Thinking Anglicans

Opinion – 6 November 2021

Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Living in Love and Faith in crisis: the latest manifestation of abuse in the Church
and The abusive toxic culture produced by the evangelical doctrine of penal substitution

Trevor Wyatt ViaMedia.News On Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali’s Move to Rome…

Rob Dyer Ministry Architects They’re Not Coming Back

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Clare Amos
Clare Amos
27 days ago

I have already written this on a facebook page but I think the point I am making is of sufficient gravity that it bears repeating. I think Trevor Wyatt’s article on Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali’s move to ‘Rome’ is well written. There is one thing however that he does not touch upon which I feel needs to be said quite openly. I suspect that Bp Michael NA is the only C of E bishop who has crossed the Tiber (become a Roman Catholic) who has actually in the past ordained women as priests which I am virtually sure he did as… Read more »

Kate
Kate
Reply to  Clare Amos
27 days ago

He has joined a church which thinks nobody he ordained was validly ordained. I don’t think women are more affected than men in this case.

FrDavidH
FrDavidH
Reply to  Clare Amos
27 days ago

Former ‘Bishop’ Nazir-Ali has joined a Church which believes it is impossible for men to be priests in the Anglican tradition. Our orders have been declared “null and void” which is why he has been re-ordained. Why single out women? I fear his search for certainty of belief is in vain. For instance, hundreds of RC priests in Germany have blessed same-sex unions. President Biden’s support for abortion defies the Pope he recently visited. The Irish Church is in free-fall. The French Church is reeling with sex abuse revelations. World-wide ‘war’ between Roman Catholics make minor skirmishes between Anglicans look… Read more »

Last edited 27 days ago by FrDavidH
James Pratt
James Pratt
Reply to  FrDavidH
24 days ago

Not only did Biden visit the Pope, Francis called him “a good Catholic”, in a very direct rebuke to conservative American bishops calling for Biden to be denied communion.

Paul
Paul
Reply to  Clare Amos
27 days ago

He definitely did ordain women and publicly defended the practice. I think he has been asked your questiom, but amidst the thousands of words published about his exit, I can’t find the article. My impression is that the non-ordination of women was off putting for him, but the toleration of sexual immorality in the CofE made it impossible for him to stay in the CofE. He has been quite explicit that he does not think the RC church is perfect. He thinks the Ordinariate is highly imperfect, but the least worst option. He is clearly heart broken that he feels… Read more »

FrDavidH
FrDavidH
Reply to  Paul
27 days ago

The RC Church blessed the third marriage of the Prime Minister and his present wife while she was pregnant with his possibly seventh child. Can you please point out where the CofE compares in its toleration of sexual immorality?

Fr Dean
Fr Dean
Reply to  FrDavidH
25 days ago

Fr David thank you for this most apposite comment. The Church of Rome can be as politically expedient as any other institution. I hope Michael Nazir-Ali has read Frederic Martel’s book about the Vatican’s hypocrisy where gay sexuality is concerned.

Paul
Paul
Reply to  FrDavidH
25 days ago

Isn’t the point that they don’t recognise any of his previous marriages? To quote Pete Whitehead from the Theos thinktank: “Put simply (though few things in Canon Law are really that simple) the Church is bound by ‘canonical form’ – the conditions required for marriages to be considered valid. Since neither of his previous two marriages had correct canonical form – a Priest was not present, and they were not conducted within the Catholic Church, so are not valid under canon law – they do not stop him from marrying now. He isn’t remarrying; he was simply never properly married.”… Read more »

FrDavidH
FrDavidH
Reply to  Paul
25 days ago

I am aware of the ridiculous hoops through which the RC Church jumps to maintain Canon Law, as I’m sure Johnson’s six illegitimate children are also conscious their parents were never married. What does that make them? The Johnsons were married by a former Anglican priest who sadly participated in this nonsensical casuistry.

Barrie McKenzie
Barrie McKenzie
Reply to  FrDavidH
22 days ago

Indeed, and who as an Anglican priest would never have dreamed of conducting the wedding. The stench of hypocrisy is overwhelming.

Jo B
Jo B
Reply to  Paul
25 days ago

Nazir-Ali was not widely respected among Anglicans of my acquaintance, beyond the minimum of respect due to everyone. As to why he feels drawn to the RCC, I thought that was obvious from his own words – he doesn’t think the CofE has been vocal enough in its homophobia. To my mind his departure is a relief rather than a disappointment. Would that others of that ilk would follow, and the sooner the better.

