The election of a new pope has taken less than three weeks from the death / resignation of the previous incumbent on every occasion it has happened in the past 100 years. 28 Feb–13 Mar 2013, 2–19 April 2005, 28 Sep–16 Oct 1978, 6–26 Aug 1978, 3–21 Jun 1963, 9–28 Oct 1958, 10 Feb–2 Mar 1939, 22 Jan–6 Feb 1922. Yes, it was slower in the past, but so were a lot of things. Why does it take the Church of England so long to do what the Catholic Church can do in a few weeks? Is there any evidence… Read more »
I can suggest an answer to your first question. In the Church of England the appointment involves input from priests (or possibly deacons) and lay people. Additionally, Canterbury takes its place in the queue of episcopal appointments. Whilst space might be left for an expected vacancy at Canterbury, the current vacancy occurred earlier than might have been allowed for. So it has probably had to wait for the slot that had been planned anyway. This might well have been after a vacancy was announced but before it took effect, still leaving ample room for a more leisured and considered process… Read more »
Well, that’s a first level answer: it takes longer, because the selectorate is larger. I suppose the second level would need to engage with why the CofE has a process involving that larger number of people, and its value. There is a tendency to believe that the more people you involve in a decision, the better the outcomes. The alternative is that the more people involved, the less seriously everyone takes it: when your voice is one of a hundred, you can neither influence things positively nor can you really be held responsible when it goes wrong. So why bother… Read more »
I’d suggest that it is long part of our Anglican identity that lay people are involved, and that parliamentary and more recently synodical government has long shaped us. Granted that bishops have not always been appointed by that process, but the current process has evolved from the various strands that went before. I agree that recent changes to the rules for election of ViSCs and of CNC members were perhaps not as well thought through as they might have been. I support the STV system but adding constraints, especially when only a small number of candidates is to be elected,… Read more »
My normal behaviour is to do something and ask for forgiveness afterwards, rather than asking permission first. It usually works – having a workgroup or managers to decide and gain consensus is painful and comes to worse decisions, at least in my professional life. For example, I have a workgroup with their first meeting in 3 weeks, I will do the work before hand and provide them with a faite accompli. But I will leave them with plenty of scope for endless discussions, for things I know will not be implemented for years. It’s like the best meetings – the… Read more »
The Roman Catholic Church is run by a self-perpetuating oligarchy: an on-the-whole well intentioned one, of course. It doesn’t usually take long for such an organisation to come up with a new leader when the current one dies — see modern Russian history. The Reformation has left the CofE in a position where there are many parts of the realm with a voice in the election. We should perhaps regard that as an inefficient, no doubt, but not unwelcome development.
Jane Charman
20 days ago
My sisterly advice to anyone haunted by an existential question is to consult a good exorcist and then get on with the practical work of selecting, maintaining and delivering your campaign aim. A ‘vision that understands the universal, cosmic essence of the sacred, holy, divine presence in creation’ sounds about as useful as a dew bespangled cobweb and best kept for the theological debating society or your next guided retreat. To anyone thinking of joining (or leaving) a campaign organisation at this point I suggest asking the following question: is it clear what they stand for and what they’re trying… Read more »
Quite the contrary. A ‘vision that understands the universal, cosmic essence of the sacred, holy, divine presence in creation’ sounds like a good starting point for people, perhaps with differing religious backgrounds, to consider: – the integrity of ecosystems – the inter-related and fragile life of our planet – the sacredness of non-human life and lives – the sacred humanity of refugees, asylum seekers and migrants – the sacred humanity of women and girls and their right to autonomy and resource to pursue their skills and gifts – the sacred humanity of LGBT people and their right to autonomy and… Read more »
And what about the universal essence of the divine in other parts of the cosmos, if we’re talking about cosmic essence? Why limit the scope of your enquiry?
In the faith that ‘in the beginning was the Word…all things came into being through him’ I wouldn’t limit the scope, Janet. But, while contemplating the awesome mystery of the universe, I think it’s helpful to focus on the things I and we can do something about.
It’s a great vision, Rob, positively luminous, but what are you actually going to do about it? It seems to me (and I’d be interested to know what others think) that the campaign for gay rights previously fought by organisations such as LGCM has somehow run out of steam and there has been little forward momentum for quite some time now. People I know who ten years ago would have been talking robustly about social justice are now more likely to be musing on their personal journey, inner mystical experience, cosmic essence or whatever. I’ll venture a theory that this… Read more »
Jane Charman, Rob Hall and Janet Fife – thank you for engaging with my blog and vision. Has the campaign for gay rights run out of steam? And are people who ten years ago were talking about social justice now more likely to be musing on their personal journey and inner mystical experience or cosmic essence. Yours is an incredibly limited, unaware perspective of the changes I have witnessed of the last ten, twenty, thirty, sixty years – and dismissive of my own experience. The world of those earlier eras has changed, dramatically, in complex ways. It’s always doing this.… Read more »
I agree but why would you then go into reverse gear, adopt the paradigm of those who are hindering us, and base “rights” solely on materialist sacramentalism (in eucharist, ordination, church weddings), something Jesus wouldn’t endorse unless those who control those accompany that with His real Holy Spirit meanings? Their Majesties no longer command the entire public to uphold the Act of Uniformity. But it strikes me true ecumenism (some hearts to some more hearts) has often been replaced by false ecumenism (organisations to multi-organisational monoliths). Ordinary people will understand christian faith better once it appears to be about the moral… Read more »
Michael – from where do you get the idea that I am going into reverse gear and adopting the paradigm of those who are hindering us? Insofar as I understand what you advocate, I think we are sharing similar ideas and visions.
Adrian’s phrase “muscular universalism” picks up a bit of the flavour. When we feel like it, we can glimpse beyond compulsory denominational foibles and package deals (as fixed template). One can never get too sharp. I have often been anglican in attendance but am not “anglican in theology” so my theoretical critiquing may be thought impertinent.
Too much good advice in one post, but campaigning for muscular universalism sounds more like the Liberal Party and Momentum 10 years ago and that didn’t end well for either party. Reform is the result, and I suppose we should add Trumpism in the US. So today’s local election vote will be interesting as it poses the question of what now for liberal democracy? Maybe not so liberal. But post modernism is something that charismatic evangelicals, and Pentecostalism in particular, have been responding to for over a century now and is a well established movement that younger people in particular… Read more »
I think you ask some good very good questions here Jane, but people might come up with different answers depending on their experience and background. Speaking from my own experience, I think that one key factor is the vicious and well funded anti “woke” and anti progressive campaign in the press and on social media that has poisoned the discourse. I accept that some of the progressive side have also sometimes been toxic. But it is not easy nowadays for people like LGCM to make headway against huge, well organised campaigns funded by American Tech Bros and right-wing billionaires.… Read more »
A 30% increase in baptisms in the Catholic Church in the US (and for that matter in France) has happened independently of the favored (but frankly a bit lazy) instinct always to invoke the dreaded name Donald Trump. Like tribes shaking masks at each other. I belong to a group who doesn’t need to have him take up residence in my head — something he has done better than anything else. I rejoice in a new generation that has found Jesus Christ in the Orthodox Way and in the RCC. I’d wager less than 5% are wearing ‘MAGA hats.’ One… Read more »
There are certainly ways to test your supposition. In France, where I work, the increase is in the younger generation. Immigrants are already Catholic.
