Ian Gomersall A Retired Rector’s Reflections A curious event at an ordination
Nick Spencer, George Lapshynov and Hannah Rich Theos Should Chris Coghlan be denied the Eucharist?
In this week’s issue of The Critical Friend Tim Wyatt writes about the resignation/retirement of the Archbishop of Wales in The rot goes deep, and about The Leicester Stalker. For those who have not been following the Leicester case, the BBC investigation is here, and subsequent statements from the Diocese of Leicester are here. House of Survivors have also issued a statement.
Alexandra Zhirnova reads the Nicene Creed in Old English; the Church of England has a press release.
Manchester Diocese ordination. Is this the Church of Christ, or is it more in the tradition of the purity cults of Jesus’ day, with their dread of touching dead bodies and hangups around menstruating women? Will the Bishop of Manchester be censured?
It’s always been a mystery to me as when bishops throw their weight around and when they cave in. Why didn’t Bishop Walker invite the candidate to go away and pray about it and possibly come back in 2026?
Probably because the candidate is going to a wealthy conservative evangelical parish. If he were going to a more humble set up he’d have probably suggested he go away. Money speaks to power.
As power drains away from the bishops, congregations call the shots (not the alcoholic kind!).
Unless the shots are in Bangor – but seriously, I’ve always regarded + David as one of the more sensible bishops in the C of E. He should not allow himself to be bullied by a wealthy Con Evo parish. If it mattered so much to the ordinand and his parish, why did they not ask for + Rob Ebbsfleet?
From the reporting of the sad case of the harassment of an ordinand by a licensed minister by the bishop, does it not bring into question the standard and extent of the due diligence exercised before such a license is awarded. Unless I mistake the BBC’s coverage, it would seem Ms Pinto had not been long in attendance at the cathedral thus said license was perhaps been issued without due care
As a former union rep much of my case load was with clergy who had fallen foul with social media in one way or another. What I can’t understand is why Bishop Snow did not look at Mr Hulme’s phone with all of Ms Pinto’s vituperative postings on it? It struck me that much archidiaconal time was spent scrolling through the clergy’s prodigious online activity, what was the reticence here? Mr Hulme’s card will already have been marked for embarrassing the Ordinary and he would be well advised to consider whether ordination is the right patch for him now.
Jay Hulme is a superb poet, speaker and theologian. It is a pity that aspect of his gifts has not been mentioned in this debate.
Some of his poetry is available on line, as well as essays and sermons.
Can I recommend the keynote speech be gave to the transgender theology conference 2024, titled “the Genderwierd Vibe of God”, in which he discusses evidence of the church accepting gender variant or “hermaphridite” people many hundreds of years ago.
But would that not mean a termination of his hope/vocation to the priesthood?
I know diocesans have attempted to remove troublesome ordinands from their patronage but…
In what way did Mr Hulme embarrass the bishop? And why do we select bishops who are so small that they would deny a gifted candidate ordination, simply because of their (the bishop’s) personal embarrassment?
Manchester ordination. If this was thought a good thing to do why did Bishop Walker not explain, and why was it not mentioned on the day? Bishop Walker’s covert actions set a new precedent for the Church of England. Those who oppose women as priests can have their own synodically agreed bishops. But now it seems Walker is going further in allowing ordinands opposed to same gender blessings to nominate their own bishop to ordain them even when others in the service are being ordained by the diocesan. Presumably then he must allow ordinands with a more generous outlook to… Read more »
I don’t know if it’s usual for one bishop to ordain while another presided over the eucharist, but it seems very sensible to me, for all sorts of reasons.
Not this year. I gather all the deacons who are not serving in churches under alternative episcopal oversight were made by the Bishop of Bolton, and no choice was offered.
We don’t offer alternative episcopal oversight in the Church of England – we use the term extended episcopal oversight. We thought about this long and hard and the seemingly picky distinction is theologically very important.
You say potato, and I say… etc etc etc
Can we call the whole thing off??!
Realist, you seemed above to making a distinction between ‘ordaining’ and ‘making’ deacons. Why criticise Charles for making an equally important – and more accurate – distinction?
I’m not criticising Charles at all, Janet, far from it.
OK here is a picky response from a theology teacher who sat through endless GS debaters and votes on this. We used the term extended oversight because the diocesan Bishop remains your Bishop (as do the suffragans in the diocese) and you cannot avoid this fact. You may disagree with your Bishop over all sorts of things and even regard them as having compromised some aspect of the Christian faith but they remain your Bishop. The actual episcopal oversight you receive may be delivered via another Bishop such as a PEV but this is on behalf of the diocesan Bishop… Read more »
Thank you for this (much needed!) clarification. All I would add is that a suffragan is only ‘your Bishop’ in that the exercise of his or her episcopacy is always on behalf of the diocesan.
Thanks Charles, I understand the distinction (I’m an ecclesiologist by academic discipline) – which you express with commendable succinctness, by the way – but having been quite careful about such things in the past, I am now less so when commenting on what I see happening. This is because in so much that I see going on, rightly or wrongly, I see a real disconnect between what we say we allow and what we end up permitting, often by default, or as in this case, quite possibly fear of the reaction of the powerful to saying no. As others have… Read more »
Fair point.
I can see the distinction, but to the average person in the pew…..
So Charles how does all this tie in with the Bishop of Oswestry who seems to be making quite a lot of “The See of Oswestry” on his website? Is he pushing his luck?
