Helen King sharedconversations The Third Province: Welcome to Mercia
Nick Tall ViaMedia.News The Archbishop and the Ballot Box: Why 2026 Will Be a Critical Year for the Church of England
Anonymous Surviving Church What about the Women? A Story of Spiritual Abuse of a female victim in the Conservative Evangelical constituency.
These are all sobering articles, confirming the disintegration of the CofE. Happy New Year…keep hope alive.
Indeed, the state of entropy is writ large. It’s almost as though it’s engaged in an ouroboros process.
Mercia is perhaps a very apt choice of name for the hapless idea of a third province. The former kingdom is chiefly revered these days for the massively expensive and time consuming feat of constructing a huge defensive barrier to protect itself (and let’s refrain from making jokes about the unfortunate double entendre of the name of this edifice!) The kingdom collapsed because, (among other things) of internal strife, disunity and disagreement. To those familiar with Shia Islam, Mercia sounds uncannily like the Urdu/Persian/Arabic ‘Marsiya’ – a poem of lamentation for the dead…Happy New Year everyone.
Nic Tall writes: ‘The new Archbishop will go through a confirmatory election on 28th January, the only church election this year whose outcome is guaranteed.’ Has the complaint against the new Archbishop been dismissed?
If the Ely and Durham CNCs have led to appointments, then the outcome of the ‘elections’ of their new diocesans are in fact guaranteed (though secret). Unless (as in the case of Canterbury also), the possibility exists of a candidate withdrawing, and the election not taking place at all.
My understanding from those in the dioceses concerned is that nominations have been made to both Ely and Durham. Had they not been, the CNC would have needed to have made an announcement to that effect. There remains an issue, in my opinion, as to how the CNC satisfies itself not only on the safeguarding capabilities of candidates for episcopal office, but also their record of dealing with safeguarding issues. It interviews candidates and subjects them to a sight-unseen case study, but also relies on the National Safeguarding Team to provide advice and also conduct its own interview based on… Read more »
‘All this points to, and strongly reinforces, the need for complete independence of all safeguarding in the Church of England.’
All safeguarding? Parish level work too?
Parish churches and cathedrals would remain responsible for delivering operational safeguarding, including training, subject to the independent oversight and management of a external body, which would have particular responsibility for handling disclosures and complaints, together with the appropriate public authorities. Their chapters and PCCs would obviously continue to be responsible for ensuring the trustees were discharging their safeguarding obligations under charity law.
Yes. Safeguarding is an issue for humanity and not just the ivory towers of the Church. I’m currently aware of at least two ongoing safeguarding cases which, had they been referred to an ‘outside’ agency, would have resulted in a swift resolution. Meanwhile the cases lumber on for what seems an inordinate amount of time at great personal cost to the victims, the families, congregations and indeed the ‘perpetrators’ if that’s what they are deemed to be. As countless posts on TA have shown, we have clearly failed to address the whole area to the huge detriment to the church… Read more »
Sadly, even if it hasn’t, the outcome is guaranteed. Of this I am sure. In writing this, I make no comment on the suitability of Bishop Mullally to hold Archiepiscopal office. I merely reflect on the disgraceful inequality in the administration of discipline across the threefold ordering of ordained people in the denomination.
I made a complaint about a diocesan bishop under the CDM after a couple of months I asked for a progress report from Lambeth Palace – they claimed not to have received my documents. I politely pointed out that they’d signed for them. What seemed odd at the time doesn’t seem so odd now!
Indeed so, Father. The only thing of which I remain unsure is the degree to which incompetence and intention each play their part in this ongoing fiasco.
I’m not sure whether these articles are sobering or just depressing…
The only thing which raised my spirits at all was the idea of the third province being called -drumroll- Mercia!
Go back to your Historia Ecclesiastica folks …. Remember King Penda of Mercia the unrepentant heathen murdering all those Christian rulers?
The irony is wonderful , so be careful what you wish for…
I shared your delight, when I read of it. Another example of the profound ignorance of ecclesiastical history among those who claim they defend the historically authentic bene esse of the Church universal, denominational and local.
You say this because of one king of Mercia? There were many other Christian kings of Mercia. And Penda didn’t kill Christian rulers because they were Christian but because they were political rivals. That’s how kings tended to operate in those days.
I used to attend the church in Northumberland dedicated to St.Oswin, who was murdered by Oswiu, head of a rival line, later the king who firmly brought papal authority to Britain. Oswiu defeated and killed Penda, who had always had Christian allies and who believed in religious toleration – his Welsh name suggests that he came from the pagan minority among the Britons. He wasn’t such a bad guy and the Christians of those days were sometimes no better than they should have been
Maybe this is a matter of chronology, but I thought St Augustine of Canterbury (consecrated 597) was the first to establish papal authority.
The former RC Archbishop of Glasgow, greeting Pope St Benedict XVI on his visit to Britain in 2010, made the surprising statement that Augustine introduced Christianity to these islands, all the more remarkable for that to be said in Scotland.
I don’t think the late pope has been canonised — not yet anyway.
