Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Knowing and Not Wanting to Know the Truth
David Goodhew The Living Church TEC’s Latest Numbers: The Good News and the Bad News
Christine Polhill Women and the Church ‘Stop making bishops for specific groups’
Gavin Drake Church Abuse All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God – except bishops, obviously
From David Goodhew:
“But a significant number of American churches and denominations is growing. Some are within TEC, and the denomination urgently needs to ask why they are so doing.”
I challenge this. I’m an American, and I have seen no such growth outside the Roman Catholic church, whose growth is largely attributed to immigration from Latin America. (And even that growth seems not to be sustainable into the second and third generations.)
It is time, I think, for Christians of all denominations to simply accept that Western society is increasingly secular.
I thought the point–in this otherwise sobering essay “TEC will baptize fewer than 10,000 children annually by 2030. That would be less than a quarter of the number it was baptizing as recently as 2000″–was that where there is growth, including inside TEC, one should ask why. Surely that makes a lot of sense. Go to places like St George’s Nashville, or St John the Divine Houston, or Incarnation Dallas, and see how they are building strong, intergenerational congregations, where baptisms are not declining and where the congregations are not just the aging population.
I note that, unless I am mistaken, all the places you cite as “growing” are on the conservative end of things in TEC.
Since the usual pattern in the USA is for young people to move away from their parental hometown as they go to college and then into a career, I wonder how strong these congregations will be when the second generation is spread far and wide.
As against what? A death spiral for a once significant Episcopal Church, where 7 of my relatives have served with distinction over 4 generations?
One might learn some very important lessons, including how it is a parish, any parish, can grow, against the background of “over 65 and under 50 ASA” which is now at least 75% of TEC.
As against trying to convince young people that all they have learned and experienced about the world and the friendships and relationships they value is wrong or sinful. Far better to meet them where they are and understand their view than insist they accept yours.
Great idea. The three churches named above are excellent at that. Big crowds of young people excited about Jesus’ place in their lives.
Perhaps I am confused. Are these churches accepting of gay people? Do they acknowledge the validity of a committed, loving, same-sex relationship? It has been my understanding that the dioceses where these churches are located are not and do not.
I did not realize that this was some sort of sine qua non for young people attending church, which is what I assumed you were talking about. Affirming gay culture thrives today in the United States. If what you are asking is, do these churches experiencing growth and offering exciting places to worship for those in their 20s and 30s, do this with an interest in same-sex relationships, I suspect the answer follows the lines of a place like HTB. If one is not careful, it may begin to sound like churches experiencing growth are doing so precisely to the… Read more »
Nice way to avoid a direct answer to a direct question.
I thought the topic had to do with church decline and church growth. For you and same-sex matters, ‘for he who has only a hammer, everything is a nail.’
I’m avoiding nothing. Your preoccupations are not mine.
Churches that attract Gen Y and Gen Z do so precisely to the degree your preoccupations are not theirs. Either.
Which means their “preoccupations” as you put it are out of line with the feelings and beliefs of most people under 40…and so, while they may be picking up the fringes of that demographic (the ones who still hold the same prejudices as the leaders of those churches), they are building a barrier to the far greater number of people in that demographic who have discarded those prejudices.
And simultaneously creating an image for the whole, wider Christian church (across denominations) that repulses that demographic group.
That is the key point I think. For every 3 young people that a socially ‘conservative’ church attracts, it may be alienating 97 other young people, who find its repudiation of their friends’ sexuality abysmal and repellant. In short, a negative of minus 94 in 100. There will always be a rump in any cross-section of society who crave the rigid boxed-in religion of the fundamentalists and quasi-fundamentalists. That doesn’t make that fundamentalism right (consider the attraction of other religious fundamentalists in other faith groups). But the vast majority of young people today do *not* buy into that fundamentalism. They… Read more »
While I agree with Susannah and Pat ONeill — there may be a few packed megachurches, but meanwhile the vast majority are being put off Christianity all together — this numbers argument is not really the point. I have heard it expressed as ‘it doesn’t matter, because they’re all going to hell anyway’. This was said to me not by an ‘Anglican Priest’ but by one of their followers. When I said, ‘Oh really, how do you know?’ the reply was (you guessed it) ‘It’s in the Bible.’ I have had other versions of this conversation. Any attempts at different… Read more »
In the contexts of the growing churches I mentioned, Nashville, Houston and Dallas, you have a lot of Gen Y and Gen Z due to area universities. (Dallas and Houston are ‘blue’). There are a lot of church alternatives, including the TEC ones in usual progressive mode. This is TEC after all! And in cities of this size there are all manner of churches. Appealing to every taste. This if the US after all! This is not the UK. The ‘Yellow Pages’ will show you over 1000 options. St John the Divine, Incarnation Dallas, St Georges Nashville would be stunned… Read more »
I think you have a very different impression of the Gen Y and Z crowd than I do. Gen Z in particular. They will surprise you with their conservative instincts. I teach this generation in Toronto.
Go well my friend. Your preoccupations are not mine.
