Penelope Middelboe Women and the Church “Pure-blood” bishops sound more like Harry Potter than the Gospels
Andrew Goddard Psephizo Helen King’s motion for General Synod: a help or a hindrance?
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Where the Wasteland Ends: Politics and Transcendence in Postindustrial Society
The London diocese’s “Statement of Needs” says that it is open to appointing a bishop who “supports” women’s ministry but does not ordain women himself or receive communion from them. Is this correct? i looked at the statement of needs at https://www.london.anglican.org/church-and-parish-support/governance-pccs-and-synods/vacancy-in-see-committee/statement-of-needs-for-the-bishop-of-london/ and the full text linked there. On page 32 I see: someone who evidences a strong track record of advancing ordained women’s ministry and enabling its flourishing, irrespective of whether they personally will or will not ordain women to the priesthood. I smell something rotten in Penelope’s article, but I hope somebody will point out it is all… Read more »
I don’t like the references to ‘mudbloods’, which seems needlessly inflammatory. Nevertheless, Nigel, the passage from the Statement of Needs which you quote does say they are open to appointing a candidate who doesn’t ordain women to the priesthood. That’s what is meant by ‘irrespective of weather…’. And it’s time we dispensed with the fiction that a bishop can ‘advance’ or ‘be supportive of’ women’s ministry while refusing to ordain them.
“And it’s time we dispensed with the fiction that a bishop can ‘advance’ or ‘be supportive of’ women’s ministry while refusing to ordain them.“
Perhaps the very first change needed is insisting on accurate language even if the underlying policy doesn’t change.
It is the distortion of the wording which I object to, even if it can be argued the meaning is the same. For me to distort a quote is unethical. For me, to put words in italics means it is a quote.
To be clear, I do not support a bishop who refuses to ordain or promote women.
That does not mean I can support misquotes. I am rigorous about that. I thought it was the first rule of academics, if not journalists (who of course flout it all the time).
Slippery slopes.
There are several reasons why words might be placed in italics. I would say that the first two are first for stress. and secondly when specifying the title of a book or some other literary work. Whilst italics can be used for direct quotes, I’d have thought it more common to put quotation marks around the words — or if it’s a longer quote to put it in a separate indented paragraph. Another use of italics is par exemple to indicate words in a foreign language. Which of these (or perhaps other) uses is intended must be inferred from the… Read more »
In which case it’s good practice to note ’emphasis mine’, rather than risk giving the false impression either of a quotation, or of emphasis placed by the original author rather than the commentator.
Quite.
Moreover Penelope’s article uses the term “”supports“” (note double double quotes – I am quoting Penelope who herself appears to be (italics for emphasis) quoting the needs document) whereas the actual needs document says
“someone who evidences a strong track record of advancing ordained women’s ministry and enabling its flourishing”
which is far stronger. No, I see manipulation and sophistry, it is not acceptable.
To answer Janet’s point, it is clearly wording by committee, obviously you can’t “advance ordained women’s ministry” whilst “not ordaining women to the priesthood”. Obviously the wording was a ridiculous compromise forced by legal concerns or by a particularly difficult co-author. In reality it will be ignored. Let’s not get carried away.
There is no reason to think it will be ignored. Previous examples of the CNC process have shown us that dioceses that do not put in a strong statement that they want a bishop who will ordain priests of either sex are much more likely to get a bishop who will only ordain one sex. That’s what happened at Sheffield a decade ago (when Philip North was nominated, but subsequently withdrew). Since then most dioceses have put in a strong statement. The few which have not have got bishops that do not ordain women — Chichester, Blackburn. All that said,… Read more »
I disagree that “advance ordained women’s ministry” is incompatible with “not ordaining women to the priesthood”. I am an organist: there are certain pieces of music I choose not to play. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t support other people who play them: they would probably not play pieces that I like. Just because I choose not to play certain pieces doesn’t mean I think others should be banned from doing so.
It isn’t within quote marks so it’s clear it isn’t a direct quote, and the italics are for emphasis. ‘Emphasis mine’ is usually added when italics or underlining is inserted into a direct quote. So I think the author has done nothing wrong here.
C of E statements – including the London Diocese Statement of Needs – are so full of doublespeak and Newthink that they often have to be rephrased to make it clear what is really meant. In this case, that they’d be OK with having a diocesan bishop who doesn’t fully support ordained women.
“supports” is not the same as “someone who evidences a strong track record of advancing ordained women’s ministry and enabling its flourishing”
You call it rephrasing. I call it distortion and sophistry. Bad journalism.
You say it’s clear it isn’t a direct quote whereas I assumed it was a quote.
