I am most grateful to Dr Percy for referencing the new book ‘Superpower Britain’ in his second essay. The book aims to address how the hubris of wartime planners turned into the nemesis of postwar policymakers and did so within the very short time span of 1943/44 to 1947/49. However, it also takes aim at the voluminous literature of ‘declinism’, which kicked off with Andrew Shonfield’s seminal ‘British Economic Policy Since the War’ (1958), which had a transformative impact upon Whitehall, and led to the self-fulfilling belief that there was nothing which the UK could do well, or perhaps at… Read more »
Thank you, Froghole. As ever, I sincerely appreciate your insights for their breadth and depth. These essays are part of the wider agenda and approach that I’ve been cultivating within the field of critical grounded ecclesiology over the past few decades. It is becoming an urgent task as academics seek to understand the deeper reasons for what looks like irreversible church decline in the western world. Traditional approaches to secularisation (stemming from 1960s sociology) are no longer adequate. At the same time, trying to develop an account for decline through theological debates (e.g., liberal vs conservative etc) is just as… Read more »
Very many thanks indeed for your kind remarks (though I fear any ecclesiology of mine is of a featherweight variety, if that). I should add that I very much appreciate your essays, but what – for me – is especially useful about them is that they put into ever starker relief how decreasingly useful the Church of England has become as a church. It is not merely the attenuation of pastoral provision at the local level, but the manner in which it has, by degrees, slipped into a condition of almost complete stasis – a condition amplified by the partisanship… Read more »
Thank you, Froghole. Agreed. And I should have added in response to ‘Homeless Anglican’ below that the patient is in denial over the seriousness of their condition, yet still regards themselves as a fit and healthy physician to the soul of the nation, and cannot err in practice. So on CofE safeguarding, despite a long and consistent record of botched procedures and methods, with policies and practices causing even more damage to the abused than the original harm, these ‘surgeons’ want to carry on ‘operating’. The whole presumptive conceit of CofE ‘lessons learned reviews’ is that the bishops are learning… Read more »
Thank you Martyn and Froghole. Professor Jay stated it clearly too…. “We recommend the creation of two separate charities, one for independent operational safeguarding and one for independent scrutiny of safeguarding. Further tinkering with existing structures will not be sufficient to make safeguarding in the Church consistent, accountable and trusted by those who use its services.” Well, we had Synod’s response……
Gareth
1 day ago
I’m not sure why Martyn Percy seems reluctant about disestablishment.
Most Anglican provinces in the world do just fine without it and it would allow for the CofE to make decisions about it’s future without being encumbered by the State or without the pressure to capitulate to secular culture.
I think this would be beneficial also for ensuring equality for other denominations and religious groups in the UK.
There’s no good reason why the CofE should continue to be privileged in law when about 1% of the population are CofE church goers.
I am not in favour of establishment, Gareth. My recent essays, articles and other publications make the case for disestablishment very clear.
Bermuda is the only other Anglican Church outside England that enjoys establishment rights. It is not a province, however.
A parliamentary bill to disestablish the CofE would be timely. Equally timely would be legislation that made the churches subject to the law of the land, and in areas such as employment, safeguarding etc, externally regulated by a fully independent body that ensured the CofE complied with regulatory frameworks that scrutinised other public bodies and held them accountable.
Disestablishment might end the “cuckoo in the nest” problem of evangelicals with no interest in being Anglican trying to take over the church to benefit from its resources and position, which has been the biggest source of internal conflict over the last few decades.
If the CofE is disestablished there is no incentive for evangelicals who don’t care for the threefold orders of ministry nor for episcopal polity to stay. They can go where their preferences lead them and join Vineyard and leave the CofE to Anglicans.
