re. Helen’s article, is this a further example of incompetence, and the only way forward is for a fully independent body to investigate and report on such cases?
Either a very high level incompetence on the part of Diocese of York employees (so why are they still in office?) or a deliberate cover up (of what?) by means of a series of lies. What does “independent” mean in such a situation? The LLR was carried out by an “independent” investigator – but his report 2 years later was not circulated, internally or externally, and we who brought the allegations are prevented from seeing significant parts of it for undisclosed reasons. My complaints about the LLR report, and the whole LLR process, were in the end investigated by an… Read more »
yes, the word ‘independent’ is used in various communications, but some using the word have no idea what it entails. Independent scrutiny is not, for example, independence.
Sorry you had to suffer,
Bob
20 days ago
On the Church of England website is this statement: “The Church of England General Synod has for some time now encouraged individual Christians to review our giving annually and to give a proportion of our income. The initial target suggested by General Synod is 5% of post-tax income to and through the church and a similar amount to other charities.” This is reproduced on diocesan websites. In the parish church which I attend we are encouraged to review our giving annually. As circumstances change some stop giving, some reduce giving, some leave it unchanged and others are able to increase… Read more »
I’m going to go for the truth being somewhere in between. There is probably a more conscious and thoughtful approach to giving among evangelicals, but there is also a tendency to be more willing to tell people what they should be doing which can tip over into manipulation. Older generations, who it has to be said make up much of the non-evangelical CofE were raised when giving was not a significant issue in terms of funding ministry. The CofE guidelines reflect pretty much what I was taught growing up, though my giving is slightly more weighted to the church, as… Read more »
Thanks for your response Jo. I think you may be right that older congregants find it difficult to change their giving pattern, and that new converts, aware of God’s grace, give more sacrificially. I can only speak from my own experience of becoming a Christian as a student and beginning to give straight away, not out of duty but out of thankfulness for all that Christ had done. Evangelicals are indeed more thoughtful and make a conscious effort to give in money, time, hospitality etc.
I think members of smaller congregations in general give more time per-person, probably regardless of theological or liturgical tendency. Large evangelical churches, like big cathedrals, can facilitate not giving time or hospitality and treating church almost as a consumer product (the US mega churches take this to an extreme). Certainly my experience of small rural churches is that people, often even people on the margins of faith, will give time willingly and sacrificially. Big churches pay cleaners, administrators, accountants, musicians, project managers etc etc. At my local church the kitchen (second hand) was installed by a skilled member of the… Read more »
‘Giving’ provides much scope for the sanctimonious. Moreover there is no way that the retired person who spends 10+ hrs a week clearing churchyard (including the regular delightful offerings by the dog walkers) is rated at anywhere near level of person donating £100 per week.
Even as treasurer I do my level best not to find out or remember how much money people are giving, and not to speculate on whether they could be giving more. No-one else in my local church knows at all unless the person is bragging about their giving, something I’ve never encountered. On the other hand if you know anyone willing to donate £100 a week let me know; it might just keep us solvent through winter.
Obvs you are middle of road not high “giving” church. But also rather prove my point in that you ignore value of person working for free on churchyard, who even at min wage of £12.60 per hour is saving church £126+ per week. Our large churchyard could not be maintained at all without such free labour.
Of course our church runs on free labour, a fair amount of it mine. Valuing volunteer time is tricky, however, because what volunteers do is not necessarily something you’d pay for. Everyone loves a beautiful churchyard, but without volunteers it’s extremely unlikely most churches would spend anything like £100 a week. Likewise my church would never pay someone to do the IT and audio-visual tech work I do; it would find an alternative. Most volunteers don’t directly displace things that churches would otherwise pay for.
Susanna ( no ‘h’)
20 days ago
Reading Helen King’s article it seems pretty plain that there is a huge amount of deliberate obfuscation going on to avoid learning any lessons at all. A catwalk display of why safeguarding should be independent…. All I can hope is that the Charity Commission reads the article too and begins to ask very tough questions of the trustees of the Diocese of York . How painful for the Read sisters, with the powers that be of the Church cheerfully continuing to abuse them, and presumably the curate who hatched into a Canon of somewhere important continues to hold PTO because… Read more »
The curate become canon, in his 90’s, retired 5 years ago from PTO. If someone has the energy and the commitment to make the Charity Commission aware, I’m very happy to back them. As for me continuing to raise awareness, after 35 years of battling to see the right thing done I’m keeping my attention focused on activities for which I’m more likely to see positive outcome in my lifetime.