I think that may well be because you are only encountering them within a church environment.
I teach them in South Bend and we have vastly different conclusions.
No, AP, it’s “what you do for the least of these, you do for Me”. LGBTQ people (esp when non-White/non-rich) are today’s least of These. To the extent we are “concerned/preoccupied” with their status, is PRECISELY the measure by which we can know whether it’s “Jesus’ place in their lives” be celebrated, or a counterfeit (that I can only term Luciferian: bright-happy-clappy). FWIW, my Episcopal parish is growing—with younger people (gay, straight, trans, all races. And it’s even while we’re between rectors right now!). We’re very “broad” in our worship style with excellent music (if I may say so myself,… Read more »
All of the growing Episcopal churches I know are affirming of LGBTQ+ people BECAUSE of the Gospel. To proclaim the Gospel is to acknowledge that the Incarnation came as the Good News for all people everywhere. I am now at a leading Catholic institution. Even the young “trads” (traditionalists) and even the “rad trads” (radical traditionalists) are more than OK with LGBTQ+ people. It might not be a leading issue for them, but they really have no problems with LGBTQ+ equality. Christian Nationalism is a thing in the US right now. I suspect that it’ll drive many people away from… Read more »
‘Christian Nationalism is a thing in the US right now. I suspect that it’ll drive many people away from any form of Christianity, sadly.’
MAGA-churches? They might catch on. In the UK I know someone who noticed her son was getting interested in Christianity. But when she suggested he might like to speak with me about the faith, he said ‘Mum, it’s not Christianity I’m interested in, it’s Christian values.’
I guess then the problem is that what he perceives as “Christian values” have very litttle to do with true Christianity.
I don’t know about the UK, but in the US, Christian nationalist churches (potentially MAGA) are OK with treating immigrants in a hostile fashion, removing anti-discrimination measures against people of color, women, and LGBT+ people, removing protections for workers, and destroying our limited social safety net. None of that constitutes “Christian values” if you are taking your values from Jesus.
“All of the growing Episcopal churches I know are affirming of LGBTQ+ people BECAUSE of the Gospel” — so the article to which comments are being made is false, vitiated by “all the churches I know” — which must be a sample of .01 % of all TEC congregations. The three I mention that are strong and intergenerational buck the trend of decline, not because they are staying in the LGBTI+ lanes or avoiding them — the roadway of comments here — but because they are good at outreach, fellowship, teaching, preaching and mission. They are good at what they… Read more »
Your 3 churches are not the only growing churches. In most cities, a non-affirming church is unlikely to be growing. But yes, welcoming and inclusion of all means ALL, not only LGBTQ+ people. I don’t know why one would think otherwise. So we’re talking about the same thing, growing churches with broad appeal, including traditional, heterosexual families who don’t want to raise their kids in a bigoted setting.
“not because they are staying in the LGBTI+ lanes”
What the heck are “LGBTI+ lanes”?
Simple question, AP: do these churches marry same-sex couples, or not? If LGBTQ candidates present themselves for ordination, do they advance them for diocesan discernment on the same basis as cishet candidates, or not?
It’s very simple. No “lanes,” no “preoccupation”. There’s EQUALITY, and there’s “lack of”. Period!
Thank you for highlighting that these are issues of justice and human dignity, and the treasuring of people to be the whole of who they are.
You apparently do not know the polity of The Episcopal Church, which does not force clergy to marry people. In consequence, TEC designed a polity that, in the handful of BCP faithful *dioceses*, the Bishop can give scope for same-sex marriages at parishes requesting this, under the supervision of a neighboring Bishop. The Diocese of Texas (so St John the Divine) the Bishop is pro same-sex marriage. He cannot force clergy to marry same-sex couples, and he doesn’t. The Diocese of Dallas is traditional BCP and the Bishop allows parishes to do same-sex marriages where this is OK with the… Read more »
AP, you do a very good demonstration of “straining a gnat to swallow a camel”. As camel is not on my diet (I’m rather vehement about this!), I’ll simply bid you a Blessed Advent…
I know of several liberal Episcopal churches that have been growing, including in baptisms. These churches have strong, intergenerational congregations. The growing ones are in vibrant cities engaged in social justice and LGBTQ+ inclusion, and offer programs such as Sacred Ground and Beloved Community. As far as I can tell, growth seems connected to regional demographics. Denver and Colorado is a growing region with lots of high tech. I’ve recently moved to Indiana and the local parishes are typical of the American Midwest, not particularly vibrant; we go to Chicago as often as possible for a more robust church.
And frankly, the sooner we accept that, the sooner we can reach people where they are with the news that God loves them
Just in terms of basic amortization: a church whose average age is over 65 and who is baptizing 10,000 will not “reach people with the news that God loves them” but, go out of business. This isn’t a big denomination facing fewer people in their congregations, in some generic sense. It is a tiny denomination with extinction not far off, mathematically speaking. If TEC churches are growing in rare places, best to see what they are doing.
Also, TEC is a diocesan church with bishops and staffs. The PB understands he is facing a huge problem.