The See of Oswestry really is a fascinating entity. It was set up to provide oversight to those who are unable to accept the sacramental ministry of women, and yet, according to its website, includes churches where the Sunday mass is regularly celebrated by women priests.
I think the language ‘unable to accept the sacramental ministry of…’ is part of the problem. It has opened the door to people refusing the sacramental ministry, or the episcopal oversight, of priests and bishops for any shibboleth of their own. ‘Won’t accept’ is more honest.
I’ve always thought ‘the see of’ was a bit odd when it is a suffragen bishop.
Well a suffragan has a see too, even if it is only a titular see.
The Act of 1534 uses the term ‘sees of bishops suffragan’.
The ordinations ignored the principles of liturgical presidency and the bishops prayed the ordination prayer with their hats on. But these peccadilloes are nothing to the precedent set by +David. Where will it end?
I hope that at the least the ABY may have a quiet word to the effect it shouldn’t happen again. But perhaps I am being over optimistic in today’s C of E.
On the OE Nicene Creed, some years ago we had a service here for the return of the remains of about 3,000 former parishioners who had been exhumed as part of an archæological investigation. Since the remains spanned the period from Cnut to Victoria, the liturgy included the Lord’s Prayer in OE, Latin and Cranmerian.
News of it reached the Today programme, and as part of the broadcast, it was requested that the OE text be recited. Cue for ‘Fæþer ure,þu þe eart on heafonum….’
‘Thank you,’ responded the interviewer, brightly. ‘And what does that mean?’
Sigh…..
To be fair, I suspect most citizens of western nations would struggle to explain what “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name” actually means – and might baulk when they apprehend the revolutionary implications of the rest of the prayer. Praise be!
(Necessary light relief at a bewildering and troubling development.) Is deacon Alexi serving his/her title in Sale? It would be so entertaining if that were the case….
Apologies.
D
A troubling development? I thought you were referring to this report from Bangor Cathedral and how its bishop is doing:
Bangor Cathedral had ‘binge drinking culture’ at diocese – BBC News
Sale is in Chester Diocese.
The way things are going, Manchester Diocese will be up for sale.
No fear! That is Chester diocese and no traffic is allowed over the Mersey. (I served on the Manchester side as a curate). Alexi is at a Holy Trinity (Platt) church plant. I was a Reader at Platt and went from there to ordination training – it has not always been so separatist in its evangelicalism and while i was there the wonderful Hugh Silvester was rector, who went to great lengths to see were were fully part of the diocese and clearly Anglican.
I recall that way back in the 70s the move of a particular clergyman from the Manchester diocese to the Chester diocese was referred to in the Manchester diocesan leaflet Crux as a ‘border raid’. I don’t know whether those were the words of Bishop Patrick Rodger or of the editor of Crux.
Ah yes – happy days of inter-diocesan cooperation! I served on the editorial team of Crux. I don’t think we used such language in my time (1990s). But the bishop of Chester (Michael Baughen then – a former Manchester incumbent, of Holy Trinity Platt in fact) would not allow clergy from Bowden deanery (Chester diocese) to cross into Manchester to be part time hospital chaplains at the local hospital where their parishoners routinely went. By the way a further bit of trivia vaguely relevant to this thread is that the one time I went to a Reform meeting (early on… Read more »
Thanks for this trivia, Charles. It’s part of a pattern of raising issues to differentiate ‘our’ group from ‘them’ and maintain purity. Even if the PLF issue is somehow (miraculously?) resolved there will be another one in 10 or 20 years time. (Any guesses what it will be?) When they’re raised they’re always presented as absolutely vital and non-negotiable, and then frequently later on mysteriously fade away. I wonder if it’s more to do with a mindset or personality disposition rather than the presenting issues or even theological method.
I’m sure that it is. Some people, sadly have a deep-seated need to condemn others in order to justify themselves. And this involves differentiating themselves from others in what can appear to be an almost random way. It’s what used to be called a shibboleth.
I was thinking more of the way an issue is raised around which a group can coalesce and set itself apart from others, and then further down the track a different issue arises and the process repeats. It seems to be a particularly Protestant trait; nothing similar happens so frequently within the post-Reformation Roman Catholic Church at least in public, although the behind the scenes divisions are just as great. Part of the reason must be the supreme authority that the Bible has for Protestants and the impossibility of coming to a unanimous and unchanging reading of it on all… Read more »
You are right, of course. I was speaking of the, often hidden, psychological motivation behind the process you describe.
Interesting that you were on the editorial team of Crux. I think it came into being early in Patrick Rodger’s time, and replaced the diocesan leaflet. In the issue of the leaflet immediately after the announcement of Patrick Rodger’s appointment (but before his consecration) he contributed a letter to the leaflet in which he mentioned that a Scotsman had been appointed to succeed an Irishman as Bishop of Manchester. The Irishman was of course William Greer. He was in the post from 1947 to 1970, and the writer of his ODNB entry expresses the view that that was too long.… Read more »
From what my sources in Manchester tell me, Platt has carried on trying to be as connected to the wider Diocese as it could until the most recent change of Incumbent. Whether the timing is coincidental and changes in wider circumstances are the real reason behind the shift, I don’t know.
I have relatives in the congregation there still. When in Manchester I worship at St James and Emmanuel Didsbury. Draw your own conclusions! (Though Didsbury once declined to have me as their curate…). I do know that not all the congregation at Platt agree with their clergy’s line on same sex partnerships. (Quelle surprise, as they say in Chester diocese)
I was curious about Platt because I think I may have worshipped there once or twice in the 1970’s.