At the end of the day, these mistakes prevented me from reading any more of the article, apart from seeing the words you objected to.
I do have tendency to check quotes, I am almost always disappointed. What a world we live in.
As others have said, the reality is that if a diocese does not explicitly say that they want a diocesan who will ordain women, then there is an unspoken reality that a group on the ViS committee and quite possibly on the CNC who want to be able to appoint a bishop who does not ordain women, however much he may be wiling to appoint them to roles in the diocese. Since the debacle of Philip North’s nomination to Sheffield and the Independent Reviewer’s report, dioceses have been expected to say explicitly if they want a bishop who will ordain… Read more »
It’s nonsense to say that someone can ‘evidence[s] a strong track record of advancing ordained women’s ministry and enabling its flourishing” while refusing to ordain them. That is much worse – and pernicious – distortion than anything Penelope has done.
And why would you read anything as a quote when it isn’t within quote marks?
The section you quote is obviously not written by a single sane person. It is written by a committee, and no doubt there was some excessively obnoxious person(s) on the committee who insisted on the words, otherwise the statement of needs would never have been published. But I stand my ground on italics! I took it to be a quote, it is certainly a summary, and it is a bad summary. Actually, looking at Penelope’s article again (while I wait for play to start at Lords) she put the word “supports” in quotes, and it is not a quote, as… Read more »
Just as italics can be used for several purposes, so can inverted commas / quotation marks. They may be used to indicate direct speech, they may be used to indicate a direct quotation, or they may be scare quotes or similar, indicating, for example, that the word is used (deliberately or not) in an ironic or similar way. Again, one has to infer the meaning from the context. In this case perhaps irony is the correct inference: that although the words indicate support, when one looks in detail the level of that support is questionable. A bit like, say, Andy… Read more »
I hardly think that ‘evidence[s] a strong track record of advancing ordained women’s ministry and enabling its flourishing” indicates questionable support. It is a mess. Ten people, ten different interpretations, very few actually look up the original text. Maybe they hoped the words would be hidden away in the 57 pages, and nobody would read it. I agree, maybe Penelope was indicating an ironic use of her misquote “support”, but it is still trickery. How do we know it was meant to be ironic? It is a mess at least partially constructed by those formulating the statement of needs, and… Read more »
‘Lords’ on Derby Day, with your Epsom connections? (Agree Lords could be in double quotation marks if quoting you, single, which I opted for, referring to the institution.)
Since we appear to debating the significance (or not) of the use of italics and quotation marks, may I be pedantic and points out that if, as I assume, Nigel was at the Test Match, the venue is Lord’s, not Lords.
Correct! Although I was only watching on television.
My main issue was not a matter of pedantry, it was a matter of misrepresenting.
‘It’s nonsense to say that someone can ‘evidence[s] a strong track record of advancing ordained women’s ministry and enabling its flourishing” while refusing to ordain them.’ Many would agree. But the CofE is committed (in terms of Guiding Principles (GPs)), isn’t it, to the notion of ‘mutual flourishing’. Mutual flourishing for both those who ordain women, and agree with women’s ordination, AND those who do not. A culture of ‘Mutual flourishing’ implies, I suppose, that those who do not ordain women or accept their ministry must do what they can to encourage and enable, not quench, obstruct or extinguish, the ordained… Read more »
It was the C of E’s policy, as well as London Diocese’s reference to it, that I referred to as ‘nonsense’. And although it is the official policy of the institution, the majority of the C of E has never signed up to it. Laity are not required to assent to it, and only those ordained or licensed after the 5GPs were promulgated have been required to assent to it.
Colin: “the flow of books written by Christians rooted in mystical, contemplative prayer, practice and vision effectively came to an end in the 1990s.” There have of course been some who still write on these subjects after 2000: Martin Laird’s ‘Into the Silent Land’ as well as more recent guides to classic contemplative texts – Rowan Williams’ ‘Theresa of Avila’ includes a very helpful unwrapping of her ‘Interior Castle’. You yourself seem to be practising ‘Interiorised Monasticism’ which offers many ways in which the contemplative monastic tradition may be interpreted (and burst forth) in contexts outside the walls of convents… Read more »
Thank you for your comment, hidden sister. It’s the “flow” that came to an end in my perception. Martin Laird is an outlier, so is Richard Holloway. Rowan isn’t – he is part of the “other flow” that I’m avoiding, the more traditional, theological, academic flow. It’s hard to define the categories at the moment. The monastic tradition is still with us, as are those living a contemplative life in dispersed communities, but they are far fewer in number now. The category that seems to be in total decline are those like myself who define as contemplative activists. Combining contemplation… Read more »
Colin, as a friendly outsider to the tradition you mention, I’m curious as to how Richard Rohr fits into it? He seems to pop up all over the place here in North America, and a lot of my friends seem to be reading him. Cynthia Bourgeault also comes to mind, and Brian McLaren (both of them associated with Rohr’s ‘Centre for Action and Contemplation’), and also some writers who work on the intersection of Christianity and indigenous spirituality such as Randy Woodley and Caitlin Curtice, and some non-Christian indigenous writers like Richard Wagamese.