I don’t dispute that is your experience, but there clearly are churches and even whole denominations that are growing: e.g. the denomination ACNA: “The denomination in 2023 reported an increase of 36 congregations to a total of 1,013, an increase in membership of 3,115 (+2.5 percent) to a total of 128,114 and an increase in attendance of 9,211 (+12 percent) to a total of 84,794. The 2023 attendance numbers are a full rebound, exceeding pre-COVID levels…” https://livingchurch.org/news/acnas-attendance-membership-rebound/ Or many churches whose numbers are public, even though they are themselves not part of a denomination: https://outreach100.com/fastest-growing-churches-in-america My own experience is that… Read more »
The church plant (where I live after my wife’s death, when in the US) went from 14 to 145 (last Easter attendance) in 4 years. I’d say only 50% have any previous ‘anglican attachment’ but are attracted by BCP worship. And solid preaching. And mission. And fellowship. And..
Happy Thanksgiving.
Lots to give thanks for! It sounds like a lovely church to be part of.
I hope you have a joyful day.
ACNA’s growth is largely over attracting Episcopalians who are unhappy with TEC’s acceptance of gay clergy and same-sex marriage. They are not attracting new Christian adherents but picking up remnants from elsewhere.
And without a clearly unbiased accounting by something like Gallup or Harris or even Quinnipiac, I take all membership reports from non-denominational churches with a grain of salt. I note that the site you link to is counting “attendance,” which is very different from “membership”. Are these attendees regular worshipers or casual drop-ins? Do they contribute time and or money?
Hi Pat, I’m not really sure what to say to this! It doesn’t seem that there is any evidence you will accept that the future of the church in the West is anything apart from decline. Give the rather huge and growing budgets of the churches I linked to, I think we can be confident that those joining these churches are giving money. Given their very full programmes of events, I think we can also safely assume that people are giving time. I’m at a CofE church which slowly growing so I am no specialist on ACNA, but the ACNA… Read more »
I think the future of the church in the West is in change–a change from discriminatory practices toward women, LGBTQ, and other persons who do not fit its definition of “Christian”.
Without such change, and a greater acceptance of the diversity of the modern world, decline is that is in store.
I don’t understand this. The church you attend is experiencing a decline which is the subject of this essay bing commented on. It has in large measure the same view you as you do. And it is experiencing just this “decline is that is in store.”
I would wonder whether you understand the different world of Gen X and Gen Y, than the baby boomer world?
As my sons are both milennials, I think I have a solid understanding of their world view…and I can tell you that a church that doesn’t openly support LGBTQ persons will not be a place they want to worship in.
Pat, you say your church is declining and that the other churches who agree with you are declining.
And you tell me that the only way churches can avoid decline is by changing their teaching so that they agree with you?
There may be many reasons to agree with your views, but this conversation is not persuading me that one of those reasons is “to avoid decline.”
No, I’m saying they should examine whether their teaching is truly Christian and whether the fact that it is not is the reason they are declining. Millennials and younger recognize truth when they hear it, and clearly they are not hearing it from the church at large today.
They are certainly hearing it at the churches I mentioned in the original comment on this thread. Go and enjoy. Learn what 20-30s are like.
My hobby life is in community theater including youth productions (not to mention all my sons’ friends with whom I am very familiar); I think I know what that demographic is like.
I’m interested in the impression you have of (Canadian) Gen Y and Zs. Those in their early 20s that I know in the UK are, granted, tired of being taught the need to affirm trans, but that’s because their attitude is already liberal. As you, Anglican Priest, are closing down debate based on your claimed familiarity with this culture it would be helpful to have some more detail. Are you saying that the young adults that you teach would approve of LGB, and also T, being repressed?
Wycliffe College Toronto has a very wide band of Gen Y and Gen Z attending. This is not the go-to topic, one might say only topic, as here.
But, when the topic arises, what is the prevailing attitude of the student population?
In addition, Wycliffe is a divinity school, and therefore hardly representative of the entire Gen Y-Z demographic. Might as well say you are very familiar with the student population at St. Charles Borromeo here in Philadelphia and from that extrapolate to the entire college-age population in Pennsylvania.
Half of the students resident in Wycliffe are simply U of Toronto students, of all classes, colors and creeds. They find it an agreeable place to live. It is plopped smack down in the most culturally diverse setting — one could argue — in North America. The students are not in a Catholic seminary on mainline Philadelphia. Let’s try to compare like with like.
Dear Anglican Priest, I have followed your argument in this thread with interest. I too am an Anglican priest, but we differ in at least two ways. Firstly, I am ordained in the Church of England, which, while it is heading for the kind of schism that you already enjoy, is still ostensibly a national church, that is not just for confessing members. Secondly, while the confession of your membership Anglicanism involves a theological heterosexism, you maintain that it is not the ‘go-to topic, one might say only topic, as here’. Although we differ over the question of LGBT validity,… Read more »
Wilberforce and Newton in favor of LGBTI+?
Zero chance. Chattel slavery was a capital offense in the OT.