Susannah Clark
Reply to  Jo B
24 days ago

“others of that ilk”… Care to define that, Jo? At what point does a person fall into that “ilk” category? Membership of GAFCON? Being vocal in opposition to gay sexuality? Privately believing God disapproves of gay sex? How far along the spectrum do you wish people would leave the Church of England? I probably have a similar impression to you about the way Michael has championed the GAFCON line. I’ve been under-impressed to say the least. Just my personal view. I don’t know the guy face to face. Given the Church of England is divided more or less half and… Read more »

Jo B
Jo B
Reply to  Susannah Clark
24 days ago

I thought I did define that group – those who demand that the CofE should be more vocally homophobic than it is (and, unsaid but I would think obvious, aren’t willing to change their minds). What someone believes in the privacy of their own head is up to them. So long as LGBT folk can walk into any parish church in England and be welcomed, get married, bring their children to baptism and play a full and active role within the church, and can listen to God’s call to the priesthood without having to sign up to ludicrous, invasive and… Read more »

Jo B
Jo B
Reply to  Paul
27 days ago

I thought the RCC had a far bigger problem with sexual abuse, or more specifically covering it up and failing to make reparation to victims, than even the CofE.

If you mean he thinks it’s more important to be institutionally homophobic than not be institutionally misogynist then say so.

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Clare Amos
27 days ago

He appointed the first woman Archdeacon in the Church of England, Judith Rose. She served on the CNC which nominated ++ Rowan for Canterbury.

Ingrid
Ingrid
Reply to  Clare Amos
27 days ago

Is it that much of a problem? The Church he has joined believes that all the Orders he conferred, whether on men or women, are invalid, so that question arises as much for the male priests he ordained, doesn’t it? In any case I’d stretch a point from the Donatist controversies and say that if a minister later changes their mind about the validity of the Sacraments they ministered, it doesn’t affect the validity of those Sacraments. Otherwise we’d be declaring invalid marriages, Eucharists and confessions carried out by any priest who later left the church, for instance.

Susan Suddaby
Susan Suddaby
Reply to  Clare Amos
26 days ago

Thank you Clare. I was priested by Bishop Michael in 1997, and I feel a great sadness at what seems to be a rejection of that action. I think it is my personal relationship to this which makes it so difficult, although I should add that I have no concern that my ordination is not valid, just to preempt any comment upon that.

FrDavidH
FrDavidH
Reply to  Susan Suddaby
25 days ago

Presumably the men ordained with you will feel exactly the same.

Susan Suddaby
Susan Suddaby
Reply to  FrDavidH
25 days ago

They may. For many women at that time the process to ordination was far slower than for men, the way obstructive and at times insulting. So to have a bishop being supportive was for me remarkable. But I had started the process in a diocese led by Bishop Eric Kemp. I can only comment upon my own pain.

Barrie McKenzie
Barrie McKenzie
Reply to  Susan Suddaby
22 days ago

I’m a little tired of everyone weaponising their pain. We all bear pain over various different issues within the Church of England. Let’s not try to outdo each other.

Clare Amos
Clare Amos
Reply to  Susan Suddaby
25 days ago

Thank you Susan. You have articulated well and personally the point I was trying to make – that somehow for the women whom Michael Nazir-Ali ordained his recent action (including frankly the fact that he himself was so speedily re-ordained in the Roman Catholic Church) cannot but help feel like a rejection. Whatever the legalities may be re the men ordained by MNA I suspect it doesn’t ‘feel’ that in the same way.

David Keen
David Keen
27 days ago

Perhaps Colin Coward could explain why abuse has been endemic in the RC church, and the C of E itself (IICSA noted 20 examples of sexual abuse of children in Chichester Diocese alone in the preceding 50 years). What is the link between catholic theology and abuse? Or traditional Anglicanism? So far only Smyth and Jonathan Fletcher have been identified as abusers within the conservative evangelical subculture. Colin Cowards’ attempt to make the link between this behaviour, and the theological tradition they represent, fails to explain why, grimly, abuse is not confined to conservative evangelicals. If the main evidence is… Read more »