Richard Rohr, Cynthia Bourgeault and Brian McLaren all fit onto my bookshelves but not into the list of authors I’m prioritising for the book I’m writing. That’s partly because it’s been suggested to me that I should attempt to focus on eight individuals. There’s a dimension to my exploration that relates to my psychotherapy training and “body work” and this is something I find in Rohr, Bourgeault, McLaren and others. I’ll take a look at Randy Woodley, Caitlin Curtice and Richartd Wagamese- I’ve not come across them – but I’m all for extending the breadth of my awareness of other… Read more »
Richard Wagamese was primarily a (Canadian) novelist (and his novels are superb), but he did also put out some books of meditations based in his own Ojibway spiritual traditions and I find them very moving. ‘Embers’ and ‘One Story, One Song’ are particularly good. Caitlin Curtice (Potawatomi) and Randy Woodley (Cherokee) (both American) are easily accessible online, including in YouTube videos, talks, and interviews. They are more explicitly Christian, although in both cases their Christianity is highly flavoured by indigenous worldviews, spiritualities, and traditions.
I would want to add Luigi Gioia and Erik Varden on contemplative prayer, both ‘activists’ in their own ways but perhaps not in Colin’s understanding of the term.
ezixq, I’ve never bought books by Luigi Gioia or Erik Varden but I’ve taken a quick look online. I’m trying to focus on eight people who have, in my opinion, had a dramatic influence on our understanding of human beings and our consciousness of divine energy and presence over the past half century or more. I know what characteristics I’m looking for. They are not in the mainstream of today’s religious or spiritual consciousness for most people, I suspect – which is why I’m writing the book.
I can probably save Colin Coward a few hours with a brief summary of Matthew Fox: paganism expressed in Christian language. His ‘Reinvention of Work’ is interesting, but the rest is a deeply skewed selective quotation and reinterpretation of the Bible and Christian tradition to turn it into something it isn’t. There, that’s 2 years of Mphil in 2 sentences.
David Keen – thanks for your brief summary of Matthew Fox. I’m particularly interested in people who have a deeply skewed selective quotation and reinterpretation of the Bible and Christian tradition to turn it into something it isn’t. Yup, you’ve hit the nail on the head – that’s what I’m about.
Ignatius of Loyola would be on your “bad” list, as well as the Little Flower of Jesus (pre 1990), not to mention practically the entire history of the genre (Catherine of Siena, Hildegard, St John of the Cross and the list goes on).
It sounds like you want a spirituality made in your image and likeness. And that’s not a bug, but a feature!
The ‘I am a spiritual person’ ego.
I also found the statement odd. He must mean his own particular brand. Even the hugely popular resource “Hallow” has wide-ranging offerings on contemplative prayer. Fr Tim Gallagher is a superb writer in this vein.
Thank you. To be plain, I was not saying that Colin’s overview was odd. It is one viewpoint among many. Fundamentally, I do not believe that contemplative practice is simply a piety or experience for the individual’s own sake alone. I suggest that the devoted practice of contemplation may help us grow receptive to a grace in Christ which colonises the rest of the practical and down-to-earth daily lives we are called to lead, even though we’re prone to sin. As we are drawn by grace toward the Cross of Christ, God may open our hearts and minds to holy… Read more »
What a gracious and thoughtful reply. I am grateful for it. The book chronicling my life with my late wife has now appeared. Le Grand Voyage: Life, Loss, Love (Cascade, 2026). I have taken stewardship of her and our love of France and am blessed to be able to open the world of sacred France to retraitants. It such a rich heritage. One book that I found very helpful: Salt and Light: The Spiritual Journey of Elisabeth and Felix Leseur. By Bernadette Chovelan. Fr Tim has a very good 80+ session walk through the Ignatian Exercises. I frequently use these… Read more »
To clarify “odd.” I was speaking about 1990 as a purported end-point of something.