On the web site it states: The Bible is God’s written word. It is all we need in order to know what to believe and do…..We seek to engage our minds with the Bible, wanting everyone to be convinced for themselves of the truth of what it says.
Is this going beyond ‘Biblical’ or ‘Bible-based’?
“ From what my sources in Manchester tell me, Platt has carried on trying to be as connected to the wider Diocese as it could until the most recent change of Incumbent.”
And yet the diocese relatively recently made the present Incumbent an Honorary Canon of Manchester Cathedral, an honour which is normally given in recognition of service to the wider Diocese. https://www.manchester.anglican.org/installation-of-canons-at-manchester-cathedral.php
If the Bishop of Manchester didn’t advocate for ‘same sex marriage’ in opposition to the doctrine of the Church of England, there probably wouldn’t be a problem. A bishop has to promise to drive away all erroneous doctrine. This Bishop is obviously failing.
But so is Manchester Diocese where church attendance is absolutely tiny. Let us be glad for this faithful new curate.
James, I’m just curious – in the days before the ordination of women, when some of the bishops were advocating for this change ‘in opposition to the doctrine of the Church of England’, were they also in your view failing in their duty? Should no bishop ever advocate for a change if he or she feels the current doctrine is in error? By the way, that would also mean that Thomas Cranmer, Nicholas Ridley, Hugh Latimer and the rest were failing in their duty when they advocated for a change in the doctrine of the English church at the time… Read more »
Tim, As I understand the Reformation (and what the Church of England says about itself in the BCP and Articles), Cranmer, Ridley and Latimer – and Jewel in his ‘Apology for the Church of England’ – were not “advocating for a change in the doctrine of the English church” but a *restoration to the doctrine of the primitive church after the abuses of the Middle Ages. You might think them deceived on that point, but that is what they claimed to be doing. The Church’s teaching on marriage has always been clear: it is between one man and one woman… Read more »
Though I think Tim C’s point was more that even though the teaching of the Church of England until 1992 was that only men could be ordained bishop, priest or deacon, but some including bishops challenged that in public. It was then changed. That decision was undoubtedly influenced by changes in wider culture in the UK in C20th, so allowing culture to influence doctrine can be OK, as was the case for St Paul. One question is why questioning our doctrine about marriage raises such enormous levels of hostility, emotion and sometimes unpleasantness. Which is no argument from me in… Read more »
Tim says: ‘One question is why questioning our doctrine about marriage raises such enormous levels of hostility, emotion and sometimes unpleasantness. Which is no argument from me in favour of it, but only to pose the question about our reactions.’ Your mistake is to focus on negative emotional reactions, which implies that those who reject the ‘questioning’ have something wrong and irrational about them. Would you ever say to someone, ‘Why are you so hostile and negative about people sleeping around or using prostitutes?’ Of course not, you would focus on whether the action itself is right or wrong, godly… Read more »
Thanks, James. I realise the positive way this view is expressed by many, including in your comments here. But I would still point out that very harsh, negative and frankly insulting comments are still made by many about their brothers and sisters in Christ, in this country and in other parts of the Anglican Communion. Any suggestion that there may (just may) be another possibly valid point of view or another way of reading Scripture is dismissed as though the writer is not very clever and can’t join the dots, is deliberately disobeying God or is simply in thrall to… Read more »
The argument that change should not be resisted following the introduction of women priests in 1992 can potentially be deployed for any change being considered – including any number that definitely should be resisted. Greater clarity at a senior level is really required. Women’s ordination continues to present issues over 30 years on because elements of the changes involved were not fully resolved at the time. What does ‘mutual flourishing’ mean? What does priesthood mean within the CofE? Etc. So with the prayers of love and faith. Where are they going? If it is to equal marriage, then why is… Read more »
Biology and sociology both say that being gay is naturally occurring and harmless. Using Christ’s teaching on divorce to make opposite sex couples normative, rather than illustrative, does violence to the form and context of that teaching. Besides which, even if you make the assumptions you assert about what God “intended”, why should God not delight also in the unintended, arising from love in his creation? I don’t know whether others are familiar with Terry Pratchett’s ‘Thud’, but I find the two versions within it of “The things that Tak wrote” a fascinating illustration of exclusive and inclusive approaches to… Read more »
Reading about candidates for ordination choosing their Bishop, the words of Yeats sprang to mind (as they do rather frequently these days, must be my age)
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Re ‘The Leicester Stalker’, Vanessa Pinto’s Election Address in the autumn of 2021, when she stood for election to General Synod, included these two ‘Endorsements’: ‘Ven Dr Peter Rouch, CEO, Church Army UK & Ireland writes: “Venessa has impressed me with her commitment to the Church’s mission, and also with her ability to reflect deeply and contribute thoughtfully in discussion. Vee, listens well to others and brings perspectives that it is important for us to hear. I commend her to the people of the diocese as an excellent candidate for General Synod and look forward to her contribution if, and… Read more »
Hi David, thanks for bringing this to our attention. Kat deeply regrets writing that endorsement. The impact that Vee’s abuse had on Kat meant that she was living under severe chronic stress and anxiety. Vee’s behaviours were highly manipulative and coercive. She was skilled at making people question their own reality and believe that they really were guilty of the things she was accusing them of, and manipulating them into placating her. Kat was terrified of being yelled at by Vee or being accused of awful things, and knew that if she didn’t agree to write the statement she would… Read more »
Thanks so much for writing this Ben. Please know from this quarter at least how grateful I am that you and Kat were brave enough to call this out, at huge personal cost. Not commenting on your case specifically, but narcissism really does need to be more widely understood and watched out for in Christian ministry. Sadly until you’ve been a victim of it, it’s very difficult to comprehend that it’s one of the personality disorders that is most lastingly destructive to those who form its target. It’s very hard to call out because narcissists are so skilled at very… Read more »
Hi Anglican in Exile, thanks for your thoughtful comment and words of support – they were a real encouragement to me and Kat today.