Immigrants from Latin America into the US bring their Catholic faith with them. They aren’t part of a 30% baptism increase.
Not in France, which experienced the same 30% increase.
But I wonder what is at stake in your insistance on questioning the well-documented interest of young people in coming into the Catholic Church? Not immigrants.
Is it that it runs against the narrative that ‘all churches are in decline’ and so TEC having a severe issue with baptisms/marriages isn’t an outlier, vis-a-vis the RCC and other more traditional expressions of Christian faith?
The Orthodox Church (OCA) reported as well 20% increase of baptisms and reception into the Orthodox way. Are these ‘children of immigrants’? Of course not.
I think you should be a bit careful about talking up the RC Church in France all the time. There is of course a mixed picture, but basically the decline in churchgoing and general turning away from Christianity is common to pretty much all European countries at the moment. In France, the number of child baptisms has plummeted in recent decades, and it is thought that the uptick in adult baptisms reported this Easter is likely to be a consequence of that, i.e. people who would have been baptised already in past generations. The traditionalists continue to grow, by sticking… Read more »
I lived in rural France for five years. I could hear 3 angelus ringing from the presbytere where my wife and Ilved. The idea of 26 parishes, in villages of around 300-500, of the same denomination, within 20 miles has no known counterpart in the US. The only reason they exist is because the law of 1905 handed them to the communes to maintain, and they are at the center of villages and are historical. The portugese mayor of our town, as in all cases, has the key and is in charge of upkeep. She sits in the front row.… Read more »
Si je vous comprends tres bien, vous voulez contester cet extrait. “Le nombre de baptêmes catholiques d’adultes en France ne cesse de progresser. En deux ans, il a même doublé. Selon les chiffres de la conférence des évêques publiés le 10 avril, il y aura 10 384 baptêmes d’adultes lors de la nuit de Pâques du 19 au 20 avril prochain. Ils étaient 5 423 en 2023, 7135 en 2024. Aux chiffres de cette année s’ajoutent les baptêmes d’adolescents (entre 12 et 18 ans) qui connaissent, eux aussi, une progression spectaculaire : ils étaient 2953 en 2023, ils seront 7 404… Read more »
I think, if I recall correctly the discussion about this which they had on the radio (France Inter) the other week, that they said there were approx 400,000 child baptisms a year in France (20?) years ago, and that now there are only about 200,000 per year. I may be misremembering the details slightly, but it was something like that. And the average age of the diocesan clergy is what, 70 something now? It is hard to get honest attendance/membership statistics of any sort out of the RC Church, but when they do come into the public domain, as, for… Read more »
Yes, just looked it up on Riposte Catholique (posted 16/4/25): according to the bishops’ conference, there were, in 2000, approx 400,000 baptisms in total in France, of which just over 20,000 were aged over 7 yrs old; in 2023, there were 194,000 in total, of which 24,000 were over 7 yrs old.
Also, according to Riposte Catholique website, number of church marriages in 2000 was 120,000; in 2023 down to 40,000. Number of confirmations in 2000 was 62,000, in 2023 it was 42,700.
I don’t see anything increasing there. It looks to me like the same picture we see across denominations and European countries.
I wonder if any upturn in baptism/ practice is regional?. Church going has always been very regional in France. Much stronger in the north and in Brittany I think than in the centre. And poor east of Paris. Surely the scarcity of priests must be a real problem. The Church has imported from francophone Africa but this brings it’s own problems. I have been impressed by how organised the laity are when I visit friends in St Omer.
Now you’ve started me on a quest for statistics, I look up the Catholic Record Society Catholicism in Numbers data on their website, and find that the RC Church in England & Wales has followed a similar trajectory: in 2000, they had 62,000 baptisms per year (down from a high of 120,000 in 1960). In 2022, their figure stood at 40,500. (In this case, it is worth bearing in mind that their drop comes despite it having been a period when significant numbers of Roman Catholics have immigrated into the country, so you would expect a subsequent large rise rather… Read more »
Ah, there we are, RC mass attendance for England & Wales given on the Catholic Record Society Catholicism in Numbers website as approx 1,000,000 in 2000; approx half a million in 2022. The high point was the 1960s, when it was almost 2 million. (Again, bear in mind there has been an enormous increase due to immigration of the potential RC mass-going population during that period, so one would expect the figure to have increased greatly rather than fallen, other things being equal.) One could go on, around all the countries of Europe, with each mainstream denomination, and the tale… Read more »
I can only say that in my own area (the Philadelphia suburbs, archdiocese of Philadelphia) no such increase in youthful interest in the RC church is in evidence. Several parishes have either closed or combined with other parishes in the past decade. Of those that still exist, they have either closed their elementary schools or, again, combined them into a single “regional” school. Three or four Catholic high schools have also either closed or announced a planned closing when the current classes have completed their time there (not accepting new students). Two of the local Catholic colleges or universities have… Read more »
Le nombre de baptêmes catholiques d’adultes en France ne cesse de progresser. En deux ans, il a même doublé. Selon les chiffres de la conférence des évêques publiés le 10 avril, il y aura 10 384 baptêmes d’adultes lors de la nuit de Pâques du 19 au 20 avril prochain. Ils étaient 5 423 en 2023, 7135 en 2024. Aux chiffres de cette année s’ajoutent les baptêmes d’adolescents (entre 12 et 18 ans) qui connaissent, eux aussi, une progression spectaculaire : ils étaient 2953 en 2023, ils seront 7 404 en 2025. En tout, 17 788 adolescents et adultes seront baptisés,… Read more »
FTR, Philadelphia is the sixth largest diocese in the USA, behind Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Boston, and Brooklyn. I think that makes it pretty representative of the nation as a whole
Well in the spirit of your comment and as one boomer to another may I say…OK boomer priest. lol. Let’ s just hope that Francis is not the last pope concerned about the fate of the earth, or the last pope to make phone check ins with Palestinian Christians.
Again, as one boomer to another ( in fact, I think you and I may be exactly the same age) you have a point about TA and the boomer thing. That you and I are both illustrative of your point is my observation. I think the narrow demographic is one of several reasons I’ve become bored with the site as of late.
As for your tag line, I’ve heard you on the subject of modernity here accountable times in the past. But do solider on. I’d stay and engage you but I fear the nostalgia would underwhelm me. lol.
Forgive me but, though your personalizing seems genuine, I have no idea who you are. I am in the boomer demographic, but have to engage Gen Z and X in my work on a regular basis. Perhaps you don’t. I teach, listen, observe and must understand a generation not remotely my own. It is nt my ‘tag line’ but arises from discussions within Catholic circles concerning the election of a new Pope for a different world that that of Francis. ‘Fate of the earth’, ‘phoning Palestinians,’ and so on sound politically oriented, not hallmarks of the Jesuit Francis at any… Read more »
Phrases like ‘boomer theology’ and ‘boomer liturgy’ are not uncommon in the argot of our lovely social media world. Used in this way ‘boomer this or that’ is a catch phrase deployed as a put down. Your use of it here seems to drift into that lane. Interesting given you are boomer as well. Given the birthdates of my adult children/grand children generations X, Y, Z, are all represented. And of course, I encounter all sorts and conditions in the parish lo these many decades. However, and as noted, TA does seem to be predominantly in the boomer cohort. That… Read more »
The 8th of May arrives in France shortly and TV is most concerned with the disposition of countries here, now in a new age when those who lived (and died) in the context of armistice are almost extinguished. Russia was once the putative ally of France and those who fought Nazi Germany.