Apostolic succession was simply a way for a geographically distributed church to maintain doctrinal consistency before modern communications. It got built up into something more through pride and ego. It wants consigning to the dustbin. While Penelope makes it a focus her article. It shouldn’t be. One of the central points of Communion is universality. Rich or poor. Black or white. Straight or gay. Young or Old. People we see eye to eye with, and people we don’t. United in the Lord. Anyone who rejects communion because they think someone receiving it or the celebrant is in some way impure… Read more »
Amen! I could take communion with [insert name of worst enemy/most evil person imaginable] when I couldn’t abide their presence in any other context. And the only reason I could do this is ‘the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit’. Nothing to do with my opinion of them or vice versa. I cannot therefore comprehend the theology of being ‘out of communion’ as so many seem to be these days. Actually communion may be the only thing that is keeping me in the riven Church at this stage of… Read more »
Except for Judas of course.
Of course — if I presume to come to the Lord’s table trusting in my own righteousness
I hope that is tongue firmly in cheek? Nobody has their own righteousness. Any righteousness is through God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit..
Tongue firmly in BCP Prayer of Humble Access
Phew! Not a defender of the language of BCP, but a great defender of the sentiments contained therein.
I have never worked my way through a complete Diocesan statement of needs before- in my mind because of my background it has a greater association with trying to work out whether destitute clients are getting their full allocation of benefits to enable them to survive. In recruitment ( discernment?)terms I suppose it is an ecclesiastical Job Description and Person Spec . It comes over as a very (small c) conservative document with the polished euphemisms of mutual flourishing and guiding principles. I naughtily wonder who they have in mind as their front runner? … Dame Julian of Norwich (… Read more »
I am currently looking for work in my day job, and the longer the job description the less inclined I am to apply. Nowadays the process seems to be (1) initial chat with HR (2) take-home task, which might take a week (3) interview with technical team (4) interview with management team (5) withdrawal of application because another job has been accepted. The statement of needs does seem to be about 40 pages too long. Why not, similar to (2) above, give all candidates a significant NT passage and ask them all to preach on it for 30 minutes? Evaluate… Read more »
I would not disagree with your final sentence but in my preparation for confirmation, very many years ago, we were taught that apostolic succession extended to everyone (including laity at confirmation) who received laying on of hands from a bishop. Of course we know that this was refuted, even for C of E ordained clergy, by Pope Leo XIII. Nevertheless there are C of E clergy and laity who accept apostolic succession as real. I believe that is equally true of bishops in the (US) Episcopal Church and great emphasis is also laid on it by other churches as the… Read more »
History challenges the literal meaning of apostolic succession, as we know that the story of the Early Church was not one of seamless continuity. But the expression still has value as it names the CofE’s commitment to embodying – through its life and ordained ministry – the enduring marks of the Church as founded by and on the Apostles. How well we do this is another matter of course! But the principle remains. To do away with it would be to fall into the old Protestant fault of seeing outward forms as inherently inferior to the inward.
Your comment is equally relevant when it comes to spirituality and classical sources for that down the ages.
That looks like an error in logic to me. You list two adjacent things (apostolic succession and embodying apostolic traditions) and imply that the second justifies the first without showing any causal or logical link.
I was arguing that, while apostolic succession cannot be supported in purely linear terms, it still manifests the ecclesiological truth that the Church’s apostolic identity is enfleshed in its ordered forms – as well as by living in fidelity to its roots. The old Protestant fault I referred to (and which pops up even on TA now and then!) is to collapse apostolicity into the purely inward or spiritual.
Only this week in a live televised service from Nazareth I first learned of St Justin Martyr, (b circa 100 d circa 165, martyred in Rome). Whilst he did not mention apostolic succession as a doctrine, his extensive writings are based on apostolic practice, including, it is claimed, the earliest extant and most detailed description of how the Eucharist was celebrated in the early church and in apostolic times. A very illuminating homily from the site of the Annunciation.
The earliest description of the eucharist is in the Didache. It is remarkable in that it makes no reference to the last supper, but takes the feeding of the multitude as its paradigm.
A better paradigm of what Jesus was actually saying at the Last Supper I think. This is my body given for you, I am the Bread of Life, the 12 baskets of bread left over. Rather than focusing on the broken crucified body, the focus is on mission, sharing the gospel, feeding the hungry (both spiritually and physically), with enough left over to reach the ends of the earth and every Christian is ordained to fulfill this task.
The Introduction by the House of Bishops to the Ordinal: “The ministry of priests is focused in calling the Church to enter into Christ’s self-offering to the Father, drawing God’s people into a life transformed and sanctified.” Irreducibly the grammar of the Church’s participation in Christ’s sacrifice.