Thank- you for your reply. 35 years and still waiting is well beyond shameful.
Unfortunately the thread has become caught up in tithes and reminiscences of happy vicarage life.
I do so much hope that someone with a link to the Charity Commission (which alas I do not have) sends your comments in the right direction .
And guys lower down the thread I hope you are happy paying your tithes to an organisation which ignores victims and survivors of clerical abuse – 35 years and counting??
There’s no personally exclusive link to the Charity Commission. Within their resources they will investigate and respond to any genuine concerns which fall within their remit.
This is totally weird. I’ve been tithing for fifty-two years and was in full time ministry for forty-five of them. I’ve never, ever given tithes to the Anglican Church of Canada. I’ve given them to my local parish, and my local parish issues the income tax receipts.
Call me congregationalist if you want, but if I am, I’m not alone, I can’t think of a single Canadian Anglican I know who thinks of themselves as giving to the Anglican Church of Canada, except for those who give to occasional national church appeals.
I think perspectives may differ depending on how churches are structured. I worship and serve, of necessity, with the local Kirk and anyone involved in the life of the parish knows that the Kirk demands and expects 60% of the parish’s income for central funds (including ministry as most clergy are centrally funded). The General Trustees also own the Manse and church buildings (though, of course, the parish is responsible for all the associated costs).
But if a large portion of that 60% is being spent on paying the local minister, the Kirk isn’t really ‘taking’ the money from the parish, is it? In our situation here in Edmonton diocese, diocesan apportionment was running at around 21% of parish income when I was still working (the actual formula is complicated), but that didn’t include clergy costs. Clergy were paid through the diocese, but by the parish, so clergy salary and benefits were submitted by the parish to the diocese with the apportionment amount every month. But the two amounts were clearly differentiated, and no one… Read more »
The connection between the money paid and the presence (or mostly lack of it, currently, as ‘our’ minister lives 4 hours away and has visited the parish perhaps 5 times this year) of a minister is fairly tenuous.
“Unfortunately the thread has become caught up in tithes and reminiscences of happy vicarage life.” Or fortunately, depending on one’s interests I suppose. As stated, I liked the Mark Clavier piece. It has a human interest angle. But sure, maybe it’s one of those ‘you had to be there’ kind of topics; but don’t assume that those of us who like human interest stories are not concerned about other issues that obviously have more gravitas. Most provinces in The Communion ( and indeed in Anglican entities outside it) have examples of major policy failings on this file with consequent harms.… Read more »
Hi Ruairidh, I’ve only just picked this up- what can I say? The problem when there is such a disparate range of topics in the same post is that some get overlooked totally or the mix of people’s comments gives an unintended sense of bathos. I was acutely uncomfortable that someone who had been trying to see ‘the right thing done’ about abuse she and her siblings had suffered as children for 35 years of her adult life – and it was clear she was reading the thread – seemed to be lost or ignored amid discussion of tithes of… Read more »
Simon Eyre
19 days ago
In our current circumstances each church needs to take a hard look at the financial balance between money given and parish share contributed. At a recent Diocesan Synod the level of giving in Chichester was said to stand at £18 per head per week, in Sheffield (a considerably more deprived Diocese) it was over £19 while in Southwark it was £25 (perhaps understandably) In the face of these sorts of figures it is surely the responsibility of each PCC and parish treasurer to ask themselves are we giving in a way that is reflective of the grace we have received?… Read more »
I don’t personally think faithful tithing or ‘fiving’ is really the root of the problem. Peer or preacher pressure to do this as a condition of membership might be an issue. The really dangerous sums of money at the moment in the church are much much larger than simple tithing, and seem to focus around super rich benefactors on a mission, most worryingly those dazzled by the far right political agendas. These eye watering investments have resulted in the ‘buying’ of significant influence and stake in how the Church of England is run, how selection and training takes place, who… Read more »
I agree with you Anglican in Exile. For me the problem is exemplified by the Hedge Fund manager Sir Paul Marshall. Marshall was a founding member and donor of the St Mellitus College (which trains about 25% of CofE ordinands) and he sits on the board of St Paul’s Theological Centre. Marshall has also given at least £10 million to the Church Revitalisation Trust to plant new churches in the Holy Trinity Brompton network, which as of 2024 has over 100 churches. These are the sort of churches described by Colin Coward on his blog posted on TA a month… Read more »
Plus ca change?
The purchase of advowsons, rich benefactors renovating churches according to their architectural and liturgical tastes, the founding and endowment of theological colleges and religious communities?
Perhaps the scale and modalities have changed, but money has always brought or bought influence in the CoE.