Indeed. Today is also Battle of the Atlantic Sunday here. My father was a Canadian combat veteran of WW2, including a veteran of Falaise Gap. Given the lives lost by his generation, he would be astonished and horrified at the break down of the post world war two rules based international order, and the current disorder for which there is lots of blame to go around, including for former Commonwealth Forces allies. The world of my grandchildren, whom I think about and pray for every single day, is one that faces several severe existential threats, the most pressing of which… Read more »
“I think about and pray for every single day, is one that faces several severe existential threats, the most pressing of which is climate change.”
Given the state of affairs re Europe, reconfiguring its identity after the end of the cold war and now its present realities, vis-a-vis a China and a struggling EU, bathroom choices are indeed trivial.
This entire trans discussion exposes how completely bifurcating it is — just follow the discussion at TA alone.
Personally I think the luxury of campaigning for this group or that is something for the past. The question right now is how do we stop the slide into fascism. I would like to think the Church of England would speak out about the danger but it is so institutionally slow, and the slide so headlong, that by the time the Church says anything it will be far too late.
If christians took an honest initiative to propose graspable terminology (instead of outsourcing vocabulary to contractors) there would be less scope for interlopers to sabotage delicate personal affairs (the occurrence I suppose is not “vanishingly” small). Genuine cases do not enter transpersonhood specifically in order to compete in sports; but I think sport organisations should use fair discretion about whether to set up additional classes of competition. Similarly, venues with one, two or three sorts of toilet should adapt usage customs appropriate to what they’ve got. Changing rooms getting used as training (pep talk) place should lead to a rethink:… Read more »
Not sure if I follow everything you are saying, but feel you are saying something important. [ps. what do you mean by contractor? To me a contractor is someone who is self employed and works for fixed price or daily rates]. Included in excluding myself? Yes! I have written before about the inherent structural nonsense about inclusivity. Non-tactile? Yes, do not touch me, unless my wife or children or close friends. Essentialising the eucharist? Tricky ground, if I understand what you are saying, but have some sympathy. My view is mainly about proportionality and sports. I am a member of… Read more »
I couldn’t help it – found this passage when researching Zossima. Brothers, do not fear man’s sins. Love man in his sin too, for such love resembles God’s love, the highest possible form of love on earth. Love God’s creation, love every atom of it separately, and love it also as a whole; love every green leaf, every ray of God’s light; love the animals and the plants and love every inanimate object. If you come to love all things, you will perceive God’s mystery inherent in all things; once you have perceived it, you will understand it better and… Read more »
Hi Jane, thank you for your response. It reminds me of my response to reading Ephesians 1 this morning: an amazing vision, but what does it look like? For myself, in my circumstances, it looks like: – committing myself more deeply and consistently to those campaigning bodies (for me in the areas of human rights, migration and the environment) for which I have particular concern – working together building a church in which all are equally loved and valued and heard as children of God in need of Grace – trying to see and treat all I meet in our… Read more »
Also, rights are utterly vital. But so is individual story. To say, ‘you can live at peace, work without abuse, get married’ etc etc is vitally important. But so is hearing ‘you and your story are precious and valued’.
I agree with much of what you said Jane. Traditionalists are laser focussed on what we want. That is simply to hold to the clear teaching of Scripture in our churches. However, you speak of a postmodern approach to truth. Isn’t that the same approach that led to affirming theology taking hold in the church? The texts of Scripture are abandoned as being objectively true and authoritative in order to give way to personal experience. Why shouldn’t this be employed by those who want to adopt a postmodern view of gender? I think you’re onto something but your argument lacks… Read more »
The “clear teaching of Scripture” simply IS the “personal experience” (experience of interpretation) of one group of people (who then label that interpretation as “objectively true”, not to mention “orthdox” and “Traditionalist”).
My belief-system comes from Anglican traditions. I believe it to be True and, therefore, “right belief” (orthodox). Nevertheless, I am still willing to be Church with the former group. Is that invitation reciprocated? I live in hope…
“Postmodernism questions the existence of universal truths and objective reality, emphasizing the subjective and contextual nature of knowledge.” You’ve just done this as you’ve rejected the idea that God can reveal Himself objectively and authoritatively in Scripture. No, words have meanings and they can’t be made to mean whatever we want them to mean. The Scriptures are clear on marriage, sexual ethics and gender at least from a New Testament perspective. Jane is right to question moving away from objective reality to subjective experience on every topic but isn’t being consistent. She wants to insist on this for gender identity… Read more »
“words have meanings and they can’t be made to mean whatever we want them to mean”. So, what does the word “marriage” mean? In your answer consider what the word translated as marriage might have meant at the time of Abraham, at the time of David, at the time of Jesus, and at, say 1850 and 1950.
I think we have to be practical and establish how our goals are to be obtained in the world of real flesh and blood situations, rather than philosophical debate. This morning’s council election results suggest that a great many people are opting for the former, whether or not we like the outcome (and I personally don’t like Reform or Trump, but have to live with them). My suspicion is that the recent Supreme Court decision, which has already scared a good many government institutions and is having very swift results in the sporting world, may in fact be a turning… Read more »
With the greatest respect you are overlooking the role of the media in this, including social media. Why do you think Musk bought Twitter?
In this country pretty much all of the print media is right wing. The Guardian vacillates but is no longer reliably left wing. My left-leaning friends no longer trust the BBC. Just look how much more airtime and press coverage Reform have had compared to the Greens.
Yes, the country has concerns about immigration but it’s being amplified by the media.
Nigel Ashworth
20 days ago
The Roman Church definitely does it better. We prefer super-complex committee structures. Unfortunately, this means that the process looks like it is trying to triangulate multiple hidden agendas. Can it be that this is exactly what it is doing? Do we in the Church imagine that nobody notices what is obvious?
Added to that the diocese had made an utter fool of everyone involved in the election. Would it not be better if the King did a bit of supreme governing? I wish he would.
Philip Groves
19 days ago
Colin – Thank you for remembering MRI. I just want to clarify the origin of the Kuala Lumpur statement. You say; ‘The Kuala Lumpur Conference of 1997 that resourced conservative dominance at Lambeth 1998’. This was the second South/South conference and during that conference the Kuala Lumpur Statement was never considered or discussed. I have looked through all the conference notes. It was read out on the last day and its origins are not clear, but it seems to have been written by people living in the West. It was manipulated to appear as if it was the product of… Read more »
Phil – thanks so much for adding more accurate information about the Kuala Lumpur conference and statement. Some years ago I read through the information about the conference available online, but I don’t have your much more personal experience of the Anglican Communion, it’s history and multiple identities. I was eighteen when the idea of MRI was coined at Toronto Conference, the same year that Honest to God was published. I vividly remember being strongly attracted to the phrase. I was probably the only person in the congregation at St Barnabas Southfields who was. I certainly wasn’t aware that twenty-four… Read more »
The initiative for the South/South meetings was a response to MRI. The processes meant to bring it about failed and the powerful ‘donor’ provinces and their mission agencies and boards still dominated. If you read the speech by Bp Simon Chiwanga that launched the South South initiative (I think it was at the precursor conference) you will see he bases his call for the South South encounters on the ‘Anglican Turning Point’ of 63 and MRI. However, conservative leaders from the North realised that they had lost the argument over women in leadership and sought allies to stop LGBTIQ+ inclusion.… Read more »
if only we can get past conservatives, things would be so much better. Dream on! Churches in the global south are perfectly capable of acting and thinking for themselves whatever western bishops or archbishops may do or think. This is what MRI is about and the views of the global south churches should be better represented in Anglican communion rather than dismissed. There is of course an argument under MRI for the Church of England to become just that, rather than a global communion, and maybe this will happen sooner rather than later.