Peter Spychal
Peter Spychal
Reply to  David Keen
26 days ago

Hi David, I do pray for all of those abused in all parts of the church, but I think here the focus is on a specific theological lineage which is sadly at fault for the harms faced by LGBTI people in the Church of England. My thoughts on what Colin says are as follows:  Justice for LGBTI people is important, if the church denies them justice, it hurts them. Personally I feel that I am bleeding because of this situation. Precursors to LLF blocked and delayed justice. As evidenced by the recent GS paper, this is a cycle that is… Read more »

Colin Coward
Reply to  David Keen
26 days ago

David Keen asks me to explain why abuse has been endemic in the RC church and the CofE. I can’t do adequately do that in the space allowed here, but David is, of course, naming a reality – abuse is endemic in Christianity. I can think of several reasons why this should be so. Christianity has an unhealthy attitude to diverse sexualities and sexual activities. It has required gay men to suppress their sexuality and sexual desires and denied us the freedom to live openly in relationship. The result has been a very unhealthy sub-culture in Anglo-Catholic circles, especially among… Read more »

RogerB
RogerB
Reply to  Colin Coward
26 days ago

In the Nicene Creed we say: “For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate”
‘High’ churches may have vivid depictions of Jesus bleeding for us, Calvinistic ones may talk about ‘penal substitution’, but it is the same thing.
The one thing it can not possibly, logically, lead to is ‘punishment’ meted out by one Christian on another.
I fear for those who have engaged in these practices as I believe they may be the people Jesus talks about in Matthew 18:6.

Nigel
Nigel
Reply to  Colin Coward
26 days ago

Nicky Gumbel – who is generally disliked by conservative evangelicals, by the way – did not owe his faith to Iwerne. A couple of Google searches could have told you that. What other factual inaccuracies/low quality conclusions are there in your pieces?

Last edited 26 days ago by Nigel
David Keen
David Keen
Reply to  Colin Coward
26 days ago

Thankyou Colin for responding. As with the Chris Brain comment below (who started as a charismatic evangelical, then swerved into the teachings of Matthew Fox and ‘creation spirituality’), the issue is maybe not the doctrines themselves, but the way they are manipulated by broken people with power and influence, regardless of tradition.

Mark Bennet
Mark Bennet
Reply to  David Keen
26 days ago

It is simply untrue that “only Smyth and Jonathan Fletcher have been identified as abusers within the conservative evangelical subculture” – their names have been prominently advertised, but there have been others, and a fair amount of the abuse of women which has been reported comes from within that subculture, though the abusers are not always identified. Chris Brain of the Nine O’Clock Service started as an evangelical, for example, though the theology morphed into something else – but then doesn’t it always: and who would say that Peter Ball’s actual theology was truly Catholic? Also, within Chichester, the evangelical… Read more »

Nigel
Nigel
Reply to  Mark Bennet
26 days ago

Chris Brain, conservative evangelical? Nonsense.

Mark Bennet
Mark Bennet
Reply to  Nigel
26 days ago

Not if you read his history – unless you mean he never went to an approved public school – the church base from which he built his own things was (to those of us who are outside observers) CE … and if not, bear in mind that I used this as an example. There are others … and my point stands. It is so easy to disown the people who fail, and so hard to own the culture which made it possible. Just so you know, within my own history, and in one role, I had to make two safeguarding… Read more »

Last edited 26 days ago by Mark Bennet
Jonathan Jamal
Jonathan Jamal
27 days ago

When I was preparing to be received into Full Communion with the Catholic Church in 2004, and was living then in Perth in Scotland and staying at the Redemptorist Monastery in Perth, St Mary’s Monastery at Kinnoull, the Priest who was preparing me for reception the then Parish Priest of St John the Baptist Catholic Parish Church in Melville Street in Perth, the late Monsignor Charles Hendry said to me “Jonathan you are not coming into a perfect Church, there are things that may annoy or horrify you, if you are prepared to accept these, by all means come in”… Read more »

Richard
Richard
27 days ago

I think enough has been said in all corners of the Anglican blogosphere regarding Dr. Nazir-Ali’s journey to Rome. I have no doubt that it was a very considered decision and that no amount of chit-chat from betrayed and angry Anglicans is going to change his mind. I wish him well.