The Golden rule: ‘S/he who has the gold rules’?
I think the question raised by the original article was not whether money buys influence. We know that it always has. That influence can sometimes be entirely benign and beneficial. But not always.
The article and certain following posts are more about the specific influence being purchased by certain conservative, HTB adjacent, mega-donors, and questions what sort of church that are trying to create.
Fair enough. But if I had been a low-church evangelical witnessing the bankrolling of the Anglo-Catholic revival in the C19-C20, perhaps I might have had similar questions, and distaste, concerning ‘what sort of church they are trying to create.’
My faith was nurtured in charismatic/evangelical churches and tithing was part of that tradition, as Stephen Parsons notes. I share some of his reservations, both exegetical and practical, and I would now say that to put a number or a percentage on our giving is to miss the point, that ‘God loves a cheerful giver’ and the transformation from selfishness to generosity is a central part of our discipleship. For some who are wealthy, 10% is far too stingy; for others who are poor, it may well be too much. However, to say that tithing is impossible for a poor… Read more »
Very helpful reflections Tim, thank you.
I would perhaps want to add that there is a grace received in return by the giver who tithes – the joyful knowledge that God has truly given me more than I need – which I find confirmed when I discover that I can live perfectly functionally, indeed materially blessedly, on 90% of my income.
Agreed. Isn’t the underlying issue that giving (of money, materials, time, skill) has always been open to manipulation – hence the warnings about wolves in sheep’s clothing. But reducing the risk by stopping the activity isn’t an option. So perhaps Stephen might go on to explore ways of reducing the risk while still encouraging people to contribute financially to the kingdom.
Thanks Tim, I appreciate the points you make. There is an aphorism, as far as aphorisms go, that what matters is ” not the size of the gift but the size of the sacrifice behind the gift”. Clergy often have a practice, through giving both money and time, of subsidizing their parishes. And, they are not alone in that. One thinks of elderly widows on fixed incomes who baked and cooked for parish fund raising events with their products then sold at discounted prices. Often they bought back the remainders of their own labour at the end of the day.… Read more »
Well, the size of your church pension in the ACoC is connected to your stipend level, so my pension is definitely lower than it would have been had I not spent my first 21 years of ministry in Council of the North* dioceses. And it’s also much more expensive for people in northern dioceses to get out to continued education events, and sabbaticals are practically impossible. Then there is the issue of accommodation. The Diocese of Edmonton has no rectories, so when we moved here in 2000 we bought our own house and got the mortgage paid off before I… Read more »
Thanks for sharing this Tim. Your story relates something of the particular features of the Canadian church in all its vastness, and with all of its variables, not without challenges, from sea to sea to sea. I hope folks will click on the embedded link you included at the bottom for more info. I was interested to learn about the visit of the students from King’s College, Halifax to Saskatchewan last year. I dint’ know about that. I did know about Bishops Burton and Hawkins. I knew them casually when they were here as priests prior to their going ‘out… Read more »
Most give generously because they love the Lord and want to further the work of the kingdom of God. But surely it makes a massive difference what the money is FOR? Some members of the sailing club in the affluent town I live in give of time and money very generously to improve and enhance the Club’s facilities, help with race training for youth members, help improve the already lovely outdoor picnic facilities. The fees of all members, including those who don’t much sail themselves, are used to support fabulous launching facilities, safety boats, etc. And some full time and… Read more »
Ditto Tim… through little money and more money times. … through ordination training and 38 years of ministry… and in retirement. In gratitude to God not through any manipulation. (Which I’ve never come across)
Ruairidh
19 days ago
Having lived in rectories ( as we call them in Canada) , my family and I, for most of my 35 years in parochial ministry, the majority of them on the glebe as it were, I found the article by Mark Clavier most interesting. It had its ups and downs as housing that is both home and ‘official’. As Christopher Lasch notes, “home is the haven from the heartless world”; but a rectory is also a bit of a fish bowl–especially if it has lots of windows. lol. Our last rectory was the home I had lived in the longest… Read more »
My ministry in Canada was evenly split: twenty-one years in rectories or (as we called them in the Arctic) ‘mission houses’, and then twenty-four years in my own house in Edmonton diocese. I much prefer the latter.
