One thing I don’t see considered is the extent to which the fall in attendance represents an actual reduction in committed Christians or whether the fall is just making visible the relatively few committed Christians there have been for some time?
Perhaps the fall in attendance at Church of England churches may also be due to a movement of committed Christians to other non-Anglican churches. Although it also appears that the closure of churches resulted in the less committed finding other things to do on a Sunday and they have simply continued with those new habits. Again, as you have rightly said, different approaches are required.
Allan Sheath
20 days ago
Clergy do read between the lines – and in ways that lay people do not – when seemingly neutral words can appear freighted with meaning. The Archdeacon will advise on this, or if s/he is felt to be unsympathetic to the tradition, perhaps a retired priest who knows the parish(es). Take the word ‘minister’, used – no doubt entirely innocently – by a highly experienced lay consultant in the CT article, but which can cause a priest in the broad Catholic tradition to turn the page. Similarly, frequent mentions of ‘Jesus’ can suggest ‘HTB-light’ to some clergy – ‘Christ’ might… Read more »
This elderly layperson can also decode, I can tell by looking at church porch whether it’s my churchmanship, also nomenclature for current incumbent, collar or not, vestments? chasuble? Comes from 70 years in a pew in 5 different dioceses and late husband was churchwarden/treasurer in 3 different parishes and diocese. I’m afraid I turn a jaundiced eye on current events in CofE.
“He maketh his angels spirits : and his ministers a flaming fire” from BCP Psalm 104, (a personal favourite), as set for the Feast of Pentecost. As a layman, I can fully pick up the nuances of ‘minister’ and ‘priest’, but the rubric of the BCP itself appears to use them interchangeably, and other C of E material does so frequently.
It might seem that some ecumenical compromise was at work, but I have noticed that “priest” is always used in the BCP for any sacramental function.
Interestingly, I have the opposite reaction. To me, ‘Christ’ conjures up the theological Christ of the letters of Paul. ‘Jesus’ refers to the figure I meet in the gospels, especially the synoptics. Christ is the image of the invisible God who dies for my sins according to the scriptures. Jesus speaks the words of the Sermon on the Mount, reaches out to the marginalised, treats women and children with respect, and confronts the scribes and Pharisees. ‘Christ’ was the most common usage in my evangelical youth (“Have you accepted Christ as your Saviour?”), but “All for Jesus, all for Jesus”… Read more »
Thank you for this, Tim. A dull world if we were all the same. I suspect my reaction may have something to do with experiencing HTB worship with its frequent talk of ‘Cheesus’. Less immediately and more importantly, ‘Christ’ – rather than conjuring up the drier aspects of the theological Pauline figure – speaks powerfully to me of the risen Christ, alleluia! Could this be because I worship in a more liturgical church than the Mennonite tradition? As someone who also finds their heart moved by the Jesus we meet in the synoptics, I wonder how you find the practice… Read more »
I totally agree with you about the capitalisation, although C.S. Lewis would disagree with me; he did it all the time.
On ‘Christ’, I note the significant change between RSV and NRSV translations, where NRSV changes many instances of ‘Christ’ to ‘Messiah’. I find that very helpful.
Capitals used to be standard usage for pronouns referring to the Deity, but usage has now changed. When I became editorial assistant at a Christian publishing company in 1977 I was shocked to be told not to use caps; to me lower case looked irreverent. 50 years later I now think caps look strange and intrusive. But it isn’t surprising if older people brought up on ‘Him/His’ continue to use it, and it need not indicate any distance or coldness towards God.
My understanding is that capitalization of pronouns referring to God and Jesus is a relatively recent practice. The King James Bible did not do so. It became common in the19th century. And, as you notice, the practice has now largely been abandoned. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverential_capitalization
There are three, possibly more, hymns and songs with the opening words “All for Jesus” including one from the US and a modern Irish one. The verse you quote is from one of the several congregational hymns included in John Stainer’s “Crucifixion” – all of the libretto of the Crucifixion and the hymns were written by the Revd W J Sparrow-Simpson and the music by John Stainer, but in England, at least, the work is universally known as “Stainer’s Crucifixion”. Sparrow-Simpson was a ‘Minor Canon’ of St Paul’s Cathedral, London and Sir John Stainer its organist. Until relatively recently the… Read more »
Don’t remind me. Apart from the glorious ray of sunlight that is ‘God so loved the world’ it is a dire work. Even Stainer thought so! We at least used to alternate it with the far superior ‘The Last Supper’ by Eric Thiman, which also, being shorter and thematically appropriate, could be followed by Benediction.
“Dire” a very unkind and I’m not sure universally accepted view. I would be surprised if ‘Crucifixion’ ever preceded Benediction.
So far as the music is concerned, Stainer was a devout Christian who knelt and prayed in the organ loft before playing services at St Paul’s Cathedral. I don’t know the Thiman work. My late father remembered singing in JH Maunder’s “Olivet to Calvary” in the early years of last century, on one occasion in the presence of the great man himself. Now I have heard very mixed views of that work …
Yes, having sung in a church choir in my youth, I’m very familiar with the history you cite (I sang in Stainer’s entire ‘Crucifixion’ several times, and in the piece ‘God so loved the world’ almost every Good Friday). I”m not sure, though, whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with my point, which is that the use of the name ‘Jesus’ is not only evangelical – Sparrow-Simpson was an Anglo-Catholic. I also note that when I was young, older Anglicans often referred to Jesus reverently as ‘Our Lord’ (capitalising both words) (I find it often in the letters of CS… Read more »
Tim, I wasn’t previously aware of Sparrow-Simpson’s Anglo-Catholicism; in fact it was something of a surprise. I certainly never associated the Crucifixion with Anglo-Catholicism.
I’m aware of your early background (wasn’t it Coventry, as also the late Fr Ron Smith of blessed memory?), and it had occurred to me that you might have already known everything I said. I was never in the choir and have only sung the congregational hymns in Crucifixion, the first time more than 70 years ago!
His Wikipedia article says he was a strong Anglo-Catholic and in fact edited a well-known A-C periodical for a while.
I was raised in Leicester diocese; my dad was ordained in Leicester Cathedral in 1965 when I was nearly seven, but he left the diocese two years later and we never lived there again. My diocese as a teenager was Chelmsford, but since the 1990s I’ve had the closest connection to the Diocese of Peterborough as my mum and dad moved to Oakham after he retired.