Sorry Adrian – My mother was in hospital so I missed this reply. The point is that the Churches of the Global south should have a voice. They are diverse and not ‘conservative’ – they often have radical agendas in indigenising worship and challenging misogyny. The Anglican churches of the Global South now largely ignore the Fellowship of Global South Anglicans and the dynamism is in the Council of Anglican Provinces in Africa and the Council of Churches in East Asia (which is an entirely Anglican organisation). These focus on issues in Africa and Asia – not on what is… Read more »
Is that what the hospital does in an MRI scan, Janet? It sounds like it might be and, like you, is the only use I know of that acronym. (I had one recently, concerning a brain hemorrhage, which is how I know!)
I’ve had several, after two different pulmonary embolisms, and it was excellent at finding all the blood clots scattered around my lungs!
On blood thinners for life now, no problem. But a bit scary when it happened. Funny story – first time in St Thomas, one of the nurses/assistants was my son’s girlfriend. Luckily she did not have to do an examination of me. Happily married now and expecting in a month or two.
Mutual Responsibility and Interdependence.
MR comes from Max Warren’s work in the 1950s on Partnership and his axiom – Only the whole world knows the whole truth.
Interdependence was a word coined by Harold Macmillan in his ‘Wind of Change’ speech and picked up on by Bp Stephen Bayne.
It led to the declaration by Michael Ramsey that no church should ever refer to itself as ‘mother’ and that the language of inferiority and superiority.
… what an interesting piece of research … the Kuala Lumpur Statement was finessed it seems .. but so much about Anglicanism seems to have been finessed by one lot or another. Madeup on the run, just as Andrew describes in the process of nominating to the See of Canterbury. So we get this communiqué pretending the last communiqué was the voice of the Church and quasi-law. It was painful to watch. No mention of Sydney? A couple of encounters with their top lawyer at Ecclesiastical law conferences and other forums led many to think their money and influence was… Read more »
Martin, Sydney funded much of the later progress of ‘The Global South’ – questions were asked in Diocesan Synod there in the 2010s as to how appropriate that was.
I assumed you knew. No one actually made the claim that the Statement was a product of the second South South encounter, just that it was read out there.
I am puzzled by Colin’s list of organizations. They don’t all seem to me to be working within Anglicanism (or even within the C of E), even if they do contain progressive travellers who would have sympathies with those with similar views within Anglicanism. I am interested in the comments further up the thread about whether the gay rights movement has run out of steam. It seems to me that it is a very long time since there has been any progress at all in the Church of England. That inertia has been firmly secured by the LLF processes and… Read more »
As someone who was involved at different levels in the LLF process I simply do not recognise this claim. It is certainly true some had a vested interested in blocking it by any means, but that was not the founding intention or the hope of the many who worked very hard and often at such cost to facilitate this remarkable, and actually quite unique, churchwide, theological consultation.
Considering the theological work has yet to be completed it can hardly be considered to be a theological consultation, maybe this is what makes it remarkable. More smoke and mirrors which will not end well for LLF.
What a strange comment. This has been a discernment process involving the most extensive theological and pastoral consultation the CofE has ever conducted. It has been a radically new discernment process for seeking the mind of the church, particularly over conflicted issues. It is not surprising therefore if we are now struggling over how to take this forward. It is challenging our more familiar, established ways of doing business. The consultation continues. Importantly this has not been directive ‘front stage’ leading, ‘telling’ people what the truth is – though conservatives have been guilty of precisely this approach. Rather this has required… Read more »
“A reminder that every small bit of good you do – whether it be putting art into the world, helping a friend or stranger, donating to a good cause, or just listening to someone who needs to vent – offsets all the evil in the world just a little bit. And sometimes that’s just what the world needs.”
It so aligns with my thinking.
Realist
19 days ago
I’m afraid where all this numinous interconnected introspection (if that isn’t a contradiction in terms) is going is far too much navel gazing for this bear of little brain. So I’ll leave it to those to whom it speaks, and just keep on doing what I’ve always tried to do. Though I’m not a medic the fundamental principle in which the Hippocratic Oath is grounded expresses my aim well, despite it not actually being contained therein: ‘first do no harm.’
Pam Wilkinson
18 days ago
I found Colin Coward’s piece interesting and informative (I am a member of two of those groups and also belong to a centering prayer group – perhaps Contemplative Outreach could be added to the list). I had to google “MRI” and was glad to find I wasn’t the only person to think it was that clanking thing they put you in in hospital. . The search for what Colin calls a “new kind of God” does not, for me, fit well with the goal of “a church” where everyone shares a common vision and passion. The former is surely about untrammelled… Read more »
Francis James
18 days ago
For those saying that RC Church do it so much better with their swifter papal election system, worth noting that social media is showing quite a lot of mud-slinging as regards some potential leading candidates. I have blocked when it appears on my feed, because it is not my thing, but I am sure that there will be a lot more if you wish.
Just looking at some of the Conservative RC websites this week bears out what you say. Rorate Caeli is one of the less intemperate, but even there…
I think the divisions within the RC Church are harsher than those within Anglicanism, in fact. They have just been kept from coming out so much into the open by the very top-down system of governance.
J C Fisher
17 days ago
A word to Colin C:
a group or organization representing the experience and goals and campaigning zeal of black and brown and yellow people
I don’t believe the phrase “yellow people” is properly used anymore. It’s really not descriptive, and has too much racist residue of “Yellow Peril” (used re Asian peoples). If you mean Asian, use “Asian”. Otherwise “People of Color” (and/or the color “Brown”) are suitable umbrella terms.
