Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Healthy transcendent sacred or unhealthy decadent decline
Lizzie Taylor Women and the Church Why I Signed the Petition to Say No to a Bishop of London who does not Ordain Women
David Lee Church Times Pews are a problem: get rid of them
Yes, there are lots of things you can do with a church filled with chairs, which you can’t do with a church filled with pews.
But you couldn’t fit 500+ people sitting on chairs into my church. Not enough room for that many chairs. Whereas, when folk sit close to each other in the pews, and extra spaces are filled with chairs, you currently can accommodate such numbers. And we do, several times per year.
We are an early Norman church with fixed pews (early Victorian after the previous Georgian box pews), which are not only comfortable but warm due to the panel heaters in their backs. Our village congregation has grown from 35 to 50 post pandemic, and we hold monthly children’s sessions in the church. We are one of a rare breed of warm and welcoming medieval churches. Fixed pews do not prevent our wheelchair users from coming every Sunday (and they don’t have to sit at the back), or hinder our coffee mornings (we have ‘pew tables’ that can be fixed across… Read more »
Great. The church gets full twice a year. Is this really good use of plant? So many churches cling to this “meagre” existence of “we are full at Christmas “. Make it comfortable for the members first and foremost.
Geoff, you’re making assumptions here. As well as Christmas, school services pack the building regularly. Removing the facility to pack in huge numbers of often small bodies would harm mission. Pew cushions make the pews more comfortable IMO than a good number of the ‘durable’ church chairs I’ve encountered in other places.
If having a comfortable chair does make the difference between worshipping or not, folk can choose to worship at a small service in the side chapel, which is so equipped.
Geoff, we do not consider our existence meagre. We are a well attended, well maintained, comfortable ancient village church, not just ‘plant’. Pews allow the most efficient heating and create a sense of shared space. We are not just “full at Christmas” we are stuffed full at Christmas (fire regs allowing). Neither (as is hinted at in other comments) are we conservative. All are welcome to come through our doors, and we are welcomed with in the community. We understand our community, our place in village history and the wider historical and architectural context, which draws in many visitors. We… Read more »
It’s interesting to note similar approaches from contributors here in a discussion about pews v chairs as in the more divisive discussions over sexuality. Some people seem to accept that there are arguments on both sides. Others come across as wholly convinced of the rightness of their opinions (or preferences) and unpleasantly dismissive of those who disagree with them or even with those who just see both sides of the argument. It’s obvious in the pews v chairs discussion that there are pros and cons on both sides. Interesting that those intolerant of others’ opinions are predominantly on the pro-chair… Read more »
Progressives need to be more convinced of their rectitude than conservatives to motivate change?
Not sure what you mean. Isn’t keeping pews ‘conservative’? But the aggressively ‘progressive’ on pews v chairs seem to be the aggressively ‘conservative’ on sexuality! I suppose one example that illustrates this seeming contradiction is that Nicky Gumbel famously emphasised the importance of informality for connecting with modern people (so chairs not pews) but that wing of the church actually teaches conservative views on substantive issues. What i was observing was a rather unpleasant dismissive (i.e. arrogant, intolerant, unloving) attitude sometimes coming from those in that camp, even on the seemingly contrasting subjects of church seating or sexuality. (BTW i… Read more »
To get rid of pews from a church the progressives have to be profoundly convinced that the pew-free future needs must be better than the status quo. To resist them the conservatives need only opine that the future might possibly be worse.