FrDavidH
FrDavidH
Reply to  Richard
26 days ago

I don’t believe any Anglican feels angry or betrayed by the departure of homophobes who feel at home elsewhere. Although the RC priesthood is predominantly ‘gay’, it is incomprehensible why a large number of gay Anglican clergy joined the RC Church to escape women, when their new denomination regards them as “intrinsically disordered”.

Richard
Richard
Reply to  FrDavidH
25 days ago

It is the orthodox Anglicans (GAFCON) who are saying they feel angry and betrayed. They insist that they are the one true church, and Dr. Nazir-Ali has turned their back on them and the Word of God written.

FrDavidH
FrDavidH
Reply to  Richard
25 days ago

Gafcon are not orthodox Anglicans. They are extremists who don’t understand Anglicanism. They think themselves to be more “infallible” than the Pope.

Jonathan Jamal
Jonathan Jamal
26 days ago

I think having been an Anglican in the past and now a Catholic of the Roman Rite, I can understand where Anglicans are coming from when they use the language of betrayal about an Anglican who moves into full communion with the Catholic Church. Many years ago when my late mentor Father Roland Walls who trained me in the Monastic life at Roslin became a Catholic in 1981 and was subsequently ordained as a Priest after 45 years of Anglican ministry he received a letter from the then Bishop of Moray, Ross and Caithness, the late Bishop George Sessford in… Read more »

Richard
Richard
Reply to  Jonathan Jamal
26 days ago

Perhaps it’s because the Bishop of Rome is the supreme pontiff of the Catholic Church.

T Pott
T Pott
Reply to  Jonathan Jamal
26 days ago

As an Anglican Mr Nazir-Ali was already a member of the Catholic Church as understood by us. What he has joined is not the Catholic Church at all, it is one part of it, consisting, I can well suppose, of 19 rites. Whatever one calls this conglomerate of 19 rites it should not be the Catholic church. The word catholic is used in so many ways. To refer to the 19-rite comglomeratate as the catholic church is to infer that Anglicans are not part of the Catholic church.Would it not be more accurate to say he has become a Papist?… Read more »

Last edited 26 days ago by T Pott
Kate
Kate
26 days ago

Just to highlight for those who (like me) didn’t notice – there are TWO separate links for Colin Coward articles.

Tim Chesterton
26 days ago

That’s a thought-provoking article by Rob Dyer.

Interested Observer
Interested Observer
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
26 days ago

It is, although it’s a bromide more to an American than a British fantasy. I think in the UK we are a generation past the idea that people will return to church as “adults”. The generation that stopped going to church is not the generation currently having children and yet not returning, rather it is empty nesting or caring for its grandchildren and not returning. American evangelical churches have been bemoaning the loss of twenty year olds for the past couple of decades and constructing “ah yes, but tomorrow” reasons as to why they are certain to return. Britain is… Read more »

Stanley Monkhouse
Reply to  Interested Observer
26 days ago

Absolutely right IO. I still hear clergy, especially NSMs, telling me that all will be well because the over 50s will drift back. They can’t – or – won’t see that people can’t drift back because they never attended in the first place, and that given the options available for leisure activities, church doesn’t score very highly. It was a sparklingly intelligent and utterly grounded Reader who told me over 20 years ago that her neighbour, when learning that my friend went to church, said “Oh, that’s what you do on a Sunday: we go hiking”.

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Interested Observer
26 days ago

‘It is, although it’s a bromide more to an American than a British fantasy.’

I’m neither American nor British, but I found it very relevant. Mind you, I wasn’t thinking about the wistful desire that the kids come back after they have kids etc. etc. I was thinking of the fact that’s becoming very plain to those of us who have restarted on-site worship after eighteen months of pretty well only using online – the fact that it is going to be a long and slow process, more akin to starting a new church than continuing an existing one.

Interested Observer
Interested Observer
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
25 days ago

There is solid academic work that people do things out of habit, even though better alternatives exist, until they are forced to reconsider. The classic paper is summarised here (the paper is well worth reading, too). Working with anonymised data from the Oystercard system, the authors found that when there is a tube strike which closes some lines, people are forced to consider alternatives to their usual route to work. Some of those new routes are better (the dataset allowed this comparison to be made) than the original, and when the strike is over some people stick to their new… Read more »