Your comment reminds me of the visitor to a rural county seeing targets on barns, every one with perfect shots in the bull’s eye. ‘You have super marksmen here!’
‘We shoot first and draw the target afterward.’
Advent blessings.
With respect to your own personal experience, I would offer my most recent work experience as a balance: a school nurse based at a large state secondary school for 1200 teens. Among those young people there was overwhelming acceptance of gay people, gay peers, and the ‘alrightness’ of gay sex. So much so, that I had on one occasion to protect an individual teen from his classmates (he was from a Christian family) because he said in a lesson that gay sex was wrong. I contest your suggestion that young people these days oppose gay sex. I truly believe if… Read more »
I am saying, for the umpteenth time, that Gen Y and Gen Z are notoriously diverse. I am saying that the US landscape for church options is equally so, especially in metropolitan areas like the places mentioned. People interested in LGBTI+ churches are not lacking for choice. TEC is largely this profile now. This is not the UK, with an established church and scattered denominationalism. The United Methodist Church — now split into two. The Presbyterian Church USA — now with a PCA counterpart. The old line Lutheran church — ditto, and throw in Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. These erstwhile… Read more »
I’m sure you see yourself, AP, as having no difficulty explaining this level of SNARK to Jesus on Judgment Day.
Lord have mercy on us all.
And I “genuinely believe” Jesus blesses same-sex marriages and LGBTQ clergy. As long as we’re respecting genuine belief here…
Certainly wide to the mark where I am. Most of the new people know nothing about church struggles. They are Christians who have come to love the BCP.
A very good friend of mine who is a pastor in the Christian and Missionary Alliance church in northern BC once told me how disappointed he was that much church growth in evangelical denominations consisted of believers changing churches, and not unchurched people being brought to faith in Christ. I see the same thing in mainline churches in my neck of the woods, too. That’s why, if I see notice a church or an individual seems to know how to help a completely non-religious person become a fully devoted follower of Jesus, I’m going to pay attention, whatever denominational label… Read more »
“Maybe the question should be, “Why are the churches you are involved with not growing, when so many others are growing?” “ Honestly I would like to know the answer to this question (not an American though – – and not sure how true the ‘when so many others are growing’ is. But by definition at various points in time some have been growing else I wouldn’t be here. So the question is still valid if I tweak it a little to look in history. I doubt there is a simple answer; but genuinely would be interested to hear a good… Read more »
Hi Tim,
No simple answers, but this website is dedicated to exploring the questions in a UK context in quite a data driven way:
https://churchmodel.org.uk/2022/05/15/growth-decline-and-extinction-of-uk-churches/
Growth, Decline and Extinction of UK Churches – Church Growth Modelling
It’s written by a maths lecturer specialising in “mathematical sociology”.
Mathematics?, now you’re talking my language:)
Re Gavin’s blog: I thought Rico Tice had left the Church of England early this year to (in his words) ‘demonstrate some clear separation [from it]’ over PLF/LLF.
https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/well-known-evangelist-leaves-church-of-england-over-same-sex-views
But despite demonstrating ‘some clear separation’ in April 2024 he still has in late 2024 a PtO to suspend? Any chance of some clarification?
The link says he retained ‘permission to preach’. That may now be under review.
Like Realist, I am surprised by the absence of Andrew Cornes from the list. Teflon man?
If he is to be involved in the selection of the next Abp that will take some energetic reputation management. But perhaps we are over excited by so much to be indignant about. A calm commitment to factual accuracy is useful in handling execrable behaviour.
And to be clear, I am deeply distressed by how the CofE has behaved and continues to behave. Decency, honesty and accountability are scarce.
In a longer article (maybe the one this short one was precised from) I think he said he occasionally still does some preaching at C of E by invitation, whilst mainly worshiping at the aforesaid IPC church. So it makes sense for him to retain PTO – I’m sure there are a good number of clergy of different stripes who do something similar.
PTO is the gift of the diocesan bishop.
But PTO, once applied for and granted, can also be given up. Or retained, of course.
Thank you for some clarification. Although quite how retaining PtO, which as David says is a gift of the diocesan bishop of the very church one is demonstrating ‘clear separation’ from is still rather baffling. So, in fact, Mr Tice is worshipping in another denomination but retaining his status as a Church of England minister? How is that ‘leaving the Church of England’?
Rico Tice’s entry in Crockford’s shows that he no longer has PTO, and his name no longer appears in the National Register of Clergy.
[You will need a subscription to see the Crockford’s entry.]
Is it possible that he has episcopal permission to preach, not officiate? I’m aware of a minster ordained in another denomination having this. In which case Tice would have left the CofE but retained permission to preach as a visitor.