I think the sacrifice in terms of the shedding of blood -as in the blood of the new covenant – does do this, but the breaking of bread has an altogether different meaning as explained above.
I don’t think we’re in disagreement over the eschatological dynamic of the breaking of the bread, which should make us impatient with the way things are and stir the prophetic voice. This is put well in those words from the Didache used at the fraction: ‘Creator of all, we have gathered many grains and made them into this one bread. We look for your Church to be gathered from the ends of the earth into the kingdom.’
I have to defer to others’ superior knowledge. The ‘Didache’ and Justin Martyr’s ‘Apologies’ are contemporary documents. I merely quoted what was categorically asserted on Monday in a homily by a priest at the Basilica of the Annunciation in Nazareth.
Obviously I am not able to vouch for any of this, but a quick search produced the following which clearly deserves consideration. Justin is a person known to have existed and honoured as a martyr.
https://earlychurchtexts.com/public/justin_eucharist.htm#:~:text=“Justin%20Martyr%20on%20the%20celebration,Language%20Text%20with%20English%20translation”
His Feast Day was 1 June. The Dialogue with Trypho is an extremely helpful look at how the Scriptures of Israel were seen to embody the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and a study in gracious and respectful exchange between a Christian and a learned Jewish interlocutor. Irenaeus offers the same perspective in The Demonstration of the Apostolic Teaching. A useful corrective to “Jewish Scriptures (OT)” and “Christian Scriptures (NT)” misapprehensions (as well as a misunderstanding of the NT’s own take on the matter, including that of Christ himself).
1st of February I think. 1st June is S.Nicomede.
According to what I have read on Google, Justin Martyr’s feast day is 1 June. S. Nicomede or Nicomedes is 15 September. What is your source for the dates?
In the calendar of the Book of Common Prayer, Nicomede is commemorated on 1 June. Justin is not commemorated in the BCP calendar, and Nicomede is not in the CW calendar.
“In 1882, Pope Leo XIII had a Mass and an Office composed for his feast day, which he set at 14 April, one day after the date of his death as indicated in the Martyrology of Florus; but since this date quite often falls within the main Pascal celebrations, the feast was moved in 1968 to 1 June, the date on which he has been celebrated in the Byzantine Rite since at least the 9th century. Justin is remembered in the Church of England with a Lesser Festival on 1 June.” Catholic and Orthodox 1 June. C of E 1… Read more »
Yes you are quite right. I was getting Justin mixed up with Ignatius of Antioch
PS–Justin’s Saint Day commemoration is also 1 June in the BCP (TEC) and ACNA Calendar of Saints.
So (without investigating further!) it would seem that the commemoration of Justin is a relatively modern thing, and having it on 1 June is even more recent.
Justin Martyr is an extremely important apologist and martyr.
The only recent thing is the West’s movement of his date.
I am happy to be corrected, but Justin’s commemoration in the East has always been 1 June and from earliest times. Indeed, it would be extremely unusual for a Martyr not to be commemorated.
Thank you — I am very well aware of who Justin Martyr is, and familiar with his Apology.
“commemoration of Justin is a relatively modern thing” — I was responding to this statement you made.
It would be very odd that a martyred saint’s commemoration would be characterized in this way.
That was my only point, which I took as anodyne.
Fair enough — but the evidence that you presented, and that I then added to, supports precisely (or almost precisely) what I said — that the commemoration of Justin is relatively modern. You noted that it was Leo XIII who first added it to the Roman calendar, and I added that it was not in the [1662] BCP calendar but does appear in the 1997 Common Worship calendar. (I could have noted that it appears, on 1 June, in the calendar of the ASB 1980, but I had not checked that when I wrote.) All this is evidence that the… Read more »
“The earliest recorded liturgical commemorations of Justin Martyr date back to at least the 9th century in the Byzantine Rite, which established June 1 as his feast day.”
I honestly can’t work out whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me!
When you publish the comment I wrote to clarify, that should be clear. Kind regards.
The question of why certain Saints commemorated in the East are or are not commemorated in the West is a topic of its own. Obviously, Justin Martyr’s death pre-dates any formal split East and West. The thread is a good illustration of confusions that arise when people come at things from different directions. Mention is made of Justin Martyr at TA in early June by one commentator (Mr. Wateridge). Because he was just recently celebrated in the Catholic Calendar of Saints (and also TEC and ACNA etc.) on June 1, I made causal reference to that. I was corrected and… Read more »
St Ignatius is on the day before the Purification of the BVM in the old (real) Roman Missal.
I do daily devotions from Prions en Eglise. So, this was fresh on my mind.
“The Feast of St. Justin Martyr is celebrated annually on June 1st in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.”