You’re absolutely right about narcissism. It’s hard to believe that anyone could actually behave that way until you’ve experienced it for yourself. Whereas everyone can understand the idea that somebody might make up accusations against an inspiring leader, so this is often the conclusion people jump to. A few years ago we found it really helpful to listen to the podcast ‘The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill’ which explores these themes.
“UK and Ireland”? Great Britain and Ireland, fine; Uk and Republic of Ireland, no problem; British Isles, great; but please not “UK and Ireland”.
I was only quoting from Pinto’s GS election address. You need to address your criticism to her.
I don’t entirely agree. The reference to UK and Ireland is in the title bestowed (if that is the right word) by the Church Army. Pinto was accurately quoting the relevant title and you were accurately quoting her address. No criticism of either you or Pinto was intended.
“The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland ” – Article 4 of the Constitution. Older readers will recall that the UK Government used to insist on the first half of this article and ignore the second.
They did not ignore it. They rejected it.
At one time Australia had a single Ambassador to Ireland and the Holy See.
Ms Pinto’s criminal record and term of imprisonment (albeit suspended) will presumably come up in any future DBS check. Surely this will preclude her from any further ministry either formally or informally in the future. On what basis and on whose commendation is she preaching in Brazil?
“Further ministry either formally or informally in the future”……. You may wish to view the CofE, National Safeguarding Team’s policy statement on the recruitment of Ex-Offenders which many Parish Churches have adopted….. just saying…..
But why has her Probation Officer allowed her to take up a ministry in Brazil? I hope no one has been duped into thinking a female offender presents less of a risk of harm. From what is in the public domain it would seem likely that Ms Pinto has narcissistic and psychopathic disorders to her personality. If so they are notoriously very difficult to treat and the likelihood is that she will need to be closely supervised if she joins any church. Narcissists are adept at grooming others – Smyth, Pilavachi and Fletcher for example. I hope the Bishop of… Read more »
Unfortunately, the C of E has some form for encouraging into ministry unsuitable persons who had some ‘following’ – think of Sheffield bending the training rules for Chris Brain of the infamous Nine O’Clock Service (to ‘get down with youth’), and here I suspect the significant failures of oversight came from the wish to connect with black youth, largely absent from the C of E – in fact. Venessa Pinto drew special attention to her race in her candidacy for the General Synod. Was she nominated to the Crown Nominations Committee? White liberals are also terrified of bring accused of… Read more »
Yes, Ms Pinto was nominated to the CNC see the link below from the IC website. I note too she identified as both black and LGBT+ which makes the narrative even more complex, and the declined romantic advance bizarre to say the least. Bi? Eggshells a plenty! In the circumstances I have sympathy here for the bishop. Older straight, white, male prelate persecutes….. A timely reminder too that all shades of churchmanship can be taken in by those who have an abusive and manipulative approach to relationships.
https://www.inclusive-church.org/civicrm?civiwp=CiviCRM&q=civicrm%2Fmailing%2Fview&reset=1&id=114
Leicester Diocese really is an enigma. For £40k-£42k you could be the Archdeacons’ Parish Engagement Enabler. This appears on the Pathways website but not the Diocese’s website. https://www.cofepathways.org/members/modules/job/detail.php?record=8902. Either the Archdeacons don’t want to have conversations about Minster Communities or the Minster Communities don’t want to talk to the Archdeacons. I’ve yet to find anyone who wants to talk about Minster Communities.
Re: The press release on the Nicene Creed. Here is a press release from the Canadian church about something more urgent and socially relevant. Listen up? Indeed! https://anglicanjournal.com/general-synod-calls-for-arms-embargo-on-israel-expresses-support-for-people-in-holy-land/ “Resolution C012 requested Archbishop Shane Parker, installed as primate of the Anglican Church of Canada later that day, to publicly write to Prime Minister Mark Carney and Minister of Foreign Affairs Anita Anand calling on the Canadian government to “uphold their moral responsibilities” and impose a full, immediate arms embargo on Israel. It also encouraged all Canadian Anglicans to regularly write to and/or call their elected representatives asking them to work towards such… Read more »
You will be wasting your time here in raising this point. On the few occasions this subject has come up since 2023, the responses of a number of BTL comments have been surprisingly ‘revealing’, if only as evidence of where Anglicanism (and, specifically, the Church of England) stands these days. However – and I will be frank – I would have thought that Anglican churches in countries with a long history of settler colonialism (and all which that implies) would have had a great deal more to say about this issue over the last couple of years than has been… Read more »
“You will be wasting your time here in raising this point.” Someday I will die. When I do I hope to become the patron saint of lost causes. The focus of my comment is the mechanism of a ‘press release’ which I associate with public relations. The whole shtick on promoting the Nicene Creed looks a lot like a campaign by a church dying on the vine and racked with polarisation to say, hey here is a feel good we issue we can all get behind. Baloney! The crucified Galilean has more in common with the nearly sixty thousand dead,… Read more »
Jesus chose the way of the cross, not the sword, so absolutely nothing in common.