Calling people cuckoos isn’t great. I wholeheartedly agree with the theology of BCP and the 39 Articles. When my grandma shut her eyes to never wake up again, her well prayed over copy of BCP was by her chair. My heroes include John Wycliffe, Thomas Cranmer, John Hooper, Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Ridley, Charles Simeon, John Wesley, George Whitefield, William Wilberforce, J.C. Ryle, and both Henry Venns. I read their writings and I see myself as heir to their theology. My mentors were thoroughly Anglican. I am an evangelical. Am I an illegitimate intruder in my church? 70% of ordinands are… Read more »
FearandTremolo
9 hours ago
In the run up to the conclave, a nun was interviewed on the BBC and said that she didn’t mind who the next pope was, so long as he was a good friend of Jesus.
After everything, I think that’s what I want from the ABC. Someone who can set the tone and have that spiritual, prayerful authority. I don’t know which person that would be, but that’s what I’m praying for.
Homeless Anglican
9 hours ago
I read Martyn’s piece with realism, and sadness. I think he has hit the nail on the head of the situation we are in, but I really want to address and discuss the way out of it. I am tired of reading how bad things are, rather than how good they are and how even better they could be! Is he writing a premature eulogy for the CofE? I feel like I am sitting at the bedside of someone in A&E looking not at a family member, but my total family, my church. Surely this is not palliative care? Surely… Read more »
I think honesty and realism are crucial. But to follow your analogy of the patient in hospital, it is hard to move forward if the injured/ill party is in denial. Furthermore, the patient appears to think that curing themselves and a path to being restored full health largely rests in their own hands. Under these circumstances, it is understandably worrying and also rather gloomy to be sitting with a patient who is clearly extremely unwell, yet in total denial, and making plans for their next round of new initiatives. We would all find this challenging if this was a real… Read more »
Adrian Clarke
1 hour ago
As far as WASGIJ is concerned , why let a metaphor get in the way of detailed analysis, which for some no matter how many times it is explained on this forum never seems to get through. It sounds something like connected incrementalism where the end result isn’t known and decisions are based on a connected set of shared values in the hope this achieves something like the Kingdom Jesus intended the church to be. The problem is where there are no shared values and each does what is right in its own eyes , muddling through becomes the norm.… Read more »
I am most grateful to Dr Percy for referencing the new book ‘Superpower Britain’ in his second essay. The book aims to address how the hubris of wartime planners turned into the nemesis of postwar policymakers and did so within the very short time span of 1943/44 to 1947/49. However, it also takes aim at the voluminous literature of ‘declinism’, which kicked off with Andrew Shonfield’s seminal ‘British Economic Policy Since the War’ (1958), which had a transformative impact upon Whitehall, and led to the self-fulfilling belief that there was nothing which the UK could do well, or perhaps at… Read more »
Thank you, Froghole. As ever, I sincerely appreciate your insights for their breadth and depth. These essays are part of the wider agenda and approach that I’ve been cultivating within the field of critical grounded ecclesiology over the past few decades. It is becoming an urgent task as academics seek to understand the deeper reasons for what looks like irreversible church decline in the western world. Traditional approaches to secularisation (stemming from 1960s sociology) are no longer adequate. At the same time, trying to develop an account for decline through theological debates (e.g., liberal vs conservative etc) is just as… Read more »
Very many thanks indeed for your kind remarks (though I fear any ecclesiology of mine is of a featherweight variety, if that). I should add that I very much appreciate your essays, but what – for me – is especially useful about them is that they put into ever starker relief how decreasingly useful the Church of England has become as a church. It is not merely the attenuation of pastoral provision at the local level, but the manner in which it has, by degrees, slipped into a condition of almost complete stasis – a condition amplified by the partisanship… Read more »
Thank you, Froghole. Agreed. And I should have added in response to ‘Homeless Anglican’ below that the patient is in denial over the seriousness of their condition, yet still regards themselves as a fit and healthy physician to the soul of the nation, and cannot err in practice. So on CofE safeguarding, despite a long and consistent record of botched procedures and methods, with policies and practices causing even more damage to the abused than the original harm, these ‘surgeons’ want to carry on ‘operating’. The whole presumptive conceit of CofE ‘lessons learned reviews’ is that the bishops are learning… Read more »
Thank you Martyn and Froghole. Professor Jay stated it clearly too…. “We recommend the creation of two separate charities, one for independent operational safeguarding and one for independent scrutiny of safeguarding. Further tinkering with existing structures will not be sufficient to make safeguarding in the Church consistent, accountable and trusted by those who use its services.” Well, we had Synod’s response……
I’m not sure why Martyn Percy seems reluctant about disestablishment.