Stanley Monkhouse
26 days ago

Dyer. Pertinent and timely. The church is supremely good at telling people things that are simply not true. Look at official communiques – worthy of Pravda in Soviet times. Look at church and diocesan websites; all is noble, just, pure, loveable, gracious, delightful and admirable. There is not a cloud in the sky, there will be clergy in abundance and the sun will never set. If you actually talk to church people, especially wardens and parish officers, they will scratch their heads and tell you a different story, and they might express what Froghole describes as “visceral” feelings towards hierarchs.… Read more »

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Stanley Monkhouse
26 days ago

Leaders in any organisation feel they have to be upbeat and positive. This can jar with the poor bloody infantry. I did notice a change in tone from Julian Henderson, Bishop of Blackburn, a few years ago. He pointed out that some churches in his diocese ram the risk of becoming as derelict as some of the cotton mills in the diocese. The last Bishop of St Germans issued a similarly blunt message about the Diocese of Truro. I love the lines of John Newton:- Fading is the worldling’s pleasure All his boasted pomp and show Solid joys and lasting… Read more »

Michael H.
Michael H.
Reply to  Stanley Monkhouse
25 days ago

Dyer is indeed pertinent and timely. The Church of England’s biggest self delusion, in my opinion and experience, is that ‘clicks’ or ‘hits’ on Facebook worship equalled a surge in people worshipping and that when churches reopened, there would be a surge of people attending public worship. The delusion is two fold. Hundreds or thousands of clicks or hits is meaningless, although boasted about. The only number that matters is those who are online all the way through in real time, not hose who click for ten seconds days later. And secondly, I’ve done quite a bit of statistical work… Read more »

Stanley Monkhouse
Reply to  Michael H.
24 days ago

Michael, your long running story is very moving and sad. I send you my sympathy.  I got myself into trouble at the start of this nonsense by saying that I felt streamed services were principally about boosting the egos of the clergy involved and helping them to think that they were doing something – anything – rather than nothing. I have not changed my view. Some such services from suburban vicarage gardens were extraordinarily egocentric: “look at me, look at me, look at me”. In contrast, my mate’s church on a Hertfordshire estate, by no means posh, never stopped public worship… Read more »

Froghole
Froghole
Reply to  Michael H.
24 days ago

I have attended services in about 14 dioceses since the last lockdown. Provision has become decreasingly patchy, but there are still a number of places where there is no worship. For instance, in the Vale of Belvoir, services recommenced in Bottesford several months ago (there was a well-attended All Souls service there the Sunday before last) but nothing has re-started in Barkestone, Muston, Plungar (still without its lead) and Redmile, which is in contrast to almost everywhere else in the Framland deanery (and Leicester diocese). In fairness this is because Bottesford is still in interregnum. In many places, marginal churches… Read more »

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
Reply to  Michael H.
23 days ago

You are so right, Michael. The only people who may legitimately consider themselves to be taking part online in an act of worship are those watching in real time. Everyone else is just watching something which happened earlier, as a diversion or an entertainment. And yet in my church, and doubtless many others, the meaningless figures for clicks or hits have been used to justify great expenditure for equipment to make the streaming more professional and permanent, and the church is festooned with equipment and wiring, greatly detracting from the experience of in-person worship, and all done without any hint… Read more »

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Malcolm Dixon
22 days ago

‘but its continuance is a snare and a delusion which turns worship into optional entertainment’ There are people on this website who are housebound because of age or physical disability of one kind or another, who would find that remark to be very insensitive. Before Covid, every week I would post the text of my sermon on the church website after the service. I have been told many times by people who have started to attend our church that they had been reading my sermons for several weeks before they decided to try us out in person. I’ll be interested… Read more »

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
22 days ago

Thank you, Tim (and Jo) for your corrective comments. I acknowledge that I was too sweeping in my comments and I apologise sincerely to anyone who has been offended. I should at least have added ‘in my view’, rather than making a sweeping generalisation. I recognise that there still are people unable or unwilling to attend church and, for them, streaming will continue to be of benefit. But, in my view again, I fear that there is a risk that others, who are perfectly able to attend church, may just turn to the streaming as an easier option. Better than… Read more »

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Malcolm Dixon
21 days ago

Email from one of my parishioners tonight:

‘Hi Tim,

‘We have three grandkids here from Thursday through Sunday. As two of them attend public school and are not old enough for vaccinations we have decided to watch from home this coming Sunday.’