Mark, sorry I am working in France just now and can’t keep track of your comments. You seem to think growth someplace and non-growth somewhere else is a zero-sum analysis. I don’t. The Church of England isn’t comparable to the RCC (which in England itself–perhaps a better standard of measurement–the RCC now has more in attendance on Sunday). The distance to the ground for the CofE is much shorter. Malheureusement. I am glad that HTB and other select churches exhibit robust attendance and faith, just as I rejoice for signs of the same in France. Chemin Neuf stirs my heart.… Read more »
The election of a new pope has taken less than three weeks from the death / resignation of the previous incumbent on every occasion it has happened in the past 100 years. 28 Feb–13 Mar 2013, 2–19 April 2005, 28 Sep–16 Oct 1978, 6–26 Aug 1978, 3–21 Jun 1963, 9–28 Oct 1958, 10 Feb–2 Mar 1939, 22 Jan–6 Feb 1922. Yes, it was slower in the past, but so were a lot of things. Why does it take the Church of England so long to do what the Catholic Church can do in a few weeks? Is there any evidence… Read more »
I can suggest an answer to your first question. In the Church of England the appointment involves input from priests (or possibly deacons) and lay people. Additionally, Canterbury takes its place in the queue of episcopal appointments. Whilst space might be left for an expected vacancy at Canterbury, the current vacancy occurred earlier than might have been allowed for. So it has probably had to wait for the slot that had been planned anyway. This might well have been after a vacancy was announced but before it took effect, still leaving ample room for a more leisured and considered process… Read more »
Well, that’s a first level answer: it takes longer, because the selectorate is larger. I suppose the second level would need to engage with why the CofE has a process involving that larger number of people, and its value. There is a tendency to believe that the more people you involve in a decision, the better the outcomes. The alternative is that the more people involved, the less seriously everyone takes it: when your voice is one of a hundred, you can neither influence things positively nor can you really be held responsible when it goes wrong. So why bother… Read more »
I’d suggest that it is long part of our Anglican identity that lay people are involved, and that parliamentary and more recently synodical government has long shaped us. Granted that bishops have not always been appointed by that process, but the current process has evolved from the various strands that went before. I agree that recent changes to the rules for election of ViSCs and of CNC members were perhaps not as well thought through as they might have been. I support the STV system but adding constraints, especially when only a small number of candidates is to be elected,… Read more »
My normal behaviour is to do something and ask for forgiveness afterwards, rather than asking permission first. It usually works – having a workgroup or managers to decide and gain consensus is painful and comes to worse decisions, at least in my professional life. For example, I have a workgroup with their first meeting in 3 weeks, I will do the work before hand and provide them with a faite accompli. But I will leave them with plenty of scope for endless discussions, for things I know will not be implemented for years. It’s like the best meetings – the… Read more »
The Roman Catholic Church is run by a self-perpetuating oligarchy: an on-the-whole well intentioned one, of course. It doesn’t usually take long for such an organisation to come up with a new leader when the current one dies — see modern Russian history. The Reformation has left the CofE in a position where there are many parts of the realm with a voice in the election. We should perhaps regard that as an inefficient, no doubt, but not unwelcome development.
My sisterly advice to anyone haunted by an existential question is to consult a good exorcist and then get on with the practical work of selecting, maintaining and delivering your campaign aim. A ‘vision that understands the universal, cosmic essence of the sacred, holy, divine presence in creation’ sounds about as useful as a dew bespangled cobweb and best kept for the theological debating society or your next guided retreat. To anyone thinking of joining (or leaving) a campaign organisation at this point I suggest asking the following question: is it clear what they stand for and what they’re trying… Read more »
Quite the contrary. A ‘vision that understands the universal, cosmic essence of the sacred, holy, divine presence in creation’ sounds like a good starting point for people, perhaps with differing religious backgrounds, to consider: – the integrity of ecosystems – the inter-related and fragile life of our planet – the sacredness of non-human life and lives – the sacred humanity of refugees, asylum seekers and migrants – the sacred humanity of women and girls and their right to autonomy and resource to pursue their skills and gifts – the sacred humanity of LGBT people and their right to autonomy and… Read more »
And what about the universal essence of the divine in other parts of the cosmos, if we’re talking about cosmic essence? Why limit the scope of your enquiry?
In the faith that ‘in the beginning was the Word…all things came into being through him’ I wouldn’t limit the scope, Janet. But, while contemplating the awesome mystery of the universe, I think it’s helpful to focus on the things I and we can do something about.
It’s a great vision, Rob, positively luminous, but what are you actually going to do about it? It seems to me (and I’d be interested to know what others think) that the campaign for gay rights previously fought by organisations such as LGCM has somehow run out of steam and there has been little forward momentum for quite some time now. People I know who ten years ago would have been talking robustly about social justice are now more likely to be musing on their personal journey, inner mystical experience, cosmic essence or whatever. I’ll venture a theory that this… Read more »
Jane Charman, Rob Hall and Janet Fife – thank you for engaging with my blog and vision. Has the campaign for gay rights run out of steam? And are people who ten years ago were talking about social justice now more likely to be musing on their personal journey and inner mystical experience or cosmic essence. Yours is an incredibly limited, unaware perspective of the changes I have witnessed of the last ten, twenty, thirty, sixty years – and dismissive of my own experience. The world of those earlier eras has changed, dramatically, in complex ways. It’s always doing this.… Read more »
I agree but why would you then go into reverse gear, adopt the paradigm of those who are hindering us, and base “rights” solely on materialist sacramentalism (in eucharist, ordination, church weddings), something Jesus wouldn’t endorse unless those who control those accompany that with His real Holy Spirit meanings? Their Majesties no longer command the entire public to uphold the Act of Uniformity. But it strikes me true ecumenism (some hearts to some more hearts) has often been replaced by false ecumenism (organisations to multi-organisational monoliths). Ordinary people will understand christian faith better once it appears to be about the moral… Read more »
Michael – from where do you get the idea that I am going into reverse gear and adopting the paradigm of those who are hindering us? Insofar as I understand what you advocate, I think we are sharing similar ideas and visions.
Adrian’s phrase “muscular universalism” picks up a bit of the flavour. When we feel like it, we can glimpse beyond compulsory denominational foibles and package deals (as fixed template). One can never get too sharp. I have often been anglican in attendance but am not “anglican in theology” so my theoretical critiquing may be thought impertinent.
Too much good advice in one post, but campaigning for muscular universalism sounds more like the Liberal Party and Momentum 10 years ago and that didn’t end well for either party. Reform is the result, and I suppose we should add Trumpism in the US. So today’s local election vote will be interesting as it poses the question of what now for liberal democracy? Maybe not so liberal. But post modernism is something that charismatic evangelicals, and Pentecostalism in particular, have been responding to for over a century now and is a well established movement that younger people in particular… Read more »
I think you ask some good very good questions here Jane, but people might come up with different answers depending on their experience and background. Speaking from my own experience, I think that one key factor is the vicious and well funded anti “woke” and anti progressive campaign in the press and on social media that has poisoned the discourse. I accept that some of the progressive side have also sometimes been toxic. But it is not easy nowadays for people like LGCM to make headway against huge, well organised campaigns funded by American Tech Bros and right-wing billionaires.… Read more »
A 30% increase in baptisms in the Catholic Church in the US (and for that matter in France) has happened independently of the favored (but frankly a bit lazy) instinct always to invoke the dreaded name Donald Trump. Like tribes shaking masks at each other. I belong to a group who doesn’t need to have him take up residence in my head — something he has done better than anything else. I rejoice in a new generation that has found Jesus Christ in the Orthodox Way and in the RCC. I’d wager less than 5% are wearing ‘MAGA hats.’ One… Read more »
It is my understanding that the increase in baptisms in the US Catholic Church is largely the result of immigration from Latin America.
There are certainly ways to test your supposition. In France, where I work, the increase is in the younger generation. Immigrants are already Catholic.
Immigrants from Latin America into the US bring their Catholic faith with them. They aren’t part of a 30% baptism increase.
But their children are.
Not in France, which experienced the same 30% increase.
But I wonder what is at stake in your insistance on questioning the well-documented interest of young people in coming into the Catholic Church? Not immigrants.