The Didache is also the strongest early Christian statement condemning abortion. Here it continues the stringent morality concerning the body inherited from Judaism.
And the strongest early statement supporting lay presidency at the Eucharist. It’s quite a text.
Forgive me for going a little off-topic, but during yesterday’s Evening Office I was struck, not for the first time, by the beauty and simplicity of this:-
O sacred feast, in which Christ is received
and the memory of his passion is renewed:
our minds are filled with grace
and a pledge of future glory is given us.
Antiphon to the Magnificat for the feast of Corpus Christi.
Does it really support ‘lay presidency’? Isn’t that reading a modern notion back into the past? That it does not specify to whom the instructions regarding baptism and the eucharist are given does not mean that they are given to everyone and anyone.
Matthew, I am commenting from memory whilst on a train journey across Norway, but my understanding (from memory) is that the Didache is an advice manual for elected elders in early church communities. Such people might be local business men or farmers or whatever and not liturgical experts. Instructions on the Eucharist in the Didache are given to aid the elected overseer of the local community, by telling him (?) what to say and what to do. It also says that visiting “holy men” (who are the experts) should do what seems best to them. I see this as similar… Read more »
It seems to me that the Didache Christians did not ask, in those who wanted to preach, prophesy or lead, for evidence of being commissioned by apostles – to them the word applies to itinerant preachers – but for sound personal morality and sound moral teaching, which would include opposition to abortion. The Bishops seem just to emerge from the congregation and be recognised by it. So transmission of Jesus’ authority via an apostate was not part of the teachings of at least this section of the early Church
Is “apostate” a slip / typo for ‘apostle” here, Martin?
I meant ‘apostolate’ but the spellcheck was too clever for me
“We do not receive these as common bread or common drink… the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by which our blood and flesh are nourished through transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”
Good that Colin is exploring more human science, more sympathetic to faith. Interesting that the scientist he’s reading is Capra, a physicist. Counter-intuitively, physics is quite open to non-material understandings of things, because the world it describes (almost everything is fields) is so different from what we think we see, raising the possibility that we’re just not seeing clearly – like in Plato’s cave where people see shadows and think they’re the reality. Sad that biology, the science of life, is presently perceived as somehow anti-faith. I wonder if that’s because so much biological research is understandably utilitarian, seeking new… Read more »
And curiouser and curiouser, biology is presented as foundational to theology in some influential quarters, eg the constant invocation of ‘one man and one woman’ which to my mind is more pagan than Christian.
Or Andrew’s invocation of “biological sex” which is fast becoming a nonsensical construct, both legally and biologically.
While ‘gender identity’, (in its myriad and multiplying forms) presumably, rather than being a social construct of late, decadent modernity, is a matter of rigorous, unchanging, scientific, philosophically uncontestable truth?
Despondent, Regarding gender identity, if one looks at anthropological reports from pre-patriarchal/ pre- Christian cultures then gender variant patterns which show remarkable similarity to what we understand to be transgenderism in the European west were widespread across history and across the world. Sadly such practises were wiped out by the spread of Christianity with colonialism. But more recently the biological sciences have been interesting. There are an increasing number of reports showing that a trans-women (male appearing body but believes they are a woman) have a brain which is structured mostly like stereotypical male brain, but certain parts of their… Read more »
‘So if such a person has such a brain which is structured between and female, probably developed in that way in the womb, how would such a person be labelled “biological male” or”biological female” on their birth certificate with any credibility?’ Because biological sex is a matter of having XY or XX chromosomes perhaps? Whereas ‘gender identity’ conforms (biologically) to having one or other clearly binary distinguishable ‘type’ of brain structure and function? So…there are identifiably ‘male’ brains, which function differently from ‘female’ brains. That opens a can of feminist worms, doesn’t it… But a biological male can have a… Read more »
I would say yes, no, yes, and no respectively.
Yes, in this context I’m more interested in the whole picture presented by science than in using particular findings to support specific ethical or doctrinal understandings. Does it create wonder about the beauty, complexity and inter-connectedness of the world? And might that open up questions about the creator? Re much biological research, studying molecular pathways and networks in fine detail is useful for drug discovery, but I wonder if helps appreciate the creatures made up from cells that use those pathways. It’s like trying to understand Michelangelo’s paintings by studying the chemical composition of the paints he used. We risk… Read more »
one of my old classmates, Hugh Pelham, worked on cells and proteins. how a single cell goes on to create a human is, I think, still an area of research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Pelham
Thanks.