I think there is only one Cathedral that still has fixed pews and that is Derby. Certainly in almost all the churches and cathedrals ive worked in, having pews would have been a major hindrance to mission and ministry
Ely used to and unless things have changed recently, Hereford still does. St Mary Redcliffe, Bristol is a famous church with pews
My diocesan cathedral (Montreal) has pews. Victorian era, and sized for an average height several inches lower than that of people today, and very uncomfortable for people taller than 5’9″, although the canons’ stalls are even more uncomfortable. Several pews are broken and roped off. The cathedral administration would love to get rid of all the pews. Seating capacity is not an issue; the legal capacity under fire safety laws is only about 2/3 of the seating capacity of the pews, and for big celebrations they have overflowing seating with viewing screens in the hall, while there are plenty of… Read more »
David Lee appears to be unaware that removing pews from a C of E church requires a faculty. Equally, if permitted, the design and style of replacement chairs has to be approved. Law and Religion regularly reports Diocesan Chancellors’ rulings on these applications which can be opposed by individual parishioners, other interested parties and bodies like Historic England and the Victorian Society. It’s noteworthy that most cathedrals have gone down the route of chairs in place of pews, long ago in many cases, and they aren’t subject to the faculty jurisdiction anyway (however, I’m certain there is some other regulatory… Read more »
I was a curate in the early 90s, in an ancient church which still had box pews with doors on the ends. I commented that seemed unsuitable for the family services the church held every week, with well over 100 children. Not so, I was told – young children could be confined within the box pew and it was much easier for their parents to keep an eye on them.
Pews are certainly inflexible. Removing them creates a level space that allows the church building to be used throughout the week. The rows of chairs can be placed further apart to allow easier access. Chairs can be removed to create spaces for those in wheelchairs. Removing them creates a pews creates a flexible use space which could be used for community coffee morning, community breakfasts, exhibitions by local artists, lunch clubs for the elderly, etc etc without changing the style of worship. There are obstacles aplenty to removing them but the benefits are well worth it.
I really miss being able to use the kneeling bench that ran along the inside of the space between my pew and the one in front in the same way that I miss kneeling at the altar rail to receive communion, and before anyone comments about the elderly and difficulty kneeling, I would point out that I’m 86!
Kneelers provided, but not used.
Kneeling is much harder without pews – chairs can slide when people try to lean on them whilst getting up or down, or chairs can often be put too close together to make kneeling a possibility. It’s a shame that the fashion for flexibility makes it harder to people to adopt a posture of devotion.
In my experience linked chairs do not slide and it’s not always the case that chairs are placed too close together. The spacing of chairs unlike fixed pews is variable and a matter of choice. Rows of four or more need to be linked together.
Aren’t linked chairs just as “space-constraining” as pews?
No, because you can vary the space between rows.
However, fixed pews can be a major hindrance when it comes to using scaffolding towers or cherry pickers, or even ladders, to do fairly routine tasks like replacing lights.
That is one drawback. But there are chairs available with kneelers attached, and I have also seen individual kneeling cushions provided. In my previous parish, we had chairs in the side chapel, and separate kneeling benches the length of 3 chairs which could be places between rows of chairs.
Chairs can indeed be arranged in a variety of ways, assuming that you have sufficient volunteers to do the constant moving and rearranging.
Absolutely, and I am one at 72, but with plenty of other willing, servant hearted helpers.
A very wise former curate of ours once commented that entry to the church should not be by baptism but by a certificate in chair moving!
Our church (Baptist) was built in the late 1970s and has what might be considered the “happy medium” – moveable and comfortable pews. And they do get moved, quite often!
You are fortunate. Sadly our 18th century church came with fixed pews with raised heating pipes under them. I’m glad that you have a flexible use building. Sadly many Church of England parish churches have inflexible fixed pews.
My previous church was a large Victorian Grade 2 listed “barn” with fixed pews on slightly raised platforms. We wanted to create a circulating/display area at the back by removing some of the pews. This was quite a palaver as we had to obtain listed building consent, remove the pews, dismantle the platforms and floor, lower the brick supports for said floor and then reinstall a new level floor. It was worth doing but cost £10k about 15 years ago.
That’s certainly a lot of work. The church I attend also had to install a new floor. But that allowed underfloor heating to be installed.
Thanks Lizzie for this powerful explanation of why women must be priests,Archbishops etc and must be affirmed by our church .It s about time
I completely agree. Shocking though this is, we learned from the Sheffield debacle that a Statement of Needs needs to make this explicit or you can (and do) end up with someone who does not agree with the ordination of women.
the way this is phrased, by those pushing for a Statement of Needs that includes the possibility of having a bishop who won’t ordain women, is that staying open to this option is true ‘inclusion’
Imagine if a group demanded ‘inclusion’ of candidates who refused to ordain black or minority ethnic priests. No one would consider that inclusive.