Gavin Drake’s latest sets out the full disgrace of the current situation in stark profile. I am very curious why Canon Andrew Cornes is not listed among those clergy whose PTO has been rescinded. As he is a current member of General Synod and the CNC it would seem to me to be something of a priority for his Bishop to attend to that… As to the Bishops, well, I continue to be disgusted by their assumption that Archbishop Welby falling on his sword is some kind of quasi-redemptive once for all and for all time sacrifice. Their sheer arrogance… Read more »
As someone who is both one of the 30 UK victims, one of 130 worldwide victims that we know about, of the John Smyth cult, and also one of the ‘ISB12’ (though I am not absolutely convinced that 12 is the correct number?), I second every word of Realist above. On the current trajectory I think implosion will occur long before the Money runs out (though even that date is remarkably close). In Feb 2018 we circulated ‘We asked for Bread, you gave us stones’ to every single member of GS. https://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Stones-not-Bread.compressed.pdf The vast majority of GS (>95%) completely ignored… Read more »
Adrian, first of all I want to say how very sorry I am that you, as well as others, were violated by John Smythe. I pray for God’s mercy, for healing which must be so hard, and for your own strength. Please may I fact check one thing: are you saying that since summer 2023, replacement reviews and provisions (however less trusted than Jasvinder) have not been initiated, and that you and others have been left in limbo? I ask, because that would compound the disgraceful abandonment of survivors when the ISB was summarily closed down, with no provisions already… Read more »
Susannah, Thank you for your concern. I will try to give very specific accurate answers to your direct questions. Last year Kevin Crompton was appointed ‘interim commissioner of independent reviews’ after Jasvinder’s role as ISB survivor advocate was terminated by the AC. I have chosen to work with Kevin, and have, from my side at least (!) a good & constructive relationship with him. I understand that most/all of the others in the ‘ISB12’ have such major trust issues with the AC/NST/C of E hierarchy (hardly surprising in the circumstances) that they regard the post Jasvinder situation with the greatest… Read more »
Thank you Adrian. So what you are saying is that for most of the other ISB12 the replacement support offered is unworkable? You look at someone like Jasvinder – a consummate professional, widely respected, knighted for her work, and who was in the process of gaining real trust from injured people because of her personal qualities, skills and independence… … and then you look at the utterly amateur conduct of the Archbishops’ Council, replete with the sense of entitlement to act autocratically and arbitrarily according to what they – ‘the leaders’ want to do ‘because we can’. And however much… Read more »
Further to you, Adrian. I have posted the following comment on Gavin’s site, but I will post it here too, because I feel so strongly that there has been insufficient accountability for the harm done by the Archbishops’ Council: When the Archbishops’ Council summarily closed down the Independent Safeguarding Board without notice, it failed to set up protective measures, advance counselling, or advance warning to the survivor/victims who had bravely opened their raw wounds to the ISB and were consequently left in limbo and distress. It was a safeguarding fiasco, haemorrhaging the tenuous trust they had started to have in… Read more »
Christine Polhill is on point. We made a huge mistake in 1993. It’s time to sort that out. Our siblings in the Methodist Church made the important parallel decision when they ordained women as Presbyters and Deacons that, going forward, everyone who was ordained had to accept the Ordination vows of every else. Our Methodist siblings got this right. We got it wrong. It’s time to end the institutionalised misogeny. It’s time to stop ordaining anyway who is not prepared to accept everyone else’s Ordination. If we want to serve the country we will fall until we sort out this… Read more »
From memory a motion was put that after 25 years no one was to be ordained who couldn’t accept women’s ordination. It was opposed by + David Hope from the catholic end and Preb Pearce of London from the evangelical but it failed.
Time it was put to Synod again.
The Formidable Peggy Jackson tried to introduce similar in the Governing Body of the Church in Wales a few years ago. Even here, where the antis have no structures, scorn was poured upon her for daring to suggest it. One despairs.
While the motivation – and even part of me wants to agree. I think there is another side that needs to be considered. For a long time the church has ordained people who don’t agree with “the theology” of the church on a number of matters; if that had never happened we wouldn’t be at a point where now there has been “some” (I use the word advisably) progress on LLF matters. Making blanket rules about the theological views that an ordination candidate should have is not something we should rush into; and I think should seriously reconsider before introducing… Read more »
Interesting that so far no one has bitten on this idea. I share your concern, but I fear (not a casual use of the verb) that we are in a depressing age of exclusion, high fences, dismal righteousness and so on. So how do we enable inclusivity, or broad tolerance, to cohabit with the opposed views which are going to add to barriers, not work round them? +Blackburn says ‘no’. I don’t. I have no idea whether Anglicanism was once more tolerant, though it is remembered as such. But in honesty it has a long history of intolerance of all… Read more »
That’s from the piece by Colin Coward. It feels as though an age is passing. Maybe I have read too much science fiction, too much fantasy, but it feels as though a golden age is starting to slip away and that’s what I see in Colin’s writing.
There never was a golden age.