There is a great essay by Dyson on fields and maxwell.
https://davidtong.org/pdfs/teaching/electromagnetism/dyson.pdf
Cheers Nigel, Great summary. I found the magical bit was when the fields are quantized, creating particles. Going a bit off-subject, one reason it took time for Maxwell’s Equations to catch on is that the version we have today are actually Heaviside’s Equations … https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Heaviside Using vector calculus, he reduced Maxwell’s 20 equations to the current four. I had absolutely no idea this guy made the huge contribution he did. He also made vast contributions to telegraphy, but in theoretical physics he seems a bit overlooked these days, beyond the Heaviside step function, which isn’t as… Read more »
Rerum Novarum, thank you for your comment about Capra. I have four of his books on my shelves but haven’t yet got around to re-reading them to remind myself of the ideas in them that have contributed to the expansion of my personal awareness and experience of God. Fields open exciting new vistas. My experience tells me that the majority of us are seeing shadows and think they are reality. Humanity is having great difficulty in seeing anything clearly at the moment and it’s getting worse, unaware that there are big, open, exciting, transforming questions to explore.
“Humanity is having great difficulty in seeing anything clearly at the moment and it’s getting worse” — “humanity” at large? That is a breath-taking comment and claim from a small corner of England!
Projection?
With Trump in charge of the USA, humanity has to endure the terrible chaos unleashed by a erratic narcissist. Projection? No. Even a small corner of England is affected by the insanity.
Thanks for clarifying. It’s Trump again who is being referred to in this global statement (and not, e.g., Henry Nowak).
How are the difficulties facing humanity caused by the terrible murder of an innocent young man? You sound like Farage.
No, not a projection, Anglican Priest. As Fr David H comments below, every person on the planet, pretty much, is being affected by Trump in the USA, Putin in Russia and Netanyahu in Israel, plus inadequate political leaders in England, plus both major political parties in the USA and various other extremist leaders in other continents. No, I am not projecting when I write that humanity at large is having great difficulty in seeing anything clearly at the moment. I am in daily conversation with friends in countries in east, west and southern Africa and the content of those conversations… Read more »
“Humanity seeing clearly.” I genuinely have no idea–culturally, philosophically, theologically–what it would mean for “humanity as a totality” to see something clearly. Your statement seems to suggest such a Tower of Babel possibility.
Silos of limited awareness, my friend, is life East of Eden.
Burying Trump (or the murderer of Henry Nowak) under mountains of some achievable “clear seeing” isn’t going to alter that existential fact.
Get angry, be an activist, be a proud “different kind of Christian” all you like.
Just don’t expect “humanity at large” to care much.
Revelations of Divine Love or Revelations of Great Nit Picking?
Anglican Priest: I wrote “humanity at large is having great difficulty at the moment seeing clearly”, NOT “humanity seeing clearly”, I’ve learnt to pay attention more carefully to exactly what people say and write, and am learning to notice when distortion is introduced to support an attack on someone’s presentation or argument. Humanity at large, humanity en masse, is being affected at the moment by the behaviour of a small number of individual members of the human community. People in every part of the world are being affected by actions being taken by this tiny elite. A growing proportion will… Read more »
Wish you well on your journey. I hope you find what you are seeking. Grace and peace.
Colin Coward, spot on re: the big canvas of helping humanity at large. Have you had a chance to look at Pope Leo’s encyclical, Magnifica Humanitas? (link) Right out the gate, the first line, “Humanity, created by God in all its grandeur, is today facing a pivotal choice: either to construct a new Tower of Babel or to build the city in which God and humanity dwell together.” He uses two biblical stories as parables, either The Tower of Babel or the re-building of Jerusalem ( para. 7). I would say it is very difficult to read this encyclical without… Read more »
Ruairidh, a brief response to say thank you for your comment. It’s always reassuring to know that some readers think I’m spot on! I’ve looked at the reporting on Magnifica Humanitas because I can see that it’s a significant, valuable contribution to the challenge to the Trumpian forces so dominant and dangerous in global culture. I thought about posting a blog but decided that my own line of research and allied thinking is the priority. The scope of concern for the well-being of human culture and emotional and spiritual health is huge.
Descartes thought that those human beings who take trouble to clarify their ideas will see progressively more truth, including from quite an early stage the proven existence of God. Such ideas are of the essence of philosophy. Activists of various kinds hope that they will make whatever they care about clearer and more compeling to more and more people. Sometimes they have a degree of success, sometimes they deserve it
Indeed, that would be Descartes…
If, hypothetically, a woman bishop announced that because of personal conviction she would only ordain women, how long do we think that would be allowed to continue?