I agree with Lizzie Taylor. A diocesan bishop has authority over a whole Diocese and therefore it is essential that she or he implements what the Church of England has decided. Failure to do that should be a serious disciplinary offence. Only in the Church of England would we even consider appointing a Diocesan Bishop who thinks women priests in his care are not actually priests ! I believe we need a light shining on how Church of England bishops are appointed. There seems to be an unrepresentative conservative bias resulting in an established church that is homophobic. A homophobic… Read more »
Not just London coming up, also Chi, which for over half a century has been ruled by succession of Ultra-High Church bishops – Kemp, Hind, Warner. There is also an Ultra as Lewes suffragan so Ultras would still be catered for if Chi diocesan was an ordainer. Consultation under way prior to statement of needs, but indications are that Ultras are well organised & pushing for continued succession.
I should think that continued succession in Chichester is highly unlikely.
Interesting. Why?
Not sure where your confidence comes from.
Chi has Ultra-High as Lewes, & Female but otherwise hardline Evangelical as Horsham. What I hear is that the long-term ConEvo-UltraHigh ‘entente’ in Chi remains strong, & is well-organised in pushing for statement of needs that leads to more of the same. By contrast those with remotely liberal leanings seem to have given up.
I would love to be proved wrong!
I can only dream of having pews – I have spent a very significant proportion of each working day of my 34 years in ministry in different places moving furniture and making what is moveable look neat. Our forebears were definitely onto something fixing everything in place!
Mr Lee thinks that PCCs should be overruled by centralising legislation. Parish churches belong to the parish not the diocese or the General Synod. If a PCC likes its pews then they should have the last word on the matter. GS have form when it comes to micromanaging parishes, most notably with their flower arrangements. This silly nonsense must be resisted at all costs.
I agree. Anyone near Saffron Walden interested in comparing two large churches, one packed with pews and one without any, could look in Saffron Walden church, then go to nearby Thaxted church, without any pews. The area of the floor space of these two large churches is almost identical. Both very fine churches but I know which I prefer.
As already pointed out, there are hurdles which Mr Lee appears to have overlooked. I think for temporary rearrangements an Archdeacon’s licence is needed. For anything permanent it’s a faculty requirement. Yes, in both cases the applicant would be the Parish and there can be potential objectors. Just as in any civil action claim, the ‘loser’ is usually ordered to pay the legal costs …
Yes, he says:
‘Since too many PCCs will never give up their pews, the General Synod should take a central decision to legislate to remove all pews and replace them with chairs.’
A great way to (further) disempower, alienate and demoralise the grass roots of the church. GS will conceivably run with it, on that basis.
I don’t think we are intended to take this seriously? The faculty legislation (not optional!) is lengthy and complex covering a vast range of situations and subjects – pews being just one. On refreshing my memory from the C of E faculties website I was amused to see that one of the photographs there was of rows of very handsome fixed pews!
I was lucky enough to spend the last ten years of my ordained ministry in a church that had gotten rid of its pews and adopted chairs. The advantages were numerous, especially when Covid came along and we could simply put just enough chairs in and space them appropriately. Our basement ‘parish hall’ was cold and dark, and sometimes when we wanted a larger ‘banquet’ – at my farewell from the parish, for instance – we simply brought tables upstairs and moved the chairs to sit around them. We could make room for wheelchairs, or space the rows out a… Read more »
When we removed some (but not most) of our pews, two people left. Despite articles in the church magazine, a questionnaire circulated to every member of the congregation, endless discussions at congregational meetings (which they never attended), and verbal announcements, they “didn’t know” that the pews were being removed and so were taken aback to arrive one Sunday and find that “their” pew had gone.
What did they leave? Where did they go?