Ah, a faux pas on my part. There was an interesting snippet about that visit. While here, Benedict wore the papal stole of Pope Leo XIII, seen as ironic given that pontiff’s ‘view’ of Anglican orders.
I think we can take it as a given
I am not sure how surprising that would be from his perspective. Of course he would be aware of Christianity in Britain prior to St Augustine of Canterbury. But ‘Christianity’ as indigenous expressions via monastic efforts required to be ordered within the missionary intention of the Catholic Church. As he would see it. One might ask whether Christianity in Britain prior to that felt aggrieved or displaced because of that missionary effort associated with St Augustine of Canterbury. And what would subsequently be said by the present Catholic Church about it. Modern Anglicans in the CofE might object. Would the… Read more »
Surprising from our (my) perspective for the very reasons you mention.
Perhaps you could net out for me what, after Henry’s break from Rome, the appeal to indigenous Christianity in Britain thousands of years ago might mean? Are you saying that the present Church of England looks to the pre Augustine period for the Christianity that is its own species of catholicism (non “Roman” Catholic)? In what concrete manifestation in the present life of the church on the ground? And, to what degree would such an appeal represent the present population of the Church of England (which is 6% of the English population in church on Sundays)? I apologise but it… Read more »
Some personal background: I live in the country village parish which John Keble served as Vicar (while Newman and Pusey went on to greater things). When I first came here, Keble was still remembered and spoken of more than a century after his death. He believed in the ‘Real Presence’ and observed the Feast Day of King Charles the Martyr. A short distance from here in the city of Winchester there is a statue of St Amphibalus. I think he can fairly be described as a Roman Christian: another is St Alban; both lived and were martyred centuries before the… Read more »
It would not be my intention in my response to you to be taking aim at the Church of England. Apologies if you have read me that way. I think the issue is that, on the one hand Henry VIII succeeded in severing the Church of England from the Catholic Church, quite intentionally and thoroughly, including the monastic heritage; on the other hand, it appears that some pre-Augustine Christianity is to be reached back to as untouched by all that intervening history and claimed as “Church of England” identity. SOME of the reformers wanted to lay claim to the first… Read more »
“severing the Church of England from the Catholic Church”. England continued as part of the Catholic Church. What was removed was the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome and the uniformity that it imposed.
The very first Canon of the Church of England states: “The Church of England, established according to the laws of this realm under the King’s Majesty, belongs to the true and apostolic Church of Christ; and, as our duty to the said Church of England requires, we do constitute and ordain that no member thereof shall be at liberty to maintain or hold the contrary.”
Of course the Church of England claimed that.
That changes not an iota that there was a severance of the Catholic Church and the Church of England.
And that fact was driven home during the Edwardian period and the ensuing years, and at the Settlement.
No one doubts for a second that the Church of England and the Catholic Church are separate bodies — 6% attending church in the former, 7% in the latter case in England today.
Thank you for that clarification. No offence whatsoever taken.
You are most welcome. Always appreciate your judicious commentary.
What a difference a word makes. Some commenters might have used the phrase “Celtic Christianity” to signify Christian expressions local to Britain at this time, as against those expressions supported by Rome. But we have learnt that the word Celtic can lead us down some very unhelpful worm-holes. However the phrase “Indigenous Christianity” for these British examples fired off a whole new set of synapses in my brain. Can one draw parallels here between this debate about those diverse 6th/7th Century Christianities in Britain, and the recent debates on TA about indigenous against centralised expressions of Christianity in today’s post-colonial… Read more »
Sorry – editing error. Last sentence should read:
“But I wonder whether Pope Francis and Pope Leo were/are in the same camp.
Simon, I mention something about the Canadian article below but: I see current expressions of Celtic Christianity as more of a recovery and celebration of values. Instance what is outlined in John O’Donohue’s Book, Anam Cara: A Book of Celtic Wisdom (see previous chats here). I’m wondering if that kind of thing is what informs projects like the Celtic Eucharist at Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin. (link). Are there other examples of this elsewhere ‘over there’ ? https://christchurchcathedral.ie/event/celtic-eucharist/2026-02-06/ Here is The confession of Faith from reproduced from the liturgy sheet at Christ Church Cathedral. Such is obviously not a recovery… Read more »
Thanks Ruairidh.
I agree with your evaluation of what is held to be Celtic Christianity – that is why I was interested (and pleased) that Anglican Priest avoided the term and used “indigenous” instead to refer to the British experience around the time of Augustine.
I did not want to make any strong statements here, but simply note that the use of that term brings different but interesting resonances and parallels to mind.
Sure thing. I thought I would reply because you refenced me in your comment, and because I had a question; but I’ve since had a peek into the Helen King article. As far as I can tell this part of the thread is a spin off from that. King’s article raises some interesting points. I just don’t think I have the familiarity with the C of E to comment on her piece. That being the case I feel no need to further reprise comments from a previous extensive conversation about Celtic Christianity on TA (link). Several of us us would… Read more »
Interesting, isn’t it, that one of the foundational documents of the Church of England was called the ‘Act of Uniformity‘!