The Unlikely Fr
20 days ago
Every member of the clergy knows that Mark Twain’s -supposed- utterings on there being 3 types of lies was incomplete, there are of course 4:
During my own parish’s very recent interregnum, I wrote the Parish Profile. Behind it sat quite a thick folder of what I thought was interesting trend analysis of attendance, money, inventory and numbers, plus raw data on community engagement, etc. We offered to share this with the applicants when they came for their inspection visit, precisely so that we could avoid any later suggestion of deception. The Archdeacon firmly discouraged such revelations: apparently, “it would confuse the applicants who would have had a very long day.” We would have been more detailed and honest but the archdeacon vetoed it. We… Read more »
My advice to anyone applying for a clergy post is ‘what is it that you’re not telling me’? We all know that there is information which doesn’t get into the parish profile, there is an onus on applicants to be curious too.
I left my first parish in 1987. My successor arrived May 1998 and is still there. I left my last parish in 0ct 2009 and my successor is still there! I did 9 years then 13. I suspect there are a lot of factors including age, children’s education, spouses work, elderly parents, besides what’s happening in the parishes themselves.
The Church of Scotland had the model of “unrestricted calls” but are now calling ministers for a maximum of seven years which can be extended. There is no ideal model. My own background is as a Methodist manse kid. There ministers got 5 year term also renewable. It’s a complex area because of factors like Church politics and giving the ministerial family good stability. Ministers also need around 7 years to get the best from themselves. The issue I have is I don’t think it’s an equal relationship between the minister and the congregation. Each side has the ability to… Read more »
Nigel Jones
20 days ago
It’s striking that both of these articles refer to the need to be clear about the underlying raison d’etre of the church… and they do not agree on what that is! The Church Times article quotes Stephen Pullin writing of “followers of Jesus, and their primary purpose, which is to help people come to faith in Jesus.” Hmm. What about the (spiritually mature) people in my church who are involved in the local interfaith group? The other article has a broader vision of church people participating in the growth of the Kingdom of God, which presumably includes quite a bit… Read more »
The kingdom of God is about power otherwise what’s the point? In the midst of doing kingdom work people seem to just turn up and become Christians. I sat next to a person this morning who at the start of the service was not a Christian but after taking Communion was. It was a privilege to welcome him into the church. This is now happening every week, regardless of message. But many dying churches put up a self fulfilling ‘do not disturb’ church notice.
Do you not believe that people convert to Islam in this country? I am really not sure what you are trying to say or why Tommy Robinstein has entered the discussion. All that is required to become a Muslim is the recitation of the Shahada, eight words of Arabic.
You said it is preposterous that anyone would become a Christian or a Muslim as a result of visiting a church or a mosque, even though Adrian had just given an example of this happening. Why do you think it is preposterous? If someone wanted to become a Muslim, do you not think a mosque might be a place they would naturally turn to? And it is verifiable fact that a significant number of people in the UK do convert to Islam. Several of my neighbours are converts. One of the servers at my church became a Muslim a few… Read more »
A friend of mine got married to a Muslim in a telephone call to Pakistan. Paperwork took a little longer.
This is all a bit silly. Many instances in NT of people following Jesus on an impulse. Many cases of people committing to Jesus in evangelistic missions. Are we going to say they are not Christians? Yes, they are baby Christians, but still Christians.
I spent a while trying to figure that out. It may reflect a line in a Graham Kendrick song about building a kingdom of power, not words – presumably meaning getting things done, not talking about it.
Within the kingdom lies the ultimate power, but there’s more to it than that, as explained very memorably by St Paul
I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
I’d never noticed that Kendrick’s line comes from there, thanks. Perhaps useful to consider the kingdom’s power in the context of the beatitudes’ power inversion, alluded to in 1 Corinthians 1.
‘God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, God chose what is low and despised in the world,’
Yes, it’s inverted, but it’s power. I Cor 1.18, 1.24, 2 Cor 12.9.
It’s love, not coercion, gift not demand. God’s grace, not our possession. But when granted, we should expect that dynamic things will happen to and through and around us?
Agreed. The power is there to build the kingdom. Can I heal the sick, comfort those who mourn, and accompany and bring joy to the humble and poor as we journey toward our inheritance? I suppose Adrian’s point is that the power is needed.
“The power is there to build the kingdom.” What power? The only power I’m aware of is the power that having faith in the resurrection gives us to be willing to love, to suffer and even, if need be, to die, for the sake of others. That’s the power that Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Alexei Navalny had. Is there some other power Christians have that i don’t know about?
Newton and Faraday”s work to understand the universe;
Wilberforce’s abolitionist movement;
Dr Martin Luther King’s civil rights movement;
Billy Graham’s evangelistic campaigns.
All these people trusted in God, put in the work and changed the world. In lesser ways we all are all called to do that, including suffering for it when needed. O course one might argue these are just people’s achievements with no other source of power, but they didn’t.
I think that, scripturally, power is associated with the gift of the holy spirit, empowering apostles to witness, in word and deed, to the resurrection of Christ. Proclamation, signs, wonders, suffering and healing all come within its ambit.
I’m not sure what you mean by your ‘seriously?’ comment, Matthew. I’m open to correction but, as I understand it, Navalny knew that returning to Russia might get him killed but he did so anyway in order to stand up to Putin’s corrupt regime- and he was indeed murdered. Interestingly his widow said that “his spirit lives on”. It all sounds quite like Jesus to me (unless you think Jesus went to the cross in order to be a sacrifice for the sins of the world,or something like that: I’d argue that that kind of interpretation of Jesus came later.)
Thankyou for clarifying, Adrian. However i still do not understand the point you are trying to make or how it relates to my post to which you were replying. Perhaps you mean to contradict my assertion that the kingdom of God is about being prepared to die? If so, that could be an interesting conversation to pursue.
I don’t think you can talk about power of the kingdom of God without people exercising power in some same form over it. Jesus was well aware of it, in relation to John the Baptist for example. Resurrection indicates a willingness to die to self in order to allow the power of the Holy Spirit to work in them. In contrast institutions have their own self preserving power structures and numerical growth threatens these power structures. Consequently I don’t see the C of embracing growth any time soon. If there is a power issue, it is not in pursuing numerical… Read more »
“Remember this: There are always two worlds. The world as it operates is power; the world as it should be is love. The secret of Reign-of-God life is how we can live in both – simultaneously. The world as it is will always be built on power, ego, success. Yet, we also must keep our eyes intently on the world as it should be – what Jesus calls the Reign of God. Power apart from love leads to brutality, but love that does not engage with power is mere sentimentality. A lot of Christians today are still trapped in one… Read more »
That’s huge and thank you for the reminder that the Spirirs work doesn’t depend on ‘us’. Also the gracious acknowledgement that this is happening ‘regardless of message”. We worship at a Cathedral where there is a variety of preachers and preaching styles but it still happens. People come – quietly and without fuss, get drawn into conversations and moved by the music – and stay. There’s certainly not a ‘do not disturb” noticed as it can be quite challenging. The same is happening in the church I retired from ten years ago.