Is it possible to argue that those countries with a history of being on the receiving end of colonialism have been most vocal in support of the Palestinian cause – South Africa, Ireland, and now Canada among many others.
Whereas those countries with a history of being colonisers have been more supportive of Israel’s actions in Palestine and Gaza -specifically Britain and America
I am thinking of institutional response here, by the state or church, rather than individual response
Interesting that you mention Ireland. The Church of Ireland was, of course, the settler denomination par excellence, or became so, despite its repeated protestations to the contrary. I would therefore contrast the insipidity and false equivalence detailed in the statements made by archbishops McDowell and Jackson: https://anglican.ink/2025/01/17/church-of-ireland-archbishops-statement-on-gaza-peace-deal/ and https://www.churchofireland.org/news/12910/church-of-ireland-archbishops-call (the second statement being somewhat less cautious) with the more robust rhetoric of Mgr. Eamon Martin (RC archbishop of Armagh), who referred yesterday to the “brutal slaughter” which has been going on. Of course, the RCC in Ireland, for all its gross failings, was the denomination of the colonised.
I think you might find Heaney’s book of interest, if you have not already seen it.
Methodist Church in Ireland: “Conference is profoundly disturbed at the brutal ‘Swords of Iron’ military campaign by Israel that has so far resulted in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries amongst Gazan civilians; the wholesale destruction of homes and infrastructure; the killing of humanitarian workers and foreign journalists by the Israeli Army.” This forthrightness should be no surprise. Although a tiny church, Irish Methodism is still respected across the west and south of Ireland for its work to alleviate the suffering during the 1840/50s potato famines. This at a time when Anglicans across our islands often followed the Whig… Read more »
I think that is largely true. Interestingly, I had that view presented to me by some of the folks I talked with recently in Ireland. Some of the murals depict a solidarity with both Palestine and South Africa. Canada of course is a white settler state. Interestingly, during a debate at our General Synod on Palestine/Israel back in 2013 the synod was cautioned by a pro-Israel speaker not to see the world through Canada’s colonial history eyes. I disagree with that view. There is clearly an issue of colonialism and colonialism by proxy by western countries like Canada enmeshed in… Read more »
Many thanks for the reference, with which I was not familiar. All I will say (further to comments which I made on a separate thread not long ago) is that ‘virtue signalling’ is not necessarily a bad thing. What matters is helping to create a political environment in which the provision by Western governments of active or implicit assistance to illegal ‘impunity’ becomes increasingly expensive and/or problematic for those providing that assistance. It is entirely right that you mention South Africa. The position of the churches was extremely clear between the 1960s and early 1990s: that settler colonialism as exercised… Read more »
Thanks for this, informative as is customary. On the South Africa file I would like to support your point about church impact by noting the role of a former Canadian Primate, Archbishop Ted Scott. Scott served on the Commonwealth Eminent Persons Group re: South Africa. As young priest, I had a an opportunity to chat with him several times. He was as approachable as he was insightful and inspiring. I’ve attached a link to the Homily Desmond Tutu have at Ted’s memorial service. Going forward, I hope you are right about the churches not being a negligible factor, even though… Read more »
Notice the link to Anglican Communion News Service does not work. There appears to be a dropped letter in the link. Hopefully this works.
https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2004/07/archbishop-tutu-at-scott-memorial-service.aspx
Very many thanks! I hope that the ACC has learnt from the searing experiences of the financial settlement of 2005 for the residential schools and the TRC of 2015 that it cannot equivocate on this issue without further shredding its reputation. And I would remind Anglicans of Tutu’s famous remark that “if you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor”, which seems to have been the case for large sections of global Anglicanism. Of course, as might be expected of the MSM, Tutu’s views about the application of illegality and impunity in the… Read more »
“I hope that the ACC has learnt from the searing experiences of the financial settlement of 2005 for the residential schools” I very much doubt it. I think this is an issue that many parts of the the church would very much like to forget. When I discuss the colonial schools story with UK Christians they are astonished to find out that back in 2022 both Justin Welby and Pope Francis travelled to Canada to formally apologise to Canadian indigenous people for the “genocide” (to use Pope Francis’ words) carried out by their respective churches on the indigenous nations. This… Read more »
It has certainly been talked about and acted upon in the ACC i.e. Anglican Church of Canada. However, there is much more to do. The visit of Justin Welby to Canada was something of a missed opportunity, literally, in that the Canadian church missed an opportunity for Welby to meet with the late Senator Murray Sinclair, Chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The problem of colonialism/decolonization is clearly an ongoing issue for the entire Communion. (links) Welby’s visit should have been more inclusive of survivors: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trc-chair-archbishop-canterbury-apologies-1.6439575 https://anglicanjournal.com/decolonizing-hopes-emerged-at-1963-anglican-congress-but-global-north-still-dominates-communion-mri-at-60-conference-hears/ Held as a wave of decolonization swept the former British Empire, the… Read more »
Thanks, that’s helpful, although in hindsight my post was written as assuming the “ACC” meant the Anglican Consultative Council, whereas I now realise Froghole and you were referring to the Anglican Church of Canada.
I thought that may have be the case. Acronyms. ACC does double duty in Anglican short hand. lol.