Rectories have largely ( though not completely) disappeared in our diocese here–even in rural communities. We now have the odd situation in which priests, usually on some sort of part time basis, commute to their rural parishes. Hence the unfortunate situation of not living in the same community as one’s parishioners. Rectories have been replaced by housing allowances and one’s private living arrangements. I think most of my colleagues would share your perspective. Notwithstanding, rectory living was an interesting experience. As I noted, practical pros and cons; but in retirement I don’t miss having to ‘run away from home’ every… Read more »
Aye matey! lol. I’ve attached a link to Stan Roger’s Barret’s Privateers, the version found on his, Fogarty’s Cove album. I still have my original copy. https://youtu.be/5-uieqous3g The event I describe in my previous comment took place in the rectory in the parish of Mahone Bay. Coincidently, continuing with the theme of ‘privateers’, Mahone Bay itself was location of the engagement during the war of 1812 between the American privateer Young Teazer and HMS Hogue. Young Teazer blew up in the Bay and became the foundation of a local ghost story. (link). Shiver me timbers! Capture of the Young Teazer… Read more »
Fr Dean
18 days ago
Why would anyone tithe to support a burgeoning hierarchy whilst parishes are endlessly amalgamated?
But in my example, people support the local sailing club they love. “The Lord” did not particularly exhort us to do either, not that that means (should one have such a theistic concept of what God thinks) he would disapprove of churches with nicely paved car parks and super sound systems, or sailing clubs with great facilities for launching and recovering dinghies. .
Pam, I wasn’t replying to your example but to Fr. Dean’s statement about the hierarchy. I don’t disagree with your view, although I have seen photographs of my last church just after it was built in the Fall of 1996 but before the parking lot was paved. Spring and Fall in western Canada are very muddy and it was not unusual, so I’m told, for cars to drive into the parking lot and get stuck in the mud. I agree that if we take the New Testament seriously, everything essential to church is doable in a living room—Archbishop Donald Coggan… Read more »
I don’t think that Dr Coggan was a noted NT scholar. I’m sure he knew his NT rather well, but surely his area of expertise was in ancient Semitic languages?
Alas, the question has defeated me. I have a clear memory of reading the statement in a Donald Coggan book, but since my retirement book cull, the only Coggan book left on my shelves is ‘Stewards of Grace’, and it’s not in there. Nor is google any help. My apologies.
I equally cannot quote a literary source, but whereas Google (apparently) cannot assist, the other search engine I consult, ‘Bing’, says this – the emphasis theirs: “Archbishop Donald Coggan was known for his progressive views and leadership in the Church of England. He emphasized the importance of community in worship, stating that all you needed for Sunday services was a handful of people, a bottle of wine and a loaf of bread. This statement reflects his belief in the essential nature of community and the simplicity of faith, suggesting that the core elements of worship are not elaborate but rather… Read more »
Perhaps Archbishop Coggan of fond memory was thinking of, The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, which is what my search yields, when I entered the key words. Very popular in uni dorms of the pious during the sixties was a poster featuring a version of that text, together with bread and wine, and Jesus. lol.
A Book of Verses underneath the Bough, A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread — and Thou Beside me singing in the Wilderness — Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!
Upon reflection, and with a little more online searching, I believe I conflated memories of two different vintage posters, one with the line from the Rubaiyat in my comment above, and a second different one which depicted an image of a loaf of bread and a glass of wine, and with the text, ” Jesus of Nazareth requests your presence at a dinner in his honor”.
No. And there is absolutely no problem contributing to the cost of a car park or other facilities and to keep a lovely old building (or a nondescript modern building, for that matter) in good order. Our local community centre, which does brilliant work, is similarly supported by volunteers and people who love it. Both sorts of “giving” are admirable. I just feel that financially supporting a church you love, or a community centre you love, or going to an auction of promises fundraising for a local choir, or responding to UNICEF appeals for children in Yemen, all falls into… Read more »
A timely conversation for today, feast of St. Nicholas, no? Let’s sing a few rousing verses of, “We love the Place O God”. (below). Your comment is a bit of a Potpourri. You are talking about what the Lord loves, and then what those who love The Lord might love, and then again about different objects of one’s love i.e. in one instance the object of one’s love is ‘The Lord’, but then in another instance the object of one’s love is the yacht club, which you seem to suggest could be comparable to one’s love of the Lord? I… Read more »
re. Helen’s article, is this a further example of incompetence, and the only way forward is for a fully independent body to investigate and report on such cases?
Either a very high level incompetence on the part of Diocese of York employees (so why are they still in office?) or a deliberate cover up (of what?) by means of a series of lies. What does “independent” mean in such a situation? The LLR was carried out by an “independent” investigator – but his report 2 years later was not circulated, internally or externally, and we who brought the allegations are prevented from seeing significant parts of it for undisclosed reasons. My complaints about the LLR report, and the whole LLR process, were in the end investigated by an… Read more »
yes, the word ‘independent’ is used in various communications, but some using the word have no idea what it entails. Independent scrutiny is not, for example, independence.