Stephen Pullin is wrong I suggest, for the reasons stated in my blog, which seem to me compelling, at least as an account of the New Testament picture! But you are right that it is an easy default for those anxious about the institution.
“followers of Jesus, and their primary purpose, which is to help people come to faith in Jesus.” Is it? Isn’t it to put Jesus’ words and instructions into action, to live out the Gospel, mirroring how Christ lived?
I agree that, as you say, it can be both- but the discussion was around Stephen Pullin’s assertion that Christians “helping other people come to faith in Jesus” is their primary purpose. I would argue that that is faithfulness to the teaching and example of our Lord.
Thankyou for reminding me of these words, which did make me stop and reflect and wonder whether I was wrong, and whether “helping other people come to faith in Jesus” can legitimately be said to be the Christian’s “primary purpose” after all. But thinking about the ministry of Jesus, who is the one we claim to follow… Firstly, of course Jesus was not inviting the disciples to join him in calling people to become Christians. Also I’m always a bit wary of the so-called Great Commission, because its centrality and its being called that is an interpretation of one verse.… Read more »
Pressed post early after quoting John 20.31. I do think that your description of what ‘faith in Jesus’ might be doesn’t do full justice to what the biblical witness in toto reveals, which is to do with trust in a person as messiah and lord, resulting in forgiveness and salvation, and membership of a new reconciled community of witness, evangelism and nurture in the faith. The justice, goodness, truth and love we speak of can’t stand separate to this, since they flow from God in Christ, and grow within us as we are sanctified by the Spirit, which is the… Read more »
Simon Dawson
19 days ago
On the theme of transparency within the parish profile and recruitment process, I was struck by this sentence in Madeleine Davies’ article. A parish representative “was struck by the fact that he had to push for a question about LLF to be included in the interview — which was not something recommended by the bishop or archdeacon.” When such issues are dividing the church, surely it is necessary to address them when recruiting a new priest – to ensure the best possible fit. Could anybody help me by suggesting reasons why the Bishop and Archdeacon might recommend silence. Exactly the… Read more »
I’m a Baptist and we are appointed directly by local churches. I was a bit flummoxed 10 years ago when candidating for a new appointment and being invited for what I told would be an informal chat. It turned out to be a formal interview with the Diaconate (= PCC) for which I was in no way prepared. And the very first question was, “What are your views on equal marriage”!! (They didn’t call me, by the way). I did have an informal chat with the leaders of the church I’m now serving (followed later by a more formal interview… Read more »
Could it be that said Bishop and Archdeacon didn’t want to further narrow the pool of available clergy? A case of anxiety being a poor teacher perhaps.
Allan, I think I agree with you, but is that good advice or not? If you get the wrong priest imposed on you it is as bad for the priest (possibly worse) than for the congregation. About a decade ago when my own benefice was recruiting for a new Priest-in-Charge I was invited by my ordained colleagues to add mention of my then civil partnership to my LLM mini-CV in the parish profile. I had left it out, not wanting to be controversial. But it was explained to me by my colleagues that mentioning my relationship would be an subtle… Read more »
We explicitly wrote into our profile that the next incumbent can be male or female, and single, married or in a civil partnership. Given that we were a “resolution parish” during the last two vacancies that sends a double signal. (And if any clergy readers might consider a move, I’d be happy to send more details — I am not one of the parish reps.)
In defence of said Bishop and Archdeacon, at least they engaged with the process, albeit in a way that may well have been unhelpful. Contrast this with a parish in which the Bishop allowed a priest fundamentally unsympathetic to the parish’s tradition to be put in. Result: misery for both parties.
I’m struggling to see what a priest could usefully do in a benefice of 21 parishes. The mileage involved on presumed country roads would be daunting. How could you remember people’s names when you saw them so infrequently? You’d feel like a taxi dispatcher allocating a resource each time a call came in. Ambitious clergy are still going to be drawn to single church benefices, leaving the ‘difficult to place’ with these mammoth jobs.
Realist
18 days ago
A dear friend sent me a link yesterday to an advert that has gone live for a new priest for one of the most toxic parishes in their Diocese. The amount of misrepresentation was utterly staggering – welcoming and friendly, apparently, and the new incumbent will receive strong support from all and sundry! Either there has been a wholesale clear out (or walk out) or the poor appointee is in for quite a shock… I don’t blame the people for this – they’re deluded but have a vested interest in filling the post. I blame the Archdeacon. In my day,… Read more »
Realist, I can understand what you are saying, but how realistic is it to expect that sort of support from the hierarchy. My team benefice is about to go into vacancy after 17 years with the same priest, and with one Bishop and two Arch-deacons covering virtually all of Wiltshire and Dorset I can’t see how they can give our inexperienced team much mentoring and support.
Indeed, Simon – I think I’d settle for just some honesty. We can all be utterly deluded – about ourselves as well as our churches. But without somebody who is a critical friend holding up the proverbial mirror, we never get beyond that delusion. That’s the role that an Archdeacon, even now, can have as they are supposed to sign off Parish Profiles as not utter works of fiction. Some still do, and thank God for them. Others, like the one responsible for the parish in my friend’s Diocese either shy away from it or just can’t be bothered so… Read more »
Section 11 of the Patronage (Benefices) Measure 1986 lays down that it is the PCC’s role to “preparing a statement describing the conditions, needs and traditions of the parish”, i.e. to prepare the parish profile. The Measure does not give any role to the Archdeacon in this process.
On my reading that provision (indeed the whole Measure) only applies to a benefice with a registered patron or patrons. Not sure where that leaves us with other parishes and PCCs.
The first clause of the Measure states that the register records for “every benefice in the diocese the person who is the patron of the benefice”. That rather implies that every parish does have a patron. Only patrons who are registered may exercise their right, and if no one was registered then the diocesan Board of Patronage became the patron and was registered as such (Section 25).
Yes, and similarly even when the bishop is not the patron but exercises the right of presentation (because the patron has not done so), then it is again a “collation”. (I am slightly intrigued as to whether our next incumbent will be instituted or collated. We shall see.)
Indeed so, but my experience is Parish Profiles are signed off either officially or informally by someone in the senior staff. That’s been the case for decades, and still is. I also think the point about delusion and never getting beyond it holds true. After all, whose office desk (or computer) do the complaints end up on….the Archdeacon.
The archdeacon was invited to our recent Section 11 meeting, and was invited to express his thoughts, and he had previously seen drafts of the profile. He was not asked to approve it and he had no vote in the process let alone a veto.
OK, but would a parish want to proceed to advert/shortlist/ interview before checking that the archdeacon isn’t going to tell possible candidates that s/he disagrees with the profile?