Tim Chesterton
Reply to  Malcolm Dixon
21 days ago

Some churches do prerecorded services for the simple reason that the Wifi in the church is unreliable. A prerecorded service can be created in the church or somewhere else without the user of Wifi, then taken home where the signal is better and uploaded to YouTube or Facebook. Once loaded up, people can watch it from home with little trouble. At St. Margaret’s Edmonton (Canada), we tried live streaming from our church for about three months in 2020; the Wifi was bad and the stream was very jerky and often got stuck. Nor was there any immediate prospect of the… Read more »

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
Reply to  Tim Chesterton
20 days ago

Thanks, Tim, for your further examples of how streaming is working well for you. May it continue to be a blessing for you and your parish.

Jo B
Jo B
Reply to  Malcolm Dixon
22 days ago

We continue to stream because we have folk who are unable to attend in person due to ill-health, and it enables them to continue to be part of the worshipping community. I can assure you that no-one would be watching for the purposes of entertainment. During lockdown I was very glad to be able to use the pre-recorded Eucharists supplied by the Scottish Episcopal Church, and know that while they were recorded they were released at a specific time when I could be sure of sharing that worship with hundreds of others across the province. I do not think that… Read more »

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
26 days ago

Trevor Wyatt focuses on former bishop Michael Nazir-Ali’s need for an authoritative magisterium Roman style as a “key reason” for his move. Having considered the explanations Nazir-Ali has given in the press (see below) I would suggest his change in ecclesiastical institutions has a lot to do with the guy’s socio-political views. It does not look like he had a sudden epiphany that galvanized his support for say, the doctrines of the immaculate conception or the assumption. These kinds of decisions are often a matter of wanting more of this and less of that. As an Anglican who lives in… Read more »

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
Reply to  Rod Gillis
26 days ago

If that is what he thinks I wonder what former bishop Michael Nazir Ali thinks of Pope Francis, the head of his new church, who seems to be preaching that Michael NA left the CofE to escape.

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
Reply to  Simon Dawson
26 days ago

Simon, is there a credible media source putting Pope Francis on record in that regard?

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
Reply to  Rod Gillis
25 days ago

I think it is an overall direction of travel, Rod, rather than specific quotable texts. Although I minister in the Church of England I subscribe The Tablet magazine rather than Church Times because the worldwide coverage is better, it is more interesting in its general coverage of spirituality, and it gives an interesting lens through which to view the activities of the Anglican church. And Thinking Anglicans keeps me informed of CofE news for free. The impression I get from The Tablet is that Pope Francis is vigorously leading his church in a progressive direction. There are the Encyclicals Fratelli… Read more »

Last edited 25 days ago by Simon Dawson
Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
Reply to  Simon Dawson
25 days ago

I read The Tablet as well. I read the article by Madoc Cairns. The National Catholic Reporter in the U.S. also provides a lot of coverage from a progressive point of view. The coverage is global; but focuses particularly on the American R.C. church. However, I do not see anywhere a credible reporting of comments by Pope Francis on the matter. Nazir-Ali is on record with regard to the frustration and disappointment which led him to depart Anglicanism. He has flagged specific controversial political issues as part of his rationale. So, this will increase the political jibber jabber on all… Read more »

Interested Observer
Interested Observer
Reply to  Rod Gillis
24 days ago

I thought it telling that in his list of political issues, the only one to get quotation marks (presumably, scare quotes) was climate change. Just what the world needs: more climate change denial. Nazir-Ali is basically playing “get the kids off my lawn” conservatism, and churches which get embroiled in that are going to be dead when their currently boomer adherents die: there is _absolutely_ no appetite for those sort of culture wars amongst any significant number of millennials.

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
Reply to  Interested Observer
24 days ago

Yes the scare quotes around ‘climate change’ are intriguing. Appears Michael Nazir- Ali wrote it that way himself. The piece in the Daily Mail, which most here folks have likely seen (link), was written by Michael Nazir-Ali. I’m wondering if he is on record anywhere as addressing global warming/climate change?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10101671/Former-Bishop-Rochester-Dr-Michael-Nazir-Ali-explains-defection-CofE-Catholic-church.html

FrDavid H
FrDavid H
Reply to  Rod Gillis
24 days ago

It is odd when facing the biggest crisis humanity has ever faced, Nazir-Ali disappears into the black hole which is the ordinariate, never to be heard of again.