Sorry you had to suffer,
On the Church of England website is this statement: “The Church of England General Synod has for some time now encouraged individual Christians to review our giving annually and to give a proportion of our income. The initial target suggested by General Synod is 5% of post-tax income to and through the church and a similar amount to other charities.” This is reproduced on diocesan websites. In the parish church which I attend we are encouraged to review our giving annually. As circumstances change some stop giving, some reduce giving, some leave it unchanged and others are able to increase… Read more »
I’m going to go for the truth being somewhere in between. There is probably a more conscious and thoughtful approach to giving among evangelicals, but there is also a tendency to be more willing to tell people what they should be doing which can tip over into manipulation. Older generations, who it has to be said make up much of the non-evangelical CofE were raised when giving was not a significant issue in terms of funding ministry. The CofE guidelines reflect pretty much what I was taught growing up, though my giving is slightly more weighted to the church, as… Read more »
Thanks for your response Jo. I think you may be right that older congregants find it difficult to change their giving pattern, and that new converts, aware of God’s grace, give more sacrificially. I can only speak from my own experience of becoming a Christian as a student and beginning to give straight away, not out of duty but out of thankfulness for all that Christ had done. Evangelicals are indeed more thoughtful and make a conscious effort to give in money, time, hospitality etc.
I think members of smaller congregations in general give more time per-person, probably regardless of theological or liturgical tendency. Large evangelical churches, like big cathedrals, can facilitate not giving time or hospitality and treating church almost as a consumer product (the US mega churches take this to an extreme). Certainly my experience of small rural churches is that people, often even people on the margins of faith, will give time willingly and sacrificially. Big churches pay cleaners, administrators, accountants, musicians, project managers etc etc. At my local church the kitchen (second hand) was installed by a skilled member of the… Read more »
‘Giving’ provides much scope for the sanctimonious. Moreover there is no way that the retired person who spends 10+ hrs a week clearing churchyard (including the regular delightful offerings by the dog walkers) is rated at anywhere near level of person donating £100 per week.
Even as treasurer I do my level best not to find out or remember how much money people are giving, and not to speculate on whether they could be giving more. No-one else in my local church knows at all unless the person is bragging about their giving, something I’ve never encountered. On the other hand if you know anyone willing to donate £100 a week let me know; it might just keep us solvent through winter.
Obvs you are middle of road not high “giving” church. But also rather prove my point in that you ignore value of person working for free on churchyard, who even at min wage of £12.60 per hour is saving church £126+ per week. Our large churchyard could not be maintained at all without such free labour.
Of course our church runs on free labour, a fair amount of it mine. Valuing volunteer time is tricky, however, because what volunteers do is not necessarily something you’d pay for. Everyone loves a beautiful churchyard, but without volunteers it’s extremely unlikely most churches would spend anything like £100 a week. Likewise my church would never pay someone to do the IT and audio-visual tech work I do; it would find an alternative. Most volunteers don’t directly displace things that churches would otherwise pay for.
Reading Helen King’s article it seems pretty plain that there is a huge amount of deliberate obfuscation going on to avoid learning any lessons at all. A catwalk display of why safeguarding should be independent…. All I can hope is that the Charity Commission reads the article too and begins to ask very tough questions of the trustees of the Diocese of York . How painful for the Read sisters, with the powers that be of the Church cheerfully continuing to abuse them, and presumably the curate who hatched into a Canon of somewhere important continues to hold PTO because… Read more »
The curate become canon, in his 90’s, retired 5 years ago from PTO. If someone has the energy and the commitment to make the Charity Commission aware, I’m very happy to back them. As for me continuing to raise awareness, after 35 years of battling to see the right thing done I’m keeping my attention focused on activities for which I’m more likely to see positive outcome in my lifetime.
Thank- you for your reply. 35 years and still waiting is well beyond shameful.
Unfortunately the thread has become caught up in tithes and reminiscences of happy vicarage life.
I do so much hope that someone with a link to the Charity Commission (which alas I do not have) sends your comments in the right direction .
And guys lower down the thread I hope you are happy paying your tithes to an organisation which ignores victims and survivors of clerical abuse – 35 years and counting??
I’m paying my tithes to the PCC.