Quite so. The present deterioration has been ongoing at least since the years preceding the 1914-18 war. Many churches can pretend there was a golden age sometime in the 50s/early 60s but the overall trajectory was still one of marked decline. In any case, whoever said that a ‘golden age’ was either attainable or desirable? ‘Golden ages’ are often the product of the influence of ‘charismatic ‘ leaders of various kinds, who are capable of producing casualties as much as ‘successes”
The final book review that Colin cites said “Paul made possible the transformation of the Gospels’ beautiful moral ideal into an anti-intellectual ideology that was enshrined permanently in the Christian scriptures and has since passed into our secular societies. That ideology has attracted a certain sort of mind ever since – one with a death wish.” Not having read the book in question, I don’t know how well that reviewer’s comment reflects its contents. Were it true, the time of the Gospels was the golden age… and yet, I have just been reading, over lunch, Fr Brodie’s “Beyond the Quest… Read more »
thank you. But I went digging, and it’s worth reading the reviews. In a sense I suppose you find what you want.
Perhaps not but I am very fearful of what is probably coming.
The Church of England is calling for the resignations of bishops but who exactly does it have in mind? All bishops or only some bishops and if so which bishops? Clearly there are those who would like it to be ‘all bishops’. I think of this as the ‘Church of England is rotten to the core’ position. It is represented by a number of prominent survivors, various people and groups who are disenchanted with the church for other reasons, some cultured despisers from outside the church, and Martyn Percy. For the first and the last of those some excuses can… Read more »
You raise some interesting points, Jane. I’d just like to offer one personal correction, for accuracy of the record, if I may. I have ‘felt free’ to mention some names of Bishops I think should resign because of this case, but for the avoidance of doubt, I have no ‘long running differences of opinion’ or ‘personal feuds’ with Bishops Conway and Bailey Wells, nor indeed with Bishop Croft, who I have mentioned in passing in relation to a Church Times article about this case. I do disagree with many of the things Bishop North speaks about publicly, and have critiqued… Read more »
I fear that Realist will be proved right. After the current little flurry of dissent, General Synod will move on, and go back to nodding obediently. And the question that comes to my mind is: who will be responsible for this failure? I relate Realist’s comment to Kate Keates’ comment. She says it feels as though an age is passing. I agree and I’m feeling this passing very strongly this morning. Jane Charman focuses on “The Church of England . . . calling for the resignations of bishops” Jane, who is “The Church of England” you think is doing this… Read more »
Thanks for this Colin. I don’t agree with all of it, but you’ve certainly given me some food for thought (and without the dismissive language – which I appreciate). The tragic thing for me is I used to love the C of E, and love ministering within it. As I’ve noted in passing in other posts, I’ve worked at a reasonably senior level within it in the past, and had some interesting and enjoyable wider canvas roles. But I would never take a senior or even middle management role in it now. I’ll just stick with the churches I serve… Read more »
Jane, There are Bishops and others who I think ought to be tendering their resignations, but there is surely a more significant prior point. When it comes to matters of moral conduct ( and incidentally the application of the Nolan Principles for the proper conduct of public life) why is it down to you, I or anyone else to formulate the principles and /or point the finger? Is it not dreadful that those referenced do not have the self awareness and the selfless motivation to say ” Out of respect and empathy for the victims who have been repeatedly re-abused… Read more »
Very well put, Martin. I had forgotten about Estelle Morris, but yes, an example in these circumstances. Sadly, the key difference from what I can see (and some professional experience of more than a few of them) is they genuinely think they are up to the job, and many think they are also entitled to it, for one reason or another.
A few comments on the Goodhew piece about TEC. First, I find it a bit odd that Church of England vicar would write this piece about TEC. I would have thought it more likely that The Living Church would have chosen someone from TEC to write it since that person might have a better feel for facts on the ground. Second, Goodhew writes: “TEC had been a quasi-ethnic denomination, whose members mostly entered it via birth. As late as the start of the 21st century, that was still the case. It is so no more.” Goodhew cites nothing supporting that… Read more »
“In my experience the majority of adult members were raised in other denominations and became Episcopalians as university students or adults.”
This is my experience as well (and I am one of that number). So is the current priest-in-charge of my parish (and, as an interesting side note, the “reigning” champion on Jeopardy this week is an Episcopalian priest who is also a former Roman Catholic).
As a former R.C. who has been an Anglican since I was 21 ( fifty years ago). I appreciate this comment. Attached is the Advent pastoral from the acting Primate of Canada. It is lovely, inspiring, prophetic. She is formerly from South Africa and was educated by R.C. good sisters there. See Wiki bio. Anyway, signing off from TA for Advent-Christmas. May God bless us everyone!
https://anglicanjournal.com/taking-the-time-to-contemplate-gods-invitation/
Anne Germond – Wikipedia
On the failure or non failure of Bishops… Makin was wrong, retired senior police officers say So the main reason (apparently) that +Justin was asked to resign was not following up if it had been referred to the police… The police say it had been referred … Maybe the Police are wrong; but if senior Police detectives with a history in safeguarding are wrong, it can hardly be a resigning matter for someone outside of the Police to not know things properly? I think it’s got to be accepted the media-bandwagon against him was fuelled by ulterior motives… which isn’t… Read more »
And you can still believe this after reading Adrian James’s contribution above?
Do you really not believe that the head of an organisation bears any responsibility for years of institutional neglect of victims that organisation has seriously wronged and continues to abuse? Poor well meaning Welby caught out by his enemies over a technicality?