Is it that it runs against the narrative that ‘all churches are in decline’ and so TEC having a severe issue with baptisms/marriages isn’t an outlier, vis-a-vis the RCC and other more traditional expressions of Christian faith?
The Orthodox Church (OCA) reported as well 20% increase of baptisms and reception into the Orthodox way. Are these ‘children of immigrants’? Of course not.
I think you should be a bit careful about talking up the RC Church in France all the time. There is of course a mixed picture, but basically the decline in churchgoing and general turning away from Christianity is common to pretty much all European countries at the moment. In France, the number of child baptisms has plummeted in recent decades, and it is thought that the uptick in adult baptisms reported this Easter is likely to be a consequence of that, i.e. people who would have been baptised already in past generations. The traditionalists continue to grow, by sticking… Read more »
I lived in rural France for five years. I could hear 3 angelus ringing from the presbytere where my wife and Ilved. The idea of 26 parishes, in villages of around 300-500, of the same denomination, within 20 miles has no known counterpart in the US. The only reason they exist is because the law of 1905 handed them to the communes to maintain, and they are at the center of villages and are historical. The portugese mayor of our town, as in all cases, has the key and is in charge of upkeep. She sits in the front row.… Read more »
Si je vous comprends tres bien, vous voulez contester cet extrait. “Le nombre de baptêmes catholiques d’adultes en France ne cesse de progresser. En deux ans, il a même doublé. Selon les chiffres de la conférence des évêques publiés le 10 avril, il y aura 10 384 baptêmes d’adultes lors de la nuit de Pâques du 19 au 20 avril prochain. Ils étaient 5 423 en 2023, 7135 en 2024. Aux chiffres de cette année s’ajoutent les baptêmes d’adolescents (entre 12 et 18 ans) qui connaissent, eux aussi, une progression spectaculaire : ils étaient 2953 en 2023, ils seront 7 404… Read more »
I think, if I recall correctly the discussion about this which they had on the radio (France Inter) the other week, that they said there were approx 400,000 child baptisms a year in France (20?) years ago, and that now there are only about 200,000 per year. I may be misremembering the details slightly, but it was something like that. And the average age of the diocesan clergy is what, 70 something now? It is hard to get honest attendance/membership statistics of any sort out of the RC Church, but when they do come into the public domain, as, for… Read more »
Yes, just looked it up on Riposte Catholique (posted 16/4/25): according to the bishops’ conference, there were, in 2000, approx 400,000 baptisms in total in France, of which just over 20,000 were aged over 7 yrs old; in 2023, there were 194,000 in total, of which 24,000 were over 7 yrs old.
Also, according to Riposte Catholique website, number of church marriages in 2000 was 120,000; in 2023 down to 40,000. Number of confirmations in 2000 was 62,000, in 2023 it was 42,700.
I don’t see anything increasing there. It looks to me like the same picture we see across denominations and European countries.
I wonder if any upturn in baptism/ practice is regional?. Church going has always been very regional in France. Much stronger in the north and in Brittany I think than in the centre. And poor east of Paris. Surely the scarcity of priests must be a real problem. The Church has imported from francophone Africa but this brings it’s own problems. I have been impressed by how organised the laity are when I visit friends in St Omer.
Now you’ve started me on a quest for statistics, I look up the Catholic Record Society Catholicism in Numbers data on their website, and find that the RC Church in England & Wales has followed a similar trajectory: in 2000, they had 62,000 baptisms per year (down from a high of 120,000 in 1960). In 2022, their figure stood at 40,500. (In this case, it is worth bearing in mind that their drop comes despite it having been a period when significant numbers of Roman Catholics have immigrated into the country, so you would expect a subsequent large rise rather… Read more »
Ah, there we are, RC mass attendance for England & Wales given on the Catholic Record Society Catholicism in Numbers website as approx 1,000,000 in 2000; approx half a million in 2022. The high point was the 1960s, when it was almost 2 million. (Again, bear in mind there has been an enormous increase due to immigration of the potential RC mass-going population during that period, so one would expect the figure to have increased greatly rather than fallen, other things being equal.) One could go on, around all the countries of Europe, with each mainstream denomination, and the tale… Read more »
I can only say that in my own area (the Philadelphia suburbs, archdiocese of Philadelphia) no such increase in youthful interest in the RC church is in evidence. Several parishes have either closed or combined with other parishes in the past decade. Of those that still exist, they have either closed their elementary schools or, again, combined them into a single “regional” school. Three or four Catholic high schools have also either closed or announced a planned closing when the current classes have completed their time there (not accepting new students). Two of the local Catholic colleges or universities have… Read more »
Le nombre de baptêmes catholiques d’adultes en France ne cesse de progresser. En deux ans, il a même doublé. Selon les chiffres de la conférence des évêques publiés le 10 avril, il y aura 10 384 baptêmes d’adultes lors de la nuit de Pâques du 19 au 20 avril prochain. Ils étaient 5 423 en 2023, 7135 en 2024. Aux chiffres de cette année s’ajoutent les baptêmes d’adolescents (entre 12 et 18 ans) qui connaissent, eux aussi, une progression spectaculaire : ils étaient 2953 en 2023, ils seront 7 404 en 2025. En tout, 17 788 adolescents et adultes seront baptisés,… Read more »
FTR, Philadelphia is the sixth largest diocese in the USA, behind Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Boston, and Brooklyn. I think that makes it pretty representative of the nation as a whole
Well in the spirit of your comment and as one boomer to another may I say…OK boomer priest. lol. Let’ s just hope that Francis is not the last pope concerned about the fate of the earth, or the last pope to make phone check ins with Palestinian Christians.
https://www.ncronline.org/opinion/guest-voices/pope-francis-let-young-people-lead-and-amazing-things-happened
https://www.npr.org/2025/04/22/g-s1-62064/pope-francis-gaza-church-palestinian-christians
“The last modern pope” is a tag line. It doesn’t have to do with “the fate of the earth” or as Francis would put it, honoring God the Creator.
Modernity isn’t about phoning Palestinians either.
Again, as one boomer to another ( in fact, I think you and I may be exactly the same age) you have a point about TA and the boomer thing. That you and I are both illustrative of your point is my observation. I think the narrow demographic is one of several reasons I’ve become bored with the site as of late.
As for your tag line, I’ve heard you on the subject of modernity here accountable times in the past. But do solider on. I’d stay and engage you but I fear the nostalgia would underwhelm me. lol.
Forgive me but, though your personalizing seems genuine, I have no idea who you are. I am in the boomer demographic, but have to engage Gen Z and X in my work on a regular basis. Perhaps you don’t. I teach, listen, observe and must understand a generation not remotely my own. It is nt my ‘tag line’ but arises from discussions within Catholic circles concerning the election of a new Pope for a different world that that of Francis. ‘Fate of the earth’, ‘phoning Palestinians,’ and so on sound politically oriented, not hallmarks of the Jesuit Francis at any… Read more »
Phrases like ‘boomer theology’ and ‘boomer liturgy’ are not uncommon in the argot of our lovely social media world. Used in this way ‘boomer this or that’ is a catch phrase deployed as a put down. Your use of it here seems to drift into that lane. Interesting given you are boomer as well. Given the birthdates of my adult children/grand children generations X, Y, Z, are all represented. And of course, I encounter all sorts and conditions in the parish lo these many decades. However, and as noted, TA does seem to be predominantly in the boomer cohort. That… Read more »
I cannot comment on Nova Scotia.