There’s no personally exclusive link to the Charity Commission. Within their resources they will investigate and respond to any genuine concerns which fall within their remit.
https://forms.charitycommission.gov.uk/raising-concerns/
This is totally weird. I’ve been tithing for fifty-two years and was in full time ministry for forty-five of them. I’ve never, ever given tithes to the Anglican Church of Canada. I’ve given them to my local parish, and my local parish issues the income tax receipts.
Call me congregationalist if you want, but if I am, I’m not alone, I can’t think of a single Canadian Anglican I know who thinks of themselves as giving to the Anglican Church of Canada, except for those who give to occasional national church appeals.
I think perspectives may differ depending on how churches are structured. I worship and serve, of necessity, with the local Kirk and anyone involved in the life of the parish knows that the Kirk demands and expects 60% of the parish’s income for central funds (including ministry as most clergy are centrally funded). The General Trustees also own the Manse and church buildings (though, of course, the parish is responsible for all the associated costs).
But if a large portion of that 60% is being spent on paying the local minister, the Kirk isn’t really ‘taking’ the money from the parish, is it? In our situation here in Edmonton diocese, diocesan apportionment was running at around 21% of parish income when I was still working (the actual formula is complicated), but that didn’t include clergy costs. Clergy were paid through the diocese, but by the parish, so clergy salary and benefits were submitted by the parish to the diocese with the apportionment amount every month. But the two amounts were clearly differentiated, and no one… Read more »
The connection between the money paid and the presence (or mostly lack of it, currently, as ‘our’ minister lives 4 hours away and has visited the parish perhaps 5 times this year) of a minister is fairly tenuous.
“Unfortunately the thread has become caught up in tithes and reminiscences of happy vicarage life.” Or fortunately, depending on one’s interests I suppose. As stated, I liked the Mark Clavier piece. It has a human interest angle. But sure, maybe it’s one of those ‘you had to be there’ kind of topics; but don’t assume that those of us who like human interest stories are not concerned about other issues that obviously have more gravitas. Most provinces in The Communion ( and indeed in Anglican entities outside it) have examples of major policy failings on this file with consequent harms.… Read more »
Hi Ruairidh, I’ve only just picked this up- what can I say? The problem when there is such a disparate range of topics in the same post is that some get overlooked totally or the mix of people’s comments gives an unintended sense of bathos. I was acutely uncomfortable that someone who had been trying to see ‘the right thing done’ about abuse she and her siblings had suffered as children for 35 years of her adult life – and it was clear she was reading the thread – seemed to be lost or ignored amid discussion of tithes of… Read more »
In our current circumstances each church needs to take a hard look at the financial balance between money given and parish share contributed. At a recent Diocesan Synod the level of giving in Chichester was said to stand at £18 per head per week, in Sheffield (a considerably more deprived Diocese) it was over £19 while in Southwark it was £25 (perhaps understandably) In the face of these sorts of figures it is surely the responsibility of each PCC and parish treasurer to ask themselves are we giving in a way that is reflective of the grace we have received?… Read more »
Totally agree Simon.
I don’t personally think faithful tithing or ‘fiving’ is really the root of the problem. Peer or preacher pressure to do this as a condition of membership might be an issue. The really dangerous sums of money at the moment in the church are much much larger than simple tithing, and seem to focus around super rich benefactors on a mission, most worryingly those dazzled by the far right political agendas. These eye watering investments have resulted in the ‘buying’ of significant influence and stake in how the Church of England is run, how selection and training takes place, who… Read more »
I agree with you Anglican in Exile. For me the problem is exemplified by the Hedge Fund manager Sir Paul Marshall. Marshall was a founding member and donor of the St Mellitus College (which trains about 25% of CofE ordinands) and he sits on the board of St Paul’s Theological Centre. Marshall has also given at least £10 million to the Church Revitalisation Trust to plant new churches in the Holy Trinity Brompton network, which as of 2024 has over 100 churches. These are the sort of churches described by Colin Coward on his blog posted on TA a month… Read more »
Plus ca change?
The purchase of advowsons, rich benefactors renovating churches according to their architectural and liturgical tastes, the founding and endowment of theological colleges and religious communities?
Perhaps the scale and modalities have changed, but money has always brought or bought influence in the CoE.
The Golden rule: ‘S/he who has the gold rules’?
I think the question raised by the original article was not whether money buys influence. We know that it always has. That influence can sometimes be entirely benign and beneficial. But not always.
The article and certain following posts are more about the specific influence being purchased by certain conservative, HTB adjacent, mega-donors, and questions what sort of church that are trying to create.
Fair enough. But if I had been a low-church evangelical witnessing the bankrolling of the Anglo-Catholic revival in the C19-C20, perhaps I might have had similar questions, and distaste, concerning ‘what sort of church they are trying to create.’