I really do despair
What is the “this” you are asking if I still believe? Not sure what you mean by being caught on a technicality… (or what you might think I mean). I can believe that the Makin report is wrong to say Welby should have known that the referral was not a “proper police referral”; because the Police in that article seem to think it was a police referral – – so When Welby thought something had been done; that’s not unreasonable. There are other failings in the church yes, and failings that Welby should be accountable for, yes. But I still… Read more »
Yes, there is a lot of noise, not surprisingly given what has happened. But I find myself pondering the reasons for the noise. Some possibilities: genuine concerns about justice being done, or not, through the Makin report, blame shifting, diluting the problem, concern for the institution rather than the victims, using noise to divert attention from other safeguarding scandals. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, commitment to factual accuracy matters, is essential, but I also observe that decency, honesty and accountability are in short supply. Some very destructive behaviour is seen by some in the church… Read more »
‘Why did ++Justin resign?’ is a very multilayered question. It wasn’t one thing he did, and maybe not even the Makin report as a whole, but rather that over the years he and his regime ran out of trust and ran out of friends – Makin is a major report in itself, but in a sense was also the straw that broke the camel’s back, after years of losing friends over Covid, PLF, managerialism, character flaws etc etc. Sometimes leaders run out of key people willing to give them their backing when things go wrong, and when that happens they’re… Read more »
Well quite – – there are lots of reasons why people can give now for why he should have gone. Lots of long standing failures of safeguarding (in particular speed, and the ISB) – which would be reasons for him going. Speed is a general problem in the CofE. But I am sometimes part of the problem (as I noticed earlier today an email from last Wednesday marked “please respond before the end of this week” … oh). I am sure many people who signed the petition thought they were signing because the media narrative said Welby had known and… Read more »
The ‘senior retired police officers’ have chosen anonymity, which makes it impossible to judge how much credence to give their opinions. But we’re told that they now work in safeguarding – for the C of E, perhaps? If so they have an undeclared interest. It seems too that they have read only the Makin Report summary. If they had read more, they would know that Welby is suspected of knowing, or having had cause to be suspicious, of Smyth’s abuse long before it was officially reported to him as Archbishop. He was also criticised for having given inaccurate responses to… Read more »
The ‘senior retired police officers ‘ anonymous, who have come forward and can suddenly remember things ten years ago so clearly are such a coup for those trying to discredit the Makin report. It is quite a coincidence they are now happy to talk- though off the record of course It also seems surprising that the police safeguarding section in a county like Cambridge had so many senior officers .Two I might have believed- but three? Or had someone called a meeting involving the Chief or Deputy Chief Constable and if so, where are the minutes? After which , why… Read more »
They don’t claim to remember anything from 10 years ago… From the article “on the evidence presented in the report, a referral had properly been made by church authorities in 2013.” Why did the police fail to act is an interesting question. But it also shines a light on a related question. To many outside the church the idea of “independent safeguarding body for matters relating to criminal behaviour” sounds like the police. I know there has been some confusion from people assuming that like the post office, church officials have been a private police and judge/jury system for safeguarding.… Read more »
Janet, The NST has and had a number of staff who were or are former ‘(senior) police officers’. Victims & survivors have had a very mixed experience of these staff. Victims & survivors would cite multiple breaches of confidentiality by these staff and point to relevant information being withheld from the Makin Review & the 1Q22 Porter Review by these staff. Many victims & survivors have had extremely poor experiences of NST staff who were former police officers. Separately there are multiple examples over decades of police officers having an over developed loyalty to one another and an under developed… Read more »
Yes, I agree. I too have had a very poor experience of a former police officer, working for the NST, over my own case. And I know of at least two other cases that the same person handled badly; he seemed to do or say whatever was most convenient at the time, with no consistency or diligence. I have no idea of his former police rank, but I note that the term ‘senior’ is sometimes used of length of service, not just when referring to rank.
I am ‘intrigued’ you instantly assume the worst intentions of someone asking for anonymity. Also they are only commenting on ‘was a referral made’ as there was a conclusion of ‘no’ and they are commenting on that. They don’t need to comment on everything. I think it matters, not to worry about if Justin is guilty or not, that hardly matters now. But what should we do on the future. If you are speaking to police and have meetings like what happened in Ely, at what point can you say “I know I have got the police involved” or not?… Read more »
You are wrong in saying that I immediately assume the worst intentions of someone asking for anonymity. Clearly there are circumstances where anonymity is necessary, or even good and appropriate.
I merely commented that since the officers concerned had maintained anonymity, it was impossible to judge how much credence to give their views, since they might have a vested interest. That is quite different.
A terrible report by Makin, not doing his job properly. He should be ashamed. Unfortunately for Welby he panicked when he read the report and tried to manage the situation by leaking it and that turned out to be his undoing, So the C of E which was not directly connected to the organisation that was responsible for running the camps in which the abuse took place, admits institutional failures when it had carried out the right safe guarding processes at the time by reporting it to the police in 2013. If there was an institutional failure it was by… Read more »
Do you have evidence that it was Welby who leaked the Makin Report? If so, please tell us what it is.