A lot do these days, Surrealist. In fact, in the recent past friendly Archdeacons have warned me off parishes I’ve looked at, because they’ve included things that aren’t true. Simon – that’s fine, perhaps your Diocese is different. But that has been my experience across quite a few different dioceses over quite a lot of years now. Don’t forget I’m also talking about practice further back than recent years. In recent years, I don’t think Archdeacons have really been that bothered what goes in. Some of the profiles I’ve seen going further back (admittedly they’re in the minority) have had… Read more »
Jon Smith
18 days ago
On clergy recruitment I’m interested in finding the data to understand the issue. Does anybody know where to find the data on the number of people annually being trained by the CofE to be priests versus the number of clergy retiring?
partial answer: before covid we had about 600 people entering ordination training annually. Now it is 300. There is much speculation as to why but no clear answer. (I suspect it is multiple factors). We are seeing a small uptick in numbers and a DDO I know reports seeing lots of potential candidates. (LLM numbers by contrast have generally increased it seems.) Residential college numbers have collapsed while regional course numbers have fared a bit better – generally speaking. Look at the leavers photos from various TEIs. As one who teaches on a regional course, I do not say this… Read more »
It’s interesting you mention LLM numbers, Charles. In the Diocese I talked about in my other post on this thread, they have had the lowest number of deacons in over a decade ordained this time round. My friend, who incidentally knows you through the TEI world, though not the same TEI (I’ll say no more as they won’t thank me for anything I say that might identify them!), commented that they think it’s because there has been a major push on LLM in recent years in their Diocese, to the extent that the perhaps-unintended message from their senior staff has… Read more »
The house of Bishops in May received an update on clergy numbers (unpublished). I have submitted a question for the July meeting of General Synod on the point. There used to be an annual publication which went into detail.
thanks – i was in a meeting yesterday where we learned… In 2025, across all 9 residential colleges there were only 17 new full time ordinands (some colleges will have also recruited a few part time ordinands) One TEI has 145 unfilled ordinand places – currently TEIs get 80% of the fee for a place unfilled. This will end in the 2027 academic year – was due to end this year but there has been a stay of execution Hence.. a financial day of reckoning is coming very fast once the 80% subvention ends this time next year. Residential colleges… Read more »
Lincoln and Salisbury closing was a mistake in my opinion ( though I’m biased). Lincoln was going to move to Sheffield which was sensible. The result was the loss of two middle of the road/ moderate Catholic colleges. I wonder how many ordinands are at Oak Hill. They seem outnumbered by non Anglicans and when I was a DDO in London we were rather concerned about how strong the Anglican ethos was. ( I noticed several of my ordinands who went there are now ministering in non C of E evangelical settings. ) . Residential training does seem on the… Read more »
According to the answer to the GS question, in 2024-25 Oak Hill had 16 ordinands, making it the 6th largest college out of 9, or the 4th smallest. Lots of FIEC students there.
To save people the trouble of scrolling through the Synod report to find Q.128, here, in descending order, are the numbers of ordinands in each institution:
Wycliffe 46
Trinity 31
Ridley 30
Cranmer 22
Westcott 19
Mirfield 18
Oak Hill 16
Cuddesdon 14
Queens 12
Staggers 12
The most recent Ministry statistics are available here: https://www.churchofengland.org/media/44132 (dating from the end of April). In the past, there was an annual Ministry Statistics publication, which took a great deal of time to compile. Now that we have a National Register of Clergy it is much quicker to extract various statistics (once the necessary reports have been designed and built), so we have been able to publish numbers more quickly and more often. Developing additional reports from the system is still a work in progress, so the current set of tables does not contain everything that used to be in… Read more »
There used to be a timeline and a projection of future numbers. There used to be a system for allocating numbers to dioceses to avoid distortions (not sure how well that worked). When “From Anecdote to Evidence” was published back in 2014 there was a graphic that showed that dioceses were expecting and planning for significantly higher numbers of clergy than the best projections suggested would be available – and by a significant margin. Some actions were taken to try to influence the trend, and they may have had a small effect. However the trend of falling clergy numbers has… Read more »
Fr Dexter Bracey
18 days ago
It seems to me that the process of recruiting parish clergy is badly broken. I know of attractive parishes that have struggled to attract applications from clergy, and capable clergy struggling to find suitable vacancies. How have we created such a state of affairs?
One issue is that the number of available clergy is reducing – Charles Read has commented on this thread on the number of candidates being trained for ordained ministry. The number entering training has been fewer than the number leaving ministry almost every year in recent times. That means more “holes” and “holes” staying unfilled for longer.
I understand that. What I don’t understand is how we appear to have a concurrent shortage of posts for clergy looking for a move, particularly for those coming to the end of curacy.
There are posts vacant. But whether they are in the right places, and of the right theological/liturgical/missiological bent for the clergy looking for posts at a given time, is another question. En masse, the clergy are less mobile than a generation or two ago, when a higher proportion were younger, singler or more likely to be married to non working wives.
I think you are right and if it takes a year or longer to replace an incumbent, and an incumbency lasts on average 8? years, then parishes are statistically vacant 11% of the time. What typical business or charity would regularly replace its CEO so slowly and yet still expect to flourish? I appreciate that the parish church is not a typical business or charity but a sign, instrument and foretaste of the Kingdom of Heaven, but even so.
Rather late to this discussion but: I was in the congregation of my last parish for over 20 years. Of that time, about 20% of it was without an incumbent due to several interregnums. Meanwhile, a larger evangelical church nearby had their new incumbent appointed before the previous one had left, because it was apparently such an important enterprise that it could not be left without an incumbent. We received the implied message loud and clear about our apparent importance.
One thing I don’t see considered is the extent to which the fall in attendance represents an actual reduction in committed Christians or whether the fall is just making visible the relatively few committed Christians there have been for some time?
As well as a reduction in non-committed churchgoers, there may be an increase in committed Christians who have stopped attending church.
The two require different approaches
Perhaps the fall in attendance at Church of England churches may also be due to a movement of committed Christians to other non-Anglican churches. Although it also appears that the closure of churches resulted in the less committed finding other things to do on a Sunday and they have simply continued with those new habits. Again, as you have rightly said, different approaches are required.
Clergy do read between the lines – and in ways that lay people do not – when seemingly neutral words can appear freighted with meaning. The Archdeacon will advise on this, or if s/he is felt to be unsympathetic to the tradition, perhaps a retired priest who knows the parish(es). Take the word ‘minister’, used – no doubt entirely innocently – by a highly experienced lay consultant in the CT article, but which can cause a priest in the broad Catholic tradition to turn the page. Similarly, frequent mentions of ‘Jesus’ can suggest ‘HTB-light’ to some clergy – ‘Christ’ might… Read more »
This elderly layperson can also decode, I can tell by looking at church porch whether it’s my churchmanship, also nomenclature for current incumbent, collar or not, vestments? chasuble? Comes from 70 years in a pew in 5 different dioceses and late husband was churchwarden/treasurer in 3 different parishes and diocese. I’m afraid I turn a jaundiced eye on current events in CofE.