My faith was nurtured in charismatic/evangelical churches and tithing was part of that tradition, as Stephen Parsons notes. I share some of his reservations, both exegetical and practical, and I would now say that to put a number or a percentage on our giving is to miss the point, that ‘God loves a cheerful giver’ and the transformation from selfishness to generosity is a central part of our discipleship. For some who are wealthy, 10% is far too stingy; for others who are poor, it may well be too much. However, to say that tithing is impossible for a poor… Read more »
Very helpful reflections Tim, thank you.
I would perhaps want to add that there is a grace received in return by the giver who tithes – the joyful knowledge that God has truly given me more than I need – which I find confirmed when I discover that I can live perfectly functionally, indeed materially blessedly, on 90% of my income.
Totally agree Tim.
Agreed. Isn’t the underlying issue that giving (of money, materials, time, skill) has always been open to manipulation – hence the warnings about wolves in sheep’s clothing. But reducing the risk by stopping the activity isn’t an option. So perhaps Stephen might go on to explore ways of reducing the risk while still encouraging people to contribute financially to the kingdom.
Thanks Tim, I appreciate the points you make. There is an aphorism, as far as aphorisms go, that what matters is ” not the size of the gift but the size of the sacrifice behind the gift”. Clergy often have a practice, through giving both money and time, of subsidizing their parishes. And, they are not alone in that. One thinks of elderly widows on fixed incomes who baked and cooked for parish fund raising events with their products then sold at discounted prices. Often they bought back the remainders of their own labour at the end of the day.… Read more »
Well, the size of your church pension in the ACoC is connected to your stipend level, so my pension is definitely lower than it would have been had I not spent my first 21 years of ministry in Council of the North* dioceses. And it’s also much more expensive for people in northern dioceses to get out to continued education events, and sabbaticals are practically impossible. Then there is the issue of accommodation. The Diocese of Edmonton has no rectories, so when we moved here in 2000 we bought our own house and got the mortgage paid off before I… Read more »
Thanks for sharing this Tim. Your story relates something of the particular features of the Canadian church in all its vastness, and with all of its variables, not without challenges, from sea to sea to sea. I hope folks will click on the embedded link you included at the bottom for more info. I was interested to learn about the visit of the students from King’s College, Halifax to Saskatchewan last year. I dint’ know about that. I did know about Bishops Burton and Hawkins. I knew them casually when they were here as priests prior to their going ‘out… Read more »
Most give generously because they love the Lord and want to further the work of the kingdom of God. But surely it makes a massive difference what the money is FOR? Some members of the sailing club in the affluent town I live in give of time and money very generously to improve and enhance the Club’s facilities, help with race training for youth members, help improve the already lovely outdoor picnic facilities. The fees of all members, including those who don’t much sail themselves, are used to support fabulous launching facilities, safety boats, etc. And some full time and… Read more »
Ditto Tim… through little money and more money times. … through ordination training and 38 years of ministry… and in retirement. In gratitude to God not through any manipulation. (Which I’ve never come across)
Having lived in rectories ( as we call them in Canada) , my family and I, for most of my 35 years in parochial ministry, the majority of them on the glebe as it were, I found the article by Mark Clavier most interesting. It had its ups and downs as housing that is both home and ‘official’. As Christopher Lasch notes, “home is the haven from the heartless world”; but a rectory is also a bit of a fish bowl–especially if it has lots of windows. lol. Our last rectory was the home I had lived in the longest… Read more »
My ministry in Canada was evenly split: twenty-one years in rectories or (as we called them in the Arctic) ‘mission houses’, and then twenty-four years in my own house in Edmonton diocese. I much prefer the latter.
Rectories have largely ( though not completely) disappeared in our diocese here–even in rural communities. We now have the odd situation in which priests, usually on some sort of part time basis, commute to their rural parishes. Hence the unfortunate situation of not living in the same community as one’s parishioners. Rectories have been replaced by housing allowances and one’s private living arrangements. I think most of my colleagues would share your perspective. Notwithstanding, rectory living was an interesting experience. As I noted, practical pros and cons; but in retirement I don’t miss having to ‘run away from home’ every… Read more »
I can see you as a pirate, Rod! The Last of Barret’s Privateers!