Although i guess it is really abbreviation..
like gov forms stamped UNA…Use No Abbreviations. lol.
And as I said at the time, given that Justin Welby is not the leader of the Anglican Church of Canada, any quasi-governmental roles he might have been tempted to undertake during his visit would have been colonial overreach. The leader of the Anglican Church of Canada (Archbishop Michael Peers), as you know, was the first leader of a Christian denomination to apologize for its role in the residential schools, and that apology took place in the 1990s. Implying that Justin Welby’s relationship to the Anglican Church of Canada was the same as the Pope’s relationship to the Catholic Church… Read more »
Tim, I agree that the role of the ABC ( should I use an abbreviation?) is not the same as the pope. The apology from Michael Peers on behalf of The ACoC has primary gravitas for us in Canada. However the issue of residential schools is tied in with colonialism as a feature of The Communion, as noted in the article about the anniversary of the Anglican Congress. As the spiritual head of our Anglican Communion the ABC of the day has a role to play especially given the historical role of the C of E in the colonial project… Read more »
I think the ACC ( Anglican Church of Canada) has learned a great many things since the settlement and apology. The Canadian Church, at the official level anyway, is committed to de-colonization. I think one thing that has complicated responses to the Palestine/Israel crisis for the churches is the legacy of Christian antisemitism. You will notice it is clearly an issue in the piece I linked our General Synod. However, two things (1) here we can be in dialogue with Jewish voices who are making a distinction between antisemitism and criticism of the state of Israel on Gaza –recognizing the… Read more »
I am trying to understand this confusing Hulme-Pinto story. Was Jay Hulme born as a boy or a girl?
And what does it mean when a transgender person says that he or she is ‘gay’? What does that mean in terms of their sexual attractions?
Is this the best forum for such discernment?
James, You ask an interesting and valid question which many people may be wondering about. But rather than make my response about Jay Hulme and risk invading their privacy, can I give a more generalised answer based on my own understanding, and use a different case study. In terms of being “born as a boy or a girl”, then for a transgender person the answer is both. Going into specifics, a person’s “sex” refers to the physical shape of the body, defined by internal and external sexual organs, chromosomes, hormone patterns etc. A person’s “gender” is a totally different aspect… Read more »
Continued from previous post Such transgender people have found life difficult in patriarchal Christian cultures, but more recent research shows that such people have existed right across history and right across the world, and that being transgendered is a simply a normal variation in the human condition. In most non-patriarchal cultures such people were accepted and enabled to live out a valid life in this third gender status. Going onto the gay or straight question. For a transgendered person, born into a girls body but who understands themself as a trans-man, then if that person finds themself having a relationship… Read more »
Pinto wanted a “relationship” with Hulme. He didn’t reciprocate, so she hounded and harrassed him – over a very long time. The sexuality of either of them is completely and utterly irrelevant. It is inconceivable that this was not seen as a “safeguarding” issue.
Re Vanessa Pinto case: one of the most disturbing elements in all this was that she was elected to serve on CNC after such a short period on General Synod, I think less than a year. Having been one of the voters in that process I tired to leave politics aside and choose the most experienced candidates who would be most gifted to act in this role in my voting. I was very aware at the time that affiliation to a particular group seemed to play a greater part than the character, skills and gifts the candidates presented in peoples… Read more »
A newsletter issued by Inclusive Church in August 2022 is still online, in which Venessa Pinto is introduced as a trustee of that organisation. It seems all sorts of bodies were taken in by her.
To say that she let a huge number of people down (quite apart from the victims she abused) is an understatement. She was paired for election as a central member of the CNC with Christina Baron, a hugely experienced and respected CNC central member, seeking re-election under the new standing orders. It was not surprising that they were both elected as a pair. Pinto’s behaviour and conduct were shameful.
Pinto’s conviction was in May 2024. Why did the BBC suddenly make a big splash of this story in July 2025?
Hulme says Martyn Snow made an accusation of ‘witchcraft’. Snow strenuously denies this in an official statement, saying he asked Hulme about a reported mock seance in the church, which Hulme doesn’t deny.
It looks very much a hit piece on Snow by the BBC.
Why would they do this?
Because he describes himself as ‘personally orthodox’ in matters of human sexuality, and has been considered as a candidate for Canterbury? Perhaps?
Hulme has denied that a seance, mock or otherwise, took place. It’s disturbing that you continue these smears. Is it because Snow shares your views?
The other way to look at it is that Ms Pinto sensibly pleaded guilty so the gory details were not much reported. Then she said she had repented and the COf E managed to keep the damage to her victims quiet until now?
So why blame the BBC ?
Stalking is a crime which usually goes under investigated by the police anyway , and I wonder how a trans man reporting stalking by a black woman was received ??
Probably because the Board of Deputies has someone else lined up for Canterbury.
Is there another Board of Deputies more relevant to the situation, or did you just insinuate that Jews control the appointment of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
That is really a most distasteful comment… Is this what you are telling your congregation about the appointment of the next ABC?
Would you like to explain why you find it distasteful?
James – ref your
“reported mock seance in the church, which Hulme doesn’t deny.”
Hulme does deny it. See the report at the top of this page
“Hulme says this was nonsense and misunderstandings, based on some garbled report of him being seen lighting a candle in a church one evening and his personal friendship with an actual witch and tarot card reader.”