Kate
Kate
Reply to  Rod Gillis
26 days ago

I agree. My impression of people crossing the Tiber generally is that they are moving to escape something they dislike rather than necessarily being fans of the complete Roman Catholic experience. (That some of them are married only adds to the impression.)

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
Reply to  Kate
26 days ago

As a person who was R.C. and became an Anglican ( I was 20 at the time), these things are a mixed bag. As Neil Young sings, “They give you this, but you pay for that…”. Escape is not a bad word. I wanted to escape a framework where the hierarchy was determined to legislate on what the faithful could and could not do on the most intimate of personal levels. I wouldn’t say it was all about the ‘complete’, in this case Anglican, ‘experience’. Changing churches can be a lot like immigration. You can assent to the broad sweep… Read more »

William
William
Reply to  Kate
25 days ago

How on earth does ‘being married’ add to your impression of people crossing the Tiber not buying into the whole Catholic experience?

Simon Dawson
Simon Dawson
Reply to  William
25 days ago

I wonder if Kate’s comments refer to those married ordained Anglican priests who want to maintain their ordained status in their new church without taking on the traditional requirements of celibacy. It could be argued that a full commitment to the church requires either giving up aspects of the marriage and remaining ordained, or keeping the marriage and reverting to lay status.

Last edited 25 days ago by Simon Dawson
Ian
Ian
Reply to  Simon Dawson
23 days ago

It is sometimes helpful to check with those it effects. Fr Ed Tomlinson points out in his blog that married anglican priests are granted a dispensation from clerical celibacy for the lifetime of their marriage.

FrDavidH
FrDavidH
Reply to  Ian
23 days ago

It is the same with widowed laymen who decide to become RC priests. They qualify for ordination because they are fortunate enough to have a spouse who has conveniently died.

FrDavidH
FrDavidH
Reply to  William
25 days ago

The dearth of vocations to the RC priesthood of heterosexual men shows how very few are prepared to undertake ‘the whole Catholic experience’ of celibacy. Married clergy joining the Ordinariate are obviously not entering fully into the experience of a Church where clergy sex is forbidden.

Last edited 25 days ago by FrDavidH
Kate
Kate
Reply to  FrDavidH
25 days ago

Quite

Rod Gillis
Rod Gillis
Reply to  Kate
24 days ago

A great number of years ago here on the east coast of Canada, we had several Eastern Rite seminarians who were scheduled to be married, and then ordained priests shortly after. At the last minute, word came from Rome that if they married, they could not be ordained. The rationale: that while they would be serving Eastern Rite Catholic parishes, they would be doing so in a Latin Rite area, and this would cause ‘confusion’ on the part of R.C. faithful. The Eastern Rite priest here at that time told me himself that their bishop should have ordained them after… Read more »

Father David
Father David
25 days ago

I wonder if, now having swum the Tiber, Michael Nazir Ali and Jonathan Goodall will be given the honorary title Monsignor? Previous Anglican bishops who have joined the Ordinariate have set a precedent in this respect but I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that Pope Francis isn’t quite as keen on the Ordinariate as his predecessor Benedict XVI, who set it up in the first place, probably expecting more to enlist than those who actually did. Just a thought.

dr.primrose
dr.primrose
25 days ago

Conversions of Anglican bishops to the RC Church do not necessarily last forever. . There is the case of TEC bishop Clarence Pope, who retired as bishop of Fort Worth (TX) in early 1995 and then converted to the RC Church. Later that year, he reconverted back to TEC, apparently because he realized he would have to give up his episcopal orders. He reportedly flirted with re-re-converting back to the RC Church in 1998 but didn’t ultimately didn’t do so and came back to TEC. He eventually re-re-re-converted back to the RC Church in 2007. Nonetheless, after he died in… Read more »

Malcolm Dixon
Malcolm Dixon
24 days ago

Throughout Michael Nazir-Ali’s 15 years as Bishop of Rochester, I was attending a traditionalist Anglo-Catholic parish in the diocese, although not supporting the anti women priest agenda. At the start, he seemed very much an ally in supporting women priests but took care to visit the traditionalist parishes for non-eucharistic services, particularly Stations of the Cross during Lent. The traditionalist clergy from the area who attended these events seemed to be holding him at arm’s length since, although he was their Ordinary, they were enjoying Extended Episcopal Care from a ‘flying bishop’. (And it was Extended Episcopal Care then, not… Read more »

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