Most Anglican provinces in the world do just fine without it and it would allow for the CofE to make decisions about it’s future without being encumbered by the State or without the pressure to capitulate to secular culture.
I think this would be beneficial also for ensuring equality for other denominations and religious groups in the UK.
There’s no good reason why the CofE should continue to be privileged in law when about 1% of the population are CofE church goers.
I am not in favour of establishment, Gareth. My recent essays, articles and other publications make the case for disestablishment very clear.
Bermuda is the only other Anglican Church outside England that enjoys establishment rights. It is not a province, however.
A parliamentary bill to disestablish the CofE would be timely. Equally timely would be legislation that made the churches subject to the law of the land, and in areas such as employment, safeguarding etc, externally regulated by a fully independent body that ensured the CofE complied with regulatory frameworks that scrutinised other public bodies and held them accountable.
Would this apply just to the C of E? Or all churches, synagogues and mosques?
There are no reasons for faith-based public organisations to be in breach of normal external professional independent regulatory scrutiny.
Disestablishment might end the “cuckoo in the nest” problem of evangelicals with no interest in being Anglican trying to take over the church to benefit from its resources and position, which has been the biggest source of internal conflict over the last few decades.
Or – it will allow the church to sit down and come to a negotiated split which would allow both parties to move in the direction they desire.
If the CofE is disestablished there is no incentive for evangelicals who don’t care for the threefold orders of ministry nor for episcopal polity to stay. They can go where their preferences lead them and join Vineyard and leave the CofE to Anglicans.
Calling people cuckoos isn’t great. I wholeheartedly agree with the theology of BCP and the 39 Articles. When my grandma shut her eyes to never wake up again, her well prayed over copy of BCP was by her chair. My heroes include John Wycliffe, Thomas Cranmer, John Hooper, Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Ridley, Charles Simeon, John Wesley, George Whitefield, William Wilberforce, J.C. Ryle, and both Henry Venns. I read their writings and I see myself as heir to their theology. My mentors were thoroughly Anglican. I am an evangelical. Am I an illegitimate intruder in my church? 70% of ordinands are… Read more »
In the run up to the conclave, a nun was interviewed on the BBC and said that she didn’t mind who the next pope was, so long as he was a good friend of Jesus.
After everything, I think that’s what I want from the ABC. Someone who can set the tone and have that spiritual, prayerful authority. I don’t know which person that would be, but that’s what I’m praying for.
I read Martyn’s piece with realism, and sadness. I think he has hit the nail on the head of the situation we are in, but I really want to address and discuss the way out of it. I am tired of reading how bad things are, rather than how good they are and how even better they could be! Is he writing a premature eulogy for the CofE? I feel like I am sitting at the bedside of someone in A&E looking not at a family member, but my total family, my church. Surely this is not palliative care? Surely… Read more »
I think honesty and realism are crucial. But to follow your analogy of the patient in hospital, it is hard to move forward if the injured/ill party is in denial. Furthermore, the patient appears to think that curing themselves and a path to being restored full health largely rests in their own hands. Under these circumstances, it is understandably worrying and also rather gloomy to be sitting with a patient who is clearly extremely unwell, yet in total denial, and making plans for their next round of new initiatives. We would all find this challenging if this was a real… Read more »
As far as WASGIJ is concerned , why let a metaphor get in the way of detailed analysis, which for some no matter how many times it is explained on this forum never seems to get through. It sounds something like connected incrementalism where the end result isn’t known and decisions are based on a connected set of shared values in the hope this achieves something like the Kingdom Jesus intended the church to be. The problem is where there are no shared values and each does what is right in its own eyes , muddling through becomes the norm.… Read more »