Here is a statement from the Bishop of Leicester contradicting Hulme’s claims. Make of it what you will: 29 June 2025 A statement from the Diocese of Leicester following the BBC News Online article. “Following the BBC News Online article, we wish to make it very clear that Bishop Martyn did not accuse Jay Hulme of practising “witchcraft”. Indeed, he is deeply disturbed that this accusation has been made. He did question Mr Hulme with regard to complaints that had been made against him – complaints which included (in Mr Hulme’s words in the BBC interview) reference to conducting a… Read more »
Readers might like to note that there is a link to this statement (and others from the Diocese of Leicester) in my article.
The press has also just uncovered the extensive fraud of the “Salt Path” woman. I suspected her from the start and gave up reading her rotten book when she gloated about having made an early morning escape from a small farm camp site without paying. That’s theft. And clearly wasn’t her first. It took a long time for the truth about the ghastly Post Office “Horizon” scandal to emerge, too. Rather than smearing investigative journalism as having hidden agendas, we should perhaps be grateful? Whatever it was that the Church did, or failed to do, in this case it left… Read more »
One aspect of this situation that I’d appreciate hearing people’s thoughts on is the fact that throughout the situation Leicester Diocese insisted it wasn’t a safeguarding issue, and they held the situation under HR rather than safeguarding, as there was no evidence that any children or people in the legal category of vulnerable adults were at risk. The member of the NST that Kat spoke with said that Leicester Diocese appeared to have made the correct decision in not treating it as a safeguarding matter. I have heard from various people that this is an outdated way of defining what… Read more »
I agree entirely. I have commented several times on TA that the concept of children or vulnerable adults is misconceived, we are all vulnerable, and we are certainly all vulnerable when confronted with safeguarding issues. Some here have tried to restrict vulnerable adults to particular disabilities (is that the right term?) for which I have little sympathy. Moreover, safeguarding has been considered distinct from, for example, CDM processes, which I have again argued repeatedly are not appropriate for safeguarding processes. CDM needs bringing up to date. Of course, these chasms would not exist if there was a truly independent safeguarding… Read more »
How would this sit with the Biblical vision of church life being disciplined by and within the church? Matthew 18, I Cor 6?
Really? Are you serious, or just trying to be provocative? Matthew 18 and 1 Cor 6 were talking about a very different ‘church’ to what we have today. 1 Cor specifically talks about trivial cases. There is of course the verse about ‘give to Caesar’ which is relevant when dealing with legal cases I have no particular problem with ‘Sharia’ courts dealing with trivial domestic or dispute cases. Similarly, every parish priest must have disputes amongst the congregation they have to navigate and guide. Same in any organisation whether volunteer or commercial – the manager has to deal with disputes… Read more »
Is ‘independent safeguarding’, being ‘totally outside of the influence of the church hierarchy’ therefore to be: Performed by people who have not been appointed by the church? Given terms of reference by people other than the church? Obeyed in every jot and tittle of its (fallible, human) utterances and decisions without question or appeal by the church? Unconstrained in the evolution of its guiding ideology and world-view by the Christian theology of the church? Self-replicating and self-appointing, without any input or appeal from the church? That sounds more like a Babylonian captivity of the church rather than the glorious liberty… Read more »
How does that work for you? I think you complain too much. Much of our lives are governed by ordinances outside of the church. Most Christians have secular jobs and managers, we all have to pay taxes and obey the laws, It is only those who are employed by the church (aka priests) who can take such a unique view of the Christian world. I remember discussions about annual appraisals of priests. Shock horror. Yet most of us have to undergo this in our secular jobs. But my main point is that this inward looking view (discipline-within-the-church) led to Smyth,… Read more »
Hi Ben, Firstly, thank you for the bravery of Kat and yourself in speaking out in recent days. There is much in your story that I recognise from my own experience in the Church of England, not in Leicester Diocese, and I have appreciated knowing that my experience isn’t unique. I agree with what you have written above. In my view, a big issue with the CofE is that they are very slow to update safeguarding documents – a quick look at https://www.churchofengland.org/safeguarding/policy-and-practice-guidance illustrates the slow pace of review and revision, whereas (to give one comparison) the United Reformed Church’s… Read more »
Hi James, thank you for your supportive comments, they’re a real encouragement to us. I’m so sorry to hear about your experiences in the C of E. Our impression throughout much of the past few years has been that people at every level of the C of E seem to genuinely believe it’s simply impossible to do anything about bullying if it doesn’t meet the criteria for a CDM. I have little doubt that Vee would still be in ministry now if it hadn’t been for Jay speaking up about the extreme criminal behaviours. They also seem to believe it’s… Read more »
On the situation in Gaza and ramifications in the region.
https://www.wsj.com/opinion/new-palestinian-offer-peace-israel-hebron-sheikh-emirate-36dd39c3?st=XC1JPS
I’m sure those with knowledge of the history of South Africa will spot the recurrence of Bantustans, and of the people willing to be a puppet leader on behalf of the regime.
Or, they won’t. Can you explain what is wrong with a proposal from Muslims in the area. Do you have a closer reality than they do? Kind regards.
A proposal from self-appointed community leaders and the Israeli regime to cement Israeli authority through client rulers and continue to allow land theft in return for a permanent second class status as labourers at the mercy of both the regime and their clients. There is no evidence of popular support for this proposal and the claims for how many people these “leaders” represent are utterly fanciful. Palestine is not a feudal society where everyone can be expected to follow their liege lord.
The PA is hopelessly corrupt and undemocratic, but a system of clientage is not an improvement.