The 8th of May arrives in France shortly and TV is most concerned with the disposition of countries here, now in a new age when those who lived (and died) in the context of armistice are almost extinguished. Russia was once the putative ally of France and those who fought Nazi Germany.
We are finding our bearings in a new world order.
We are entering a non-boomer age.
This is the world of our grandchildren.
Here we are debating who can use a bathroom…
Indeed. Today is also Battle of the Atlantic Sunday here. My father was a Canadian combat veteran of WW2, including a veteran of Falaise Gap. Given the lives lost by his generation, he would be astonished and horrified at the break down of the post world war two rules based international order, and the current disorder for which there is lots of blame to go around, including for former Commonwealth Forces allies. The world of my grandchildren, whom I think about and pray for every single day, is one that faces several severe existential threats, the most pressing of which… Read more »
“I think about and pray for every single day, is one that faces several severe existential threats, the most pressing of which is climate change.”
Given the state of affairs re Europe, reconfiguring its identity after the end of the cold war and now its present realities, vis-a-vis a China and a struggling EU, bathroom choices are indeed trivial.
This entire trans discussion exposes how completely bifurcating it is — just follow the discussion at TA alone.
“I see no point in my adding anything further.”
That makes sense to me.
Personally I think the luxury of campaigning for this group or that is something for the past. The question right now is how do we stop the slide into fascism. I would like to think the Church of England would speak out about the danger but it is so institutionally slow, and the slide so headlong, that by the time the Church says anything it will be far too late.
If christians took an honest initiative to propose graspable terminology (instead of outsourcing vocabulary to contractors) there would be less scope for interlopers to sabotage delicate personal affairs (the occurrence I suppose is not “vanishingly” small). Genuine cases do not enter transpersonhood specifically in order to compete in sports; but I think sport organisations should use fair discretion about whether to set up additional classes of competition. Similarly, venues with one, two or three sorts of toilet should adapt usage customs appropriate to what they’ve got. Changing rooms getting used as training (pep talk) place should lead to a rethink:… Read more »
Not sure if I follow everything you are saying, but feel you are saying something important. [ps. what do you mean by contractor? To me a contractor is someone who is self employed and works for fixed price or daily rates]. Included in excluding myself? Yes! I have written before about the inherent structural nonsense about inclusivity. Non-tactile? Yes, do not touch me, unless my wife or children or close friends. Essentialising the eucharist? Tricky ground, if I understand what you are saying, but have some sympathy. My view is mainly about proportionality and sports. I am a member of… Read more »
I couldn’t help it – found this passage when researching Zossima. Brothers, do not fear man’s sins. Love man in his sin too, for such love resembles God’s love, the highest possible form of love on earth. Love God’s creation, love every atom of it separately, and love it also as a whole; love every green leaf, every ray of God’s light; love the animals and the plants and love every inanimate object. If you come to love all things, you will perceive God’s mystery inherent in all things; once you have perceived it, you will understand it better and… Read more »
Hi Jane, thank you for your response. It reminds me of my response to reading Ephesians 1 this morning: an amazing vision, but what does it look like? For myself, in my circumstances, it looks like: – committing myself more deeply and consistently to those campaigning bodies (for me in the areas of human rights, migration and the environment) for which I have particular concern – working together building a church in which all are equally loved and valued and heard as children of God in need of Grace – trying to see and treat all I meet in our… Read more »
Also, rights are utterly vital. But so is individual story. To say, ‘you can live at peace, work without abuse, get married’ etc etc is vitally important. But so is hearing ‘you and your story are precious and valued’.
I agree with much of what you said Jane. Traditionalists are laser focussed on what we want. That is simply to hold to the clear teaching of Scripture in our churches. However, you speak of a postmodern approach to truth. Isn’t that the same approach that led to affirming theology taking hold in the church? The texts of Scripture are abandoned as being objectively true and authoritative in order to give way to personal experience. Why shouldn’t this be employed by those who want to adopt a postmodern view of gender? I think you’re onto something but your argument lacks… Read more »
The “clear teaching of Scripture” simply IS the “personal experience” (experience of interpretation) of one group of people (who then label that interpretation as “objectively true”, not to mention “orthdox” and “Traditionalist”).
My belief-system comes from Anglican traditions. I believe it to be True and, therefore, “right belief” (orthodox). Nevertheless, I am still willing to be Church with the former group. Is that invitation reciprocated? I live in hope…
“Postmodernism questions the existence of universal truths and objective reality, emphasizing the subjective and contextual nature of knowledge.” You’ve just done this as you’ve rejected the idea that God can reveal Himself objectively and authoritatively in Scripture. No, words have meanings and they can’t be made to mean whatever we want them to mean. The Scriptures are clear on marriage, sexual ethics and gender at least from a New Testament perspective. Jane is right to question moving away from objective reality to subjective experience on every topic but isn’t being consistent. She wants to insist on this for gender identity… Read more »
“words have meanings and they can’t be made to mean whatever we want them to mean”. So, what does the word “marriage” mean? In your answer consider what the word translated as marriage might have meant at the time of Abraham, at the time of David, at the time of Jesus, and at, say 1850 and 1950.
I think we have to be practical and establish how our goals are to be obtained in the world of real flesh and blood situations, rather than philosophical debate. This morning’s council election results suggest that a great many people are opting for the former, whether or not we like the outcome (and I personally don’t like Reform or Trump, but have to live with them). My suspicion is that the recent Supreme Court decision, which has already scared a good many government institutions and is having very swift results in the sporting world, may in fact be a turning… Read more »
With the greatest respect you are overlooking the role of the media in this, including social media. Why do you think Musk bought Twitter?
In this country pretty much all of the print media is right wing. The Guardian vacillates but is no longer reliably left wing. My left-leaning friends no longer trust the BBC. Just look how much more airtime and press coverage Reform have had compared to the Greens.
Yes, the country has concerns about immigration but it’s being amplified by the media.
The Roman Church definitely does it better. We prefer super-complex committee structures. Unfortunately, this means that the process looks like it is trying to triangulate multiple hidden agendas. Can it be that this is exactly what it is doing? Do we in the Church imagine that nobody notices what is obvious?
Added to that the diocese had made an utter fool of everyone involved in the election. Would it not be better if the King did a bit of supreme governing? I wish he would.