Apologies – I should have said “many laypeople”.
Since nuanced meaning of words underlies much formal Bible study, it makes sense that clergy react to certain words as you say.
“He maketh his angels spirits : and his ministers a flaming fire” from BCP Psalm 104, (a personal favourite), as set for the Feast of Pentecost. As a layman, I can fully pick up the nuances of ‘minister’ and ‘priest’, but the rubric of the BCP itself appears to use them interchangeably, and other C of E material does so frequently.
It might seem that some ecumenical compromise was at work, but I have noticed that “priest” is always used in the BCP for any sacramental function.
Interestingly, I have the opposite reaction. To me, ‘Christ’ conjures up the theological Christ of the letters of Paul. ‘Jesus’ refers to the figure I meet in the gospels, especially the synoptics. Christ is the image of the invisible God who dies for my sins according to the scriptures. Jesus speaks the words of the Sermon on the Mount, reaches out to the marginalised, treats women and children with respect, and confronts the scribes and Pharisees. ‘Christ’ was the most common usage in my evangelical youth (“Have you accepted Christ as your Saviour?”), but “All for Jesus, all for Jesus”… Read more »
Thank you for this, Tim. A dull world if we were all the same. I suspect my reaction may have something to do with experiencing HTB worship with its frequent talk of ‘Cheesus’. Less immediately and more importantly, ‘Christ’ – rather than conjuring up the drier aspects of the theological Pauline figure – speaks powerfully to me of the risen Christ, alleluia! Could this be because I worship in a more liturgical church than the Mennonite tradition? As someone who also finds their heart moved by the Jesus we meet in the synoptics, I wonder how you find the practice… Read more »
I totally agree with you about the capitalisation, although C.S. Lewis would disagree with me; he did it all the time.
On ‘Christ’, I note the significant change between RSV and NRSV translations, where NRSV changes many instances of ‘Christ’ to ‘Messiah’. I find that very helpful.
Capitals used to be standard usage for pronouns referring to the Deity, but usage has now changed. When I became editorial assistant at a Christian publishing company in 1977 I was shocked to be told not to use caps; to me lower case looked irreverent. 50 years later I now think caps look strange and intrusive. But it isn’t surprising if older people brought up on ‘Him/His’ continue to use it, and it need not indicate any distance or coldness towards God.
My understanding is that capitalization of pronouns referring to God and Jesus is a relatively recent practice. The King James Bible did not do so. It became common in the19th century. And, as you notice, the practice has now largely been abandoned. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverential_capitalization
There are three, possibly more, hymns and songs with the opening words “All for Jesus” including one from the US and a modern Irish one. The verse you quote is from one of the several congregational hymns included in John Stainer’s “Crucifixion” – all of the libretto of the Crucifixion and the hymns were written by the Revd W J Sparrow-Simpson and the music by John Stainer, but in England, at least, the work is universally known as “Stainer’s Crucifixion”. Sparrow-Simpson was a ‘Minor Canon’ of St Paul’s Cathedral, London and Sir John Stainer its organist. Until relatively recently the… Read more »
Don’t remind me. Apart from the glorious ray of sunlight that is ‘God so loved the world’ it is a dire work. Even Stainer thought so! We at least used to alternate it with the far superior ‘The Last Supper’ by Eric Thiman, which also, being shorter and thematically appropriate, could be followed by Benediction.
“Dire” a very unkind and I’m not sure universally accepted view. I would be surprised if ‘Crucifixion’ ever preceded Benediction.
So far as the music is concerned, Stainer was a devout Christian who knelt and prayed in the organ loft before playing services at St Paul’s Cathedral. I don’t know the Thiman work. My late father remembered singing in JH Maunder’s “Olivet to Calvary” in the early years of last century, on one occasion in the presence of the great man himself. Now I have heard very mixed views of that work …
Yes, having sung in a church choir in my youth, I’m very familiar with the history you cite (I sang in Stainer’s entire ‘Crucifixion’ several times, and in the piece ‘God so loved the world’ almost every Good Friday). I”m not sure, though, whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with my point, which is that the use of the name ‘Jesus’ is not only evangelical – Sparrow-Simpson was an Anglo-Catholic. I also note that when I was young, older Anglicans often referred to Jesus reverently as ‘Our Lord’ (capitalising both words) (I find it often in the letters of CS… Read more »
Tim, I wasn’t previously aware of Sparrow-Simpson’s Anglo-Catholicism; in fact it was something of a surprise. I certainly never associated the Crucifixion with Anglo-Catholicism.
I’m aware of your early background (wasn’t it Coventry, as also the late Fr Ron Smith of blessed memory?), and it had occurred to me that you might have already known everything I said. I was never in the choir and have only sung the congregational hymns in Crucifixion, the first time more than 70 years ago!
His Wikipedia article says he was a strong Anglo-Catholic and in fact edited a well-known A-C periodical for a while.
I was raised in Leicester diocese; my dad was ordained in Leicester Cathedral in 1965 when I was nearly seven, but he left the diocese two years later and we never lived there again. My diocese as a teenager was Chelmsford, but since the 1990s I’ve had the closest connection to the Diocese of Peterborough as my mum and dad moved to Oakham after he retired.
Every member of the clergy knows that Mark Twain’s -supposed- utterings on there being 3 types of lies was incomplete, there are of course 4:
Lies, damned lies, statistics and parish profiles
During my own parish’s very recent interregnum, I wrote the Parish Profile. Behind it sat quite a thick folder of what I thought was interesting trend analysis of attendance, money, inventory and numbers, plus raw data on community engagement, etc. We offered to share this with the applicants when they came for their inspection visit, precisely so that we could avoid any later suggestion of deception. The Archdeacon firmly discouraged such revelations: apparently, “it would confuse the applicants who would have had a very long day.” We would have been more detailed and honest but the archdeacon vetoed it. We… Read more »
My advice to anyone applying for a clergy post is ‘what is it that you’re not telling me’? We all know that there is information which doesn’t get into the parish profile, there is an onus on applicants to be curious too.
Certainly in recent history the average incubency was around 7 years.
I left my first parish in 1987. My successor arrived May 1998 and is still there. I left my last parish in 0ct 2009 and my successor is still there! I did 9 years then 13. I suspect there are a lot of factors including age, children’s education, spouses work, elderly parents, besides what’s happening in the parishes themselves.