I once regularly took an elderly lady to church. She had lost a son many years prior, and there was a small plaque on the back of one of the chairs. After every service she would wander around looking for that chair. Woe betide if it had been on a pew that was removed.
But chairs can be replaced, and probably need to be far sooner than pews are removed. At one of the churches where I played there was a chair with a memorial plaque to my grandfather (I didn’t know him: he died during WW II). Not so long ago, the church announced that all the chairs were to be replaced and before disposal all memorial plaques would be carefully removed from them and retained in the church.
yes, I wasn’t making any comment on chairs v. pews, I don’t care either way. i was more making a comment on people’s behaviours.
They never came back to our church (or, to my knowledge, any church). When a Deacon went to visit them, she was sent away with a flea in her ear.
First officer: “Captain! We estimate we have about two hours left.”
Captain: ” Perhaps we should rearrange the deck chairs, move them aft?”
A PCC has gone much further and voted to remove its 15th century rood screen from the chancel. The faculty process is so opaque that only the PCC seems to be fully in the know. I contacted the diocese for information, basic stuff like, has an application been submitted and I was given the brush-off. How can anyone object about the removal if they can’t get any information about the faculty.
What you describe will almost certainly involve consultation with outside bodies such as Historic England (and others) before the faculty application is submitted. It may not yet have reached that stage. It can’t proceed as an online application.
Without necessarily becoming a formal ‘party opponent’ you could write to the Diocesan Chancellor expressing your concerns about this proposal. Ultimately it will be for the Chancellor to decide the matter.
An afterthought. As I suggested, it’s possible that the faculty application hasn’t been filed yet. Rather like planning applications, once when has been made a notice must be publicly displayed on site, technically on the church door or, more commonly in my experience, in the church porch. If none is displayed that ought to mean that no application has yet been made. No harm, however, in writing to the Chacellor about what is afoot.
Pews or chairs seems be an important issue in CofE. Rearranging deck chairs on Titanic?
Perhaps, but having a flexible space has allowed us to hold many more community events, to create a more welcoming and more comfortable space for worship. Whatever the seating arrangements what is crucial is that the gospel of repentance and faith in the Risen Christ is preached, and lived out.
This was started by David Lee’s CT article making a bald statement to “get rid of” pews. TA responses have (mostly) been more sensible, more accurate and more to the point. It’s just as well for people to know that if they go down Mr Lee’s suggested route without a faculty they will incur the wrath of the Diocesan Chancellor – and can be ordered to pay costs! It’s happened in recent cases.
28 comments about pews. 6 comments about the possible appointment of a Bishop of London who does not recognise womens’ ordination. Does this say something about the C of E?
That parishes are more important than bishops? To most people, most of the time.
Women, the majority of the population, are more important than parishes.
Pews seem more important than (women and bishops)
But as pews decrease in number, bishops are increasing. Why, for example, does the diocese of Coventry need an Acting Diocesan? There’s no vacancy.
I think you may be reading something that has been mis-reported in the Church Times. Jackie Searle is an Assistant Bishop in the Diocese of Coventry, but has just taken on the role of Acting Diocesan of Derby. Someone in the news room of the Church Times appears to have got that mixed up!
Not so much the pews themselves but the suggestion that an over weening GS might overrule parishes. People have so little to do with the bishop that these squabbles don’t appear on their radar.
Neither ‘women’, ‘parishes’ nor ‘pews’ are mutually exclusive concerns, surely?
This is not the first rodeo for non-ordaining bishops on TA. Some people may feel they have said everything they have to say on the subject and do not want to repeat themselves.
It is the first discussion on pews versus moveable chairs I can remember. It is a subject that provokes strong views.
Since there is only one diocesan bishop who doesn’t ordain women I imagine it is to allow +Blackburn to be considered for the post.
Or a suffragan / area bishop? Sarah was not a diocesan before her appointment.
Of course. But how many suffragan/ area bishops who don’t ordain women are likely to be in the frame? The discussion was about the London Diocesan Statement of Needs, rather different from that of Southwark
But they could appoint from among the suffragans, or even someone who hasn’t previously been a bishop.