Colin – Thank you for remembering MRI. I just want to clarify the origin of the Kuala Lumpur statement. You say; ‘The Kuala Lumpur Conference of 1997 that resourced conservative dominance at Lambeth 1998’. This was the second South/South conference and during that conference the Kuala Lumpur Statement was never considered or discussed. I have looked through all the conference notes. It was read out on the last day and its origins are not clear, but it seems to have been written by people living in the West. It was manipulated to appear as if it was the product of… Read more »
Phil – thanks so much for adding more accurate information about the Kuala Lumpur conference and statement. Some years ago I read through the information about the conference available online, but I don’t have your much more personal experience of the Anglican Communion, it’s history and multiple identities. I was eighteen when the idea of MRI was coined at Toronto Conference, the same year that Honest to God was published. I vividly remember being strongly attracted to the phrase. I was probably the only person in the congregation at St Barnabas Southfields who was. I certainly wasn’t aware that twenty-four… Read more »
The initiative for the South/South meetings was a response to MRI. The processes meant to bring it about failed and the powerful ‘donor’ provinces and their mission agencies and boards still dominated. If you read the speech by Bp Simon Chiwanga that launched the South South initiative (I think it was at the precursor conference) you will see he bases his call for the South South encounters on the ‘Anglican Turning Point’ of 63 and MRI. However, conservative leaders from the North realised that they had lost the argument over women in leadership and sought allies to stop LGBTIQ+ inclusion.… Read more »
if only we can get past conservatives, things would be so much better. Dream on! Churches in the global south are perfectly capable of acting and thinking for themselves whatever western bishops or archbishops may do or think. This is what MRI is about and the views of the global south churches should be better represented in Anglican communion rather than dismissed. There is of course an argument under MRI for the Church of England to become just that, rather than a global communion, and maybe this will happen sooner rather than later.
Sorry Adrian – My mother was in hospital so I missed this reply. The point is that the Churches of the Global south should have a voice. They are diverse and not ‘conservative’ – they often have radical agendas in indigenising worship and challenging misogyny. The Anglican churches of the Global South now largely ignore the Fellowship of Global South Anglicans and the dynamism is in the Council of Anglican Provinces in Africa and the Council of Churches in East Asia (which is an entirely Anglican organisation). These focus on issues in Africa and Asia – not on what is… Read more »
Can you explain what MRI means in this context? I only know it as Magnetic Resonance Imaging.
I have been running a campaign to eliminate TLA’s from all discourse for the last 40 years. I have failed!
Is that what the hospital does in an MRI scan, Janet? It sounds like it might be and, like you, is the only use I know of that acronym. (I had one recently, concerning a brain hemorrhage, which is how I know!)
I’ve had several, after two different pulmonary embolisms, and it was excellent at finding all the blood clots scattered around my lungs!
On blood thinners for life now, no problem. But a bit scary when it happened. Funny story – first time in St Thomas, one of the nurses/assistants was my son’s girlfriend. Luckily she did not have to do an examination of me. Happily married now and expecting in a month or two.
I hope you’re OK, John?
It’s actually spelled out in the original article. I had to refer back.
Mutual Responsibility and Interdependence.
MR comes from Max Warren’s work in the 1950s on Partnership and his axiom – Only the whole world knows the whole truth.
Interdependence was a word coined by Harold Macmillan in his ‘Wind of Change’ speech and picked up on by Bp Stephen Bayne.
It led to the declaration by Michael Ramsey that no church should ever refer to itself as ‘mother’ and that the language of inferiority and superiority.
… what an interesting piece of research … the Kuala Lumpur Statement was finessed it seems .. but so much about Anglicanism seems to have been finessed by one lot or another. Madeup on the run, just as Andrew describes in the process of nominating to the See of Canterbury. So we get this communiqué pretending the last communiqué was the voice of the Church and quasi-law. It was painful to watch. No mention of Sydney? A couple of encounters with their top lawyer at Ecclesiastical law conferences and other forums led many to think their money and influence was… Read more »
Martin, Sydney funded much of the later progress of ‘The Global South’ – questions were asked in Diocesan Synod there in the 2010s as to how appropriate that was.
I assumed you knew. No one actually made the claim that the Statement was a product of the second South South encounter, just that it was read out there.
I am puzzled by Colin’s list of organizations. They don’t all seem to me to be working within Anglicanism (or even within the C of E), even if they do contain progressive travellers who would have sympathies with those with similar views within Anglicanism. I am interested in the comments further up the thread about whether the gay rights movement has run out of steam. It seems to me that it is a very long time since there has been any progress at all in the Church of England. That inertia has been firmly secured by the LLF processes and… Read more »
… was designed to do …. quite true.
As someone who was involved at different levels in the LLF process I simply do not recognise this claim. It is certainly true some had a vested interested in blocking it by any means, but that was not the founding intention or the hope of the many who worked very hard and often at such cost to facilitate this remarkable, and actually quite unique, churchwide, theological consultation.
Considering the theological work has yet to be completed it can hardly be considered to be a theological consultation, maybe this is what makes it remarkable. More smoke and mirrors which will not end well for LLF.
What a strange comment. This has been a discernment process involving the most extensive theological and pastoral consultation the CofE has ever conducted. It has been a radically new discernment process for seeking the mind of the church, particularly over conflicted issues. It is not surprising therefore if we are now struggling over how to take this forward. It is challenging our more familiar, established ways of doing business. The consultation continues. Importantly this has not been directive ‘front stage’ leading, ‘telling’ people what the truth is – though conservatives have been guilty of precisely this approach. Rather this has required… Read more »
Touche’, Kelvin.
I think this is relevant to the talk about campaigning
https://bsky.app/profile/crobertcargill.bsky.social/post/3lo2dgbhrl22a
“A reminder that every small bit of good you do – whether it be putting art into the world, helping a friend or stranger, donating to a good cause, or just listening to someone who needs to vent – offsets all the evil in the world just a little bit. And sometimes that’s just what the world needs.”
It so aligns with my thinking.
I’m afraid where all this numinous interconnected introspection (if that isn’t a contradiction in terms) is going is far too much navel gazing for this bear of little brain. So I’ll leave it to those to whom it speaks, and just keep on doing what I’ve always tried to do. Though I’m not a medic the fundamental principle in which the Hippocratic Oath is grounded expresses my aim well, despite it not actually being contained therein: ‘first do no harm.’
I found Colin Coward’s piece interesting and informative (I am a member of two of those groups and also belong to a centering prayer group – perhaps Contemplative Outreach could be added to the list). I had to google “MRI” and was glad to find I wasn’t the only person to think it was that clanking thing they put you in in hospital. . The search for what Colin calls a “new kind of God” does not, for me, fit well with the goal of “a church” where everyone shares a common vision and passion. The former is surely about untrammelled… Read more »
For those saying that RC Church do it so much better with their swifter papal election system, worth noting that social media is showing quite a lot of mud-slinging as regards some potential leading candidates. I have blocked when it appears on my feed, because it is not my thing, but I am sure that there will be a lot more if you wish.
Just looking at some of the Conservative RC websites this week bears out what you say. Rorate Caeli is one of the less intemperate, but even there…
I think the divisions within the RC Church are harsher than those within Anglicanism, in fact. They have just been kept from coming out so much into the open by the very top-down system of governance.
A word to Colin C:
I don’t believe the phrase “yellow people” is properly used anymore. It’s really not descriptive, and has too much racist residue of “Yellow Peril” (used re Asian peoples). If you mean Asian, use “Asian”. Otherwise “People of Color” (and/or the color “Brown”) are suitable umbrella terms.
J C Fisher, thank you. I’ve edited the blog.
Mark, sorry I am working in France just now and can’t keep track of your comments. You seem to think growth someplace and non-growth somewhere else is a zero-sum analysis. I don’t. The Church of England isn’t comparable to the RCC (which in England itself–perhaps a better standard of measurement–the RCC now has more in attendance on Sunday). The distance to the ground for the CofE is much shorter. Malheureusement. I am glad that HTB and other select churches exhibit robust attendance and faith, just as I rejoice for signs of the same in France. Chemin Neuf stirs my heart.… Read more »