The Church of Scotland had the model of “unrestricted calls” but are now calling ministers for a maximum of seven years which can be extended. There is no ideal model. My own background is as a Methodist manse kid. There ministers got 5 year term also renewable. It’s a complex area because of factors like Church politics and giving the ministerial family good stability. Ministers also need around 7 years to get the best from themselves. The issue I have is I don’t think it’s an equal relationship between the minister and the congregation. Each side has the ability to… Read more »
It’s striking that both of these articles refer to the need to be clear about the underlying raison d’etre of the church… and they do not agree on what that is! The Church Times article quotes Stephen Pullin writing of “followers of Jesus, and their primary purpose, which is to help people come to faith in Jesus.” Hmm. What about the (spiritually mature) people in my church who are involved in the local interfaith group? The other article has a broader vision of church people participating in the growth of the Kingdom of God, which presumably includes quite a bit… Read more »
The kingdom of God is about power otherwise what’s the point? In the midst of doing kingdom work people seem to just turn up and become Christians. I sat next to a person this morning who at the start of the service was not a Christian but after taking Communion was. It was a privilege to welcome him into the church. This is now happening every week, regardless of message. But many dying churches put up a self fulfilling ‘do not disturb’ church notice.
That’s beautiful and shows the importance of the Communion Table being an open table
It sounds preposterous to me. It’s like someone venturing into a mosque and suddenly emerging as a Muslim.
That in fact happens quite often.
I’m sure Tommy Robinson would agree with you.
It is rather difficult to know what point you are trying to make with this observation.
Whilst Tommy Robinson and his ilk suggest Britain is becoming Islamic, perhaps you can cite your ‘facts’.
Do you not believe that people convert to Islam in this country? I am really not sure what you are trying to say or why Tommy Robinstein has entered the discussion. All that is required to become a Muslim is the recitation of the Shahada, eight words of Arabic.
You claimed people are “often” going into Mosques and emerging as Muslims. You fail to show produce any evidence.
You said it is preposterous that anyone would become a Christian or a Muslim as a result of visiting a church or a mosque, even though Adrian had just given an example of this happening. Why do you think it is preposterous? If someone wanted to become a Muslim, do you not think a mosque might be a place they would naturally turn to? And it is verifiable fact that a significant number of people in the UK do convert to Islam. Several of my neighbours are converts. One of the servers at my church became a Muslim a few… Read more »
A friend of mine got married to a Muslim in a telephone call to Pakistan. Paperwork took a little longer.
This is all a bit silly. Many instances in NT of people following Jesus on an impulse. Many cases of people committing to Jesus in evangelistic missions. Are we going to say they are not Christians? Yes, they are baby Christians, but still Christians.
“The kingdom of God is about power otherwise what’s the point?”
What does this mean?
I spent a while trying to figure that out. It may reflect a line in a Graham Kendrick song about building a kingdom of power, not words – presumably meaning getting things done, not talking about it.
Within the kingdom lies the ultimate power, but there’s more to it than that, as explained very memorably by St Paul
I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Perhaps 1 Corinthians 4.20 is intended. The Kingdom needs to be more than talk. It needs to be dynamic, achieving, efficatious?
I’d never noticed that Kendrick’s line comes from there, thanks. Perhaps useful to consider the kingdom’s power in the context of the beatitudes’ power inversion, alluded to in 1 Corinthians 1.
‘God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, God chose what is low and despised in the world,’
Yes, it’s inverted, but it’s power. I Cor 1.18, 1.24, 2 Cor 12.9.
It’s love, not coercion, gift not demand. God’s grace, not our possession. But when granted, we should expect that dynamic things will happen to and through and around us?
Agreed. The power is there to build the kingdom. Can I heal the sick, comfort those who mourn, and accompany and bring joy to the humble and poor as we journey toward our inheritance? I suppose Adrian’s point is that the power is needed.
“The power is there to build the kingdom.” What power? The only power I’m aware of is the power that having faith in the resurrection gives us to be willing to love, to suffer and even, if need be, to die, for the sake of others. That’s the power that Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Alexei Navalny had. Is there some other power Christians have that i don’t know about?
I’m thinking of the power behind –
the work of Mother Theresa to comfort the ill;
Newton and Faraday”s work to understand the universe;
Wilberforce’s abolitionist movement;
Dr Martin Luther King’s civil rights movement;
Billy Graham’s evangelistic campaigns.
All these people trusted in God, put in the work and changed the world. In lesser ways we all are all called to do that, including suffering for it when needed. O course one might argue these are just people’s achievements with no other source of power, but they didn’t.
I think that, scripturally, power is associated with the gift of the holy spirit, empowering apostles to witness, in word and deed, to the resurrection of Christ. Proclamation, signs, wonders, suffering and healing all come within its ambit.
Alexei Navalny? Seriously?
I’m not sure what you mean by your ‘seriously?’ comment, Matthew. I’m open to correction but, as I understand it, Navalny knew that returning to Russia might get him killed but he did so anyway in order to stand up to Putin’s corrupt regime- and he was indeed murdered. Interestingly his widow said that “his spirit lives on”. It all sounds quite like Jesus to me (unless you think Jesus went to the cross in order to be a sacrifice for the sins of the world,or something like that: I’d argue that that kind of interpretation of Jesus came later.)
The kingdom of God is about power (specifically resurrection).
Thankyou for clarifying, Adrian. However i still do not understand the point you are trying to make or how it relates to my post to which you were replying. Perhaps you mean to contradict my assertion that the kingdom of God is about being prepared to die? If so, that could be an interesting conversation to pursue.
I suspect that what Adrian might be speaking of is the millennia old power that a sacerdotal caste exercises over hoi polloi.
I don’t think you can talk about power of the kingdom of God without people exercising power in some same form over it. Jesus was well aware of it, in relation to John the Baptist for example. Resurrection indicates a willingness to die to self in order to allow the power of the Holy Spirit to work in them. In contrast institutions have their own self preserving power structures and numerical growth threatens these power structures. Consequently I don’t see the C of embracing growth any time soon. If there is a power issue, it is not in pursuing numerical… Read more »
“Remember this: There are always two worlds. The world as it operates is power; the world as it should be is love. The secret of Reign-of-God life is how we can live in both – simultaneously. The world as it is will always be built on power, ego, success. Yet, we also must keep our eyes intently on the world as it should be – what Jesus calls the Reign of God. Power apart from love leads to brutality, but love that does not engage with power is mere sentimentality. A lot of Christians today are still trapped in one… Read more »
That’s huge and thank you for the reminder that the Spirirs work doesn’t depend on ‘us’. Also the gracious acknowledgement that this is happening ‘regardless of message”. We worship at a Cathedral where there is a variety of preachers and preaching styles but it still happens. People come – quietly and without fuss, get drawn into conversations and moved by the music – and stay. There’s certainly not a ‘do not disturb” noticed as it can be quite challenging. The same is happening in the church I retired from ten years ago.
