appear to be in prospect. So all the more important to learn from the growing churches and to encourage larger churches (100+) to be prepared to graft onto or into the… Read more »
I know I will be regarded as an unrealistic old fuddy duddy, but pen and paper is more secure. Endless stories of data breaches suggests that computerised records are not secure. Another method should be used for such important matters.
Computerised systems are not secure – it staggers me that every organisation going is willing to take the risk of all the data it holds being vulnerable to hackers for whom personal data is gold dust.
To me it looks like a very basic human error, one that I’ve made myself dozens of times but never for anything so important. I am glad that when I send an email from my church email this error isn’t possible.
It is surprising to me that if a church thinks it’s important to get this right, a firm of solicitors doesn’t. Maybe they have a higher opinion of themselves than the church does of its assorted administrators, paid and voluntary.
Paper is also not secure. Paper gets left on trains, lost in the post, dumped unshredded in recycling or waste bins, sent to the wrong address, left on a communal photocopier etc etc. Electronic data breaches are easier to detect because computer systems have automated logs. There’s also the fact that DBS checks can only happen at the scale they do because of computerisation. If it were necessary to contact every police force in the country by hand written letter and every force then had to manually search through paper archives for records there would be no time for safeguarding… Read more »
The breach appears to be related to DBS applications processed over the past 8 or so months. I received an email about it this morning from an CofE organisation that doesn’t use APCS.
Yes, between last December and this May, or so I gather. This probably includes me since I gave my details to APCS in April. But I have heard nothing.
Froghole
20 days ago
The decline of theology at the undergraduate level is of little surprise. It emerged as a separate subject in the third quarter of the 19th century as part of the wider shift towards professional qualifications, including for the clergy. This coincided with the de facto ‘disestablishment’ of the Church in the universities: the two phenomena being not entirely unrelated. For a while theology faculties constituted a clerical kraal within overwhelmingly secular universities, but this redoubt could only be defended for so long. In recent decades it has perforce become a much more diverse subject in order to maintain demand (and,… Read more »
When I taught at the Divinity faculty at St Andrews, I was given a brief look-in by the Kirk committee as part of the interview/appointment process. I was struck at how anemic and awkward it seemed, as if they knew they were just onlookers. The number of students intending ordination was perhaps 5%, I woud come to learn. I had come from Yale Divinity school where that number was probably 50-60%. St Mary’s had of course historically been an educational training college related to service in the Church. Once that link is cut, and throw in the collapse of the… Read more »
Simon Dawson
20 days ago
Ref the discussion on church growth and young people, I have just returned from a week-long retreat for gay men, focused on building connections and community, and becoming our more authentic selves. For many people such work includes an interest in some form of spirituality. On the week there were conversations about how a increasing number of young adults seemed to be becoming interested in this sort of work. Perhaps the discussion is not just about more young adults joining the C of E, but a wider discussion about more young adults seeking greater authenticity and community and perhaps spirituality… Read more »
Passing the sniff test assumes that the increase in young people attendance recorded applies across the board of C of E churches and other denominations. History shows that revivals tend to happen outside of traditional C of E churches, so it would be somewhat surprising if lots of young people were suddenly drawn to traditional C of E daily prayer services. But New Wine and HTB C of E churches after decades of renewal appear to be more ‘revival ready’ than has historically been the case and it seems more likely that these churches along with Pentecostal churches will be… Read more »
RC growth around here entirely fuelled by immigration (mostly Polish), so much so that local RC church is alive rather than on its knees, RC primary has expanded, and local RC secondary no longer needs to take lots of prods. However, this influx has ceased since final Brexit, and time will tell how numbers hold up.
Reading about the future of theology made me wonder what the justification (in academic terms) is for not treating theology as a specialist branch of philosophy?
As you’ve yet to get a reply from a philosopher or theologian, I’ll try this answer … Theology is to philosophy perhaps what physics is to maths. Some physicists are good mathematicians in their own right, and some theologians are good philosophers. Maths is a vast set of interconnections between things, and the interconnections are true due to sheer logic (eg A=B, B=C so A=C). But physics contains other things aside from logical connections, which simply reflect how the universe is, for example, that energy is conserved. Likewise, philosophy explores logical links between constructs that range from the abstract to… Read more »
Makes sense to me (a physicist)!. But what of unintended consequences? What would happen if a department of theology and department of philosophy were to be combined? What would departmental meetings look like? What would candidate evaluation look like (undergraduate and department)?