And do stop referring to the campaign for justice and and recompense for the Smyth victims as a ‘witch hunt’.
This is part of the Church House curated cover-up …. nothing to see here .. move on. Do you seriously believe that three “senior” police officers just coincidentally materialised out of the ether to talk to the Church Times to undermine the most explosive report exposing so many in the CofE to the critical gaze of the public? A number of senior police have taken the role of unregulated Safeguarding Advisors with the Church and built up close relationships with some of those criticised. If the Jay Report were to be adopted these, “Independent” Safeguarding folk will be redundant. I… Read more »
Absolutely, Martin. I can’t criticise the retired officers for not putting their names to their opinions, as I don’t either – in my case it’s because as a rank and file member of the clergy I would be dispatched into the ether in record time by my Bishop and my family turfed out on the street. But I share your opinion of their sudden appearance…do I sense the presence of a Dragon among us…perhaps of the Pendragon variety? The account in the Church Times is interesting, but I note the officers’ reported opinions are all about the reporting of what… Read more »
He just didn’t get it. He knew full well that the formal disclosure made to the Bishop of Ely, copied to him, was seismic. His chaplain got it in a nanosecond. ‘Think you might know this chap.’ Making absolutely sure Hampshire Police were on the case was the minimum. I have said this before on TA. He should have sent his then Chief of Staff, David Porter, on the first flight to Cape Town, for an urgent meeting with the Archbishop of Cape Town. He must have known that his close association, not just with the Iwerne camps but with… Read more »
Anthony, you make a couple of really important points at the end. Given that being ABC is an utterly impossible job in terms of the competing demands placed on the post in the modern media age & the major stresses on the C of E at the moment (not experienced by any of his predecessors, but some of stresses may be, at least in part, self-induced one could argue) then the absolute minimum Justin, or any other ABC needs, are a gifted empowered visionary episcopate & some, as you say, top flight advisors. He has not had the benefit of… Read more »
I initially bought the “impossible job” proposition but, after further thoughts, I am starting to doubt it. My comparison is the Royal Family and, in all honesty, The King, and The Prince of Wales both cope with far more, as did Her Late Majesty and Prince Phillip – and they did it into their nineties.
It was noted above about the “denomination ACNA: “The denomination in 2023 reported an increase of 36 congregations to a total of 1,013, an increase in membership of 3,115 (+2.5 percent) to a total of 128,114 and an increase in attendance of 9,211 (+12 percent) to a total of 84,794.” The devil, however, is in the details. ANCA’s own materials admit that much of this growth did not come from internal grown but instead came from another group joining ACNA: “Attendance in 2023 was 84,794, an increase of 9,211 since the previous year. “Membership increased from124,999 in 2022 to 128,114.… Read more »
ACNA’s self-reported growth is akin to Burger King claiming growth by buying up a lot of McDonald’s locations.
This evening our parliament passed a second reading of the Assisted Dying Bill, by quite a good majority. I’m not commenting on the Bill, in any way at all, but I am surprised that something this important hasn’t featured in any of the articles Steve puts up each week, or so far as I know, any of the correspondence. How’s this come about? Surely someone in the church media has said something about it already? Or is it a case of being so caught up in internal matters that ‘outside events’ have gone unnoticed? What do others think? Deeply puzzled… Read more »
I seem to recall ++Justin commented.
I follow the former MP Gavin Barwell. He commented that the public support assisted dying but many MPs worry that the present bill has insufficient safeguards. He suggested that giving the bill a second reading would allow amendments to try to address the problems. If MPs feel the same then the vote by some is procedural to give more time to see if something workable can be achieved.
A fair point. It also feeds into the issue which has understandably been preoccupied us: Justin Welby’s resignation. Who is to speak on the Assisted Dying Bill in the Lords?
It is a measure of the massive decline in respect for CofE that its impact on the Assisted Dying Debate, both in the Lords & in the media, has been next to nothing.
Why?Because ‘the church’ is held to be in disrepute, and with disdain, and understandably so. ‘The church’ has nothing to say- and no-one to speak and be listened to. Wes Streeting, Rachael Maskell, Danny Kruger bring ‘Christian values’ to the debate but are ‘voices in the wilderness’ against the prevailing secularism and humaniism. Bishops are silent while jockeying for succession, ‘not upsetting the horses’. As Mark Mardell put it on Radio 4’s ‘Sunday’ programme- he has no wish to have the church ‘thrust down his throat’. Only the Bishop of Newcastle has credibility, except of course amongst the Establishment.
Christine Polhill is right. It was a hugely grave error to create the mechanism for alternative episcopal oversight. Since becoming aware of it (I was a bit young to appreciate what was going on in 1993 other than my school chaplain suddenly becoming greek orthodox because he did not like women being priests – his stock amongst the boys at my school was significantly damaged by that fit of pique) I always felt that it can only lead to division and exceptionalism and so it has proven. Mutual flourishing was a foolish and weak idea doomed to failure as all… Read more »