Stephen Pullin is wrong I suggest, for the reasons stated in my blog, which seem to me compelling, at least as an account of the New Testament picture! But you are right that it is an easy default for those anxious about the institution.
“followers of Jesus, and their primary purpose, which is to help people come to faith in Jesus.” Is it? Isn’t it to put Jesus’ words and instructions into action, to live out the Gospel, mirroring how Christ lived?
Well, it’s possibly both. But the Great Commission supports the claim that going and making disciples is central to, well, discipleship.
I agree that, as you say, it can be both- but the discussion was around Stephen Pullin’s assertion that Christians “helping other people come to faith in Jesus” is their primary purpose. I would argue that that is faithfulness to the teaching and example of our Lord.
Follow me and I will make you fishers of people.
Discipleship and evangelism are inseparable?
Thankyou for reminding me of these words, which did make me stop and reflect and wonder whether I was wrong, and whether “helping other people come to faith in Jesus” can legitimately be said to be the Christian’s “primary purpose” after all. But thinking about the ministry of Jesus, who is the one we claim to follow… Firstly, of course Jesus was not inviting the disciples to join him in calling people to become Christians. Also I’m always a bit wary of the so-called Great Commission, because its centrality and its being called that is an interpretation of one verse.… Read more »
These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that believing, you may have life in his name.
Pressed post early after quoting John 20.31. I do think that your description of what ‘faith in Jesus’ might be doesn’t do full justice to what the biblical witness in toto reveals, which is to do with trust in a person as messiah and lord, resulting in forgiveness and salvation, and membership of a new reconciled community of witness, evangelism and nurture in the faith. The justice, goodness, truth and love we speak of can’t stand separate to this, since they flow from God in Christ, and grow within us as we are sanctified by the Spirit, which is the… Read more »
On the theme of transparency within the parish profile and recruitment process, I was struck by this sentence in Madeleine Davies’ article. A parish representative “was struck by the fact that he had to push for a question about LLF to be included in the interview — which was not something recommended by the bishop or archdeacon.” When such issues are dividing the church, surely it is necessary to address them when recruiting a new priest – to ensure the best possible fit. Could anybody help me by suggesting reasons why the Bishop and Archdeacon might recommend silence. Exactly the… Read more »
I’m a Baptist and we are appointed directly by local churches. I was a bit flummoxed 10 years ago when candidating for a new appointment and being invited for what I told would be an informal chat. It turned out to be a formal interview with the Diaconate (= PCC) for which I was in no way prepared. And the very first question was, “What are your views on equal marriage”!! (They didn’t call me, by the way). I did have an informal chat with the leaders of the church I’m now serving (followed later by a more formal interview… Read more »
Could it be that said Bishop and Archdeacon didn’t want to further narrow the pool of available clergy? A case of anxiety being a poor teacher perhaps.
Allan, I think I agree with you, but is that good advice or not? If you get the wrong priest imposed on you it is as bad for the priest (possibly worse) than for the congregation. About a decade ago when my own benefice was recruiting for a new Priest-in-Charge I was invited by my ordained colleagues to add mention of my then civil partnership to my LLM mini-CV in the parish profile. I had left it out, not wanting to be controversial. But it was explained to me by my colleagues that mentioning my relationship would be an subtle… Read more »
We explicitly wrote into our profile that the next incumbent can be male or female, and single, married or in a civil partnership. Given that we were a “resolution parish” during the last two vacancies that sends a double signal. (And if any clergy readers might consider a move, I’d be happy to send more details — I am not one of the parish reps.)
In defence of said Bishop and Archdeacon, at least they engaged with the process, albeit in a way that may well have been unhelpful. Contrast this with a parish in which the Bishop allowed a priest fundamentally unsympathetic to the parish’s tradition to be put in. Result: misery for both parties.
Indeed!
I’m struggling to see what a priest could usefully do in a benefice of 21 parishes. The mileage involved on presumed country roads would be daunting. How could you remember people’s names when you saw them so infrequently? You’d feel like a taxi dispatcher allocating a resource each time a call came in. Ambitious clergy are still going to be drawn to single church benefices, leaving the ‘difficult to place’ with these mammoth jobs.
A dear friend sent me a link yesterday to an advert that has gone live for a new priest for one of the most toxic parishes in their Diocese. The amount of misrepresentation was utterly staggering – welcoming and friendly, apparently, and the new incumbent will receive strong support from all and sundry! Either there has been a wholesale clear out (or walk out) or the poor appointee is in for quite a shock… I don’t blame the people for this – they’re deluded but have a vested interest in filling the post. I blame the Archdeacon. In my day,… Read more »
Realist, I can understand what you are saying, but how realistic is it to expect that sort of support from the hierarchy. My team benefice is about to go into vacancy after 17 years with the same priest, and with one Bishop and two Arch-deacons covering virtually all of Wiltshire and Dorset I can’t see how they can give our inexperienced team much mentoring and support.
Indeed, Simon – I think I’d settle for just some honesty. We can all be utterly deluded – about ourselves as well as our churches. But without somebody who is a critical friend holding up the proverbial mirror, we never get beyond that delusion. That’s the role that an Archdeacon, even now, can have as they are supposed to sign off Parish Profiles as not utter works of fiction. Some still do, and thank God for them. Others, like the one responsible for the parish in my friend’s Diocese either shy away from it or just can’t be bothered so… Read more »
Section 11 of the Patronage (Benefices) Measure 1986 lays down that it is the PCC’s role to “preparing a statement describing the conditions, needs and traditions of the parish”, i.e. to prepare the parish profile. The Measure does not give any role to the Archdeacon in this process.
On my reading that provision (indeed the whole Measure) only applies to a benefice with a registered patron or patrons. Not sure where that leaves us with other parishes and PCCs.
I think all parishes have a patron, don’t they? Even if the patron is the bishop.
I don’t know. I did wonder whether that was the ‘default’ position. The Measure doesn’t say so, hence my doubt. It’s not an especially crucial matter.
The first clause of the Measure states that the register records for “every benefice in the diocese the person who is the patron of the benefice”. That rather implies that every parish does have a patron. Only patrons who are registered may exercise their right, and if no one was registered then the diocesan Board of Patronage became the patron and was registered as such (Section 25).
When the bishop is patron s/he collates the new incumbent. When there is another patron (personal or institutional) s/he institutes the new incumbent.
Yes, and similarly even when the bishop is not the patron but exercises the right of presentation (because the patron has not done so), then it is again a “collation”. (I am slightly intrigued as to whether our next incumbent will be instituted or collated. We shall see.)