I agree with the first half of your last statement and question how you claim to know more than the leadership operative in this proposal.
The reality is the ruling Zionists want to annex Gaza and the West Bank by force and won’t stop until they do so and re establish temple worship in a new temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Only Israelis can change this trajectory but don’t show any signs of doing so. Palestinians don’t have any say unless they also use force. This is how history will play out while the rest of the world stands by.
Is the leadership operative in this proposal not Palestinian? I find it odd that those who are not Palestinian tell us how they should act or decide — “they must use force” etc. You do not engage the article in question but instead move to a summary judgment from within a circle called Thinking Anglicans. I prefer to hear from those on the ground, as represented in this WSJ link.
Indeed. The WSJ oracle. You may be interested in this counter point.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hebron-residents-and-leaders-denounce-local-sheikhs-plan-declare-independence-and-recognise
“The family told Haaretz that Jaabari ‘is known for his ties to settlers and Israeli institutions, which primarily serve his personal and business interests’, and that his initiative enjoys ‘no public support’ “.
The focus of the international community including churches should be squarely on the humanitarian crisis and the excessive use of militarized violence in Gaza. I have attached a link to an interview with Palestinian Lutheran pastor The Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac. He is quite clear that the situation is not about religion, not just about Jews versus Muslims, but about colonialism. There is also an article with an embedded interview from Church Times which commentators here may recall. https://youtu.be/WO8cxDuhsQ4 https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/17-april/features/features/anger-and-anguish-in-the-holy-land-an-interview-with-munther-isaac I began this discussion by challenging the relevance of the preciousness of ‘celebrating’ Nicaea while being silent about the deaths… Read more »
From Professor Arab Studies at Bar Ilan University: “trying to sell the idea of Palestinian emirates with the West Bank’s seven culturally distinctive cities run individually by their leading clans. He says failing states in the Arab world—Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Yemen, Libya—are conglomerates of ethnic, religious and sectarian groups, with modern states imposed flimsily on top. Successes—Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Saudi Arabia and the seven emirates of the U.A.E.—are each controlled by one family. “Al-Sabah owns Kuwait. Al-Thani owns Qatar. Al-Saud owns Saudi Arabia,” he says. “Dubai has very little oil, but it’s run by one family, al-Maktoum,” so it… Read more »
Kedar is a Jewish Israeli and a supporter of Netanyahu with a long history of Islamophobia and inflammatory views. He’s not a credible commentator on Palestinians. For starters he ignores the role of Israel (and Likudniks like him in particular) in promoting Hamas with the avowed intent of weakening the PLO.
Comparing with various independent (and oppressive) Arab dictatorships is apples to oranges, for the key reason that these proposed Bantustans would not be independent, merely local governors enforcing Israeli policy and providing Israel with cheap labour.
Thank you for your strong, obviously entrenched, opinion. Peace in this region is something the world longs for. I have more trust in local Arab states than I do in Western liberalism. God bless.
Your strong, entrenched support for Israeli oppression is pretty obvious.
Western liberalism is busy supporting Israeli genocide in Palestine so I don’t much trust it either. I also don’t trust dictators to act in the interests of their own people, much less those of the Palestinians.
Ending your condescending snark with ‘God bless’ looks to me like taking the Lord’s name in vain.
“Your strong, entrenched support for Israeli oppression is pretty obvious.”
You may retract that charge in the face of its absence in anything I have written.
Strong emotions don’t get to trump rational discourse.
God bless you. And I mean it.
“Strong emotions don’t get to trump rational discourse.” Thank you Mr. Spock. Actually in well integrated human beings strong emotions and rational discourse work in tandem. A difficulty arises when pretensions to rational discourse are grounded in latent or ‘unowned’ emotions. I’d post links to research on the matter by people who know what they are talking about, but I know all I will get in return is sophist diversionary trolling. You may take my statement as a rational response grounded in appropriate emotion. My dear departed granny used to tell me repeatedly, “tell me who your friends are and… Read more »
The UN say that nearly 800 hungry Palestinians have been killed since May in attacks on aid hubs and food convoys. What can possibly justify this? Oh and what about those children earlier in the week in the queue for supplements at a hospital?
This is not a just war not the work of decent men.
The whole world should be appalled at the militarized violence and starvation as a weapon against a civilian population , and its own largely muted tepid response.
Going back to the controversial ordination in Manchester Cathedral.
I see that the Church Times does not mention the candidate not ordained by the Bishop of Manchester!
I can’t help thinking something underhand is going on at that Cathedral. The Church Times must have been given a list of names – but one ordination is missed out…
What have the Bishop / Dean to say to clarify this?
The Church Times list includes “Alexios Andriopoulos (Rusholme)”, and I think that this is the person under consideration. He is listed in Crockford’s as being a curate in the Benefice of Rusholme (Holy Trinity). The benefice includes several churches, one of which is Holy Trinity Platt.
It seems that Alexios Andriopoulos is a man of high academic attainment. Whilst at Wycliffe he was awarded the Catherine of Alexandria Prize, which is for ‘the best performance in the Honour School of Theology and Religion by a member of the Anglican Theological Colleges who intends to be ordained in the Church of England’.
My information is from https://www.theology.ox.ac.uk/sitefiles/oxtheo-24-3a.pdf.
More on the Catherine of Alexandria Prize on:
https://governance.admin.ox.ac.uk/legislation/st-catherine-of-alexandria-prize-fund.