Aye matey! lol. I’ve attached a link to Stan Roger’s Barret’s Privateers, the version found on his, Fogarty’s Cove album. I still have my original copy. https://youtu.be/5-uieqous3g The event I describe in my previous comment took place in the rectory in the parish of Mahone Bay. Coincidently, continuing with the theme of ‘privateers’, Mahone Bay itself was location of the engagement during the war of 1812 between the American privateer Young Teazer and HMS Hogue. Young Teazer blew up in the Bay and became the foundation of a local ghost story. (link). Shiver me timbers! Capture of the Young Teazer… Read more »
Why would anyone tithe to support a burgeoning hierarchy whilst parishes are endlessly amalgamated?
Most people don’t tithe to support the hierarchy; they tithe to support the local church they love.
But in my example, people support the local sailing club they love. “The Lord” did not particularly exhort us to do either, not that that means (should one have such a theistic concept of what God thinks) he would disapprove of churches with nicely paved car parks and super sound systems, or sailing clubs with great facilities for launching and recovering dinghies. .
Pam, I wasn’t replying to your example but to Fr. Dean’s statement about the hierarchy. I don’t disagree with your view, although I have seen photographs of my last church just after it was built in the Fall of 1996 but before the parking lot was paved. Spring and Fall in western Canada are very muddy and it was not unusual, so I’m told, for cars to drive into the parking lot and get stuck in the mud. I agree that if we take the New Testament seriously, everything essential to church is doable in a living room—Archbishop Donald Coggan… Read more »
In the New Testament, no services met Archbishop Coggan’s criteria, as reported.
A jar of wine or a skin of wine could be come by, but not a bottle.
Of course, and I’m sure a noted NT scholar like Donald Coggan knew that. He was simply translating for modern readers.
I don’t think that Dr Coggan was a noted NT scholar. I’m sure he knew his NT rather well, but surely his area of expertise was in ancient Semitic languages?
Or an amphora?
Did Donald Coggan publish that utterance? If so, where? I’d appreciate information on that.
Yes, but I can’t currently remember which of his books it’s in. I’ll check on my shelves (if i still have the book) and get back to you.
Thank you.
Alas, the question has defeated me. I have a clear memory of reading the statement in a Donald Coggan book, but since my retirement book cull, the only Coggan book left on my shelves is ‘Stewards of Grace’, and it’s not in there. Nor is google any help. My apologies.
I equally cannot quote a literary source, but whereas Google (apparently) cannot assist, the other search engine I consult, ‘Bing’, says this – the emphasis theirs: “Archbishop Donald Coggan was known for his progressive views and leadership in the Church of England. He emphasized the importance of community in worship, stating that all you needed for Sunday services was a handful of people, a bottle of wine and a loaf of bread. This statement reflects his belief in the essential nature of community and the simplicity of faith, suggesting that the core elements of worship are not elaborate but rather… Read more »
Perhaps Archbishop Coggan of fond memory was thinking of, The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, which is what my search yields, when I entered the key words. Very popular in uni dorms of the pious during the sixties was a poster featuring a version of that text, together with bread and wine, and Jesus. lol.
Omar Khayyám – Wikiquote
A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,
A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread — and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness —
Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!
Upon reflection, and with a little more online searching, I believe I conflated memories of two different vintage posters, one with the line from the Rubaiyat in my comment above, and a second different one which depicted an image of a loaf of bread and a glass of wine, and with the text, ” Jesus of Nazareth requests your presence at a dinner in his honor”.
Thanks, Rowland.
Thanks for trying.
No. And there is absolutely no problem contributing to the cost of a car park or other facilities and to keep a lovely old building (or a nondescript modern building, for that matter) in good order. Our local community centre, which does brilliant work, is similarly supported by volunteers and people who love it. Both sorts of “giving” are admirable. I just feel that financially supporting a church you love, or a community centre you love, or going to an auction of promises fundraising for a local choir, or responding to UNICEF appeals for children in Yemen, all falls into… Read more »
‘…and to keep a lovely old building (or a nondescript modern building, for that matter) in good order…’
How about a lovely modern building; do C of E sensibilities allow for such a possibility?
A timely conversation for today, feast of St. Nicholas, no? Let’s sing a few rousing verses of, “We love the Place O God”. (below). Your comment is a bit of a Potpourri. You are talking about what the Lord loves, and then what those who love The Lord might love, and then again about different objects of one’s love i.e. in one instance the object of one’s love is ‘The Lord’, but then in another instance the object of one’s love is the yacht club, which you seem to suggest could be comparable to one’s love of the Lord? I… Read more »
And Tim, as the Good Book says, and as the BCP repeats in the offertory sentences, ” The Lord loves an hilarious giver”. lol.
Yes, that’s a lovely Greek word, isn’t it?