Indeed so, but my experience is Parish Profiles are signed off either officially or informally by someone in the senior staff. That’s been the case for decades, and still is. I also think the point about delusion and never getting beyond it holds true. After all, whose office desk (or computer) do the complaints end up on….the Archdeacon.
The archdeacon was invited to our recent Section 11 meeting, and was invited to express his thoughts, and he had previously seen drafts of the profile. He was not asked to approve it and he had no vote in the process let alone a veto.
OK, but would a parish want to proceed to advert/shortlist/ interview before checking that the archdeacon isn’t going to tell possible candidates that s/he disagrees with the profile?
A lot do these days, Surrealist. In fact, in the recent past friendly Archdeacons have warned me off parishes I’ve looked at, because they’ve included things that aren’t true. Simon – that’s fine, perhaps your Diocese is different. But that has been my experience across quite a few different dioceses over quite a lot of years now. Don’t forget I’m also talking about practice further back than recent years. In recent years, I don’t think Archdeacons have really been that bothered what goes in. Some of the profiles I’ve seen going further back (admittedly they’re in the minority) have had… Read more »
On clergy recruitment I’m interested in finding the data to understand the issue. Does anybody know where to find the data on the number of people annually being trained by the CofE to be priests versus the number of clergy retiring?
In my Dio ordinand numbers have fallen dramatically this year
partial answer: before covid we had about 600 people entering ordination training annually. Now it is 300. There is much speculation as to why but no clear answer. (I suspect it is multiple factors). We are seeing a small uptick in numbers and a DDO I know reports seeing lots of potential candidates. (LLM numbers by contrast have generally increased it seems.) Residential college numbers have collapsed while regional course numbers have fared a bit better – generally speaking. Look at the leavers photos from various TEIs. As one who teaches on a regional course, I do not say this… Read more »
It’s interesting you mention LLM numbers, Charles. In the Diocese I talked about in my other post on this thread, they have had the lowest number of deacons in over a decade ordained this time round. My friend, who incidentally knows you through the TEI world, though not the same TEI (I’ll say no more as they won’t thank me for anything I say that might identify them!), commented that they think it’s because there has been a major push on LLM in recent years in their Diocese, to the extent that the perhaps-unintended message from their senior staff has… Read more »
The house of Bishops in May received an update on clergy numbers (unpublished). I have submitted a question for the July meeting of General Synod on the point. There used to be an annual publication which went into detail.
TEI principals get a list of numbers in each TEI. I do not think it is circulated widely.
The number of students at each residential college in 2024/2025 is shown in the answer to Q128 here GENERAL SYNOD
It would be interesting to see updated numbers. I wonder how the smaller TEI’s are viable – do they attract a lot of non C of E students?
thanks – i was in a meeting yesterday where we learned… In 2025, across all 9 residential colleges there were only 17 new full time ordinands (some colleges will have also recruited a few part time ordinands) One TEI has 145 unfilled ordinand places – currently TEIs get 80% of the fee for a place unfilled. This will end in the 2027 academic year – was due to end this year but there has been a stay of execution Hence.. a financial day of reckoning is coming very fast once the 80% subvention ends this time next year. Residential colleges… Read more »
Lincoln and Salisbury closing was a mistake in my opinion ( though I’m biased). Lincoln was going to move to Sheffield which was sensible. The result was the loss of two middle of the road/ moderate Catholic colleges. I wonder how many ordinands are at Oak Hill. They seem outnumbered by non Anglicans and when I was a DDO in London we were rather concerned about how strong the Anglican ethos was. ( I noticed several of my ordinands who went there are now ministering in non C of E evangelical settings. ) . Residential training does seem on the… Read more »
According to the answer to the GS question, in 2024-25 Oak Hill had 16 ordinands, making it the 6th largest college out of 9, or the 4th smallest. Lots of FIEC students there.
To save people the trouble of scrolling through the Synod report to find Q.128, here, in descending order, are the numbers of ordinands in each institution:
Wycliffe 46
Trinity 31
Ridley 30
Cranmer 22
Westcott 19
Mirfield 18
Oak Hill 16
Cuddesdon 14
Queens 12
Staggers 12
Which results summed up into three broad categories give:
Evangelical – 145
Catholic – 49
Middle Stump – 26
The most recent Ministry statistics are available here: https://www.churchofengland.org/media/44132 (dating from the end of April). In the past, there was an annual Ministry Statistics publication, which took a great deal of time to compile. Now that we have a National Register of Clergy it is much quicker to extract various statistics (once the necessary reports have been designed and built), so we have been able to publish numbers more quickly and more often. Developing additional reports from the system is still a work in progress, so the current set of tables does not contain everything that used to be in… Read more »
There used to be a timeline and a projection of future numbers. There used to be a system for allocating numbers to dioceses to avoid distortions (not sure how well that worked). When “From Anecdote to Evidence” was published back in 2014 there was a graphic that showed that dioceses were expecting and planning for significantly higher numbers of clergy than the best projections suggested would be available – and by a significant margin. Some actions were taken to try to influence the trend, and they may have had a small effect. However the trend of falling clergy numbers has… Read more »
It seems to me that the process of recruiting parish clergy is badly broken. I know of attractive parishes that have struggled to attract applications from clergy, and capable clergy struggling to find suitable vacancies. How have we created such a state of affairs?
One issue is that the number of available clergy is reducing – Charles Read has commented on this thread on the number of candidates being trained for ordained ministry. The number entering training has been fewer than the number leaving ministry almost every year in recent times. That means more “holes” and “holes” staying unfilled for longer.
I understand that. What I don’t understand is how we appear to have a concurrent shortage of posts for clergy looking for a move, particularly for those coming to the end of curacy.
There are posts vacant. But whether they are in the right places, and of the right theological/liturgical/missiological bent for the clergy looking for posts at a given time, is another question. En masse, the clergy are less mobile than a generation or two ago, when a higher proportion were younger, singler or more likely to be married to non working wives.
I think you are right and if it takes a year or longer to replace an incumbent, and an incumbency lasts on average 8? years, then parishes are statistically vacant 11% of the time. What typical business or charity would regularly replace its CEO so slowly and yet still expect to flourish? I appreciate that the parish church is not a typical business or charity but a sign, instrument and foretaste of the Kingdom of Heaven, but even so.
Rather late to this discussion but: I was in the congregation of my last parish for over 20 years. Of that time, about 20% of it was without an incumbent due to several interregnums. Meanwhile, a larger evangelical church nearby had their new incumbent appointed before the previous one had left, because it was apparently such an important enterprise that it could not be left without an incumbent. We received the implied message loud and clear about our apparent importance.
There is another reading— that the enterprise could not be left with the risk of alternative voices being heard…