That’s a spurious straw woman. The cases are not comparable. Because the church has never taught or practised that only women can be ordained. Whereas much of the universal church has taught and/or practised, or currently teaches and practises, that only men can be ordained. Whether that teaching and practise is correct, or tolerable, is clearly a matter for contention. But a policy of exclusive female ordination would be a bizarre novelty.
The Penelope Middelboe article is an interesting opinion piece. I think one could look at foundational myths like the mechanical notion of apostolic succession and then consider how things actually succeed historically. Here is a new book with a view about how a woman helped the English reformation succeed as it were. https://anglicanjournal.com/anne-boleyn-as-architect-of-the-english-reformation-a-conversation-with-martha-tatarnic/“The origin story of the Anglican Church is that King Henry VIII wanted a divorce. I’ll challenge people to think instead that maybe our origin story is that the woman [ Anne Boleyn] that he was interested in marrying was a reformer, and that this powerful misrepresented woman… Read more »
Important and misrepresented as Anne Bolyen was she can hardly be described as an architect of the English Reformation – her ideas were based on others.
I shall wait until I have read it and perhaps seen a review or two by church historians, especially ones with a feminist perspective, before passing judgement. The book does look interesting.
Plus, judging from the interview, the author is looking at her influence on the Reformation from the perspective of positioning, not so much original ideas of her own.
From the perspective of positioning Catherine of Aragon had more influence.
who knows, but not much point in us debating a book neither of us have read yet. However, I thought the interview with the author about the book was a handy reminder that the mechanical notion of ‘apostolic succession’ is complicated by historical processes which in reference to said notion are not seamless. Just whack me on the neck with a bible but I think The English protestant reformation of which we heirs provides a frame for consideration.
You won’t find apostolic succession in the bible and there certainly aren’t many apostles currently in the C of E – Nicky Gumble is the only I can think of. But there may be others.
I’m going to channel my inner protestant here. I’m also going to agree with Penelope Middelboe who writes: “Obsession with Apostolic Succession is a tenants-in-the-vineyard notion. It has no place in the Good News.” If we are going to obsess, let our obsession be with justice. However, the notion of ‘apostolic succession’ may be distinguished from the mechanical notion of the same as commonly understood. See, for example, the work of the World Council of Churches: “In churches which practice the succession through the episcopate, it is increasingly recognized that a continuity in apostolic faith, worship and mission has been… Read more »
I love me a guy with an ‘inner protestant’!
Lol! Ecclesia semper reformanda est : )
The Porvoo Common Declaration has important things to say about apostolicity and succession…a crucial discussion in enabling the Nordic Churches to enter full communion with us in the Anglican churches of the British Isles and Ireland. Professor Stephen Sykes in particular pointed to its importance in domestic discussions of this matter in the C of E
Thank You Perry Butler. Here we have full Communion between The Anglican Church of Canada and The Evangelical Lutheran church in Canada. (link). I was fortunate enough to have some great “on the ground” experience of this when I served in Lunenburg County, Nova Scotia –a place where Anglicans and Lutherans in Canada have lived and worshipped alongside one another for some time. One personal observation: I had hoped the arrangement here would have made Anglican bishops less ‘monarchial’. Unfortunately it seems to have gone the other way, making Lutheran bishops more ‘hierarchical’ i.e. curtailing some functions previously conducted by… Read more »
I remember when the local ELCIC bishop attended our Athabasca diocesan synod in the 1990s; for the opening service, our bishop was decked out in cope and mitre, rochet and chimere, with his magnificent pastoral staff, while the Lutheran bishop was wearing alb and stole, and holding a shepherd’s crook! I remember thinking, “I hope that catches on.” As you say, Ruairidh – it didn’t! And yet – out here on the prairies where many rural churches are struggling (as are the communities they are situated in), we’re seeing more co-operation, not only between Anglicans and Lutherans, but especially with… Read more »
Thanks Tim. There are things about both the United Church of Canada and the churches of The Canadian Association of Baptist Freedoms I appreciate. Sometimes, I think necessity is an opportunity for an abundance of The Spirit.
I would not wish to see someone appointed to London who does not ordain women or fully accept their ministry. However I was not comfortable with signing the WATCH petition which says “We would not accept his authority” to me this undermines order. There are various things I have not agreed with my bishop about but I accept his authority in all things lawful.
I too find apostolic succession profoundly unconvincing but am not less dubious about the second coming of the Son of Man.
I thought He had already arrived in the White House?
I thought He was going to Salt Lake City.!
Just a belated thought on Colin’s piece. I think it’s important to maintain the distinction between “supernatural” and “metaphysical”. I’m fine with the latter…..