Yes, taking a look at the outline of the Oxford undergraduate theology degree
https://www.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxford/field/field_document/Theology%20and%20Religion%20CIS%202023.pdf
much of it is on Jesus, scripture, languages and comparative religion, with only one course covering ethics (and also systematic theology) and no direct mention of philosophy.
But they also do a degree in philosophy and theology, which seems to be run by the two faculties working together
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/course-listing/philosophy-and-theology
The Church Mouse is surely correct, as usual. When it comes to Professor Voas, the Church does seem to want to have its cake and eat it. Voas and Watt are cited regularly and opportunistically by those within the Church wanting to press for more stipendiaries, but when Voas decides to critique surveys which were probably designed to boost the self-esteem of the churches, the response from the ecclesiastical authorities has either been tumbleweed, or has been curt and defensive. What a surprise! In my experience only a tiny number of Anglican churches have a critical mass of young people,… Read more »
You make the valid observation that only a tiny number of Anglican churches have a critical mass of young people. This is probably true also of those in their 20’s and 30’s. Certainly the statistics from the latest October counting confirmed this. The vast majority of Church of England churches appear to have fewer than 5 children worshipping with them on a typical Sunday. Decline and eventual closure would appear to be in prospect. So all the more important to learn from the growing churches and to encourage larger churches (100+) to be prepared to graft onto or into the… Read more »
Talking of data breaches, there’s been an absolutely massive one that will affect enormous numbers of PCC members and other church workers. Anyone whose diocese has used APCS for its DBS checking. The Church Times says “hundreds” could be affected, but I’d think it more likely to be thousands of us. Name, address, DoB, passport, driving licence and NI numbers all potentially compromised. https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/29-august/news/uk/cyber-attack-leaves-hundreds-of-parishioners-at-risk-of-identity-theft
I know I will be regarded as an unrealistic old fuddy duddy, but pen and paper is more secure. Endless stories of data breaches suggests that computerised records are not secure. Another method should be used for such important matters.
Computerised systems are not secure – it staggers me that every organisation going is willing to take the risk of all the data it holds being vulnerable to hackers for whom personal data is gold dust.
To me it looks like a very basic human error, one that I’ve made myself dozens of times but never for anything so important. I am glad that when I send an email from my church email this error isn’t possible.
It is surprising to me that if a church thinks it’s important to get this right, a firm of solicitors doesn’t. Maybe they have a higher opinion of themselves than the church does of its assorted administrators, paid and voluntary.
The trouble with pen, paper and mail these days is that postal deliveries are few and far between…
Paper is also not secure. Paper gets left on trains, lost in the post, dumped unshredded in recycling or waste bins, sent to the wrong address, left on a communal photocopier etc etc. Electronic data breaches are easier to detect because computer systems have automated logs. There’s also the fact that DBS checks can only happen at the scale they do because of computerisation. If it were necessary to contact every police force in the country by hand written letter and every force then had to manually search through paper archives for records there would be no time for safeguarding… Read more »
The breach appears to be related to DBS applications processed over the past 8 or so months. I received an email about it this morning from an CofE organisation that doesn’t use APCS.
Yes, between last December and this May, or so I gather. This probably includes me since I gave my details to APCS in April. But I have heard nothing.
The decline of theology at the undergraduate level is of little surprise. It emerged as a separate subject in the third quarter of the 19th century as part of the wider shift towards professional qualifications, including for the clergy. This coincided with the de facto ‘disestablishment’ of the Church in the universities: the two phenomena being not entirely unrelated. For a while theology faculties constituted a clerical kraal within overwhelmingly secular universities, but this redoubt could only be defended for so long. In recent decades it has perforce become a much more diverse subject in order to maintain demand (and,… Read more »
Even half a century ago Theology was regarded as a soft subject with low demand & low entry requirements.
When I taught at the Divinity faculty at St Andrews, I was given a brief look-in by the Kirk committee as part of the interview/appointment process. I was struck at how anemic and awkward it seemed, as if they knew they were just onlookers. The number of students intending ordination was perhaps 5%, I woud come to learn. I had come from Yale Divinity school where that number was probably 50-60%. St Mary’s had of course historically been an educational training college related to service in the Church. Once that link is cut, and throw in the collapse of the… Read more »
Ref the discussion on church growth and young people, I have just returned from a week-long retreat for gay men, focused on building connections and community, and becoming our more authentic selves. For many people such work includes an interest in some form of spirituality. On the week there were conversations about how a increasing number of young adults seemed to be becoming interested in this sort of work. Perhaps the discussion is not just about more young adults joining the C of E, but a wider discussion about more young adults seeking greater authenticity and community and perhaps spirituality… Read more »