The West Country Anglo Saxon bishops were certainly aggrieved by it and chose not to recognise St Augustine when he refused to stand in their presence at St Augustine’s Oak located near the Severn. They were accused of being ineffective in evangelising England and Augustine bought his own evangelists with him including St Jordan who was later venerated in Bristol along with Augustine, the Abbey built in his name now forms part of Bristol Cathedral. Latin was re-introduced as the language of the church which marginalised the poor. But in the Anglo Saxon Wycche tribe (Worcestershire, Gloucestershire and Bristol) Anglo… Read more »
Wasn’t it British bishops who met Augustine, not Anglo-Saxon ones?
My question is sociology of knowledge oriented. Would you be proposing, e.g., retrieval of some of this as relevant to ordering the present Church of England in the midst of its meltdown? (“Effective history” is part and parcel of history itself, whatever we mean more precisely by that). There ways to speak more and less accurately about what unfolded in times past. The question effective history asks is the degree to which the past is effecting what is happening now, or whether it has become “detached” because of intervening events with more ongoing effective force (16the century break with Rome,… Read more »
In reality St Augustine’s influence did not extend far beyond Kingdom of Kent. One must also beware of accepting too much of what Bede writes at face value, he very much had a papal agenda. It is worth reading modern secular historians of the era, who cover much ground ignored by those of an ecclesiastical persuasion, and thus make it easier to understand why & how matters developed as they did.
OK, so what does mean concretely in the present life of the Church of England, with 6% of the English population attending church. A lapel pin? An historical circle of interested worshippers reading ‘Celtic’ verse and prayer? Antiquarian appreciation club. There is a sociology of knowledge issue here, that is, noting a fact of antiquity and then seeking to insert it into a role of significance for which it is not suited. An out-sizing.
So sadly nothing really changes at that rate does it? Only maybe coercion and spiritual abuse are the current methods of choice rather than fighting wars and murder? Though much of the fighting was to seize territory at that stage I think rather than over religious differences. Back to the subject of Oswiu firmly bringing papal authority to Britain you are presumably referring to the Synod of Whitby which Hild Abbess of Whitby convened to settle the date of Easter because Oswiu’s Kentish wife and he were celebrating Easter on different days? The argument was won by Wilfrid ( who… Read more »
The tolerance bit is in Bede Book 3, para.21. Penda’s etymology is disputed but the weight of opinion seems to be that the name, no one else of that name being known, is Welsh = ‘Good Head’, I suppose.
Perhaps we agree that the Christians of the time were not necessarily all that exemplary
From where have you got Wilfrid as “murderous”?
Curious that, amidst all the references to Penda, there has been no mention of David Rudkin’s famous Play for Today, ‘Penda’s Fen’ from 1973 (i.e., Pinvin, in Pershore hundred: see p. 223 of Sir Allen Mawer’s ‘Place Names of Worcestershire’ (1927), v. 27 of the EPNS series).
https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2020/september/on-penda-s-fen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76mz0ncWOVA&t=12s
Pinvin, which has changed significantly in the last few years, does not really feature in the film, and the church used is that of St Mary’s Forthampton, in Gloucestershire, the other side of Tewkesbury.
The anonymous article about spiritual coercion and abuse within the conservative evangelical context took me back to my time in a university Christian Union sixty years ago. At first, the CU seemed a place of warmth and shared belief, but eventually – after a couple of years, one of which I spent as a rep in our hall of residence – it felt narrow and intolerant, focused on a ‘to be signed for’ sort of orthodoxy professing one view of the meaning of the Atonement. Also, increasingly, the tendency of CU speakers to promote the notion of verbal inerrancy seemed… Read more »
As a man, at around the same time as this lady was going through CECU, I encountered exactly the same pressures, dogmas and emotional manipulation. Unfortunately subsequent encounters with the wider evangelical world made it only too clear that this was indeed the way, the truth, and my emotional and other desires simply didn’t enter into it. It would take too long to explain all the frustrations, disappointments and heartbreak which my personal Christian experience of this ‘wonderful feeling’ or ‘beautiful gift’ to borrow the titles of a couple of past books has caused me – usually by people whose… Read more »
My interaction with OICCU back in early 1970s was brief & far from positive. Couple of very well dressed & arrogant young men turned up at my door in college & tried to talk their way in without any invitation from me. Politeness had no impact on their zeal. Fortunately as a serving officer I was in possession of a colourful nautical vocabulary with which to send them reeling away, never to return.
I was at Durham at a similar time and we used to change the ‘u’ to an ‘I’ to annoy them ….
Spiritual abuse using coercion and control in conservative evangelical churches is a big problem for women and men – yet few in leadership seem to even recognise it as an issue, let alone do anything about it. Our Church will mot be safe while we refuse to acknowledge and challenge spriritual abuse.
Fascinating to learn the province was called Mercia. I had always (in my head) referred to it as the Province of Lichfield, like the Provinces of Canterbury and of York. Every day’s a school day! ‘dolig llawen